[Tomahawk674]

Hey guys, my girlfriend's little sister is in a "pirate play". I found out they are using a real replica of a percussion double barrel .36 pistol. Since they know I am a gun person the play director wants me to make the gun go off for the play.

I took the gun home last night and cleaned it up, inspected nipples, etc. All was in working order (except right hammer stay cocked, I guess from a broken trigger).
I ran a few CCI #11 caps, but they need to be pressed in real hard or they won't go off on the first strike.

Anyways, the auditorium for the play is enormous, some people heard the caps alone and they think it should be a little louder. I'm thinking about using between 5 and 10 grains of bp. What should I place over the powder? the gun will NOT be aimed at any person.

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=107072&d=1255357888

[WilliamFeldmann]

Is this going to be a school? If so, USE NO POWDER, NO WAD. Trust me the second you do, someone is going to throw a fit and you WILL be on the losing end of whatever stink occurs.

If a community play, you MIGHT be able to get away with a little powder. I would still not use a wad for safety and keep it under 5 grains, should make plenty of pow. I would play with paper cartridges for self containment.

[Tomahawk674]

No school, but a very big church mind you. I'm good with security (real police officers) I've brought guns over to show to them before.

So does the felt wad pose a real hazzard? what should I place in front of the powder? I know that whatever I put in there needs to add some resistance or "clog". I've shot powder + wad with no ball in my revolver (because I forgot) and all I heard was "flop".

[NobleSniper]

The wad can still be a projectile between short distances ;) Have you tried a musket cap?

[Tomahawk674]

Ok, thanks for the advice on the wad, because I WAS going to use one.

I actually don't have musket caps. I think I can make the #11 CCI magnums work well enough.

[Macgille]

I use newspaper and cram it in with the ramrod. It won't travel or penetrate but will hold the powder securely enough to bang.

[arkansashillbilly]

Not trying to hijack, but has anyone seen the "mousetrap" that Dixie sells. Seems like it uses 5gr and paper wads. If it can kill a mouse, I wouldn't do it. Powder only will likely fall out or leave burns maybe at close range. I'd try for really hot caps only. Nothing in the barrel to come out. Even hot caps still pose some injury threat. Maybe offstage sound effects would be best. The flash sure would get the audience's attention though if you could make the pistol itself go bang. Some kid says ouch and a parent might complain. Then someone says you were responsible for making it safe. Maybe I'm just a spoil sport. Neat looking pistol though.

[Tomahawk674]

Newspaper was one of the option I was considering, along with just tissue paper or paper towels. I just wonder if either option will send bits of burning paper everywhere. I think I may get to try the loads tomorrow.

[Mike OTDP]

I'd look at Cream of Wheat over the powder. I've used that successfully.

[average_shooter]

What about just using a cap and putting some powdered chalk or corn starch down the barrel to be "smoke" ?

[Jim K]

Please don't touch this idea. Let them use a plastic gun (or a finger) and simulate a shot using a bass drum, or have someone holler "BANG!" The moment you introduce a real gun, even an antique, and powder or cartridges, you introduce an element of danger and controversy.

Even if the gun is not fired, someone will sue you and the church for allowing their child to be placed in danger. The newspapers will demand the heads of everyone involved in the "insane, murderous, plot to kill our children."

In addition to a possible civil suit, you can be charged with abetting assault (the gun being pointed at or near someone) and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

And that is assuming there is no injury or harm to anyone or anything. (Remember, Shakespeare's Globe Theater was burned down when a prop cannon was fired on stage and ignited the tapestry.)

So, forget it. The toy gun and drum will work as well.

Jim

[Tomahawk674]

I understand your point of view Jim, but I choose to not let that fear mentality govern my actions.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

I must agree with Jim.
I couldn't have worded the concerns that well.

[LightningMan]

IMO if you must use this pistol, just use a percussion cap. If you want to exparement trying to make it louder, see if you can somehow remove the compound from another cap and double charge a single cap, maybe that will work. I would not want to take a chance on putting anything down the barrel no matter how safe it may seem. LM

[JCT]

Cotton balls soaked in sodium silicate ( water glass ) might be a good fire proof wad....never tried it though. Other wise, a little bit of newspaper would be ok I'd think.
I would think a cap is loud enough for a blank in a play though.

[Loyalist Dave]

IMO if you must use this pistol, just use a percussion cap. YES INDEED! I worked for about 8 years semi-professionally with theatrical productions as an electricians assistant, and later with "dangerous props" (swords, daggers, guns, lanterns, etc) and pyrotechnics on stage as well as in TV production. You don't need more than caps in an enclosed space on stage. I obtained an old .32 blank pistol for starting track events when a theater did West Side Story, and that tiny blank sounded like a cannon when the shark capped Tony.

In your case it's for a kid to use, so you only need the suggestion..., a nice pop will do fine..., and as the folks have pointed out you only need to say "it's a cap gun" and you cut down on the silliness from those that fear guns. Blowing BP in an enclosed space even in very small amounts will leave a nice cloud hovering over the stage area for the rest of the show, and it will stink as well.

WAD? :what: EGAD man you don't want to be tossing anything flammable about in a stage setting..., you can't tell where it will go, and you can't be sure where it lands will not also ignite, without lots of extra work fireproofing the set. The costumes too will have to be flame proof. If for some reason you just don't like the noise enough..., then retro fit the pistol to take a musket cap and use that.

LD

[woad_yurt]

What he said. When I was much, much younger, I shot a powder-and-wad-only load out of a little .41 Derringer repro. The wadding set some brush on fire. Newspaper does send bits of burning stuff all over the place.

[arcticap]

Any kind of blank load that's designed to be more realistic to the audience in the back part of a theatre will be 10 times louder on stage which wouldn't be kind to the actors who aren't wearing hearing protection.
Loud noises are more enhanced indoors in a contained space than they are outdoors due to the reflection of soundwaves, and a loud blank load fired from a short pistol barrel may cause someone hearing discomfort. Even if it's only temporary discomfort, inflicting that wouldn't be fair to anyone which raises another issue of concern. :rolleyes:

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

You should check with State and local Fire codes to be sure you can legally do this in a commercial building -- especially since there will be a lot of other people involved and in close proximity to the gun.

[Tomahawk674]

Thanks to everyone for the tips.

Yes I will check about it's use, but you all have to understand the attitude this church and its community have. There's plenty of "dangerous" things that are put on by the church where kids participate, like archery, etc. The kids in the play (and by kids I mean around 15 yo) will also be using metal swords and daggers.
We're in the midwest, and the attitude shows.

The gun will not be fired on stage, it will at the back of the room, next to no one. It is supposed to go off to attrack the attention of the viewers who will be facing the other way.

[Macgille]

Try it in an empty theater. See how it does and make your decision. I agree about the mentality of fear, but still you should be sure.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

In band, we use two 2x4's that have a regular door hinge at one end and are about two feet long each.

Slap those two boards together (keeping fingers out of the way) and you will produce a sound that will make your ears ring.

People in an audience will DEFINATLY hear it!

We use it in the song "Sleighride" for the Christmas Concert to imitate the sound of a horse whip "SNAP" breaking the sound barrier. The percussion section has it.

[Tomahawk674]

I'm pretty familiar with those 2x4s Inspector, you're talking to a recently graduated music major (piano though, I don't touch them band instruments :p )

[Thecrazedorganist]

Unless you can keep the gun under lock and key up until the moment it's fired (and I suggest that YOU should be the one doing the firing) I wouldn't use ANYTHING other than a cap. And even then... take a look at this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum

Hexum got ahold of the gun before his scene and acted like an idiot, and it got him killed. Can you trust those kids? I hate to sound like a crank, but it's worth considering.

[Tomahawk674]

I will be having a long instruction session with the person who will fire it EVEN if it is just with a cap. And I also will do what you said about keeping the gun away from everyone until it is needed. I believe if you can trust these kids with metal swords and daggers, you can trust them with a blank gun, considering they are instructed and educated properly.

[dougiefreshhh]

id say if you run with just a cap, then what you would have is simlar to a pirate-ty looking cap gun you can pick up at wal-mart, etc...

[earplug]

Experiment with various loads prior to the event. I'd try plastic food wrap for a cartridge instead of paper or any type of wad.
I needed a explosion sound for a school play. I filled a plastic gallon jug with a mix of welding gas. Cap it off with a old flash bulb connected by a wire to a battery and switch. Worked great outdoors. Way to much for indoors. Lots of noise, flash and little risk of stuff flying around.
Today I'd use a plastic bag and make a igniter out of 0000 steel wool between the electric wires, kind of like a spark plug.
Sounds like your having fun and the kids might learn something about props and safety.

[Tomahawk674]

Test results in auditorium (it's actually more like a hall):

Cap by itself: higher pitched bang, sounds just like you cap gun. Doesn't sound very loud

cap + 5 grs 777 fffg, under a single cotton cleaning patch rammed down the barrel: A little bit louder, changes the pitch to a lower bang, less toy like. Some muzzle flames but nothing great, cotton patch falls about 10 feet forward, patch somewhat burnt but out before it hits the ground. This test was run 4 times with the same results.

Still haven't talked it over with more people to decide if it will be used this way or not. That's not my decision but I had fun playing with the gun either way...

[Jamie C.]

I've made blank charges using a piece of aluminum foil as a wad. If it's squashed down flat enough, it doesn't go far and won't burn at all.

Just don't use so much that you're basically making an aluminum ball and all should be well. A thin disk is the goal... no more than an eighth of an inch thick.

I've used that in a .44 cal pistol, a .50 cal rifle, and an inch-and-a quarter bore cannon, all with good results.

Oh, and that was usually a 20 grain load for the .44, about 40 for the .50, and a 35mm film canister full for the cannon. Makes a helluva bang and lots of smoke.



J.C.

[Loyalist Dave]

you all have to understand the attitude this church and its community have. There's plenty of "dangerous" things that are put on by the church where kids participate, like archery, etc. The kids in the play (and by kids I mean around 15 yo) will also be using metal swords and daggers.


My theater work was also in the midwest, Milwaukee and Chicago..., we also did mock hand-to-hand for things like Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet & Henry V. You are comparing apples to oranges, both are fruit, and in your case both could be weapons, but they are not nearly the same. This is not about attitude, this is about getting somebody hurt.

I believe if you can trust these kids with metal swords and daggers, you can trust them with a blank gun

Are the swords and daggars razor sharp like the real thing? Why not if you can trust them? The state trusts everybody with a driver's license to operate a care safely, yet accidents happen every day, no?

The gun will not be fired on stage, it will at the back of the room, next to no one. It is supposed to go off to attrack the attention of the viewers who will be facing the other way.

THEN you are talking about a sound effect? I thought this needed to be seen as well heard. In that case a working prop, is unneeded and irresponsible, regardless of your safety measures. A sound recording from a directional speaker would be much better than the BP pistol. Heck a firecracker in a galvanized trash can would be better. (imho)

LD

[Tomahawk674]

I have all the information I need to go on, and it's the up to the people in charge of the play to decide what they want to do, and if they want me to rig the gun for them to use.

-- "This is not about attitude, this is about getting somebody hurt.
"

To reply to this comment, the only way you could hurt yourself with the gun the way I tested it would be so stick it in your eye and squezze the trigger. If someone is informed and educated in the matter, they are not likely to do such a stupid thing.

---"Are the swords and daggars razor sharp like the real thing? Why not if you can trust them? The state trusts everybody with a driver's license to operate a care safely, yet accidents happen every day, no?"

A licence is by no means an indication of proper training. Youth can be taught to be responsible with firearms and other "dangerous" devices, and thinking otherwise would be ignorant in my opinion, just ask any older member of THR. I can trust a young person with a firearm, be it blank firing or not, if I invested time and effort teaching them proper safety procedures and rules. That is how firearm knowledge is passed on.

That is why I cannot see how the use of a percussion muzzleloader turned into glorified cap gun would be considered irresponsible. Here, most logical thinking people around me agree, including the head of security at the church who is also a fine police officer. That is not to say there aren't people who won't complain if we don't babyproof and bubblewrap everything in reach of "the children".

[jimrbto]

Well, we all may be reading about you in the news and every anti-gun nut in the country will have a field day with just this sort of stupid thing.
Thanks a lot.
Jim

[tpelle]

This thread reminds me of the incident that happened at a nearby "Mega-Church" this past Christmas. They were putting on a Very Ambitious Christmas Pageant, during which some of the actors were to be hoisted up on some sort of aerial contraption so as to "fly" over the audience while performing some sort of gymnastics! One of the actresses, who happened to be an experienced gymnast, failed to get the safety harness she was wearing concealed in her costume properly hooked up to the line in the dark of the auditorium. She fell to her death during the production.

How realistic do you need this to be?

The firecracker in the garbage can sounds like a great idea to me.

Don't let your enthusiasm get ahead of your judgement.

[scrat]

school gun black powder any one else see this as a visit to the pd. i would stay away. they can use caps or nothing by the way the nipples are probably gone from dry firing. only hope maybe to file the down around the side.

[Tomahawk674]

There was no school involved, and there was no going to the PD since I had talked it over with the chief of security at the church, who is a police officer, the firearms trainer for the department no less.

The nipples worked just fine, see the original post. The gun was used that weekend, shot by an adult for both performances (off view at the side of the stage). First performance was a charge of 5 grains of 777 fffg with 1 cotton cleaning patch rammed down. For the second performance they asked me to give it more kick so I used 7.5 grains + 2 patches rammed down. Everyone was happy, and no one got killed and I'm not in jail.

[RoostRider]

Real guns are not toys or props.... the people putting on the play should know this...

Don't let your enthusiasm get ahead of your judgement.


Too late... now, simply by virtue of the fact that no one was injured in this bad idea, he thinks it was a good idea...

[Tomahawk674]

Again, I don't see your logic. The gun was no on stage, it was out of sight and away from the crowd. The gun was shot by an adult, on both occasions: the actual owner of the gun, and then the owner's father. It was aimed at no one. Alse, the gun ownder is the husband of the woman in charge of the play, it was their call to have it. I tested the "blank load" several times, in fron of them. The cotton patches never caught on fire. The auditorium was safe on that reguard as they have used fireworks indoors.

I fail to see how that endangers anyone. By that login then, a civil war reenacment must be riddled with injuries.

But I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion as I am to my own.

[tpelle]

But your very point in defending this very bad idea is exactly the point that best condemns it - that the gun was not on stage and out of sight and away from the crowd! In that case there was ABSOLUTELY NO NEED (OR EVEN PLAUSIBLE EXCUSE) to use an actual gun! Any sort of "noisemaker" would have sufficed as a dramatic prop device, and not have carried the sensational and legal baggage of a real gun in case something had gone wrong.

Just because it worked out for you (and no one is more relieved than the folks here) indicates that your luck, not your good judgment, has saved you. JMHO.

[Tomahawk674]

I do understand your point of view. The decision to have it be off stage was made by them at the last minute. I agree that in that scenario something could have been used instead.

My point was that I do not think that the presence of a percussion pistol, loaded the way I did, fired by responsible people, would add any danger to a situation. Blank guns are fired extremely close to people in certain production in Branson MO; which I don't even agree with fully.

I know that a regular blank gun can pose a deadly thread if fired point blank, as the plastic wad can act as a projectile. This was not the case with cleaning patches, they opened up and fell in the vicinity. I will aknowledge those who dissagree with me, but all I can say is I agree to dissagree and I appreciate your input, and thank you for your concerns. I wll say if something like this turns up again I won't do it, just because of the paranoia some people have, but I don't regret doing it this one time.

[Black Toe Knives]

Cotton balls soaked in sodium silicate ( water glass ) might be a good fire proof wad....never tried it though. Other wise, a little bit of newspaper would be ok I'd think.
I would think a cap is loud enough for a blank in a play though.
Bushcrafters use cotton balls as tender in starting fires with firesteels. I start my charcoal grill with a cotton ball and firesteel

[TomADC]

http://www.17thmicoe.org/Cartridges.htm