[Shmackey]

OK, I've come to understand that it's my duty as a member of the human race to own a semi-auto rifle. I won't bother with the politics; we all know them and besides, I'm grumpy today, so let's not get me started...

Thing is, I want this rifle to do certain things. I want it to accept magazines that take more than 10 rounds (as, of course, most were originally designed to do). And I want it to cost not-so-much. Those two details are pointing me away from the ARs. I am not going to spend $800 or $1000 just to get an AR that's at least eight years old.

I also want it to be shockingly reliable. (So far, I know what you're all thinking.) But I also want the parts to be modular or, at the very least, repairable with other drop-in parts. I don't know if AKs really fit the bill here. Maybe they do. Don't know.

For whatever reason, I don't think SKSs and big magazines tend to go hand in hand, although I may have seen them together.

It would also be ideal if this rifle used a fairly inexpensive (surplus?) cartridge, like .223, .308, 7.62x39, or something similar.

So I guess part of the question here is, what else is there besides AKs that fits the bill? I know that there are other types of rifles I don't know much about, like FALs. What would you suggest?

[biere]

The ak is easy to mess with until you want to change the barrel, from what I have read it is pressed in so it is not so common to hand assemble these.

Why do you have to have an older ar? New bushmasters will be at your prices mentioned, 800 or so, but any ar that is postban can legally use the older magazines. So maybe a used one is a consideration.

I never got too far into any sks rifles, but some had longer mags from the factory and some might have detachable mags as well. I read some things about how they were a bit different than aks in the trigger design and decided I was happy with an ak.

The fal can cost a lot, but is a nice rifle. Cetme and L1A1 are a couple other 308 rifles to look into, but some are considered to not be reliable out of the box.

Depending on what you are wanting for parts swapping the ak of course fits in well. And there are some upscale aks made in the usa that seem to be a lot nicer than the common sar series stuff.

Hopefully others will have some more specifics for you.

I have a sar 1, I like it but it is a cheap decently accurate gun.
I have a fal, it is an expensive awesome gun.
I had a bushmaster ar, it was reliable and very nice but I traded it for something else that was much harder to get.

[itgoesboom]

I am a little confused about one point that you made in your question, when you talked about wanting the capability to use magazines larger than 10 rounds, and you said that was one reason why you were exluding an AR. You can get plenty of magazines for all the AR's on the market. An AR doens't have to be preban to accept or use preban mags. Unless you are in California.

With that being said, an AR will run you anywhere from $700-1000 or more.

Ok, now with that out of the way,

Here are some choices for you, some which meet all of your requirements, some that meet only a few.

AR-15-fairly lightweight, pretty reliable, accurate, easy to get ammo and accesories, but they cost $$$$ to get a good one.

AK-47 clone- SAR-1, VEPR, ect. Should cost you from $300-$600, depending on what you decide to get. Whatever you get will last you a lifetime, and will be very durable. Magazines are cheap and easy to get, and so is the ammo. Not as accurate as an AR, but they will do.

M-1A- Civilian version of the M-14, uses .308, very accurate, but a bit heavier than the AR, and also longer. SA M-1A usually run above $1000. Also, the preban mags for the M1A cost a bunch, if you get the mil surplus, or SA.

FAL- Accurate, but heavy. There are lots of different ways you can get one, lots of companies that put them together. From what most people say, the DSA's are the best. Preban mags are fairly common and inexpensive.

CETME- Basically a spanish version of the H&K G-3, although it was actually designed before the G-3 was made. Same engineers though, and operates pretty similarly. Some will take G3 mags, although, some will only take the CETME mags (almost identical). Either way they are cheap. Some people claim they get good accuracy, but even if its not a tack driver, it will do. The biggest downside is that they are put together by the Drunken Monkeys @ Century Arms, so it might need some work to get it to work properly. But considering that it should only cost you about $300-$400 for the rifle, and only $4 per 20rd mag, you will have plenty of money left to get it the way you like it.

SKS- Reliable, decent accuracy, although its not going to win you any marksmanship awards, but its durable. Ammo is dirt cheap, and the rifle can be purchased for under $150. Biggest downside is probably that its got a fixed 10rd mag, but even thats not really a problem. Stripper clips are cheap, and very quick to load. Plus they weigh less high cap mags.

Any of these rifles should work well for you. If i had the cash, i would probably spring for a DSA FAL, or if i didn 't have enough for that, i really like the CETMEs, but, whatever you get, you should be plenty happy.

I.G.B.

[Dave R]

itgoesboom did a great job of sumarizing the options.

I went through pretty much the same though process you have. I wound up with a CETME. Yes, drunken Century monkeys left me with a slightly canted sight block and I had to do surgery on the sights. Now its a fine rifle. Easy to shoot accurately with the aperture sight. Stay away from the 100 yd combat "V".

Latest reports say that Century's quality has improved. Here's the CETME forum with lots more info.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Headlines&BID=30&SID=1655538

[Shmackey]

Coulda' sworn I replied to this a few minutes ago... I'm getting old.

Thanks for clarifying the AR mag thing. I was working under the idea that postban rifles wouldn't take preban mags, kind of like some of the Romanian AK clones.

I'm seeing lots of 20- and 30-round mags for SKSs on Gunbroker.com now. I wonder if you have to modify the rifle to take these detachable ones. None of the rifles themselves specify that they take detachable mags.

[HSMITH]

Buy a FAL reciever, parts kit and a video armorers course!! Less than $600 (plus refinish costs if you need to be snobby LOL) will have you a truly great battle rifle. Mags are dirt cheap, ammo readily available, and the design is a world standard. When you can outshoot your FAL then look toward the match AR or M1A.

I have had a couple SKS, still have one. They are reliable, but that is it. Accuracy? Even a so-so shooter can outshoot most SKS types. The bolt being able to take strippers is good, but mag changes are just as fast. I just can't warm up to the SKS for anything but a close range people shooter.

[itgoesboom]

Shmackey,

Yes, there are larger magazines that you can get for an SKS, 20,30, 40, and most of them are removable just like for most other rifles. The work in pretty much any SKS, However, most people have come to the conclusion that the larger detachable mags are mostly junk. Some people have luck with them, but most people have problems with them. If you decide on an SKS, i would recommend keeping the standard non-detachable 10 rounder, or if you really want more rounds in a mag, get the non-detachable 20 rounders, since those tend to work better.

One thing you might consider doing is choosing the cartridge that you would like the rifle to be, then you can go from there.

Each of the cartridges have different strengths and different weaknesses.

.223 is highly lethal at short range, but its lethality drops when its velocity drops below 2700 fps. Depending on the length of the barrel, that might only be 200 yards or less. Also its pretty inexpensive.

.308 hits hard out to several hundred yards, and can pierce cover better than the .223 or 7.62x39, but it weighs more, and if used in the home, it will go through several walls before stopping.

7.62x39 is right inbetween the two in many ways. Lighter than the .308, so its easier to carry more, and penetrates cover better than standard .223.

I.G.B.

[cheygriz]

I think a VEPR from Robinson Arms in the $450-$600 range would fit your requirements perfectly.

I prefer the 5.45X39MM myself, but the 7.62X39 is superb as well.

Reliability is as near to absolute as anything ever disigned by a human being.

Hi-cap mags are dirt cheap in either caliber, ammo is dirt cheap in either caliber, accuracy is more than adequate, and parts replacement is easy, in the extremely unlikely event that it should become necessary, as they are built like army tanks.

[Shmackey]

Is a VEPR always just a version of an AK? I saw this (http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=7079399) just now on gunbroker.

[cheygriz]

http://www.robarm.com/

go to this website for more info.

The VEPR is basically an American AK clone built on a Russian RPK LMG action. It's a bit heavier than other AK clones because of the LMG action, but it's as rugged as a tank.

[Forseti]

AR's are NOT that expensive. And if you are very particular...build your own. Its EASY if you purchase a fully assembled upper. And TALK about customization!

All you need to get is a lower receiver from a FFL holder. Olympic Arms makes a nice, forged one. http://www.olyarms.com

Then, get a kit from somebody...this you can do over the internet legally, since "gun parts" don't require an FFL.

Look at http://ar15.com/content/docs/assembly/lower/ to see if you have the necessary skills to build the lower receiver.

Look at http://www.jtdistributing.com/ to see some kit combos. You can also call them if you want something they don't have on the web.

Example...a fully floating 20" barrel flattop with a bipod would run around $700, with lower receiver, done the way you want...buy some 30 round mags (I found four for $15 each) and off you go...

I did this...it was my first AR. No problems. VERY reliable, no failures.