"jungle-loading" a magazine


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AcceptableUserName
October 15, 2009, 05:46 PM
in a self defense scenario. lets say 230 gr .45 hardball and jhp (wouldnt bother with 9mm)...provided both rounds function well on their own, could shooting a jungle loaded mag cause the gun to hang up in anyway? by jungle loadeing i mean a staggered mag...jhp, fmj, jhp, fmj, or jhp, fmj fmj, jhp so on and so forth.

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CoRoMo
October 15, 2009, 06:02 PM
I think that if it did, the gun would be to blame.

I've loaded my .45 up with alternating wadcutters and fmj and it ran through the mag just fine.

CWL
October 15, 2009, 06:03 PM
The proper term is "cocktail loading".

What purpose are you trying to accomplish? I'd doubt that you'd have any functional issues with the gun, but why do you think it would be more effective to alternate bullets for SD?

GRIZ22
October 15, 2009, 06:03 PM
I have heard this called "survival loading". It shouldn't interfere with the functioning of the pistol if it will normally feed and function with those rounds but seems pretty pointless to me. The different rounds may have different points of impact so it would leave out any precision shooting. I'd just use a qaulity 230 JHP like Federal makes.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 15, 2009, 06:07 PM
I agree with others in that I just use one type of bullet and go with it.

Now a pump action 12 gauge is a bit different. I may want to start with #2 pellets, then move to buckshot after a couple of rounds.

If I don't need the #2, all I have to do is rack the slide twice and the 00 Buck will be loaded.

DeepSouth
October 15, 2009, 06:16 PM
I think that if it did, the gun would be to blame.

We think alike.

kd7nqb
October 15, 2009, 07:20 PM
by jungle loadeing i mean a staggered mag...jhp, fmj, jhp, fmj

The proper term is "cocktail loading".

I have heard this called "survival loading".

And just to add one more, I have always called it Dutch loading.

Now back to the OP's question, I have been known to make sure that if I am going to carry a spare magazine it is a FMJ since my standard load is a HP. As for mixing in the same mag? I save that for a pump shotgun.

hammerklavier
October 15, 2009, 07:51 PM
If I don't need the #2, all I have to do is rack the slide twice and the 00 Buck will be loaded.
Heh, heh. And the sound of you racking the slide twice would scare away twice as many bad guys! :)

I could see doing the cocktail loading provided you are using a powerful FMJ load and not a target load. I assume you want superior penetration in case the bad guy has armor (which is very rare). In fact, if it looks like he's wearing armor I suggest that you rely on shot placement.

Mad Magyar
October 15, 2009, 08:03 PM
I prefer just topping off couple rds with SD ammo, the remainder FMJ...I'd like to think the 3rd & 4th rds are the "coup de grace" as in Mozambique....;)
To the OP, if your pistol is well-tuned, I see no problem with the stagger..

dfariswheel
October 15, 2009, 08:17 PM
I've also heard it called "Dutch loading" although mostly in conjunction with shotguns.

All the older gun writers used to do test experiments with new auto pistols by mixing loads in a magazine.
Just what this was intended to prove or test was never made clear other than some of them thought that different ammo might cause stoppages.
I never read a review in which there was a problem, but most made an issue out how the gun didn't malfunction.

bigfatdave
October 15, 2009, 10:01 PM
I don't see the point, unless you think you can remember exactly what round is in the chamber after some stressful shooting. If you find yourself discharging your pistol in a SD event, you need it to function simply and seamlessly, don't waste your time counting rounds - shoot to stop and keep yourself safe. Maybe keeping the bottom few rounds as a hot FMJ loading might be in order in winter, but even that seems sort of silly, since a clogged-up HP round essentially becomes a wadcutter.
Now, keeping different type/brand/lot ammo in a backup magazine has some merit, I do so to isolate ammo-related failures in the loaded CC mag from the reload.

AcceptableUserName
October 15, 2009, 10:58 PM
I bring this up only for food for thought. I wouldn't bother in your normal HD or self-defense application but were I LE, I'd give it serious thought while considering a prolonged firefight involving cover. You'd be able to have the pure manstopper (jhp) as well as a bit more penetration and still have some decent stoppage with the hardball (car doors for example). I just feel like it would double an LEO's chance to end the situation quickly by being multi-dimensional. I'm no expert, it just seems like I'd rather have the effects of both at one time in something prolonged.

zhyla
October 15, 2009, 11:30 PM
Shouldn't be an issue, but seems like a bad idea. Better off having a mag dedicated to the penetrating round and mark it to it's obvious.

David E
October 16, 2009, 12:15 AM
This presumes that the FMJ would penetrate more than modern bonded JHP's, at least as far as car doors go.

It's silly to alternate loads like that in the first magazine. You could make a point of having your second magazine loaded with FMJ's, on the premise that if you still have something to shoot at after the first mag, they're probably behind cover by then.

David E
October 16, 2009, 12:16 AM
Now a pump action 12 gauge is a bit different. I may want to start with #2 pellets, then move to buckshot after a couple of rounds.

Why would you want to start with #2's ? Just wanna kill 'em a little bit ? :D

You may just get ONE shot. Me, I'd want it to be 00 Buck.

AcceptableUserName
October 16, 2009, 12:30 AM
Ha offtopic but potato potatoe with the #2 and 00. #2 is pretty big...lol

David E
October 16, 2009, 01:30 AM
#2 and 00. #2 is pretty big...

But lacks penetration of 00 Buck, yet indoors, still presents a bit of a hazard thru walls.

#2 is .15 caliber, while 00 Buck is over twice as large at .33 caliber.

I'll still take 00 Buck for defense.

evan price
October 16, 2009, 06:57 AM
Most LE never need to fire their gun. Most situations where you are an LE you will cary the ammo your department tells you to carry and not be allowed to deviate. You're not an LE so who cares?

Properly designed self defense ammo will work like it is designed to.

If you are concerned about a lack of penetration carry ball.

Why overthink simple stuff? This shooting through barricades stuff is great in movies but let's face it, it doesn't happen every day.

When I play Counterstrike I load my magazines JHP, FMJ, DEPLETED URANIUM, WHITE PHOSPHORUS so I know that by the third shot I get them no matter what they are behind and the fourth shot sets them on fire.

REAPER4206969
October 16, 2009, 07:20 AM
Modern bonded JHP bullets penetrate intermediate barriers just fine.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/REAPER1911-A1/Pistolcartridge.jpg

johnnylaw53
October 16, 2009, 07:46 AM
Not quite the same thing but when I was carrying a kel tec p32 I was concern with rim lock so I would but a hp in the pipe and the magzine loaded with hard ball, That important first round I felt would give me the greatess amount of power i could hope for with a .32 and the hard balls would not rim lock.

be safe

ByAnyMeans
October 16, 2009, 03:35 PM
I load my .380 with a FNFMJ and my 9mm with a hollowpoint respectively but would never want to load up different ammo in the same magazine.


By the way around my way it was always called a "Ghetto load" because only they loaded whatever they could get. Everybody else would just go buy a box of ammo and load it up.

psyopspec
October 16, 2009, 05:34 PM
I load my .380 with a FNFMJ and my 9mm with a hollowpoint respectively but would never want to load up different ammo in the same magazine.

That's splitting some mighty fine hairs. Even premium handgun rounds... are still handgun rounds.

RE "Candy striping," I've never heard anyone outline a realistic advantage. People like to play What If and invent highly unrealistic scenarios to suit it, even though most don't. Take the example of shooting through a car door - not going to be a problem for any supersonic 9mm FMJ or JHP from a modern, reliable manufacturer. This is partially due to bullet design, and partially due to car door design. They never were solid cover on soft vehicles, but in the last 12 years or so, they've gotten even more flimsy. At best, you've got some light concealment, and that's only if you're under 5'.

rcmodel
October 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
Why would anyone want to handicap themselves with a different POI, recoil impulse, and blast every other shot?

JHP is proven to be superior to FMJ in almost any SD situation you can imagine.
FMJ much less so.

rc

herkyguy
October 16, 2009, 06:56 PM
heck, why not toss a few blanks in there as well to make things really interesting.

ByAnyMeans
October 16, 2009, 07:08 PM
"That's splitting some mighty fine hairs. Even premium handgun rounds... are still handgun rounds."

I would have to disagree. I want my ammunition to perform to the FBI standard of 12 inches of penetration in ballistic gel. There is no .380 hollowpoint that performs that currently on the market so it's FMJ. There are many 9mm rounds in hollowpoint that do consistently expand while still making 12 inches so those are hollowpoints.

The debate over whether we should model our choice of defensive ammunition on the FBI's criteria is different. I have chosen to so it seems like some pretty big hairs to me.

Marlin 45 carbine
October 16, 2009, 07:25 PM
I know for a fact as I experimented with it that a 9mm Makarov fmj will penterate a '77 Chevy pick-up door with the glass rolled down and through the door liner into a corn bag of sawdust at 20'. at same distance will go through the windsheild into same bag.
haven't tried my .380 or .32acp yet.

woad_yurt
October 17, 2009, 06:53 AM
It seems to me that the goal of any shooter would be consistency.

I reload .38 SPL and am lucky in that my practice and home defense loads are the same (148 gr LHBWC & 4 gr W-231/HP38.) Changing anything gives me a different feel and a different point of impact. The same happens when I mix up different brands of ammo in succession with my other firearms. No way I want inconsistent results in a weapon that may be used for defense.

mrnkc130
October 17, 2009, 07:29 AM
that is how my HD ar-15 is loaded...jhp,fmj,jhp,fmjx30

batex
October 17, 2009, 08:36 AM
I really don't mean to offend, but "jungle loading" or whatever it's called just seems goofy for for all but the most imaginative made up scenario. I would think it would also likely cause far more problems than it claims to address. Also, what happens if you load the rounds in the wrong sequence??? :D

My #1 rule for any defensive gun is to make sure your ammo is reliable. Also don't for get any handgun is not a superweapon. Decent shot placement with ANY quality 230 grain bullet is 98% of the equation anyway.

psyopspec
October 17, 2009, 01:14 PM
I would have to disagree. I want my ammunition to perform to the FBI standard of 12 inches of penetration in ballistic gel. There is no .380 hollowpoint that performs that currently on the market so it's FMJ. There are many 9mm rounds in hollowpoint that do consistently expand while still making 12 inches so those are hollowpoints.

The debate over whether we should model our choice of defensive ammunition on the FBI's criteria is different. I have chosen to so it seems like some pretty big hairs to me.

I agree that it's a separate discussion; however, given the topic at hand you seem to be in agreement on the topic of altering the types of rounds carried in a handgun. For gel penetration, I'll only go 9mm at the smallest for serious purposes, so it's a bit more of a moot point. I forgot to add above the the hairs being split only become mighty fine when compared to long guns. And properly shampooed and conditioned.

armsmaster270
October 17, 2009, 01:39 PM
Stick with a quality JHP and forget Ball.
1. Ball has too much liability attached to it
2. JHP's will penetrate fine
3. No available 45auto round will defeat body armor
4. if the BG is using a car body or door for cover "bounce" bullets into his legs and fire again when he hits the ground.

rcmodel
October 17, 2009, 01:50 PM
There is no .380 hollowpoint that performs that currently on the market so it's FMJActually there are several. Here are a couple.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/90%20grain%20Federal%20Personal%20Defense%20Hydra-Shok.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/380acp%2090gr%20Federal%20Hydra-Shok%20(light%20clothing).html

rc

copaup
October 17, 2009, 02:16 PM
I am LE and its a bad idea. If my duty handgun ammo wont penetrate the cover, I can't take the shot anyway. If I can't see it, id it, and determine whats behind it, I can't shoot it. My duty ammo will go through a windshield, a car door, or a thin intermediate barrier like a interior door just fine if I have to take a shot at an obscured but still visible target. If I need more penetration than the handgun for some reason I have a shotgun loaded with Buck and slugs available on my belt. Still not enough? Then I get the rifle.

kwelz
October 17, 2009, 03:06 PM
I guess I will ask the question.

WHY!

There is no feasible reason to load FMJ rounds with modern JHP bullets. They will penetrate barrier, clothing, etc just fine. By loading the way you are talking about, you are decreasing the effectiveness of your firearm.

Bad Penny 03
October 17, 2009, 04:02 PM
"jungle-loading" a magazine
in a self defense scenario. lets say 230 gr .45 hardball and jhp (wouldn’t bother with 9mm)...provided both rounds function well on their own, could shooting a jungle loaded mag cause the gun to hang up in anyway? by jungle loadeing i mean a staggered mag...jhp, fmj, jhp, fmj, or jhp, fmj fmj, jhp so on and so forth.

Not this crap again...sigh

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=344318

"If I load all my mags with JHP/FMJ/APIT/CN/CS/Bean bag/GFB/shotshell/flare/FMJ/RBCD/Frangible/APFSDS and then a ninja with class V body armor pops out of the back seat of the car in front of me when I'm on my way home from the grocery store, I just rack the slide 4 times if he has a hostage. 3 times if I have to blow through an armored car he is hiding behind, and 12 times if I'm indoor next door to an orphanage. and to keep track if I've already fired several rounds I have this slide rule style chart and color coding to keep track and....blah blah blah

This nonsense makes my brain hurt.

My .02:

"Pick one."
Pick the tool for the job.
Don't expect to have your handgun perform like a rifle.
If you want to punch cars reliably...use a .308/7.62Nato
If you must...have another magazine or speed loader or CCW speedloader loaded with whatever special/alternate purpose round you might need. Put your shotgun slugs on a sidesaddle and keep a tube of whatever shot you decide to load or vise versa.

Putting a fruit salad of extra rounds into the target to meet some random ever changing criteria, or jacking the slide on your pump shotgun to "select" the right slug/birdshot round or firing your pistol in bursts to get the right mix of JHP/ball load or whatever is not sound tactics or a good use of resources.

You should employ tactics that afford you the best solution should you only get the chance to put 1 round on target, and go with that round.

There is no guarantee you will encounter the right combination of random circumstances you’ve used to justify whatever combination of rounds you’re carrying.
You may never get the opportunity to use them.
Most civilian armed encounters in the US last all of 2 or 3 rounds. They last seconds and there is no time to switch loads or whatever gimmicky comic book crap tactics you might choose to employ with your grab-bag stack of www.firequest.com ammo.
You’re presented with a situation in which lethal force may have to be used, and you fire to eliminate the threat. There is no “time out…I have to switch loads now” or "Which load do I need to switch to?"
You might not even remember to change rounds in such a short amount of time…which is my next point…you should be focusing on sound tactics (moving to cover or maneuvering on the target, reloading/topping off, clearing malfunctions if necessary, etc) not on ammo selection at this point in the game.
Certainly not on trying to remember which load you have in your weapon.

I’ve written about this several times…most recently in the above referenced link in which I said:

Best left in the comic books, where it came from.

This one just kills me.

Pick the right load for the job.

This always seemed really asinine to me, at least in most cases.

Whichever round comes up in the magazine queue, the chances are 50-50 that it will not be the one you wanted just then.
Precisely, +2

Who says you will have time do anything but shoot, anyway.

Lets see "He's in a truck, now... (at least he was 10 seconds ago) so maybe I should use the ball ammo that has 15% enhanced penetration in car doors (well maybe my JHPs would penetrate this model of car door...that is if the window riser mechanism isn’t half way up (in which case neither will work as well as I want) ...or what if he has a thick leather jacket on, and its a Tuesday, and he has green socks on, then I want the RBCD ammo...no wait..."

"Oh, darn...I just got shot in the side of the head because I was busy checking which ammo I have in the chamber just now..."

I would like to see examples of someone walking away from a gun fight saying "damn, I'm sure glad I used 9 kinds of ammo in my magazines, I never would have made it with out JHP - FMJ - JHP "

Yeah, not gonna happen...

Just comic book logic.

Pretty much sums it up.

So whatever you choose to do, just make sure you load the second to last round a tracer, so you know you going to have to reload soon.
[rolls eyes]

:D <====== good-natured debate smiley

woad_yurt
October 18, 2009, 09:32 AM
Mixing up the ammo makes no sense. My goal, when I shoot, is to develop consistency. How is that at all possible when there are different types of ammo in the same magazine?

laktrash
October 18, 2009, 09:46 AM
I thought about loading bottom 3 with +p top with regular 235 grain self defense ammo. The reasoning is I bought a box of +P by mistake. Same brand can see that it hurt. I really don't want to use alot of +p in my compact 45's

timetoreload
October 18, 2009, 02:43 PM
heck, why not toss a few blanks in there as well to make things really interesting.

That's all you're doing when you screw with consistency.

Bad Penny 03
October 19, 2009, 01:36 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=480774

SIGH.
It just wont die!

M1911
October 19, 2009, 02:02 PM
I don't see the point. Find a good hollow point round that works in your gun, and stick with it. Adding more variables is not a good thing.

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