[jonnyc]

I'm building a .45 ACP carbine on an Enfield action. I already load the caliber for my 1911 and 1917, but I'd like to take advantage of the bolt-action and longer barrel, if possible. Has anyone experimented with different powders and bullets to get a carbine load more effective than factory standard or +P pistol loads?

[Marlin 45 carbine]

have you looked any .45 Super data? you may need the brass for, I'm not familiar with that reciever.

[jonnyc]

Thanks.

[JDGray]

Experiment with slower powders, that will take advantage of the longer barrel. HS6, Longshot, Blue Dot, #7, would be some good ones:)

[wcwhitey]

What powders do you use now. I am not familiar with any published data using slower powders like 2400 but there are medium/fast powders out there that should give better velocity than fast powders likes Bullseye. Unique is slower than Bullseye and might be worth a try in this case and I am sure there are others. You can also look into heavier bullets allowing you to put a bigger slugs downrange with more authority but still staying subsonic. Either way you will still have to stay within the pressure maximums of the brass itself to avoid having problems. Bill

[jonnyc]

I currently use Bullseye.
I'm thinking about trying some of the warmer pistol powder loads with a 230 grainer. If I'm not satisfied with that, I might get some .45 Super brass and work my way up a bit. At the end of the day, I want a nice authoritative, accurate, 100(+)yard round.
Thanks.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

the .45super loads I have seen used unique or power pistol in .45 super brass. I have shot powerpistol loads in my 625 but would not shoot them in my Marlin Camp .45.

[parisite]

I don't think there would be enough case volume to take advantage of 2400 in a 45acp case.

I think a powder like Power Pistol or Universal would be the way to go.

[357mag357]

Jonnyc,

When you get everything completed would you please post some data from the carbine? I am curious to see how much faster the 45acp would be from the longer barrel. Thanks.

[jjohnson]

Yeah, I have one of those too.

Do you want to have it chambered for something longer, maybe? Or do you want to keep it .45 ACP? Are you building a single shot or something kind of like the deLisle carbine with a standart M1911 mag?

I just feed mine the hotter loads that are still SAAMI spec for .45ACP and +p.

I've tinkered with the idea of loading it with max powder, but I'm not finding any good powders to get much good out of my long barrel. I ran a quick check with QuickLoad. Blue Dot and 2400 both pretty much finish their burn in about five inches, but burn only about 70% by the time the bullet's left the barrel.

Mind you - you can certainly push the Enfield action a long way past what would be safe in your M1917s.... but you'd be inviting real disaster if you got those loads mixed up. :eek: You could mitigate that problem by segregating your ammo - I save my nickel cases, for example, for loads made for my Enfield. I just haven't found a combo that would take much advantage of the longer barrel. Ramshot Enforcer gets you some benefit - you can go a bit over 13 grains and still get about 1300 fps with a 230 grain bullet without going past the SAAMI limit. That still gives you only about 75% powder burned. The .45ACP just doesn't get a lot of good from the longer barrel.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

'about 1300 fps' from the rifle bbl vs. 830 fps from a 1911 5" bbl is quite a boost in fps.
for my Camp Carbine Marlin I load 185gr and some 200 gr slugs at +P data.
the Marlin blow-back action would not handle the Super data loads for long before something broke.

[Richard Bumpus]

200 grain SWC loads that do about 800 fps out of my 5'' Colt 70 Series Government model do about 1000fps out of my 14" Contender barrel.

[jonnyc]

I'm using a No.4 action/kit that uses 1911 mags. At this point I plan to get either .45 +P cases or even .45 Super brass and keep it all segregated from my other .45 ACP ammo. The barrel will be 16.5".

[Marlin 45 carbine]

the +P cases are the same as regular, just marked +P.
.45 Super cases have a thicker web - and they don't cost much more than +P marked so that may be something you'll want to consider.

[jjohnson]

Yep - he's right - .45ACP+P cases are just marked differently. If you're going to load hotter stuff, you're best off to go for the Super cases. You can even 'black' them (I think Birchwood Casey makes "brass black") to keep them separate from the other .45s.

And I'd be reluctant to try to get 1300fps out of a load I'm running in my Marlin Camp45.:what: even with the heavy Wolff spring and a new buffer. The guts just aren't quite as stout as the old Thompson.

Your 16 inches of barrel will do all you can hope for - most of any powder that's going to work well in that case will be done long before it gets to the 16 inch mark.

Of course.... if you're going supersonic, why bother with that suppressor you're building? :p

[jonnyc]

Hah...you learn something new every day! I didn't know that about the +P cases! That decision is now made....45 Super cases it is. I actually have a bottle of Brass-Black, good idea.

I wish there was a suppressor in the plan!

[Navy_Guns]

PM me for load data.

I built one on a No. 4 Mk. 1 Enfield with a 21" x 1" barrel, the case is fully supported (important). Using standard brass I have done 1,650 fps with cast 230 grain bullets and 1,850 fps with 185 grain Gold Dot bullets. I have a "recipe" I've worked up in Quickload that should give me 2,000 fps with the Gold Dot but I haven't tested it yet... So far no signs of incipient case failure, no primers falling out, etc. If Clark is still floating around, he's a good source too. :p

[jonnyc]

OK, I've narrowed it down a bit after finishing and shooting the rifle (16.5" bbl.). I will definitely get some .45 Super brass and stain it for positive ID. My first goal will be to produce a 100 yard accurate load in the area of 1200-1400 FPS.
Here are my variables:

-200 or 230 grain bullets?
-hard-cast lead, plated, or FMJ bullets?
-Power Pistol or Blue Dot powder?
-standard or magnum primers?

Any and all thoughts most welcome.

[JDGray]

I would shoot a 200gr FMJ, over Power Pistol, standard primers. I get a little over 800fps out of my 3" Kimber, with 230gr XTPs over 7.0gr PP, very accurate!

Good luck and be safe!

[Marlin 45 carbine]

yeah, be careful and keep us posted.
I load 200gr or 185 jhp jacketed over power pistol for a stomping load out of my Marlin Camp .45.

[jonnyc]

Marlin, could you PM me your loading data?

[jonnyc]

My first test, using .45 ACP brass (TZZ), will be with 8.5 and 9 grains of PP, with both 200 and 230 grain lead RN bullets. I'll compare those 4 loads with factory FMJ and see where I want to go from there. I don't think I'll go any higher before I get the .45 Super brass.
Anyone think that's too hot to start?

[ForneyRider]

45 +P, 45 Super, and 460 Rowland load data uses Alliant Power Pistol. Also see #7.

Shooting a 165gr or 185gr bullet will allow for more velocity.

My brother asked me who makes a 45 ACP carbine. Only Thompson and H&K come to mind. I've see a 1911-based carbine on the internet. But not sure about that one.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

some makers of AR type rifles have conversions for the .45acp. there's another couple of makers that don't come to mind right now but have seen the websites.
I use +P data for loading my Camp .45 with 185 and 200 gr jacketed slugs. the Hornady 200gr CT does fine. just my opine don't use Super loads for the Camp.

[jonnyc]

As stated above, my carbine is a bolt-action built on a No.4 Enfield receiver. I reduced my starting loads to 7.5 and 8.0 grains of Power Pistol, with 200 and 230 grain LRN bullets. That should get me started at low-ish +P pressures. Everything I've read on the subject suggests that you're right about being a bit more conservative with the semi-auto rifles. I think a boltie gives a bit more margin of error/safety.

[jjohnson]

Okay, I just cranked 9.0 gr of PP into QuickLoad and it says you're still under 23000 PSI - the limit for .45ACP +P loads unless you're compressing your loads. If you're cartridge overall length is around 1.275, you should be using about 75% of the available powder capacity. That's estimated with 230 gr FMJ giving you a bit less than 21000 PSI

All of the lawyerly :barf: stuff applies..... your mileage may vary.

I'm not reluctant to load within spec for +P for my Enfield bolt gun. God knows THAT one is built solid enough for magnum rifle rounds. :eek: Your real limiting factor is the brass. I wouldn't go trying to stuff a bunch of hot stuff like Red Dot under a 300-gr hollow point made for buffalo guns :what: but you do have a bit more safety margin to play with than, say, the guy with a WWI 1917 Colt wheelgun.

[Navy_Guns]

I'm telling you dude, I've tried several loads in the 35,000 psi range with NORMAL .45 ACP brass in my enfield conversion and have had ZERO signs of trouble...

[Ed Harris]

Having hot loads for the rifle which you can't use in the pistol defeats the whole purpose of the .45 ACP rifle. I have two .45 ACP rifles which I use to silently kill deer to control crop damage and with a 24 inch or longer barrel and standard presasure 230-gr. Golden Sabre Remington factory loads it is almost silent. Velocity is little different from an M1911 pistol, but very low noise. Also have a single-shot Beretta rifle in .45 ACP which I use for same purpose. You can watch a video clip with audio here. The bullet hitting steel makes more noise than the gun going off.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=3435&forum_id=65

[jonnyc]

Great info, guys, many thanks.

[StrawHat]

I agree with the point made by Ed Harris. Having had a variety of 45-70s and loads for each one I nearly had heart failure when I saw my shooting partner slip a 45-70 Bomb for a Siamese Mauser into my trapdoor. I got to him before the trigger was pulled but since then I load for the weakest firearm in that chambering.

The loads may be foolproof to you but those hot loads will at some point find their way into your handgun. Far safer to find a good load for the handgun and use the same load in the rifle.

[jonnyc]

In my case that's not the best situation. I currently only load .45 ACP with light Bullseye loads and 200 Grain LSWC for my S&W 1917. My 1911A1 usually just gets factory FMJ. i want something different for my other .45.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

load a .45 Super load in 'Super' cases if you have a bolt action.
IMO the '+P' is as hot a load should be used in a semi-auto. I've had good results w/the '+P' loads of jhp (185gr) and hornady ct (200gr fmj) in my camp .45.

[Paints]

the +P cases are the same as regular, just marked +P.
.45 Super cases have a thicker web - and they don't cost much more than +P marked so that may be something you'll want to consider.

I used to think that too, and maybe it's generally true. However, in an article on .45 Super, the author cut down some brass for comparison and the Starline +P had a thicker web than Winchester standard 45. See http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm about halfway down the page:

From left to right - .45 ACP, .45 ACP +P, .45 Super®. The difference is actually quite significant in the web area, as marked by the yellow vertical line. The Winchester measured .175", the Starline +P .182" and the Super .198". .023" over standard is a lot of brass and makes it easy to see what the Super brass is critical to proper function and safety.

I don't know, maybe Starline is just thicker in all their brass?

The other thing I would mention is that the 45 super brass has less case volume (due to more brass) and therefore would create a bit higher pressure with the same powder than would standard 45 brass. Probably not a lot higher, but a little, I'm guessing.

Ken

[Marlin 45 carbine]

you're right Paints - Starline (the source of my Super brass) is stouter made than several others. since the Enfield has a supported chamber I'm just guessing that +P brass likely would suffice for the O.P.'s stated purpose.

[jonnyc]

I'm currently playing a bit with both.
The upper-range loads are going in Super cases for now, however. When I establish the load I want, I'll try it in some +P and TZZ cases to check for any pressure signs. I have stain marked about 150 Super and +P cases for my Enfield project, so I don't expect to run short for a good long time.

[Border Hopper]

Is the 45 Win Mag a possibility? The brass for that round is still available and would give you extra powder space with the same case head. Sounds like a lot of fun and this sort of activity keeps us harmlessly occupied.

Border Hopper

[jonnyc]

I thought about that, but; the kit comes in .45ACP, I have other guns in .45ACP, and I already reload .45ACP. Seemed like the best choice for me.