How is this right ?


October 12, 2009, 06:26 PM
It's all listed on the ATF Form 4473.

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?
Are you a fugitive from justice?
Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Are you a nonimmigrant alien?
Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
Are you an alien illegally in the United States?
Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?
Have you been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner.
Have you been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?
Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?

Now on several of these questions there is no relevance to the laws written on non ownership of guns .

Dishonorable discharge ? it is not ilegal to own a gun just buy a new one from ffl dealer .

unpaid traffic tickets qualify as fugitive from justice .
any other crime that would carry one year . that doesnt disqualify from owning just buying also.

domestic violence : screaming at your old lady is domestic violence , unless its felonious it would not be ilegal to own a firearm just purchase new .

Does this make sense to everybody except me ?

Just b/c somebody says they couldnt pass a bg check doesnt mean that they cant OWN guns it just means that they cant qualify to purchase a new one from an ffl .
If this was accurate then these conditions would also mean that a person couldnt vote either , but , if they can legaly vote they can legaly own fire arms .

it is not our jobs as private sellers of firearms to honor the conditions of the federal applications . How could it be ? The conditions on the form are not all reasons that prohibit these people from lawfully owning .

Somebody post up any federal laws that say otherwise .

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October 12, 2009, 06:35 PM
Somebody post up any federal laws that say otherwiseThe sticky to the relevant law is located at the top of the Legal forum. Here's a shortcut to 478.32:

There are specific legal definitions to 'fugitive from justice' and 'restraining orders' that cover the question asked on the 4473 quite well. The CFR at the link I provided does, in fact, show all of the relevant prohibitions that you seem to believe are not covered by Federal law.

You also seem to be confusing 'owning' with 'buying'. The 4473 is a point-of-sale form only. However, the questions on the 4473 are barriers to purchase via both dealer and private sales, as evidenced by the phase in the law that reads:

No person may sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or
ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe
that such person: [list of prohibitions follows...]

October 12, 2009, 06:38 PM
Now on several of these questions there is no relevance to the laws written on non ownership of guns .

Which one do you not think is related to a Federal law?

As far as I know they are all covered.

October 12, 2009, 06:50 PM
How can there be a difference in owning and buying ? firearm posession is firearm posession ... This is contradicting isnt it .

Jim K
October 12, 2009, 06:50 PM
Some would not be disqualifying except for the statement "convicted by any court" and "subject to a court order." Conviction on a domestic violence charge takes more than "screaming at your old lady"; it means physical, brutal violence. And yes, those limitations are covered in the law.

Those things are relevant to gun purchase for the obvious reason that a felon or a person who brutalizes his wife or children should not own a gun. (That no laws will prevent either is beside the point - the law bans the sale.)

Besides, a felon is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, not just from buying one.


October 12, 2009, 07:00 PM
right I understand that a felon is not allowed to own or buy . The concept of not being able to buy , but , being able to own would lead me to beleive that the NRA would have already jumped all over this due to it being so contradictive that it seems easy to challenge and beat .

October 12, 2009, 07:27 PM
it means physical, brutal violence
It doesn't have to be brutal. Spitting on your girlfriend would qualify.

October 12, 2009, 07:58 PM

Until very recently a convicted felon in Texas could own a firearm if he owned it prior to being convicted. He just couldn't buy any more at least not from a licensed dealer. This was unless he was convicted of a felony involving violence and or the use of a weapon. In that case his weapons were confiscated. Not all felons are violent. I thought this was sensible in the case of non-violent felons after all when they get out and go back to being normal citizens they should retain the right to protect themselves in their own homes. However our friends in the media found out about how the terrible state of Texas allowed this and raised hell and so the law got changed. I personally don't care if criminals own firearms because as long as they know we law abiding citizens aren't prevented from owning them they have to be much more selective and careful when choosing their victims.
I read a book written by Ann Coulter she espoused gun ownership in one of the chapters. She talked about living in Washington DC where there was a complete ban and was about to be mugged in broad daylight by a smiling male. Smiling she said because he knew she had to be unarmed. She spotted him from a good ways off approaching her while crossing a foot bridge and had no where to go. Luckily a good man arrived on the scene just in time and foiled the would be mugger.

October 12, 2009, 09:42 PM
18 USC 922 (g) It shall be unlawful for any person -
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable
by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien -
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under
dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that -
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(C)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

Federal Law. Even though Texas law may have said a convicted felon can own a gun, the Feds trump that. Not sayin I agree with Uncle Sugar's definition, just tellin you how it is.

October 12, 2009, 10:58 PM
I understand Divemedic. Just telling how it used to be. I personally take the 2nd amendment literally and don't believe the feds should be able to regulate small arms in any way at all. Guess I probably have more in common with the libertarian point of view though I don't identify myself as one. I have met many people in my life that aren't criminals but will only buy from individuals so as to not create any records and I don't blame them. It's none of the government's business.

October 13, 2009, 12:29 AM
I have never submitted any paperwork to buy guns ever . I have a nice collection and have had many more in the past . I am 36 yrs old and I just dont believe in having to submit anything that ties me to a gun . I am not very familiar with the process that is required b/c I have 0 first hand exp. This is why I am asking questions and too kind of settle an argument between friends . I dont have any restrictions that I can tell by what has been posted , but , my business is my business and the more untraceable guns that are out there the harder it would be to gather them all up . I think this in a sense keeps the gov. honest to a degree .

Art Eatman
October 13, 2009, 12:24 PM
The OP question has been answered, and we don't need to drift off into political philosophy.

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