[ochadd]

So I've been working up loads shooting 5 shot groups at 200 paces with my .223. I've got pet loads now for four different bullets that all seem to have the same pattern of 3-4 shots in a nice 0.5-1" group with one shot 1-1.5" away from the main group.

Always got the flier. A shot I know is perfect could be the one that's off. I'm not a professional marksman but when I'm off by that far I know it. Used all the tools and components I know of to change variables except a case neck turner and primer hole uniformer which I haven't bought yet. Case length, bullet weight, powder weight, trimm length, are being measured and uniform for each round.

COAL seems to be a common suggestion but moving it from touching in increments back to .02 off hasn't done it. There doesn't seem to be much measurable difference.

What would you look at next?

Edit: Should add I've burned through almost three pounds of powder trying different variables so it's been a concerted effort so far.

[fjlee]

Some random thoughts occur.......

It may not be a flyer, it may be part of the group.

Make sure that there is ample barrel cooling time between shots.

Load and shoot the rifle as a single shot, see what that does.

If you're shooting from a bench or other rest, make sure that the forearm is resting on something relatively soft. Carpet hunks and/or thick "mouse pads" work well for me, in addition to sand bags. Not something hard like a block of wood, or a brick, or whatever. Your hand under the forearm makes a very poor platform.

Fjlee in Denver

[rfwobbly]

In my experience there is a particular source of error on an AR. On most rifles you want to place the sand bag under the wooden fore stock as far forward as you can get it without touching the barrel. On a military-style AR with plastic fore stock, the fore stock is firmly attached to the barrel, there is no "floating barrel". Therefore, sand bag support out at the end of the fore stock may push the barrel around, and using a shooting sling can easily pull the barrel.

You didn't say what kind of 223 you had, but if it's an AR then you either need the competition type tubular style fore stock, or you need to sand bag back near the magazine. If you use a forearm sling, then only the very slightest tension can be used.

Hope this makes sense.

[rcmodel]

Is it always the first round?
Semi-autos often put the first manually loaded round in a different place.

Is the wind blowing?
Wind begins to move bullets around at 200 yards.

Are you getting bullet set-back on occasion?
After firing each round, eject the round in the chamber and check for bullet set-back.
(you can mark a ring around each bullet with a black Sharpie and tell if the bullets are moving on you during feeding or in the magazine).

rc

[ochadd]

It's a Remington 700 SPS tactical with a 20" barrel and 1:9 twist.

The wind has been near still whenever I'm shooting for groups.

I'm shooting prone off of sandbags front and back laying in the back of a pickup.

I'll have to try the single shot method as maybe the change in barrel temp could be causing part of it. I let the barrel cool down between groups but usually the five shot group I get off within a minute give or take.

[Quoheleth]

the back of a pickup isn't the most stable of platforms, either. If you're shooting for extreme accuracy & precision, get on the ground or a table.

Pickup beds are for "good enough."

Q

[rcmodel]

Laying in the back of a pick-up is not the best benchrest procedure I ever tried.
That right there might be your problem.

The truck springs can be moving enough to give you a flyer in every group.

Get out of the truck and down on the ground and try it.
Prone on sandbags on the ground is about as good as it gets if you can shoot prone at all. Some folks get there muscles in a bind prone and can shoot better gorups setting up at a real bench.

Even a folding picnic table or old ironing board will make a better test platform then the back of a pick-up.

rc

[GW Staar]

A very successful competitive shooter I know pushes a dry patch or two, covered with powdered graphite, through the bore before the first shot.

Don't know the science, but he says it seems to help the first shot in a clean bore stay closer to the others.

Anybody else heard of that?

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

A very successful competitive shooter I know pushes a dry patch or two, covered with powdered graphite, through the bore before the first shot.

Don't know the science, but he says it seems to help the first shot in a clean bore stay closer to the others.

Anybody else heard of that?
No, however, graphite being lead, makes a lot of sense.
Wait, we are talking copper jacketed bullets here.
Do they make copperite?

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

No one mentioned sights.
I assume by the distances you are shooting it is scoped.

May I ask what brand scope you are using?

[ochadd]

Scope is a Buschnell Elite 4200 6-24.

Will give it a go from the ground.

[1858]

No, however, graphite being lead, makes a lot of sense.

Graphite isn't lead ... it's a carbon allotrope ... kind of like coal.

ochadd, one or two flyers in a group could be due to barrel harmonics as well. Do all of your groups print in the same place on the target?

:)

[Afy]

Ok... I will go out on a limb. But are you using wind flags?
A small 5 mph cross wind can cause enough drift for the shot to drift about .25 inches at 100 yards.

Also switch to KG 12 to get the copper truly out of the barrel. Carbon... go at it with GMTEC, Brake Fluid, KG 1 or BP solvent.

Clean barrels tend to shoot good.

[ochadd]

The oddballs always hit to the right. Even with a slight right to left breeze.

I don't use wind flags but when it's gusty or windy I'm just shooting for practice. The groups that count for me would be if the wind would be <10 mph. Slight breeze would be the right description.

My cleaning regiment is quite thorough.
2-3 Patches using Shooters Choice or Boreshine. Neither seem to work very well so one cleaning would either or.
Let stand 10 minutes or so.
2-3 more patches using the same.
Brass Kleenebore brush 50-75 times.
2-3 more wet patches.
Patch until dry.
1 patch using RemOil
Lightly oil the recoil lugs.

Use a boreguide and one piece Tipton carbon fiber coated rod.

This weekend I cleaned three times and shot about 200 rounds.

[R.W.Dale]

think you're cleaning way too much. Bout the time your bore gets uniformly fouled you clean the thing and start the process all over again.

Try shooting a couple hundred rounds WITHOUT cleaning and see where that gets ya?

[1858]

The oddballs always hit to the right. Even with a slight right to left breeze.

Assuming you have consistent cheek weld and good trigger control, and you called the shot as good, I'm sticking with my theory that it's barrel harmonics and that you haven't found the OCW load. Many here don't think much of the OCW method but my results leave me with zero doubt.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

:)

[otrman]

Couple points,

1. Like others have said, get out of the truck.

2. If rifle is still wearing the factory stock, check that barrel is truly free floating. Very minor contact once rifle heats up could add to the issue.

3. Give the single shot a try. If you load all the rounds in the mag the last will be hotter than the first and change in temps can cause issues. And having rounds pushing up on the bottom of the bolt, although probably very minor, could affect the overall harmonics of the rifle. That's the way I do it for what its worth.

[gearheadpyro]

All great ideas above.
A truck is a very poor shooting platform

[TimRB]

It almost certainly is part of the group. Assuming that 200 paces is approximately 200 yards, I would suspect that your rifle is shooting about 2 inch groups, which is about 1MOA, which is quite decent accuracy. Most shooters, by far, fall into the trap of believing that the few shots that are close together or touching are the "real" group while the one off by itself is a flier.

Tim

[GW Staar]

trap of believing that the few shots that are close together or touching are the "real" group while the one off by itself is a flier.


That's because it is a flier. And yes the flier is part of the group. Agree, that 2" including the "flyer" is decent...usless you're a bench rest competitor and somebody shot a 1".;)