CZ 527 Carbine - .223 or 7.62 X 39?


PDA






Cableman
November 3, 2003, 10:37 PM
http://www.huntingmag.com/huntingmag/hunting_gear/HMcz_0924A.jpg

http://www.cz-usa.com/product.detail.php?id=15

I am going to order this gun tomorrw, but I can't decide which one to get.

The 223 or the 7.62 X 39?

I am leaning on the 223 because I have an AR15, so the cartridge is the same...but the 7.62 x 39 is a bigger bullet and a little more punch. I think the 223 would be more accurate, but how is the 7.62 X 39 for accuracy in a bolt action? They are both cheap to shoot, I think the 7.62 X 39 is even cheaper than the 223.

So which one to get, the 223 or the 7.62?

If you enjoyed reading about "CZ 527 Carbine - .223 or 7.62 X 39?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
JShirley
November 3, 2003, 11:08 PM
Please understand I am prejudiced.

I believe a .30 round is more versatile than a .22. You can always fire a heavier bullet at varmints, but a varmint bullet at larger game won't work very well. 7.62x39mm is also the cheapest centerfire round one can find. I found a recent American Rifleman that fired around 2" groups with the 7.62 version. For a light, short-barrelled carbine, that's just fine.

Yes, you will have difficulty hitting targets over 200 meters, in all likelihood- but you already have an AR for that, don't you?

Best,

John, future 527 owner

Preacherman
November 3, 2003, 11:40 PM
Get both, then you won't have to choose between them! :D

JohnMc
November 4, 2003, 12:15 PM
The 7.62x39 would be a deer-getter. I've got a 527 american in .223 and it shoots great. I'd like the carbine in 7.62x39. So, I'd ammend Preacherman's reccomendation and get both, but with the .223 in the American or Varmint model and the 7.62x39 in the carbine!

I recall that the recent Dope Bag article mentioned that the 7.62x39 CZ 527's bore was actually .308 and that most American ammo makers use .308 bullets, so this would shoot American manufacture bullets best. The commie specs (what's equivilent to SAAMI?) for 7.62x39 is a .311 bullet. As the article said, it's not a big deal unless you're looking to split MOA's.

JohnMc

Lawyerman
November 4, 2003, 02:27 PM
I have a 527 in 7.62x39 and it is a wonderful rifle. It will probably train my sons to hunt. I would suggest getting the safety modified to work in the American way regardless of which gun you get.

TX65
November 6, 2003, 09:23 AM
My question has more to do with CZ Rifles in general.

How do the CZ rifles compare to other european rifle makers such as Sako, Steyr and Tikka with respect to quality, fit and finish, etc?

My father had a couple of BRNO rifles and I remember them being beautiful pieces of work. Reading on the CZ website, it appears that CZ was the manufacturer of BRNO branded rifles.

Kjay
November 6, 2003, 10:51 AM
Out of curiousity - anyone know what scope mounts this carbine takes? Factory supplied or are these available from most makers?

Jaywalker
November 6, 2003, 11:00 AM
TX65,

CZs are good rifles for the money, but if you want Sako quality fit and finish, you'll have to buy a Sako. From what I've read, though, they're probably equally accurate. I have read some extremely positive things about CZ rimfires, and some distubing things, however, about some Sako rimfires. Go to www.rimfirecentral.com for those issues.

Jaywalker

Cableman
November 6, 2003, 01:54 PM
Well I got the 223 version

Rings are available from CZ, Millet, and another manufacturer which I can't remember now.

I just ordered the CZ rings when I ordered the rifle.

I will give a report when I get mine.

RustyHammer
November 6, 2003, 02:55 PM
Depends on what you're going to use it for.

For target shooting and small game, I'd go with the .223.

For larger game and maybe as a "truck gun" job, I'd go with the 7.62.

/Rusty

Sharpshooter223
November 6, 2003, 04:47 PM
I'm all for the 223 over the 7.62x39. I've had great luck with the .223 caliber and I've had terrible experiences with the other. Actually about a month ago a friend came over with his 7.62x39 ruger and I sighted it in for him and was dissapointed that he WASTED a redfield 3x9 scope on it. The ammo for them runs about the same price especially at gun shows. .223 .223.

JohnMc
November 6, 2003, 05:03 PM
Rings are available from CZ, Millet, and another manufacturer which I can't remember now.
Warne and Burris also make rings. B-square makes a CZ mount to weaver base adaptor, for those who want a weaver mount.

Sharpshooter,
Which type of bullet, commblock or USA manufacture? I'm curious as how this compares with the American Rifleman Dope Bag article.

John Mc

Sharpshooter223
November 6, 2003, 05:27 PM
well in my Remington 700 vss .223 I've used many types of bullets... the sierra remington hornady nosler several others and factory ammo all shot about half inch groups at 100 yards and the best bullets i've shot through it are the hornady V-Max bullets. They are high but they bring it down to just under a 1/4" group. In my browning A-bolt medallion .223 so far i've only shot one type of ammo I haven't had it very long. I've been shooting the Ultramax 52gr. ammunition which is just cheap factory shells and they shoot under 1/10" every time best group with them was .006 and I haven't seen any reason to switch over to any other bullet just yet. In the remington I've only used 40 45 50 52 and 55 grain bullets they all shot about the same groups once I perfected the powder charges.

TooTech
November 6, 2003, 11:08 PM
I've got two CZ527 rifles in .223, both are the Lux version. One for me and one for my son. Excellent rifles, beautiful wood, I especially like the single-set trigger. External finish is very nice, some persons have reported that you might want to glass bed the action to get the best accuracy out of the gun.

I got factory rings for mine from www.jgsales.com

Brownell's carries rings from a number of makers as well. www.brownells.com

JShirley
November 7, 2003, 03:15 PM
Sharpshooter,

If your basis for comparison is a 7.62x39 ruger vs PSS .223, of course you'll think the Russian is inaccurate! Especially if you aren't aware that the Mini could be the least accurate American-made autoloader. Don't blame the round for the platform's inadequacies. You also are comparing American-made Varmint ammo to...? Surely you aren't comparing ammo designed to shoot small critters at long ranges with the least expensive, Former Combloc-produced nonreloadable stuff most people shoot in their 7.62x39's?

"I've been shooting the Ultramax 52gr. ammunition which is just cheap factory shells and they shoot under 1/10" every time best group with them was .006." Wow. This means you are one of the world's top shooters (assuming you're shooting at 100 yards or meters), most probably even better than the competitors I am aware of on the board, and we welcome your skill here.

John

Correia
November 7, 2003, 03:59 PM
"I've been shooting the Ultramax 52gr. ammunition which is just cheap factory shells and they shoot under 1/10" every time best group with them was .006."

Congratulations you are now one of the top 5 benchrest shooters on Earth. Either that or you write for Guns & Ammo.

Gonna have to file that one under, "believe it when I see it."

Art Eatman
November 7, 2003, 05:55 PM
Aw, lay off. I've gotten lotsa two-shot groups that good.

:D, Art

C.R.Sam
November 7, 2003, 10:16 PM
Oh my goodness gracious sakes alive.
Was all pumped bout takin my small bore and big bore match guns out this weekend.
Think might try knitting instead.

Sam

Steve Smith
November 7, 2003, 11:32 PM
Sam, you and I will start a knitting ring together. I can't even shoot a one shot group that small.

B27
November 7, 2003, 11:41 PM
The recent AR article about the CZ527 in 7.62x39 was wrong about the bore diameter. It is in fact the proper .311 diameter and this may well explain the lousy accuracy results they got.
Feed these carbines ammo with .311 diameter bullets in it and they shine.
Winchester produces a soft point with the correct diameter bullet and good results are being seen from a number of less expensive imported types usually bought for blasting fun with AK's.
The .223 version would however be easier to feed and spare mags are much easier to find and cost less.
I found five spare mags for mine but it took awhile and they were not cheap.

http://www.fototime.com/980A825C11FD429/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/F79D930437F868E/standard.jpg

3 rounds at 100 meters-

http://www.fototime.com/B2821D142B30854/standard.jpg

makarov
November 8, 2003, 01:12 AM
I have the 527 Varmint model with the gray Kevlar stock. Nice gun. It is in .223 and will shoot .0000001" groups. Just kidding. It is more accurate than I am though. I like the set trigger too.

I am considering the Carbine in 7.62 to go along with my SKS's in that caliber. Good to hear it has the .311 bore. The CZ rings are very nice, I had to buy some for my gun. The American comes with them, but the more expensive model doesn't. Go figure.

I also have two 452's and a CZ-85 Combat, so you could say that I like CZ's. They are a good value, accurate and built so you can pass them on to your grandkids.

CaesarI
November 8, 2003, 02:25 AM
I thought rifles were meant for shooting people far away. Both of these cartridges were designed for full auto weapons, not bolt guns, as such they have handicapped ranges.

If you're still intent on it, I'd go for the 7.62X39

Whoever said it was using a .308 barrel is nuts. No manufacturer would build a rifle with a barrel TIGHTER than spec. Not on purpose. The result: BOOM!

-Morgan

Matt G
November 8, 2003, 08:44 AM
Sorry, Caesar, but there are some manufacturers cutting bores to the original round's standard (.311"), and some cutting to the American standard (.308"). .003" isn't enough oversize in a ductile, maleable material like a gilding metal and lead bullet (or even steel core), to cause the overpressure to become a "Boom" situation; just enough to throw off your accuracy. Still and all, I wouldn't intentionally put .311 projectiles in my .308 rifle. For that matter, unless I exclusively handloaded, I probably wouldn't want a .308 bore 7.62X39.

The CZ's are nifty, aren't they? While my knee jerk response is to agree whole-heartedly with John's assessment on the basis of versatility, there is something to be said for a handy varminter carbine. If you're a bachelor like John, you know you'll just have to end up getting them both. If you're a family man like myself, you'll have to settle on one over the other. :) Heck with it-- get the 7.62. There's plenty of cheap factory ammo available for practicing practical field positions (which the carbine is made for, BTW, NOT for bench-resting .006 angstrom groups), and if you handload, you can reportedly really make the 7.62X39 shine. (so I read; I've never loaded for that particular round. :o )

Sharpshooter223
November 8, 2003, 01:40 PM
No reason to hate on me guys. Maybe i'm doing something wrong with my measuring then? I measure the hole then subtract .223 from the measurement isn't that how to do it?

B27
November 8, 2003, 02:11 PM
Sharpshooter-
Here ya go. Maybe this will help. :)

http://www.sportshooter.com/improving/measuring_groups.htm

Sharpshooter223
November 8, 2003, 08:54 PM
Thank you that's exactly how I do it though what's the big fuss about me shooting under 1/10 of an inch?

Matt G
November 8, 2003, 09:46 PM
Sharpshooter, perhaps our issue is with terms.

"Group" means, to me, 3 or more shots fired at one target by a human shooter.

.006" means, to me and anyone who knows mathematics as displayed commonly in the United States: "Six thousandths of an inch." (or 1/6.67 of a milimeter. A milimeter is the approximate thickness of a dime.)

Thus, the statement, as I read it, is that you're getting your Browning A-Bolt to launch three or more Ultramax (commercial reload) bullets into a single group, the outer edges of which are, after measuring, exactly.23 inches from side to side. (assuming the outer diameter of the bullet is 0.224"). Apparently, your Remington VSS turns in, even with your best handloads using a premium bullet, a miserable .25" group (which I, for one, will take every day of the week and twice on Sunday, if my rifle and I could do that well on demand with my own 700 Sendero SF). We don't know the contour of the barrel and the stock of your A-Bolt, but your claim is that it can with regularity shoot groups well under half the size of your VSS, with factory reloads. My heavens. One wonders why you bother reloading at all.

All of this has, IMHO, little to no bearing on the topic at hand: what would be the most versitle caliber for a light, handy carbine? Employed as it's meant to be used, it will never see a bench, except to sight it it. 2" @ 100m is perfectly sufficient for snap shot hunting use.

.1" groups? They're getting pretty commonplace, among better competitive benchresters. Not among sporter rifles.

Have I shot 3 shots that would go under 1/4" before? Sure. Does that mean that the rifle, load, and I can do it on demand? heck no.

CaesarI
November 9, 2003, 02:16 AM
So who's making .308" 7.62X39mm barrels?

-Morgan

Sharpshooter223
November 9, 2003, 11:57 AM
Well I haven't reloaded for the browning but I do reload for the remington to get the 1/4 inch groups for it. And as for the light rifle that shoots good I've had several .223's that were cheap and all shot good. Actually I even had one of those "handy rifles" the single shot .223's that are really cheap and it shot under a 2" group with many types of ammo. I've just never had any luck at all with the 7.62x39. Was just putting in my .02 :)

JShirley
November 9, 2003, 12:17 PM
Yeah, from what I've heard of the Handi-Rifle, they do shoot well. Especially with that cheap bulk ammo from Wally World. :)

If you enjoyed reading about "CZ 527 Carbine - .223 or 7.62 X 39?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!