TX - Can a normal restaurant put up a 51% sign just for giggles?


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DAVIDSDIVAD
October 12, 2009, 02:31 PM
A restaurant that I've been going to for a long time recently up and put a 51% sign.

This restaurant does have a tiny bar in one room, but I think it's impossible that this bar makes more money than the restaurant which gets huge amounts of business from refineries and surrounding businesses every day at lunch time.


Is there any way to check if a restaurant's 51% sign is legit?


I'm talking about People's restaurant in Corpus Christi, Texas, by the way

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ArmedBear
October 12, 2009, 02:39 PM
"People's Restaurant"?

What, do they have pictures of Mao Tse Tung on the walls or something?

I used to live near the People's Food Co-op, but I sincerely doubt that anyone who works in the oil business has ever been inside the place. For one thing, they don't sell any food meat.:D

JellyJar
October 12, 2009, 02:49 PM
Call the restaurant manager or owner and ask.

DAVIDSDIVAD
October 12, 2009, 02:50 PM
Oh, OK; I'll just get the owner's phone number off of the front window. :D


Honestly, what I'm thinking is that the owner realized he could keep CHLers out with a stupid plastic sign, and if I called, he would probably say "I don't know, click." or flat out lie.


I'd rather not risk my freedom on the word of some restaurant manager.



I was wondering if the TABC or someone kept a log of "official" 51% bars, or something along those lines.

ArmedBear
October 12, 2009, 02:53 PM
You might be surprised at a restaurant's profit centers.

A $4 Budweiser is generally much more profitable than a $6 sandwich that comes with a pickle, salad, fries and condiments.

DAVIDSDIVAD
October 12, 2009, 03:02 PM
I was hoping more TX people would post.


ArmedBear, the law specifically says 51% of "revenue" not net profit.

ArmedBear
October 12, 2009, 03:07 PM
Ah.

We don't have such a law here, so I'm not familiar with it. Here, you can carry as long as you're legal to drive.

But maybe they sell a lot of beer with lunch?:D

John E.
October 12, 2009, 03:08 PM
If it were me, I'd stop patronizing the place once they put up the sign - wouldn't want to give them my money.

ArmedBear
October 12, 2009, 03:11 PM
If it were me, I'd stop patronizing the place once they put up the sign - wouldn't want to give them my money.

Me, too.

I mean, a bar and grill would probably have to post the sign, so I wouldn't blame them. But if they do it just because they want to? Hell with them.

Probably wouldn't eat at "People's" either.

NightStalkerTX
October 12, 2009, 03:13 PM
There are several points here:

1. If the restaurant has posted the incorrect sign, you can tell by looking at their actual license. If on the license it says "License = Blue" they are not 51% and you can carry in the establishment regardless of how they've posted. If it says, "License = Red", then they are 51% and you cannot legally carry in the establishment.

2. In Texas, the law regarding prohibition on CHL holders to not carry in places that receive 51% of their REVENUE (not profit) from alcohol sales for CONSUMPTION on the PREMISES is just that. It doesn't matter what sign they have posted -- it is up to the CHL holder to know whether it is, or is not, a 51% establishment, and the only positive way to tell is to look at the license itself.

3. As of 01 September, 2009 it is a defense to prosecution that the business did not properly post its 51% sign if they are, in fact, a 51% establishment. This doesn't mean a CHL holder won't be charged for carrying in a 51% establishment when that business failed to post the warning sign or posted the incorrect sign, but he can raise it as a defense during trial, and should be acquitted. That doesn't help in this case because it is the converse instance. The business posted 51% when they are not, likely, actually a 51% business.

Finally, if the business is posting the incorrect sign, you can contact the TABC. They will send an agent to the establishment and force them to post the correct sign consistent with their actual license. My guess is that this place doesn't want the big ugly 30.06 sign on their front door, so they chose to post a 51% sign instead. Or, even more likely, the TABC sent them a packet of all the signs, and someone picked the wrong one from the box.

swiftak
October 12, 2009, 04:19 PM
Not to sound like a stupid hick, but whats a 51% sign?

jon_in_wv
October 12, 2009, 04:26 PM
Look at the post right above yours.

2. In Texas, the law regarding prohibition on CHL holders to not carry in places that receive 51% of their REVENUE (not profit) from alcohol sales for CONSUMPTION on the PREMISES is just that. It doesn't matter what sign they have posted -- it is up to the CHL holder to know whether it is, or is not, a 51% establishment, and the only positive way to tell is to look at the license itself.

The sign is merely a notice of the above.

Don't worry, I live in West Virginia and you DON'T sound like a stupid hick. I am very familiar with what that sounds like. :)

Frog48
October 12, 2009, 04:58 PM
Contact TABC. They'll send an officer out to make sure the signage is correct, and if necessary remove any improperly posted 51% signs.

BlayGlock
October 12, 2009, 05:07 PM
I would suggest contacting TABC if you want to keep going there, but honestly why would you want to support this place if they are doing what you think they are? They better have awesome fish tacos or something.

texas bulldog
October 12, 2009, 05:27 PM
we shouldn't necessarily assume it was done in malice. as a previous poster said, they may have simply put up the wrong sign in ignorance of both TABC and CHL rules.

the way i see it, you have two options if you wish to continue eating there:
1. contact the manager or owner, and try to ascertain their motive in putting up the sign and/or educate them as to their mistake.
2. contact TABC and have them handle it.

of course, a third option is just stop going there.

and as an aside, i really wish texas didn't have such hang-ups around liquor laws. why would setting foot in a bar make an otherwise responsible citizen suddenly start shooting up the place? no rule says you must drink in the bar. my own bar days are pretty much done, but i would still like to see the state chill out on this issue. too many off-limits places as it is...

NightStalkerTX
October 12, 2009, 05:48 PM
If you just step into the facility and look at their license you will learn immediately whether they are really 51% or not. If not, it doesn't matter what sign they have posted, you can carry there. The sign is meaningless. The converse is true, as well -- f you run into an establishment that has merely posted the "Unlawful possession" sign for places that sell or serve alcohol but do not derive 51% of their revenue for sale for on-site consumption, or not posted at all, yet really does get 51% of its revenue from sale of alcohol for on-site consumption, you cannot legally carry there regardless of the sign. You can just defend yourself in court at trial, and should win.

HKUSP45C
October 12, 2009, 05:56 PM
we shouldn't necessarily assume it was done in malice. as a previous poster said, they may have simply put up the wrong sign in ignorance of both TABC and CHL rules.

the way i see it, you have two options if you wish to continue eating there:
1. contact the manager or owner, and try to ascertain their motive in putting up the sign and/or educate them as to their mistake.
2. contact TABC and have them handle it.

of course, a third option is just stop going there.

This is a very well reasoned post full of very good advice. Plenty of 51% signs go up in the wrong places out of ignorance, not malice. The underlying cause is this: TABC sends a "packet" to everyone who requests and is granted a liquor license, which covers both kinds of licenses and has ALL of the signs one could need regardless of which type of license they actually hold. Many people just put up all the signs because they don't know any better. It is not against the law to walk past an improperly posted 51% sign (or an improperly posted 30.06, for that matter, such as the ones at George R. Brown during gun shows).

and as an aside, i really wish texas didn't have such hang-ups around liquor laws. why would setting foot in a bar make an otherwise responsible citizen suddenly start shooting up the place? no rule says you must drink in the bar. my own bar days are pretty much done, but i would still like to see the state chill out on this issue. too many off-limits places as it is...

Southern Baptists have run the majority of this state for many generations, the demon rum is high on their list for needing control to keep people from getting drunk. Why do you think bars don't open until after church on Sundays?

Frankly, it's awfully stupid if you ask me.

TexasRifleman
October 12, 2009, 06:01 PM
Frankly, it's awfully stupid if you ask me.

It's better than it used to be. I remember when I was young it was illegal to sell underwear on Sundays...... among many other items. Bizarre.....

Phatty
October 12, 2009, 07:35 PM
I remember when I was young it was illegal to sell underwear on Sundays
No business (with very few exceptions) was allowed to be open on Sunday's in the town (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Holland,_IL) I grew up in. It's still the same today.

JellyJar
October 12, 2009, 09:49 PM
I lived in Texas for 26 years and I know most of the CHL laws fairly well. If any business wants to prohibit CHLers all they have to do is to post a 30.06 sign at their entrances. Doesn't matter if they sell alcohol or not. They don't have to put up any "phony" 51% signs.

tx_atty
October 12, 2009, 10:23 PM
I have not read the various responses but, NO, they may NOT put up the 51% sign just for the hell of it. Contact the management and ask if they in fact get 51% of annual revenue from on premises consumption of alcohol (in which case, it is valid). If not, ask why they have the sign up. If they are doing it just to be jerks, report them to the TABC. The proper sign would be (ironically) the 30.06 Criminal Trespass by License Holder sign.

jimmyraythomason
October 12, 2009, 11:24 PM
Don't feel bad swiftak,I never heard of a 51% sign until just now and never heard of a 30.06 sign until I joined THR.

bdickens
October 13, 2009, 06:36 AM
If it were me, I'd stop patronizing the place once they put up the sign - wouldn't want to give them my money.
51% signs are required by law.

Flyboy
October 13, 2009, 07:27 AM
bdickens, 51% signs are only required by law if the establishment actually makes 51% (or more) of it's revenue from sales of alcohol for consumption on the premises. The OP's question derives from the fact that he doesn't think the establishment sells that much alcohol, thus making the sign A) false and B) not required.

That said, I tend to agree with John E. if the owner posted the sign with the intent of keeping permit-holders out. If it was an honest mistake, let it go, but if he put it up with the intent to discriminate against permit-holders, then I wouldn't want to favor him with my money, either. I would, however, press the issue to force him to put up the big ugly sign (30.06) to display his opinions more visibly, though.

DAVIDSDIVAD
October 13, 2009, 11:03 AM
Thanks for the help, guys.


Should the license= blue be posted on the front door as well or will I have to ask to see this?

Art Eatman
October 13, 2009, 12:08 PM
It's common for any licenses to be posted near the cash register.

hmphargh
October 13, 2009, 12:20 PM
Thanks for the help, guys.


Should the license= blue be posted on the front door as well or will I have to ask to see this?

It is required to be posted in a conspicuous place, just ask to see it and they'll point you to the wall that it is hung on. You may want to disarm while doing this.

mec
October 15, 2009, 10:35 AM
Our local convention center posted 51 percent signs because there was a shortage of the larger pc 30-06 signs. Now they don't post anything because the legislature took away the right of public buildings to exclude licensed carry. During gunshows, temporary 30-06 signs appear and may be legal because the gun show organizers are a private entity and in control of the premises.

a local grocery that primarily catered to non english speaking aliens posted the sign and it remained up even after a new company with the same customer base took over. That cost them a couple of thousand dollars from me alone. Lately, I noticed the signs have disappeared but I have gotten out of the habit of shopping there anyway. After the chl law passed, there was a flurry of sign postings - often because of activism by anti gun groups who convinced the businesses that they would be liable if they didn't post. When significant numbers of customers disappeared, so did the vast majority of the signs. Currently, posted premises are pretty much confined to grant supported private leftist entities or businesses run by doctrinal communists who generally don't survive in business very long anyway.

DAVIDSDIVAD
October 15, 2009, 11:39 AM
thanks, Art and hmpharpg.

iflyabeech
May 9, 2010, 12:43 AM
thanks, Art and hmpharpg.
I saw this sign in People's today and googled "People's Restaurant 51%" and found this thread.. I read the liquor license while I was there and it read "License = Blue" I posted this to Texas 3006.com as well.. Hope that helps...

danez71
May 9, 2010, 09:48 AM
If its not a 51%.....

I wonder if they put the 51% sign up because the dont want people to carry inside and also dont want to be the bad guy.... they can blame the No Guns policy on "The Man".

just a thought

iflyabeech
May 9, 2010, 11:04 AM
I dunno....they just hosted our local tea party.....Inotified TABC that they were displaying an incorrect sign...so we will see what happens

mec
May 9, 2010, 11:12 AM
blame the No Guns policy on "The Man".


Thats exactly what the little man who was president of Fidelity Bank 1901 Laker Shore Drive did rigth after the chl law went into effect. One of the customers complained about it because he regularly deposited large business receipts. The little fellow said that it was mandiitory to post the 30=06 sign because of a edict from the Banking Commission. This was an outright falsehood as this was the only bank in town with such a posting. I don't know what purpose the falsehood served since both parties knew it was untrue but it may just be a case of telling a lie when the truth would serve better.
I dont' know if that bank is still signed or if the little fellow is still manager.

GEM
May 9, 2010, 04:30 PM
The 30.06 sign was a genius move. It trashed all those little gun with red circle signs!

Deltaboy
May 9, 2010, 04:38 PM
Yep the 30.06 sign has opened some places to CCW because the owner doesn't want that Big OLE Sign as the State mandates.

mp510
May 9, 2010, 07:02 PM
I am attaching a copy of their record from TABC.

I'm going to presume that if they are posting the sign, the probably do derive the required percentage of sales- especially considering that they have gotten themselves in trouble before for not posting requisite signage.

JellyJar
May 9, 2010, 09:17 PM
I sent them an email asking if they still had the 51% sign. Here is my email and their reply:

From: xxxx@isp.com
Subject: 51% sign
Date: May 9, 2010 12:10:33 PM CDT
To: peoplesrest@sbcglobal.net

Are you still required to post the 51% sign because of how much alcohol you sell?

Thanks

-------------------

From: peoplesrest@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: 51% sign
Date: May 9, 2010 4:30:35 PM CDT
To: xxx@isp.com

I dont sell much alchohol and I have never been told to post any type of sign concerning 51%.

thanks,
joe

I wonder where the OP got the idea that they had posted a 51% sign?

iflyabeech
May 9, 2010, 09:54 PM
as far as I know, they cannot have both "License = Blue" on the liquor license and a 51% sign.

They do have a 51% sign posted at the front entrance and they do have "License = blue" on the liqour license...I verified both last night.

Here is a picture I took of the 51% sign posted just inside the front door!
http://i43.tinypic.com/161x8ud.jpg

iflyabeech
May 9, 2010, 10:01 PM
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/faq/general.asp

10. I have seen two types of signs posted in retail establishments regarding concealed weapons. What is the difference between the two?

All alcoholic beverage retailers must post one of two firearms signs.

The 51% sign is required to be posted on the premises of establishments where the possession of any concealed weapon is illegal. These are establishments that are licensed to sell alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption whose alcohol sales constitutes more than half of their gross receipts. These signs have 51% in large red letters superimposed over the warning which notes that possession of a concealed weapon on the premises is a felony.

Establishments licensed to sell alcoholic beverages for off-premise consumption or establishments licensed to sell for on-premises consumption whose alcohol sales are 50% or less of total gross receipts are required to post a sign that warns that the unlicensed possession of a concealed weapon is a felony. The holder of a concealed handgun license may lawfully possess a concealed handgun on these premises.

iflyabeech
May 10, 2010, 10:21 AM
UPDATE:


ok.. a TABC officer just called to let me know he received my complaint and was sending an officer by there this afternoon to correct the sign!

I will have to stop by later this week and check to see what was done!

paul
May 10, 2010, 02:19 PM
As much as I think Tejas is a bit bass-ackwards with their no OC law,
I do love the fact that we can call the beer cops and tell them that we can't legally carry our pistols into a business...
and they will rush out to correct that!:D

p

twitch1706
May 10, 2010, 03:24 PM
I keep reading 30.06 sign, and all I can think of is a vinyl silhouette of an M1 Garand.

zoom6zoom
May 10, 2010, 03:38 PM
I remember when I was young it was illegal to sell underwear on Sundays......
That's because they wanted you to wear your holey underwear to church.

GEM
May 10, 2010, 04:12 PM
Was that a secret in Victoria, Texas?

Haha - thanks for making me laugh!

JellyJar
May 10, 2010, 07:42 PM
Could it be that the owner of the place doesn't know what he is doing?:cuss:

wishin
May 11, 2010, 09:20 AM
Texas law at least gives the armed citizen (and the BG) an indication of the whether one can legally carry there; the new gun bill waiting to be signed in Georgia requires the gun owner to ask the bar owner if he allows concealed carry! No signage.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 11, 2010, 02:30 PM
NightStalkerTX gave the A+ answer and good advice.

rattletrap1970
May 11, 2010, 02:35 PM
I have never heard of such a thing. We don't have that in CT.

.378 Wby
May 12, 2010, 06:05 PM
Doesn't matter if the sign is accurate or not. If the OWNER of the restaurant wants to bar concealed carry, the owner has that right. If putting up a sign is his method of making his wishes clear, the owner is under no obligation to provide an accounting to patrons.

If, on the other hand, he's making 51% and claiming that he's not so that CCW is allowed on his premises, then he's required to prove that to the state.

Personally I think "Shall not be infringed" means what it says.

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