Chiropractors? (yes, gun-related)


January 19, 2003, 06:36 PM
As I've mentioned in other threads, I've been having serious lower back pain for over two weeks, and it doesn't seem to be getting better (although my M.D. says it is). I can't stand for more than maybe half an hour without the pain reaching nauseating levels.

This situation is unacceptable because: a) I can't go shooting, and I have tons of rounds loaded and guns ready to go; and b) in two weeks our group (WCCA) will begin working a long calendar of gun shows, pushing for concealed carry. At least two of the shows will require me to stay the weekend in the particular towns, and work all three days. Meaning, be standing on my feet all three days.

Situtation "b" concerns me the most, and makes me want to get this pain over and done with.

Some folks I've talked to say chiropractors can take care of this, sometimes in just one visit. I've always thought that chiropractors were some kind of voodoo doctors.

So, do they work, or is it just hocus-pocus?

Thanks for any replies.

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Art Eatman
January 19, 2003, 06:45 PM
Depends on what it is. They can do re-alignment, but there's no real fix for a squashed disk(s).

I have an ongoing love affair with Ibuprofen, myself. After a doctor looked at X-rays of my back and told me, 'You're a 40-year-old man with an 80-year-old back," I knew I was in trouble. That was 28 years ago.

These elastic stretch-belt girdle gizmos are helpful.

Another suggestion would be to find a good athletic trainer who really knows what he's doing. Sometimes they can put a twist-and-snap that gets things straightened out. Worked for me, short-term, but the alignment went away before long...


January 19, 2003, 06:46 PM
They work for me. I too have back and neck problems, without them, I would be absolutely miserable.
Where chiropractors go wrong, is when they start claiming to cure anything and everything.
Traditional medicine and chiropractic medicine both have their place and work well hand in hand.
Give it a try, but don't believe that you will be fixed in one visit, it might take a few weeks, but give it time and have faith.
Good luck.

January 19, 2003, 06:49 PM
Like you, I always thought they were quacks too. However, I got talked into visiting one by my wife. What I found out was that there are chiropractors and then there are chiropractors, if you know what I mean. The one I go to now is an NRA member, active shooter and all around great guy. But most importantly, he worked magic on my wife and me.

I had sciatica, chronic knee pain, lower back pain, upper back pain, shoulder pain, and tennis elbow. I felt old! I thought surgery was my only hope. He cleared up all of the symptoms! My wife had carpal tunnel and chronic migraines. The carpal tunnel is gone and the migraines now only come about once a month instead of two or three a week.

My chiropractor informed me that there are subspecialties within chiropractic. He is a specialist in a technique called the Gonstead method, which he feels is the safest, most scientific way to approach chiropractic. For what it's worth, I trust him. Besides, we talk guns when I visit.

You can find a Gonstead chiropractor in your area by checking out this link: .

Good luck to you!

January 19, 2003, 06:52 PM
If you can find a good chiropractor, they can be miracle workers on your back. Ofcourse, in order for your back to get better, you will have to go at first several times a week, then once every week, then you will move down to once a month or so. Its a long term commitment, but your back will thank you if you find a good chiropractor.


January 19, 2003, 06:54 PM
About 20 years ago, I messed up my back and later ended up experiencing severe lower back pain. Nothing much helped, and the doc said about what yours did. After having friends and relatives injured by bone crackers, as well as knowing a few of them, uhmmm... no way.

I read an article by a pro basketball coach. Those guys are very prone to lower back pain, which, of course sidelines them.

He described "shoulder rolls" that completely took care of the problem. Did for me too, and I havn't had a twinge for more than 10 years. Whenever I did before the twinges stopped completely, I'd just do a few shoulder rolls and that would take care of the problem.

Here's what you do.

Lie flat on your back on carpet.

Pull your knees up until the small of your back touches the floor as determined by sliding your hand between your back and the floor.

Comfy? You should be.


Interlock your hands behind your neck. This is ONLY to keep your arms from flopping around!

Roll gently from side to side onto your shoulders about 5-8 times using the muscles in your torso. DO NOT pull on your neck. Your hands and arms are only along for the ride. This is a very easy exercise.

What it does is stretch the muscles that align your spine. You should get a bit of relief very quickly, and when you're feeling good in the back, do it every day or so for a while. Whenever you feel the slightest twinge, do the shoulder rolls.

January 19, 2003, 07:08 PM
I was given the same exact excercise by a Physical Therapist. Member of our Gun Club--I was seeing him for something else.

I was given this tip also:
small styrofoam cup 1/2 filled with water and allow to freeze. Unwrap bottom of cup exposing ice. (resembles a deorderant top) and have the Mrs., SO, whomever apply in circles ever slow slowly with light to med pressure on area of pain. Thought I was gonna die. On my stomach, gripping matress, then all of sudden--no pain!

I had chipped my scalpula and couldn't do the shoulder rolls for a bit. The ice HURTS at first, then the pain subsides.

January 19, 2003, 07:41 PM
My suggestion is talking a class from Front sight institute. Its owned and operated by a scientologist Chiropractor.

You get some good training and really get "healed" all at the same time.

January 19, 2003, 07:58 PM
I like my chiropractor so much I sold him a gun.:cool:

Mike Irwin
January 19, 2003, 08:44 PM
One of my best and longest friends is a Chiropractor.

Until he went into the business, I always thought they were sort of voodooie...

But, a couple of things have turned me around and made me recognize them as being legitimate care givers:

1. Dave, my friend the chiro, saved my wedding day (now I wish he hadn't). My knee was KILLING me -- I could barely walk or put weight on it, and I was getting married in an hour. In desperation, I asked him if he could do anything.

I described what was going on, and he says "Ok, you've got blahblah pressing on a nerve in the blahblah region of your lower back."

I immediately think to myself "OK, I know it, this IS quackery, but what do I have to lose?"

I lay down, and he contorts me, grabs hold, and WHAM!, it felt like a grenade going off in my lower back.

I stood up, and the pain was absolutely, completely, gone. I could put full weight on my leg, I got through my wedding and hiked in the Great Smokies for my honeymoon, and it never bothered me.

2. A few months before my wedding I was in an auto accident. I was at my doctor, an Osteopath, for a follow up, and he told me to lay back, he was going to adjust my neck and shoulders.

He then proceeded to do EXACTLY what a Chiropractor would do to adjust my neck and shoulders.

3. I got to observe Dave at work a few years ago when I visited him and his family in Iowa, where he has his clinic. After watching him working on several patients, it became very clear to me that a lot of what he was doing had a lot in common with what athletic trainers and phsycial therapists do.

So yes, I believe that chiropactors are bona fide medical providers, and should be treated as such.

That they don't fling pills and surgery at a bad hair day like so many MDs seem to do these days should be seen as a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

Just as with any other professional, there are good ones, there are mediocre ones, and there are crooks.

January 19, 2003, 08:53 PM
Years ago I hurt my back. I had lower back pain everyday for 15 years. Medical doctors could not find anything wrong. I had a MRI, nothing wrong.
Finally I went to a chiropractor, had to go for a few visits to straighten my spine. I have had no pain for the last year. I am a believer.

January 19, 2003, 08:54 PM

If your back is killing you and you're going to be on your feet for your job, I'd recommend paying some serious attention to your footwear.

Birkenstocks are butt-ugly and a lot of guys refuse to wear 'em no matter what, but they do provide the best support where you need it.

If you can't bring yourself to wear Birkies, any other shoe with a wide, stable platform, plenty of absorbing cushion between your foot and the floor, and solid arch support will help.

You wouldn't believe how much a really good pair of shoes takes the stress off a bad back.


I base most of my fashion taste on what doesn't itch. -- Gilda Radner

January 19, 2003, 08:57 PM
Howdy Howdy, They do wonders. If it is a problem they can fix you will sure notice a difference.
It may take a few visits, ask around the good one will have the word of mouth to go with the good work they do.

Standing Wolf
January 19, 2003, 08:59 PM
I grew up believing chiropractors were quacks. When my neck, shoulder, and arm pain got bad enough and my Kaiser-Permanente so-called "medical care" proved sufficiently incompetent, I tried a chiropractor. He helped considerably. When the pain subsided, I stopped going. When the pain returned, I went back. He helped somewhat.

The problem turned out to be my teeth, which I'd neglected for decades. I'm still contending with them, but have turned the corner.

Chiropractors can help a great deal; like medical doctors, however, they often have only part of the needed answers.

George Hill
January 19, 2003, 09:09 PM
Neck, shoulder, arm pain... all related to teeth?

Are you British?:scrutiny:

January 19, 2003, 09:17 PM
The only relief that I found was after taking a "back-pain boot camp" at the New England Baptist Hospital (probably the pre-eminent orthopedic hospital in Boston). IIRC, it's an 8 week course of treatment. Twice a week you go in for physical therapy. Not the usual shake-and-bake therapy. 30 minutes of stretching. 30 minutes of aerobics (ugh!). 1 hour of weight training. That's what keeps my back pain under control.

January 19, 2003, 09:36 PM
My wife would be in a wheel chair without chiropractic care. She has inoperable injuries in her low back do to the rigors of childbirth, the MD crowd basically told her to tough up or wheel through life. One local chiro put her back on her feet, and has kept her there. All is not well, but at least she has the independance of a fully functional adult.

Go see a chiro recommeded by some people that use them, you will not know the value until you do.

January 19, 2003, 10:01 PM
Back pain. I hate back pain. I'm sure the right chiropractor can help alleviate, or even correct, many back problems.

Chiropractors have helped both mom and dad - for mom, her neck; and for dad, his back after lugging heavy logs around.

I don't think a chiropractor can do alot for me, other than what I've been able to do.

I had surgery when I was 15 for multiple scoliosis, so I've got a metal rod running like a railroad track down my spine. I can only move the lower few vertebrae where the rod doesn't extend. The doctor said, "You'll never have back pain again." :rolleyes:

If I sleep in the wrong position, my muscles twist but my back doesn't move with it, so I end up with either back pain or need to pop my back.

I do some self-chiropracty, popping my upper back by lying on my back on a flat surface and moving my arms around in circular motions. For the lower back, I stand with legs spread shoulder width and rock in different directions (slowly) at the waist. That normally works. The popping sounds tend to worry mom and dad, but I keep telling them it's okay - I feel ALOT better when it pops.

Besides limited movement, the rod also keeps me from shooting in a seated position where I can prop my elbows on both knees, so you only see pictures of me resting on my left elbow on the left knee. It's not as supportive, but it works. I'm also not fond of shooting prone for longer periods because of the rod.

It hasn't affected my ability to withstand recoil in a bad way, however - it actually helped. I have little back muscle because I can't move my back, but my shoulder/upper chest muscles have compensated wonderfully - the upper chest muscle works as a great recoil pad. :p

January 20, 2003, 12:29 AM
Taking care of backpain is something I do every day, I can say first hand that Chiropractic works! Find yourself a good knowledgable doctor of chiropractic and you can kiss your back pain goodbye!

PM me if you have any questions about chiropractic!

Blackhawk can vouch for me on my knowledge...esp about pineapples :)


January 20, 2003, 12:45 AM
Roger that! :D

45R, did you ever post anything about the Sacramento gun show a while ago, or did you not go after all?

On the topic: For 30 years, I've know people who have been strong believers in Chiropractors. They keep switching, and when I ask why, they're still looking for "better" ones. If you know how to find a good one, I'll pass it on....

January 20, 2003, 01:15 AM
Ok I gotta ask about the pineapples--what do they do?

I've been exposed to medical stuff on a limited bases. I also have worked with surgeons and have a few PT friends...but I think this thread may have enlightened me on some problems mom has had. Oh yeah, I found some snafu's with her meds...still have all those books.

So what about loss of feeing in lower legs, feet AEB swelling, tender painful areas. I'm thinking a nerve, but didn't get too in depth with some of the nerves--mainly the major ones. Ideas?

January 20, 2003, 01:24 AM
A couple of years ago I was riding my bike when I did an end-o and landed squarely on my forehead on pavement. (no helmet.)
I was lucky in that I didn't even sustain a concussion or worse, and thought nothing of it.
A few months later, my neck started to pop (like you see all the tough guys do in the movies.) It contiunally got worse, to the point where I could turn my head one way and the next and it sounded like someone breaking a fistfull of small twigs.
A couple months after that I started having serious neck pain. I found a local chiropractor, went in and they took x-rays. My back looked like I had a mild case of multiple sclerosis, there was a noticeable curve in it. The Chiro told me it was a combination of the bike wreck, and probably made worse by sitting in front of a computer for hours at a time. So he started out with popping a couple of the vertebrae in my back, and doing the neck cracking thing that chiropractors are known for.
Slowly but surely, my pain went away, and my neck stopped making the cracking noise.
Recently, I moved to Colorado and found a new chiropractor who took new x-rays for his records.
The curve that was in my back is now completely gone.

I think that there is something to chiropractic, but like anything else, be sure of what you're getting into. Go in for an initial consultation. If he doesn't do x-rays, I'd be suspicious.
And make sure he's a graduate of the Palmer chiropractic school.

Bear in mind that chiropractors aren't miracle workers, I've been getting chiropractic care for over 2 years now, but it has made a drastic difference.

January 20, 2003, 01:26 AM
Pineapples and pomegranates apparantly have a lot of the enzyme bromaline in them. I accidentally discovered that poms wiped out arthritic type shoulder and hand pain I'd had for a long time. 45R put me onto pineapples as having the same enzyme. They seem to have the same benefical effect as the poms.

I've been telling every other achey geezer I know about it, and most of them have had the same results.

The whole thing started on TFL when somebody was experiencing debilitating pain from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. You might search those archives too.

45R, here's another question for the pineapple expert you are. Somebody told me that pineapples are canned raw, so the enzyme should be viable. True or not?

January 20, 2003, 01:34 AM
Thanks Blackhawk.
Instructors kept harping on enzymes and proteins. I'm familar with some from other foods, bromoline is new to me.

Time for a search and to break out the med books--again.;)
Going to do a check on Chiro's and Pt's--mom's Dr. is missing something...and we wouldn't have gotton this far without me researching.

January 20, 2003, 01:36 AM
I dont know much about canning, but isnt there heat involved when canning. I not sure if the heat would kill the enyzme, so I cant really answer your question. My only suggestion is to try the canned stuff and see if it helps with the pain. Most people would opt for the bromaile pills. (Just stay away from the ones that contain ephedra.) You could always try a one week trial to see if it helps the pain, if not you can go back to the raw stuff.

I'd stick to raw anyways. Tastes better. :) Something about heat that changes the way they taste. Its not as acidic when they come in cans.

Sorry I'm not an expert on canning. :)

Hope it helped


January 20, 2003, 01:40 AM
Went to two different chiropractors, the first was one that tried to sell vitamins and supplements and had all the gimmicks in his office. Fixed the problem but kept trying to get more visits out of me. On a side note, he went to jail because he was caught doing some illegal 'adjustments'. On his teenage babysitter :what:

Second chiropractor was very good. Injured myself at the range (driving range, though). He diagnosed what was wrong, said it would take about 4 weeks of adjustments to fix, and lo and behold, four weeks later I'm done. No attempts to get me to come back, no snake oil pitches, no wacky therapy machines.

Just watch out for the chiropractor who tries to sell you on a bunch of other things. Find one that will say the problem is X, and it's going to take Y sessions to fix the problem.

January 20, 2003, 01:44 AM
The whole secret of canning, AFAIK, is to heat the food hot enough to kill all the bacteria, and enzymes get nuked at far lower temperatures, so "cold" canning doesn't make any sense to me.

Definitely the raw stuff. It works, and why fix something that's not broken?

January 20, 2003, 02:00 AM
I agree lots of vitamins, minerals, whatever can be reduced or lost in prepartion( cannning, cooking).
I did learn fresh was best, be it fruit, veggie or meat. Interesting how some cultures eat more fresh than we and have less health problems than we fast food/nuke'em/ ain't got time to cook persons over here.

January 20, 2003, 02:10 AM

Finding a good chiropractor:
1st Referral to a DC by friends
2nd Referral by a MD.

If you want to do research on your DC. This is limited to DCs in CA

Try :

That will let you know if they are currently licensed has plenty of resources and articles on chiropractic.

As a DC myself I would look for someone who:

Takes a detailed history: Questions asked. Onset, Progression, Pallative, Quality of Pain, Radiation of pain, Severity of pain, Timing of pain. Previous injuries, previous back pain, sugeries should all be asked.

A review of systems should be done.

Physical Exam. Ranges of motion in injuried area of area of complaint. In this case its the low back. Orthopedic tests should be done. This also includes observation of posture, deformity, biomechanics of patient, and soft tissue abnormalities ie tumor, rubor or functional lasse.

Xrays...... This is a sticky area. Some doctors will xray, some will not. This is due to the indication. If trauma is invovled and orthopedic tests show any indication that injury may be more then soft tissue, patient should be xrayed before treated.

A report of findings should be given the next day after treatment to explain to the patient in detail what type of injury was sestained and how long it will take to return the person back to pre-injury status.

Typically the first 6 visits will happen in the first 2 -3 weeks for acute injuries. This is to reduce inflammation, muscle hypertonicity, decrease pain levels and restore joint motionl. Folks any chiro can move a joint, but the muscles that attach to the joint must be taken cared of. Tight muscles will pull and move the joints back in to the area of dysfucntion. If after the first 2 weeks the pain does not resolve a different clinical trial should be initiated. If the pain does not get any better, he/she should be refering you out to another specialist. Keep in mind that there may be competing factors to your wellness and your DC should inform you of those.

Be wary of the "ones" that want to see you for 3 times a week for 3 months for "sprain/strains" or maintenance. Again here are special circumstances and those will be addressed to you by the docotor. Maintenance of 1 or 2 times a month is accepted and reasaonable, especially for active people who are constantly beating up their bodies.

Patients will be educated on the use of ice and remedial home stretches and or exercises. Stabilize the area of pain. Introduce flexibility and improved joint function, increase stamina, and strengthen.

Chiropractors use a variety of tools to get the job done. The best guys are the ones that continue to educate themselves reading peer reviewed articles in their scope of practice. Ask lots of questions and dont be afraid to let him/her know about your concerns before treatment.

I hope this helps!


January 20, 2003, 02:16 AM
Thanks 45R- gonna check into this

Malone LaVeigh
January 20, 2003, 02:25 AM
I have more experience with back pain and chiropractors than I would wish on my worst enemy. My experience is that a good chiropractor can do a world of good... and a bad one can really mess you up. Word of mouth is the best way to find a good one. Beware of the ones with full-page yellow pages ads, multiple partner practices, and big, fancy offices with all of the latest gadgets. Especially in SF.

I would disagree with several posters here, in that if the Dr. says you need a long series of treatments, find someone else. The best chiropractors I've ever had work on me scoff at practicioners who do multiple visits in a week or for more than a month or two. The one I use now, for emergencies, usually wants to see me about 10 weeks after a visit just to make sure everything is OK. Of course, he'll see me sooner if I'm still in pain. But I never have had visits less than a week apart.

January 20, 2003, 02:40 AM
From what I understand they do work for many conditions, though depending upon the cause of your backpain it may not work.

One option you may want to consider in order to have your care in the hands of one person so your treatments can compliment each other is to see an Osteopathic Physician. An Osteopathic doctor is a full fledged physician with 4 years of Osteopathic medical school. He or she is qualified to do everything an MD can. However, the training also includes much more muscular skeletal stuff and they can do just about all that a Chiropractor can. This way you get the best of both worlds and from the same person. If you need medical treatment they can do it, if muscular skeletal manipulation is needed they can do it.

John Galt
January 20, 2003, 02:44 AM
I'm a cheapskate & won't pay for Chiropractic. As a computer consultant dude, I have ended up helping out a half dozen of them and take therapy back in trade... They all went to the same Chiro college that is in the area:

They are all quite different in their abilities.

#1: Visit several & find one that is good.

#2: If you are, for instance, moving some firewood or whatever and feel something "go" that feels pinched after a couple hours, go for a visit immediately. By going down quickly, you can get fixed in one or two visits rather than dozens.

#3: If you don't feel a lot better, quit going!

January 20, 2003, 08:38 AM
Another Geezer checkin' in here with physical woes. I especially agree here with what Chaim said about finding ya a good D.O.

I was whinin' to a personal trainer lady friend about ongoing pain in my chest, ribs and back after being in a head-on car crash a couple of years ago. (To keep this thread gun-related, one reason that I declined an ambulance ride to the hospital was because I had a 5-holer in my shorts.)

Lady friend gave me some fancy medical term for what she suspected that I had (costra condratis sp?) and recommended a local D.O. She told me "He can fix you up - if you don't mind being bear hugged by a man! It may hurt like heck when he does it, but you will feel much better soon." She was correct on all counts.

' Appreciate the feedback above regarding some new stretching exercises. Gonna try some of those - and pineapples! :D

January 20, 2003, 10:24 AM
I just returned from a visit to a chiropractor. The reason you thought they are hockus pockus is that the medical establishment spent lots of time effort and money to stamp out chiropractic .Finally chiropractors brought them to court and won their case . But its a matter of trying it out .If its what you need, fine . If not a good chiropractor should be able to point you in the right direction for the care you need.

January 20, 2003, 10:43 AM
All good points, and selecting professionals (people who charge money to do something) from any field is pretty much the same, whether that's a mechanic, network consultant, programmer, doctor, etc.

Some are licensed and some are not, but they're all human and subject to biases toward or away from certain things.

There's an old business game I call "20 Questions" that's handy to find out if somebody WILL BS you. It's merely asking during "conversation" a bunch of relevant questions you know the answers to. If the prospect will mislead you on something you KNOW about, what's he going to do if you ask him some question you don't know the answer to? Of course, that presumes you know something about the subject.

So, having one of these is very important in selecting professionals, and the only way to get one is to study the problem and become an informed consumer, patient, etc.:

January 20, 2003, 11:28 AM
Wow! Lots of responses here, and some pretty scary stories.

I'm going to do some checking around with folks I know who use chiropractors. It's hard enough to do three days at a gun show trying to convince the "camouflage brigades" that concealed carry is in their interest, even when there's no back pain.

Blackhawk, I'll try those shoulder-rolls, too. Don't know about the pineapples, though. ;)

January 20, 2003, 11:51 AM
It sounds like you should go to an orthopedist.

Chiropractors can do good if they stick to what they know. The problem are the ones who are anti-vaccination, thing they can cure everything by adjusting th back and spine :rolleyes:

My father in law now has advanced cancer. The chiropractor he went to was one of the people who persuaded him not to get medical care when it was early on and would have made the critical difference.

She persuaded to do all this alt. medicine crap that never had a chance of working.

I personally am a bit annoyed at this alt. medicine chiropractor voodism. :fire:

January 20, 2003, 01:45 PM
try a good DC. If that doesn't work, I know a couple faith healers, and I ain't half bad with wax dolls myself... ;)

Sorry... the "voodoo" comment kinda got me goin'...

January 20, 2003, 02:01 PM
I hesitate to give advice over the internet, but I'm an MD who happens to believe that Chiropractic can be a good thing in the proper setting. What I would do first if I had serious back pain, however, is see a physician who can evaluate you and make sure you don't have anything compressing the nerves, like a "slipped disk" or other abnormality. This may require and MRI scan but I think it's worth the investment for safety's sake. If I had a significant nerve compression I would want an orthopedic (or neurosurgical) evaluation before I let anyone start bending my back or neck. Options are available, including medications, surgery, epidural steriods, or even "wait and see". If there is no dangerous spinal problem, and conservative treatment doesn't work, then a Chiropractor may (repeat, may) be helpful. I agree with those who mentioned that you should go with recommendations of friends who have had a good experience with a particulal Chiropractor if you can. Skill levels vary, and it's hard to know who you're dealing with just by looking in the yellow pages. (Same goes for doctors by the way).

Best of luck.

January 20, 2003, 02:11 PM
Thanks for some very wise and timely advice, durango! :neener:

It's exactly in line with "above all, do no harm."


January 20, 2003, 02:23 PM
I am a DC for 21 years now.
The right DCs can do great things but there are some quacks in every profession and Chiropractic has its share.
Some techniques are extremely safe and gentle.
Activator Method is well researched and clinically validated. It is now the only technique I use. A referral directory of proficiency rated doctors can be found at

Good Luck and Good Health

January 20, 2003, 04:26 PM
I have had some very good luck with chiropractors, as long as I accompanied adjustment with lower-back exercises. My chiropractor used electro-stimulation of my lower back when it was seriously hosed, and that made enough of an immediate improvement to allow me to work on fixing it for real.

Inversion boots helped a lot with both strengthening and stretching, too.

The best thing for me has been 'swimming the floor', laying on mystomache, and raiing my arms and legs straight out and lifting them, sort of like flutter-kicks. That, and lots of stretching.

January 20, 2003, 08:18 PM
Durango: I understand what you are saying. However, I will say this -- that everyone that I know who has ever had spine surgery has ended up in pain for the rest of their life. Perhaps they were so messed up that that's the best they can expect. But I am very, very, very wary of back surgeons. I truly think that, while they may have the best intentions, that they really don't understand the back near as well as they let on.

January 20, 2003, 08:42 PM
It's a valid concern. Failed back surgery syndrome, as it's called, is a real risk. I'm not an orthopod and I can't tell you the actual percentage, but it's obviously not 100% or the spine surgeons would all be out of business by now. I've seen many many successful laminectomies, but, as with any type of surgery, I would save it for a last resort. You hate to make a problem worse, and sometimes it does happen.

Just to keep this somewhere near to gun related :D , let me offer my wish that you get back to shooting real soon Monkeyleg.

January 20, 2003, 09:31 PM
Been there, done that. If you are not having the scatia (shooting pains down the leg) you probably have not ruptured the disk, yet. But it will come. This may sound crazy, but stomach crunches, or wussy sit ups will do wonders for your lower back. Just work on the gut muscles. That is what really supports your back.
BTW, I've had the laminectomy on L2 & L4. Has worked wonders for me, but I went to the Doctor that invented the tools to do the surgery with, and developed the technique. Carolina Spine Institute in Charleston SC. Look them up on the web. They have a website.

John Galt
January 20, 2003, 10:12 PM
Above all, DON'T DO NOTHING!!!!

My Mom tried the nothing route after she (5'2") rolled around a big fat man in the hospital bed. 20 years later she went and had her lower back "fused". Just a couple years later and they opened her back and then went in through the front & fused her the rest of the way up to half way up her back. Now she is worse than ever! She went to very well respected doctors.

It seems to me that the lower back ones are the ones that end up crippling you.

One Chiro I go to (pro gun!) does a lot of "deep tissue". He is about 6'3" & skinny. He uses his boney elbows to really rip me apart. It can help a lot.

January 24, 2003, 01:29 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I went to a chiropractor, and he did some x-rays. My spine curves about 1" to the left at about waist level then curves back to the right as it gets toward the tailbone. He wants to see me every day for a week or two, then three days a week for another couple of weeks, then maybe once a month. (If he's a gun owner, I should know by the end of all that ;) ).

Problem is that my insurance will only pay $675 a year for chiropractic services, and the visits are now costing nearly $100 each.

So maybe the Osteopath or Orthopedic MD is in order. Can't afford to dip into the "gun fund."

January 24, 2003, 01:36 PM
Keep us posted as the saga continues.... :D

January 24, 2003, 01:43 PM
Chiropractor = Quackopractor IMHO. I had a herniated disk about 20 years ago. Made the mistake of going to a couple of Quackopractor's first. They made me worse. In that situation, do yourself a favor and go see a Orthopaedic Surgeon or Neuro Surgeon.

There are treatments short of surgery. One is an Epidural Shot. They shoot Hydrocortisone into your spinal column and it causes the nerves to relax and not cause you so much pain. Sometimes they don't work because the problem is too far gone but try these firt. If they do work, they are a Godsend and not too intrusive. If a Dr. won't try this first, you may have a Doctor who wants to make his new Porche payment and they get alot more from surgery than an Epidural shot. They are 99% safe. They have excellent X ray stuff that guides them. They aint cheap but less than surgery and probably less than the Quackopractor who wants you to come back every week for eternity.

A Physical Therapist can be of help also. They can show you a plastic model of a spine and prove t you that for a ruptured or herniated disk, a Chiroprator is not only a joke but a liar.

I had surgery, they call it a lamenecotmy, and six Epidurals since. Life is bearable. If I dropped this 20 pound tire off my stomach, life would be even better.

Every Chiroprator I have been to says "your spine is curved". Again, look at a plastic model of a spinal column at a physical therapist's office and you will see how ridiculus this type of statement is.

Good luck.

January 24, 2003, 01:59 PM
It sounds like the chiro wants to squeeze you for every last dime that he can.

If you have something that serious than go to an orthopedist. There is a very real risk that the chiro will make it worse.

Steve Smith
January 24, 2003, 03:38 PM
This was just in the latest SI mag. They said what I have found, that Chiropractic is a valuable form of medicine for acute problems. The problem with Chiro is that the doctors will inevitably push the "wellness" BS and that's where the voodoo comes in. Go and get help, and leave when you're well.

January 24, 2003, 04:08 PM
The whole premise of chiropractor(ism) subluxation is false to begin with.

January 24, 2003, 04:13 PM
I've had good results receiving reiki for back pain. Granted, reiki seems pretty far out there on the voodoo scale. There's a good article about reiki on the site.

January 24, 2003, 07:44 PM
MoneylegThanks for all the replies. I went to a chiropractor, and he did some x-rays. My spine curves about 1" to the left at about waist level then curves back to the right as it gets toward the tailbone. He wants to see me every day for a week or two, then three days a week for another couple of weeks, then maybe once a month. (If he's a gun owner, I should know by the end of all that ).

I would find some one new. 5 days for one week and 2-3 days a week for the next few weeks. Thats a red flag. With an acute or chronic condition, it takes 3-4 visits to stabilize the region.

If you have something that serious than go to an orthopedist. There is a very real risk that the chiro will make it worse.

And you dont think that an orthopedist could make it worst?


Russ: Every Chiroprator I have been to says "your spine is curved". Again, look at a plastic model of a spinal column at a physical therapist's office and you will see how ridiculus this type of statement is.

Your Spine IS CURVED : Have you ever read Grays Anatomy or any other anatomy book you will find that you have a Lordosis in the Lumbar and Cervical Spine and a Kyphosis in the Thoracic Spine. I am sure that even a MD or PT can confirm that statement. :)

Steve Smith:
This was just in the latest SI mag. They said what I have found, that Chiropractic is a valuable form of medicine for acute problems. The problem with Chiro is that the doctors will inevitably push the "wellness" BS and that's where the voodoo comes in. Go and get help, and leave when you're well.

Talk to Emmit Smith and Arnold Swart about chiropractic and wellness. Both these professional atheletes used chiropractors to help maintain them during their professional carrers.
I know were your coming from about the wellness BS.

I am getting ready for the flames that are coming for all my little responses :)

Bottom line is there are going to be good and bad therapists. Most of us on this forum have common sense and good judgement. If you think your therapist or surgeon throwing noddles on the wall find someone else or get a second opinion. I surely wouldnt stick with someone who tells me I have to come in every day for a month.

Most of all Monkeyleg, I hope that your condition improves. If you need any advice feel free to PM me.



January 24, 2003, 11:16 PM
45R, and others, I know you're talking about normal curvature of the spine. I know that it's supposed to curve in toward the abdomen right around waist level.

Problem is, the x-rays show that my back curves toward my left side at that area, when viewed from the back (opposite direction when viewed from straight-on front view). That just doesn't seem normal.

Now, maybe they took my x-rays into Photoshop and played around. Not likely that somebody making that kind of $$ would engage in fraud, though.

Aside from not being able to work, it really ticks me off that I cannot go shooting. Especially since my old friend (and new owner of the local gun shop) has said that I can shoot all I want for free! I did his website, and I'm doing an update. As a trade-off, I get ammo, magazines, and other stuff for nearly his cost. Did I mention I can shoot for free?

And I can't stand for even one hour to shoot!:fire:

Wanna know what's even funnier? My wife pulled a muscle, seriously so, at work the other night. So she's on pain-killers and trying to take it easy.

So I'm walking around like Quazimodo, and she's dangling her arm. Why couldn't Mel Brooks be doing casting for "Young Frankenstein" right now? :confused:

January 25, 2003, 12:08 AM
I'm a firm believer in chiroprators.

Long story short. My first attempt at the pole vault landed me in about 20 years of pain. Found a chiroprator via a buddy that recomended him. After about 6 weeks with therapy was finely pain free.

That lasted about 8 months. Wrapped an Astro van around a wood utility pole courtesy of a hit on the side. Seat belts took their toll on the left side of my neck and lower back. Of course I would have been dead without the seatbelts. After more treatments I'm mostly pain free. (To keep this gun related) cheap shoulder rigs cause me great pain in the left side of my neck and upper shoulder.

Lower back pain was greatly helped by chiroprator supplied orthodic inserts for my shoes. It seems that my heals needed to be rotated outward about 1.5 to 2.0 degrees. Much better with those inserts. The pain before hand was really bad. I ate ibuprophene(sp) like it was candy. 12-14 a day.

Good chiroprators can be a really great help. Bad ones can make you hurt like hell. In my expierence if the doc takes the time to work your muscles into a bit of a relaxed state before attempting an adjustment, will make all the difference in the world.

Besides a botched vasectomy the most pain I think I have ever been in was due to a bad chiroprator when I was about 15 years old. The pain was so bad after that "treatment" I was puking. Turned me off chiroprators for many years.

The bad ones can be REALLY bad. The good one can be REALLY good.

Good luck.

ed dixon
January 25, 2003, 12:59 AM
Frankly, think it's kind of funny they claim that "doctor" title. Believe they can loosen you up a bit and maybe relieve a little stress, but I have serious doubts of any claims beyond that. A lot of back pain needs time and rest to get some relief and I think some folks credit the couple visits to the chiropractor instead of all the time in between. Also, the suggestion that something was done can help some folks begin to push themselves a little and begin to work out the kinks.

There are many bad backs in my family-- surgeries, physical therapy, TEMs units, implanted morphine pumps, chiropractic visits, the works. Some doctors have warned against surgery as anything but a last resort. My mother's surgery gave her complete relief after many months of missed work, but my aunt's multiple surgeries still left her in chronic, disabling pain for the last 20 years. I missed three weeks of work a few years ago. Spent most of that time on the floor and the pain was so insistent for a while that I only got two hours sleep in three days. And yet, I kind of feel that if a chiropractor can help then the problem couldn't have been that bad to begin with.

That said I've known people who swear by them. Some seem to become addicted to the twice weekly visits which they're encouraged to make. I've gone when I've needed a note for work and knew all I really needed was time to recover. A few pushes, "now, relax here for a few minutes"-- leaves room to make quick rounds to other prone clients, returns for a few twists--pushing upper torso while pulling the lower, a neck crack, more lying and relaxing, done. Is this really something that couldn't be taught in a weekend seminar? I assume it's a profitable racket. Hey, to each his own.

January 25, 2003, 08:22 AM
Monkeyleg, I hope your recovery is quick and your experiences are positive.
This thread is so full of misconceptions that as much as I would like to, I'll resist the urge to educate and debate the narrow minds that posted them.
Some of these folks probably meant to be helpful but I am amazed and disappointed that people would paint a whole profession with a broad brush of criticism based on such limited experience. (I had a bad experience with a dentist but I never resorted to calling all dentists quacks.)
45R, thanks for making the effort to set things straight.
Yes, I am a Doctor of Chiropractic. I enjoy what I do. I have several years of post grad study, 21 years in practice, hospital priveledges, work in a multi-disciplinary environment with other professionals, and I log many hours of formal continuing education each year.
I am also proud to be a member of this board and if it is to live up the its name "The High Road" I hope a mod closes this thread before it degenerates further.

Marko Kloos
January 25, 2003, 08:29 AM
Closed for OT drift.

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