Big Trouble... DPMS LR-308 Jammed .. Stuck .. HELP


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Evergreen
October 11, 2009, 11:01 PM
I was at the range today and I am relatively new with shooting AR guns. I am out in the desert right now in Central Oregon. Yesterday , I was at the range and I and another more person experienced shooter examined the bolt and he said it looked like it had too much lube. Today, I was out shooting and I noticed my LR-308 had some issues and was not feeding right. I was using the NATO Portuguese .308 mil-surplus ammo in brass case. It , supposedly is some of the best mil-surplus you can buy. Well, it seemed that after I shot 10 rounds that day, around the 11th or so, it was starting to have feeding problems. I had to force out the rounds by pulling the charging handle with some force and after examining the rounds, it appeared they were chewed up and you could see some of the metal shaving from the brass case or the bullet, itself.

Well, after a few times of this, I was shooting again and shot another few rounds with no problem. By the fourth shot or so I pulled the trigger and nothign happened. I tried extracting the round, but the charging handle was jammed. I removed the upper and tried forcing out the bolt, but to no avail.
I had another person who was more experienced than I try to look at it and he said he would rather not try to force it with a crowbar because it may damage it. He said to bring it to a gunsmith.

I am going nuts right now and filled with grief. I invested over $3500 into this gun, including the gun, mount, scope. This was my prized long range shooting rifle. I feel a lot of hurt that this happened. The one thing the guy told me was the bolt was very dry and that he suspected it may have something to do with it, but was not sure. I have a hard time believing a dry bolt could cause such a jam after just 15 rounds.

What I like to know is what people think the problem is? Does anyone think the gun itself has a problem, perhaps a factory lemon? Do you think something got stuck because the bolt was running dry? Remember I fired only 15 rounds out of it that day. Perhaps, it was the Portuguese .308 NATO mil-surplus ammo?

I am really perplexed and will be bringing it to a gun smith tomorrow. Iam in Bend/Redmond area, any suggestions for a good gunsmith?

Thanks for the help.. Hope I don't have to lose this gun or send it back to DPMS. :banghead:

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Mags
October 11, 2009, 11:09 PM
Here is what you do.

1. If it has an adjustable stock adjust it to the lowest or smallest positition

2. Pull on the charging handle

3. Paying attention to the muzzle location SLAM the butt of the rifle on a firm surface such as wood but beware of concrete.

X-Rap
October 11, 2009, 11:13 PM
It may run counter to what you believe but real mags is spot on.

Evergreen
October 11, 2009, 11:16 PM
Is there any risk of the round going off ? There is a live round inside , either the chamber or, even worse, a bullet stuck in the barrel. I am thinking its a stuck round. Also, I have the upper and lower detached. Do I need to try this exercise with the gun fully attached? I was a bit nervous to attach the gun, with the fear the hammer of the lower might set of the stuck round in the upper. Tell me , what you think.. I would love to try anything that works and that I know is safe.

Mags
October 11, 2009, 11:17 PM
Yes you must fully assemble the rifle, as for the live round that is why you must follow strict muzzle control. I have done this drill before with a live round without the round firing, generally this malfunction is from a failure to go in battery associated with bad ammo.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 11, 2009, 11:18 PM
Man that stinks - hope you get it fixed for good. Take it to a 'smith who has experience with AR types if the above advice does not work.

Evergreen
October 11, 2009, 11:20 PM
I will go ahead and try the protocal that Mags suggested. I am just wondering, does anyone think I caused any permanent damage to my gun? I would be heartbroken if I did and like to get repaired whatever damage I caused. Please tell me what you think. If the round is extracted, should I take it to a gunsmith for examination or woudl it be safe to shoot again?


I was just reading on another site that a DPMS LR-308 is a match type gun and that it doesn't handle surplus ammo well and that it must be kept quite wet with the lube. I suppose I had it running real real dry and used the NATO 7.62 x 51mm rounds. Does anyone think this could have been the culprit? Shouldn't I be able to shoot NATO ammo out of any .308 gun?

Mags
October 11, 2009, 11:23 PM
What does the markings say on your mag well, mine says 7.62, that will be your answer for ammo type. I just think you used poor quality ammo.

SammyIamToday
October 11, 2009, 11:34 PM
I have the SASS and AP4 models. From the sound of it you have the 24inch stainless rifle. It is a precision rifle, so it's not really very forgiving for junk ammo.


Keep the BCG's rather wet with lube. That helps a lot. At first they are really tight, so the break-in takes a while. AP4 was noticeable more loose than the SASS for what that's worth.

Also, don't use surplus ammo in them. The manual tells you not to. I imagine some surplus might work well, but when you spend that much on a rifle, you might as well feed it decent stuff.

Evergreen
October 11, 2009, 11:47 PM
Just an update. Unfortunately , I don't think Mags advice will work. The bolt is kinda stuck and the charging handle is very stuck and the bolt extends to a point where I can no longer attach the upper to the lower assembly.

Does anyone have any other ideas how I can safely extract this round or should I send it to the gunsmith? I was afraid there might be some damage in the gun and was thinking it should go to the gunsmith anyway. Eager to hear suggestions.


I have learned my lesson about using mil-surplus ammo in my nice guns.. I will sell most of my surplus .308 ammo and use the money it to buy the good stuff. (Yes, I will reload one day, so don't mention that). I didn't know this gun had issues with surplus 7.62 ammo. Also, I will lube the bolt like crazy next time.

However, I am still stuck and cannot worry about next time when my gun is so very ill. :(

Mags
October 11, 2009, 11:51 PM
Yup, worse thing you coulda done was dissassemble with a round in the chamber. you will have to go to a smith now. Your malfunction is caused generally by an out of spec case neck. Your bolt is not fully in battery because the round could not fully chamber due normally to case size.

Evergreen
October 11, 2009, 11:55 PM
Ok .. thanks for your assistance... Sometimes we have to learn the hard way in life... I think I will have to do my homework on my .308/7.62 x 51 type of guns..

Do you think there is any permanent damage to the gun, barrel, chamber, etc that may have been caused by this incident? I do have a few rounds that are partly shaven, I should go post pics of them, but just feel too exhausted. I never seen anything like it. It looks like the rounds were sliced with a knife. I am just hoping I didn't cause any damage that would result in me having to lose the upper assembly of my DPMS LR-308. Let me know what you think.

Mags
October 12, 2009, 12:15 AM
It really depends on what the smith is going to have to do to get your bolt out. A competent smith should inspect the chamber after he removes the malfunction.

FlyinBryan
October 12, 2009, 12:26 AM
i seriously doubt there is any permanent damage to the rifle.

believe it or not this is a fairly common problem with dirty or oversized ammo, its also possible that the rifle has a tight chamber.

it is also very common to remedy the problem as described by mags.

i had 1 ar type rifle (colt match target rifle) that did it so often that i became quite the expert at bouncing the butstock to clear it. i would just hold the handgaurd with my left hand, and hold my right hand on the charging handle, and while depressing the charging handle latch, pogo the thing on the ground, and like mags said, control the muzzle direction when you do it.

very unlikely that your rifle is damaged.

if you depress the buffer with your thumb you might be able to get the carrier started into the buffer tube and get it put back together.

if you can, and can pogo it, it will pop right open.

ps. it sounds like your chamber might be dirty, and keep the bolt and carrier very very lubed, inside and out.

Evergreen
October 12, 2009, 01:45 AM
I tried to compress the buffer tube and fit the upper to the lower, but I think all I achieved was damaging a small part of my lower receiver. I tried nudging it in there and notice I shaved away some metal or wore away some of the finish on the part of the lower receiver that connects to the upper receiver. I hope that I didn't create a new problem in the attempt to solve anohter. I am going crazy over this :banghead:

Well, I think I am off to the gunsmith tomorrow.

How about just thumping the bolt and upper against my hard rubber floor? I have workout mats, which are a bit harder than wood, but softer than concrete? Perhaps, what I just said is too dangerous, I would probably be a bit afraid to try it.

It doesn't look like there is any way to get the upper and lower together, the bolt extends out too far and I think I have now damaged a piece of my lower receiver trying to connect them. :(

billdeserthills
October 12, 2009, 01:59 AM
Evergreen you should quit messing with it Now. Take the gun to a gunsmith and let him (or her) do their job. You are not going to "get lucky" at this point.

Bovice
October 12, 2009, 03:02 AM
yank on the charging handle. don't just put two fingers and tug. give it a YANK.

9mm+
October 12, 2009, 08:51 AM
As Bill said above, you need to stop NOW. You're at the point that any further corrections could lead to permanent damage. A gunsmith should be able to rectify the issue, unless of course you've damaged the upper or lower assemblies.

Yes, there are very expensive lessons in life, but hopefully this expense will only be the gunsmith's labor rate and not replacing your LM-308's assemblies. Don't ever use mil-surp ammo in a match-grade rifle. With this shortage dragging on, it's tempting to use sub-grade ammo, but just say no...

Evenflo76
October 12, 2009, 08:57 AM
Sorry to hear about your trouble. Please read this article pertaining to how to clean and lube an AR: http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf

I don't know about the differences in ammo, but it doesn't matter if you are not properly lubing the rifle. Also, understand that a new rifle may require a bit more maintenance until break in.

After checking DPMS' website, you can see that the only rifle they offer in 7.62 NATO is Sportical, and that all other call for .308 Winchester in their chambers. More here: http://www.303british.com/id36.html

Zane
October 12, 2009, 09:47 AM
After checking DPMS' website, you can see that the only rifle they offer in 7.62 NATO is Sportical, and that all other call for .308 Winchester in their chambers.

The LR-308C, T, SASS and AP4 are also in 7.62 Nato. The 308, B and L are the only ones in .308.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 12, 2009, 10:19 AM
Whatever you do, think CLEARLY, and no matter WHAT YOU DO, make sure you are treating this as a LOADED WEAPON, as it is!

Realize that, at minimum, a round could fire in the direction the muzzle is pointed, and if there happens to be a barrel obstruction, at worst, the gun could blow up.

I don't want to scare you, but we all want you to be SAFE, keeping the gun pointed in a SAFE DIRECTION AT ALL TIMES!

If you live in an apartment, or house with others, DO NOT try all of the above items until you are SURE that -- should the gun go off, you will not send a bullet through a wall or ceiling!

Also, DO NOT place any body part in front of the muzzle! :eek:

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 12, 2009, 10:22 AM
Is there a way you can take a close-up photo of the bolt position -- as viewed from the ejector port on the right side?

You need to first upload the photo to an image-hosting service, then link to the photo from here.

Grey Morel
October 12, 2009, 10:56 AM
Evergreen: from your description of events it sounds like you tried to disassemble your rifle by unhinging the upper and lower, because you were too afraid to follow Mags advice. Please correct me if I am wrong; this is the assumption I am working under.

Your problem was likely caused by wrong ammo. Military 7.62x51 is head spaced from the top of the shoulder, whereas commercial 308 head spaces off the bottom of the shoulder. As a result of this, a military chamber is .013" longer than a commercial spec chamber. This means that a NATO rounds can be "in spec" for a military chambers but still be out of spec for commercial chambers.

Portuguese 7.62, while good ammunition, is likely not the correct type for your rifle.

I may sound "preachy", but the correct thing to do would have been to remove the magazine from your rifle, and bash the stock HARD on a solid surface, as many time as needed to retract the bolt. All that does is use the inertia of the swing to retract the bolt with more force than you can generate with your hands; the bolt carriage simply retracts and cycles the round out the same way it would if it were firing normally. These rifles are not tinker-toys; the chance of damaging your rifle is very small. I know from experience.

I have experience with a 5.45x39 AR-15, built with a S&W upper. Apparently the S&W chambers are cut on the tighter side of spec; you can not eject a live round by hand. Steel cased ammo (the only kind available in most places) will wedge in the chamber so tight that once a round is chambered it must be shot in order to remove it, and if you try to pull on the charging handle the bolt retracts just far enough to jam everything to hell, while leaving the cartridge in the chamber. The only way to get the round out at that point is to bash the darn thing on the ground.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 12, 2009, 11:41 AM
Wouldn't a brass rod from a hardware store, carefully hammered from the muzzle end release the cartridge -- especially if someone were pulling on the charge handle at the same time?

Again, make sure NO BODY PART is in front of the muzzle at all times, including hands, eyes, head, etc.:uhoh:

taliv
October 12, 2009, 12:07 PM
Mag's advice is only treating a symptom. it's what you do in the field after you've been rolling around in the mud for weeks and shooting thousands of rounds and your gun is filthy and you get something stuck and need to get your gun up and running fast.


"mortering' your rifle is NOT something you should have to do to a brand new rifle after firing 10 rounds from the bench.

something is wrong. try some different ammo. if it happens again, send it back.

hammerklavier
October 12, 2009, 12:52 PM
Don't hammer on the round, it could blow up the whole rifle.

Evergreen
October 12, 2009, 03:00 PM
Thanks for all the good advice and care from everyone here. I am just bringing the damn thing to the gunsmith. THis is more risk and headache than I care to bear.


As far as Mag's advice, I would have followed it, but he gave me this advice after I already disassembled the upper from the lower assembly. I seperated the two at the range and the bolt extended outward after I and another gentleman were fiddling with it.

I am going to a local gunsmith who seems like he knows his stuff. He has had a shop for a long time in the area and was suggested by a person at my range.

I will let you know what happens. I am just hoping to God that my gun will be in one piece, ready to shoot after the round gets out of there. I think I caused more damage trying to fix it, then I did jamming it.

Yes, I am in a crowded area and I cannot risk a round going off into my neighbor's house.


And, I will never use mil-surplus ammo in my rifles again. Maybe I will save some for my Saiga .308, but not my DPMS 308's. NEVER AGAIN. I will sell all my mil surplus ammo and go search for some factory stuff. Reloading is next on the agenda.

SammyIamToday
October 12, 2009, 04:51 PM
If you have a Saiga 308, I'd keep the mil-surp for that. Those things will eat anything.

1858
October 12, 2009, 05:09 PM
I don't understand all this "bang the butt on a hard surface" stuff. :confused: The easiest, safest, gentlest way to get the bolt back is to use a brass punch, and a decent hammer. I've seen my friend (a range officer) do this many times to ARs that have stuck bolts ... usually from defective/sloppy/ignorant reloads/reloaders. Every AR bolt I have or have seen has a suitable spot to place the punch (see arrow) and a few gentle or firm taps with a hammer gets the bolt back. I sure as hell won't be banging any of my rifles on the ground. :banghead:

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/pof/p415_223/pof_bolt.jpg

:)

Mags
October 12, 2009, 05:55 PM
The proper prcedure is banging the butt of the rifle that is the way it was designed.

tkcomer
October 12, 2009, 05:55 PM
This has happened to me on my DPMS LR-308B. Smacking the butt on the ground doesn't seem to work a lot of times on a 308. You've got the upper separated from the lower. You can see the bottom of the bolt. You can use a screwdriver, but a wooden dowel is better to keep from scratching up the bolt. Put it on the lower edge of the bottom of the bolt. Now tap with a hammer on whatever you're using. The bolt will unlock and eject the round. Don't use a light hammer to do this. Use a regular hammer. It will unlock. But it will take a few raps of the hammer. After you get the round out, check to see if the gun says 308 or 7.62 on the receiver. If it says 308, they don't like mil-surp that much. And DPMS says it takes about 200 rounds to break the gun in. Make sure that bolt is heavily lubed until the gun is broken in. I could say more, but this should put you back in action. Without a gunsmith.

1858
October 12, 2009, 05:57 PM
the proper prcedure is banging the butt of the rifle that is the way it was designed.

BS!!! If you want to bash your butt on the ground, knock yourself out. If I had a stuck bolt and my life depended on it (such as under battle conditions) then perhaps I'd do it. If I'm at the range and it happens I'll use a brass punch the same way a good gunsmith would do it to a customer's rifle.

:)

Steve Marshall
October 12, 2009, 06:04 PM
Mag gave you good advice. As to the ammunition: Portuguese surplus is as good as it gets. We will flog the headspace horse once more. The measurement to the shoulder on ANY .308 or 7.62x51 cartridge is 1.627" to 1.634". The headspace of the rifle should be 1.630" to 1.640" in a civilian rifle. Note the potential of .004" interference fit. If your rifle is on or under minimum headspace you MIGHT have a small problem. In reality, most true military rifles so chambered use some of the tolerance. As an example of a commercial rifle, my M1A has a headspace of 1.632" and the Portuguese surplus I bought was much closer to 1.630". And yes, I took a large sample. The highest one I got in a Wilson cartridge gage and a 1/10th drop indicator was 1.631. From the sound of it, using your description of brass shavings on the cartridge case or bullet is that you have a defective magazine coupled with perhaps some gunk in the chamber. The last post I read was the probably the best you can do without bringing it to a smith. You won't hurt the bolt with the brass drift. All you probably need is just a little more force than you've been using applied in the correct vector. By the way, my M1A has about 11,000 rounds through it. And even though it has never been cleaned or even field stripped, still shoots about 3 or 4 MOA 10 shot groups with Portuguese surplus, iron sights and 59 year old eyes.

Grey Morel
October 12, 2009, 06:12 PM
Some of you are taking this to extremes.

The brass punch idea that 1858 posted is a wonderful and less violent approach, but its not field serviceable. (unless you carry a set of punches and a mallet around with you)

Mags original suggestion IS the accepted field remedy for fixing this problem.

When you get your gun back from the smith, shoot some good commercial brass through it and report back to us.

1858
October 12, 2009, 06:18 PM
The brass punch idea that 1858 posted is a wonderful and less violent approach, but its not field serviceable. (unless you carry a set of punches and a mallet around with you)

Mags original suggestion IS the accepted field remedy for fixing this problem.

That's what I don't get ... who's talking about "field" conditions. If you're at the range or back at home with a stuck bolt, why are you even thinking about an extreme technique that can @#$% up a scope, damage a butt, or place uneccessary stress on numerous parts of the rifle? I know a number of shooters that have a small hammer and brass punch in their range bag for this very contingency.

I'm on a bit of a rant today but talking of field conditions, you'd better have your ***** together BEFORE you head off into the field. Heading off on a hunting trip or weekend shoot with loads that you've never tried before is moronic. I see guys at matches with all kinds of issues because they decided to shoot "new" reloads for the first time at a match ... it's just mind boggling.

:)

tkcomer
October 12, 2009, 07:25 PM
I'm not sure if I'd punch it where the pic shows. I'd rather take the upper off and punch the back of the bolt from there, from underneath the receiver. With the top off, at least the you're not punching on a bolt with the hammer against the firing pin. Plus, no spring pressure from the buffer pushing against it. And the scratches, if any, will be where you can't see them. No offense.

WyrTwister
October 12, 2009, 07:30 PM
You have cleaned the rifle ( including the chamber and the bolt & bolt carrier group ) after every time you have shot it ?

You have lubed the rifle ( including the bolt & bolt carrier group ) after every time you have shot it ?
What kind of lube ?

How many rounds down the tube ( rounds fired ) ?

If you need a brass punch at the range , pick up a clean piece of empty brass . I have done this many times to drift a sight one direction or other ( to zero for windage on a Mauser ) .

I have done this on a .223 AR , that has a chamber too tight to chamber my reloads , that shoot fine in my other AR's .

As described , with the upper separated from the lower , use the brass punch on the bottom side of the bolt . Brass will not damage the steel Bolt Carrier . But if you let it slip , it might damage aluminum .

God bless
Wyr

1858
October 12, 2009, 07:58 PM
I'm not sure if I'd punch it where the pic shows. I'd rather take the upper off and punch the back of the bolt from there, from underneath the receiver. With the top off, at least the you're not punching on a bolt with the hammer against the firing pin. Plus, no spring pressure from the buffer pushing against it. And the scratches, if any, will be where you can't see them. No offense.

Personally I'd have no problem tapping the bolt carrier in the location shown but I agree 100% that you have more options as to where to place the punch if the upper is separated from the lower. If I were the OP I'd follow your recommendation and try to find a good spot on the underside of the bolt carrier but I wouldn't be worrying about a brass punch scratching a steel bolt. As I mentioned, most stuck bolts/carriers that I've seen have broken free with just a few light to medium taps of the hammer. As long as you keep the punch on the bolt carrier you won't damage anything.

:)

Mags
October 12, 2009, 08:12 PM
The rifle was designed to be cleared in the matter I described PERIOD for that type of malfunction. Not to be hammered out with a brass punch or wooden dowel however that is the only option now since the upper is removed from the lower.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 12, 2009, 08:17 PM
The rifle is probably also designed so if you were to fall onto it and get it full of sand and gravel, you could take it to the riverbank nearby and dunk it a few times to eliminate of all the gravel.

However, unless I am in a "war-situation" with my M4, I am not about to dunk my gun in the river, thank you.:rolleyes:

tjj
October 12, 2009, 09:09 PM
I've seen this happen twice to a buddy's LR 308. He was using his handloaded ammo. After clearing the jam he tried some of mine and it did the same thing. Had to clear the jam again. He then tried with another buddy's handloads that were loaded with factory new and primed Remington casings and they worked fine. Apparently the chamber on the LR 308 was pretty tight. All three of us have since "adjusted" our full length sizing dies a few thousandths. No more chambering problems on any of our LR's. My LR 308 never had a failure to chamber so I guess I may not have as tight a chamber but the rifle has shot several 5 shot sub MOA group at 100yds so it's good to go.

I'm a little late in posting to give Evergreen any help I'm afraid. We were concerned about keeping the muzzle down range so we kept the rifle on the rest and while one person pulled back hard on the charging handle the second person used a rubber mallet to strike the opposite ear of the charging handle. Two or three firm licks and it opened right up. And yes we actually do carry tools to the range. My buddy number two is a professional gunsmith and carries all kinds of neat tools to the range. I've begun to do so myself.

Evergreen
October 12, 2009, 11:00 PM
It's wonderful to read everyone's ideas and suggestions. Sad to say, the gun is now at the smith and he says I gotta wait anywhere from 1-2 weeks :uhoh::(:(.

Well, I was at another local gun shop and some of the guys there gave me some other suggestions about what they thought it could be. One person told me he thought it was a factory defect, a bur (is that how you spell it?) in the chamber or feeding area. He said some guns have points sticking out of it that would result in the ammo getting scratched as it was fed into the chamber.

One thing I noticed is that I would see my ammo always scratched on the right side. The ammo would appear to have liike knife marks on the right side of the case or bullet. One bullet had some metal partly shaved off. You could see a jagged edge hanging from the bullet tip where it looked like it was cut on something.

I am starting to wonder if this is a matter of using poor quality ammo or if this is perhaps a factory defect in my gun, as a result of some protruding jagged edge of some sort in the action area of the rifle.

I have heard that the Portuguese 7.62 x 51 is very decent mil ammo and that it has been used successfullly in DPMS .308s.

However, it could be just a coincidence and it really may be the ammo as I heard others had this problem.

What I like to know is what others think about the fact that the gun would cut up my rounds on the right side at random times, when the gun is trying to feed? Would poor ammo result in the scratching and cutting up of my ammunition like this? I like to hear some thoughts.

I am sure the gunsmith will get to the bottom of it anyhow. I pray to God I don't have to send my most precious gun back to DPMS.

Mags
October 12, 2009, 11:05 PM
Have you broke in the barrel? You know shoot clean,shoot clean,shoot clean,shoot clean,shoot clean then shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean, shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean, the shoot 10x clean.

Evergreen
October 12, 2009, 11:07 PM
The answer is no.. I don't know much about breaking in barrels. I can say there is probably less than 200-300 rounds total shot from that thing. I never thought about cleaning it after shooting it 5 times. Lot of people told me they never did it and they had no problem. I guess if I could reverse time I would have done this now. I just cannot see how not breaking in the barrel woudl result in my ammo getting stuck and cut to pieces. I have fired lots of ammo out of my other guns which were never broken in the correct way and they never had this issue.

But if breaking in the barrel properly could have stopped this, I will be sure to do it next time I buy a new gun.

Mags
October 12, 2009, 11:08 PM
Have you cleaned it during the first few rounds?

Evergreen
October 12, 2009, 11:10 PM
No, I never did. I went to the range fired it, left it at home. It was cleaned maybe after 50 rounds. Fired it some more.. Cleaned it. Then fired it again.. Cleaned it.

I mean, I have hardly used the gun, but did not do any hardcore cleaning after every few shots. Don't know what kind of problem I created.

Mags
October 12, 2009, 11:29 PM
Wow, poor AR-10. Hopefully your smith will get it straightened out you should mention to him how many rounds you put through it without breaking in the barrel.

Edit: After reading posts 1 and 44 why in God's name would you pay so much for a rifle and feed it surplus ammo and not take the time to break in the barrel? Just take this as a lesson learned not to cheap out on your time or money.

1858
October 12, 2009, 11:33 PM
Evergreen, I haven't followed any fancy cleaning regimens on any of my ARs. I load up some ammuntion (typically 35 or 40 rounds for load development), head off to the range, shoot, go home, clean then repeat the following week. I very much doubt that your cleaning of the barrel, or lack thereof had anything to do with your problem. One tip I would offer for a new AR is to single load the first 20 or so rounds particularly if the bolt and carrier has some proprietary coating on it.

Your description of the cases and bullets being scratched up could be due to a defective magazine. How many magazines do you have and does/did this happen with all of them?

I wish you'd tried to tap the bolt back with a punch before dropping the rifle off at a gunsmith. Why the heck it's going to take one to two weeks is beyond me. It's a five minute job that any good gunsmith would do in front of you for a nominal fee or even free!! He/she would have a customer for life that way.

:)

Mags
October 12, 2009, 11:36 PM
From the DPMS website:What is your break in process?
We recommend cleaning the bore every round for 25 rounds and every tenth round for an additional 100 rounds. Use a bore brush or bore snake with either CLP or solvent. Here is the link (http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/faq.aspx).

1858
October 12, 2009, 11:44 PM
The Real Mags, too bad you didn't post the information above the DPMS break-in procedure recommended to improve ACCURACY and NOT reliability.

From the DPMS website ...

http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/warning.aspx

**********************************************************

Ammunition Warning

After extensive testing, we have found that only ammunition manufactured to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) specifications is reliable in DPMS rifles. DPMS recommends the use of high quality, domestically produced ammunition for best results and highest accuracy. For plinking and practice, we recommend only domestic, commercially manufactured ammunition. Please note: the use of hand-loaded ammunition voids the factory warranty. The use of all ammunition listed below also voids the warranty.

We have incurred feeding problems with the following:

* Israeli ammunition
* Korean ammunition
* Chilean ammunition
* Portugese ammunition

We have reviewed several reports, from several manufacturers', regarding problems using this ammunition. The problem appears to be the bullet contour and the overall length of the cartridge, which is contacting the rifling before firing. This is creating a gas port pressure and chamber pressure higher than recommended, therefore causing feeding and extraction problems due to the increased bolt carrier velocity. In addition, there is accelerated fatigue on internal parts. There are also indications that brass may be out of spec, which could create an unsafe condition.
* PMP
* South African produced surplus

We have used this ammunition in the past for testing purposes and found the brass is extremely soft and can "flow" into microscopic pores and grooves in the chamber creating "sticky" extraction. This has been reported in many types of rifles, but is more prevalent in semi-automatic weapons.
* Lacquer Coated Ammunition or Steel-cased, lacquer coated ammunition
* Wolf
* Norinco
* Silver Bear
* Any steel-cased (coated or non-coated) ammunition

The problem with this ammunition is that the lacquer coating on the case. As the barrel heats up, the lacquer turns to a soft, varnish substance and upon cool down, becomes very solid and difficult to remove. This effectively creates an undersized chamber and creates understandable problems.

Your rifle is an investment and it only makes sense to choose quality ammunition for a quality rifle!

**********************************************************

:)

Mags
October 12, 2009, 11:51 PM
Funny I didn't see where the website specified what the break in process was for in my link.

1858
October 12, 2009, 11:58 PM
From the DPMS website ...

http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/warning.aspx

**********************************************************

Barrel Information

To achieve the best results for accuracy you should clean the chamber and bore after every round for the first 25 rounds and then every 10 rounds up to the 100 rounds. It usually takes about 200 rounds per barrel for optimum accuracy. Please keep in mind that our barrels are production barrels not custom barrels. Accuracy is dependant upon many factors such as bullet weight, powder load, rifling twist, rifling lands, operator technique, etc. Our production barrels have achieved anywhere from 1/8" to 1 " M.O.A. Obviously, we would hope that every production barrel would shoot 1/8" M.O.A., but with all of the above factors, we cannot guarantee a specific group size.

**********************************************************

As for their accuracy claims, my 24" fluted stainless DPMS barrel will shoot under 0.5 MOA at 100 yards and 200 yards consistently so I have no complaints. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't follow any fancy break-in procedure with that barrel or any other AR barrel that I have.

:)

Wes Janson
October 13, 2009, 12:12 AM
Let's get a few things clear.

Barrel break-in has nothing to do with the current problem.

The problem was due to the LR-308's tight chamber, when used in conjunction with longer 7.62x51 ammunition.

One of my friends purchased an identical rifle, and a quantity of .308 ammunition loaded for use in an FAL. His problem was identical-failure to feed and lock due to overlength cartridges. My solution was to pick up his rifle, bang the charging handle against the rifle bench (padded edges), clear the round and solve the problem. He sold me the ammo, and I proceeded to shoot it in my FAL and M1A without a hitch (although poor accuracy, to be fair).

LR-308s HAVE TIGHT CHAMBERS AND WILL JAM WHEN USED WITH MILITARY AMMUNITION. ONLY USE .308 WINCHESTER AMMO, OR HANDLOADS PROPERLY SPEC'D FOR THE RIFLE

Claiming "1-2 weeks repair time" from the gunsmith is pure BS. The problem shouldn't take a vaguely competent gun-monkey more than 5 minutes with a hammer and a vise, worse-case scenario. Unless the OP did something truly stupid to the rifle in the process of trying to get it apart, there's not going to be any damage or issue beyond removing the round from the chamber. And leaving a loaded action sitting on a gunsmith bench for two weeks is criminal idiocy.

jpwilly
October 13, 2009, 01:34 AM
After reading this whole mess I'm truly puzzled as to why the op refused to follow the good advise given by a number of people here.

If you need to clear a jam in this rifle it is a simple matter ***Pull like a gorilla on the charging handle and drop the rifle on the butt stock*** The inertia will cause the bolt to cycle.

Otherwise a wooden dowel and or cleaning rod could have been used to clear the jam.

Your LR-308 is tough enough for this procedure. I'm surprised your "gunsmith" didn't do this for you and hand it back the moment you showed up. I'd charge you at least $20.

Evergreen
October 13, 2009, 07:04 AM
Damn.. I feel so ripped off .. Well, the guy said it was hunting season and that he was overbooked with other rifles to service. HE showed me a wall of like 10 rifles. He said he would see why it woudl not taking any longer than 2 hours to fix.

I should have waited and listened to people, but I was frantic and the guy is the most popular gunsmith in the Bend/REdmond area.

The gun is in two seperate pieces, that is why I cannot follow the advice of pounding it against teh ground.. THere is a live round in the chamber and I live in close quarters to my neighbros. Even if there isa 1% chance of it going off when I bang it out, that is too much of a chance for me to take.

Yeah, I guess the guy is going to make some money out of me and I know he could have tried to force it out then and there, but oh well.. What can I do .

Its at the gunsmith, should I go and demand my gun back now? What if I cannot get that live round out of there? He said if it was going to go off it would have gone off already.. I have to admit I do feel a little nervous. I am a new to shooting rifles and I don't have any real people to assist me here. The range I go to is completely empty most of the time and nobody could give me any assistance before I stupidly detached the upper nad lower.


Since it is at the smith and he said 1 week , should I just not wait? If it goes past 1 week I will tell him I want my gun back and I will find another smith. I wasn't planning on shooting this week anyway. I do feel a bit pissed he could have not just got the bullet out there.. I am sure he could have done it in 20 minutes..

He claims he will need to take the barrel off and do all kidns of other things, because the bolt is sticking out and jammed in the chamber. I dunnon.. I am ignorant , pardon me. Think I am stuck now.

I think the guy is going to get $100 out of me for this procedure. I could always use a more experienced person to help plead my case in this matter, but I doubt anyone heere would call the gunsmith and talk with him on my behalf. I felt like a dummy going in there, not sure what to do. I have had gunsmiths make a fortune on me in the past.. They can be unscrupulous.

Bill2e
October 13, 2009, 08:20 AM
Leave the gun at the smith until it is fixed, pay the money and used good factory ammo after that. Good Luck to you.

Wes Janson
October 13, 2009, 08:20 AM
Without seeing the weapon and knowing exactly what's going on, "taking the barrel off" sounds like extreme overkill for the problem. I'm not a gunsmith, but my first inclination would be trying to work the upper and lower back together, and then doing the usual charging handle drill. OTOH, if it's binding up badly enough, you'll just wind up bending up the charging handle by doing so.

All things considered, this shouldn't be a major issue. This sort of problem happens fairly frequently, and at the store I used to work at we'd deal with something of this sort every single day. Right now it's too late to unjam the rifle using proper procedure, and it's too late to get the gunsmith to fix it immediately. Wait out the week, find out exactly what happened, and learn from the mistakes.

tkcomer
October 13, 2009, 09:16 AM
The bolt is back just a tad because the round jammed before it had time to do a full lockup. It's also why the gun didn't fire. The bolt has to be fully in the locked position for the hammer to hit the firing pin. Do not take the barrel off to fix this problem. If the smith says that's what he has to do, I'd question his work on AR type rifles. It is a common problem with the tight 308 chamber of the DPMS rifles. It is supposed to give a slight accuracy edge, though I haven't seen that with mine. And if it was mine, I'd go get the rifle and try the punch tip. At least to keep him from taking the barrel off. Since you have that many rounds through the gun, it is now broken in. But one thing is for sure, once the round is out, disassemble the bolt assembly and clean it. You don't have to do this every time, but lube that bolt with CLP every time you go shooting. It will make the gun more reliable. Breakfree is the brand I can find at Wal-Mart. And for the scratches on the bullets. That is the bullet scraping the lugs on the barrel as you eject a live round. When you pull back on the charging handle, the ejector on the bolt is shoving the shell to the right to eject it. And the bullet scrapes against those lugs, scratching it. Doesn't happen as it chambers from the magazine.

KevinB KAC guy
October 13, 2009, 10:03 AM
Pardon the intrusion.

Mortaring the rifle is an accepted practice.

Delrin block, punch and hammer are necessary now -- and as said it may take all of 30sec to fix.

DO NOT PUT CLP IN THE BORE

Ideally use TW-25B for lube in the bolt/upper receiver for these guns, they like it a lot more than CLP.

I am an SR-25 Armorer, and teach our class to the .gov types


Kevin S. Boland

Military/Government Product Liaison
Knight's Armament Company
701 Columbia Blvd.
Titusville, Fl 32780
1(321)607-9900 ext. 1365
kboland@knightarmco.com

www.knightarmco.com

feedthehogs
October 13, 2009, 04:02 PM
Claiming "1-2 weeks repair time" from the gunsmith is pure BS.


Wouldn't have anything to do with other customers before him would it?

Evergreen,

You gotta quit getting your panties in a wad.
Its just a gun.

It'll get fixed.

jaro
October 13, 2009, 04:03 PM
...it turned out to be a loose gas block. Tightened it up with an Allen wrench and it's been perfect (with intermittent tightening) since. Also check to make sure gas rings are staggered.

Jaro

Evergreen
October 13, 2009, 05:28 PM
Evergreen,

You gotta quit getting your panties in a wad.
Its just a gun.

It'll get fixed.

It's not just A GUN.. Its the gun I love most of all, my baby.. I put more money into this gun than any other and this was to be the gun I did all my real long range shooting with. I really think this gun has a soul.

ANyhow, its at the gunsmith and I am hoping he will fix it without blemish. I guess end of story.

However, the large amount of advice I have been given is very helpful for fixind and preventing problems like this in the future. Too bad I didn't do more of my homework before I got into this mess.

I guess the ammo probably is the culprit. My respect to the guy who posted the disclaimer from the DPMS site.. Shame on me for not reading thaat carefully. I didn't realize Portuguese Mil-surplus ammo was on the list of ammos that screw up the gun and void the warranty. I was always told Portuguese was the best of the best along with Austrian. I guess my warranty is void, that really sucks. Tell me, is there any way DPMS would know I shot this ammo through the gun, if I need to send it back for other repairs?

After this mess is over.. I will sell all my mil-surplus ammo and buy some reloading equipment and factory ammo.

ANyone, interested in mil surplus ammo?? LOL.. :rolleyes:

ny32182
October 13, 2009, 06:02 PM
The ammo is fine; your chamber is just too tight for it.

It is only "a mess" because you have been WAAAAY over-thinking the whole thing from start to finish. It is just a stuck round. It will happen to everyone eventually.

I had an AR15 do the same thing one time, with a reload that wasn't sized enough, before I got the die adjustment sorted out (I was new to reloading in general, and .223 in particular). I pogoed it and went about my business.

It isn't the end of the world. Your gun is a gun, not an expensive painting. It doesn't have to be handled with kid gloves. Your gunsmith is going to pogo it, give it back to you, and charge you something ridiculous for the honor.

It is a lesson learned; next time you will know.

tkcomer
October 13, 2009, 06:47 PM
Hope everything comes out alright. But on a side note, if you ever decide to reload for it, get a small base die.

FlyinBryan
October 13, 2009, 08:39 PM
I am an SR-25 Armorer, and teach our class to the .gov types

can i have your autograph?

Solidus-snake
October 13, 2009, 08:51 PM
My first AR I was shooting some Wolf through it and had this same problem. Stupidity on my part for using wolf but hell, I was new to finnicky AR's. Well anyways, it was cold and I had put several rounds down range n she was nice n hot. Reloaded a mag, chatted for a bit, then went to fire again and FTE. The lacuer had melted off the rounds and built up in the chamber, where it proceeded to harden thus tightening the chamber tolerances.

Just pulled and yanked, and pulled and yanked some more, I swear I felt like donkey kong when it was over, I finally yanked the sumbitch out. Wish I knew about pogoing them then..

Evergreen
October 14, 2009, 05:58 AM
It isn't the end of the world. Your gun is a gun, not an expensive painting. It doesn't have to be handled with kid gloves. Your gunsmith is going to pogo it, give it back to you, and charge you something ridiculous for the honor.

Ok, I am not sure if you read the previous posts, but how is the gunsmith going to pogo the gun, seeing that the upper and lower are detached and cannot be reattached because the bolt is sticking out and cannot be pushed back in? I would have followed the pogo advice, but I was told the gun needed to be in one pice to do that.

Unless, this guy is a liar, he said he will have to do a few things to get the round out, beacuse the gun is detached. Yeah, I made a great mistake removing the upper assembly from the lower.. I am smacking myself on the head now for that.. But what I would like to know is how seeing the gun is apart that he can pogo? Many people here suggested it was too late for the pogo fix, since I already detached the upper and the bolt was stuck and extending out of the chamber.

KevinB KAC guy
October 14, 2009, 08:26 AM
Dude - if you want to get your gun back -- give me a shout and I will talk you through it / send pictures of how to do it through email if you want.

For our Texan friend - the point was to make that I have at least a credible background (that can be verified) in talking about these guns. DPMS bought several of our older guns in the early 90's and designed their gun off our older SR-25 Match rifle.

Its not the end of the world and really a 30 sec fix.

ny32182
October 14, 2009, 09:41 AM
Ok, I am not sure if you read the previous posts, but how is the gunsmith going to pogo the gun, seeing that the upper and lower are detached and cannot be reattached because the bolt is sticking out and cannot be pushed back in? I would have followed the pogo advice, but I was told the gun needed to be in one pice to do that.

If the carrier is sticking out the back of the upper, I presume you just drifted out the front and rear pins and pulled it apart horizontally (rather than pivoting it first) to get it apart in the first place, right? Reversing the process should get it back together.

tkcomer
October 14, 2009, 10:35 AM
Actually, it is easier to get the round out with the upper off the lower using the punch method. And no banging the gun on the ground. I have a friend who had just got a DPMS. He had brass that had already been resized for his M1A. Worked great in that. Told him to stick that brass in his DPMS. It immediately stuck and he banged that rifle hard several times just to get the empty sized brass out. He bought a small base die to cure that problem. Same as me.

W L Johnson
October 14, 2009, 10:59 AM
Is this a DPMS thing? I don't seem to recall anyone complaining about an Armalite doing this.

thanks

Noban
October 14, 2009, 12:18 PM
Hope this all works out for you. Same thing happened to a fellow at our range, but it was a spent case, not a live round like your problem. Bound up real tight. He separated the halves and flipped the upper onto its back in a gun cleaning cradle. Applied copius amounts of CLP on and around the bolt to relieve friction, placed a wooden dowl against the bolt and tapped it to the rear. The bolt popped loose after three wacks.

hammerklavier
October 14, 2009, 12:21 PM
Live and learn, all's well that ends well, etc. $100 is a pretty cheap lesson.

hammerklavier
October 14, 2009, 12:23 PM
For future reference, does DPMS make a 7.62x51 chambered rifle? I seem to remember them having both chamberings listed on their website. I hope that's not false advertising.

hhmorant
October 14, 2009, 12:25 PM
Is this a DPMS thing? I don't seem to recall anyone complaining about an Armalite doing this.

thanks

A friend's Armalite AR-10 had similar problems. No stuck cases, but it had trouble chambering several types of ammo. I think he eventually found Black Hills match ammo worked best.

W L Johnson
October 14, 2009, 02:29 PM
Quote:
Is this a DPMS thing? I don't seem to recall anyone complaining about an Armalite doing this.

thanks
A friend's Armalite AR-10 had similar problems. No stuck cases, but it had trouble chambering several types of ammo. I think he eventually found Black Hills match ammo worked best.

I have yet to find ammo my two Armalities don't like. Lucky maybe?

rino451
October 14, 2009, 03:06 PM
Dude, you can still pogo it. Find something wooden with a sharp corner. Basically, you're going to run the upper along the corner until the charging handle latch contacts the wood and yanks the bolt open. Takes more coordination than the traditional pogo, but it does work. I have to use that method once on someone's AR at a class - the instructor would not allow the pogo method because if it were to fire, he could not account for the bullet. Doing it on a 4x4 post, the barrel was pointed into the berm. Just make sure not to put too much lateral force into it or you run the risk of snapping the charging handle (I'm not sure how robust the ar10 handles are). Also, wood can leave marks on the rifle, so if you're going to be upset by potential marks, then don't try it.

Also, I can't believe that you can't put it back together. Can't you tuck the carrier in and then rock the front down onto the lower and then pin it all back up? If it'll come apart, it'll go back together. Don't pin the front first, that way you can use the front to back leeway to slide the carrier a little way into the buffer tube.

hhmorant
October 14, 2009, 03:22 PM
I have yet to find ammo my two Armalities don't like. Lucky maybe?

I don't know, could be. My friend's rifle seemed to have a very tight chamber. It was very accurate but way too finicky. It eventually had an out-of-battery situation that wrecked it. Armalite replaced the rifle, but it was immediately traded on something else.

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