Hostile Response to "No guns - no money" letters?


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HK G3
October 17, 2009, 06:51 AM
Recently AZ passed restaurant carry.

Where I live, I'd say 90% of restaurants have been posting gun buster signs, some of which hold no legal weight, but still make the position of management clear nonetheless.

Since the passage, I've been respectfully emailing some of these establishments that I've frequented explaining why I can't, in good faith, continue to patronize them any further until said signs come down and they reverse their anti-self defense stances. Some of them simply sent back a form letter encouraging me to continue to buy anyway, but others were downright insulting. One local business called me an extremist nutjob and told me to get used to living away from civilization because people like me are not wanted anyway.

It was somewhat upsetting to receive very angry letters from management in response to a respectful letter, and it invoked an urge to respond in kind.

However, it obviously isn't very high road or productive to do so - and to that extent, what would be the advice in dealing with businesses that are overtly opposed to RKBA and self-defense? I almost feel like contacting all the local RKBA groups and requesting them to start a letter campaign against such establishments...

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Double Naught Spy
October 17, 2009, 07:07 AM
Copy of your letter?

what would be the advice in dealing with businesses that are overtly opposed to RKBA and self-defense? I almost feel like contacting all the local RKBA groups and requesting them to start a letter campaign against such establishments...

Looks they would already be quite busy if 90% are posting. Just curious, are you concerned about all the businesses, or only the ones where you want to eat? What are you doing to overtly reward non-overtyly opposed to RKBA businesses?

FYI, contrary to how you have portrayed it, RKBA and self defense are not necessarily the same thing even if you think they are. While the businesses may be anti-gun, they are likely not anti-self defense. They just don't want you doing it with a gun. Like I said, you can claim they are one in the same, but they really aren't and that may be why some of those letters you received indicated they thought you a "nut job" because you don't understand the difference. When people start trying to empower one cause cause by invoking the name of another, it does give the impression of arguing from a fanatical or extremist position.

You can argue that RKBA is important to self protection to many as it affords one form of often effective power, but let's face it, if having a gun is your only preparation for self protection, then you aren't prepared.

HK G3
October 17, 2009, 08:49 AM
So far, it's just been places that I used to visit prior to the passage of the new law and subsequent gun busters postings. I may just start emailing them all, but in the meantime, it seems to have the most "realistic" weight when I email places that I actually used to spend money, as they are the ones who will truly lose revenue from me.

My letter was essentially the same as this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279431 just in my own words and personalized to my current situation - I really did not deviate very much in terms of substance at all - the only major change was discussing in more detail the background checks and testing process involved in CCW licensing. In the letter, I argued that the RKBA and self-defense were closely related, and that denying one the access to the best tools with which to defend oneself and their family significantly reduced their capacity for effective self-defense, and that a gun-busters sign acts as a notice to criminals that patrons are unarmed and hence easy pickings for whatever nefarious intents they may have.

But I agree with you in terms of Mindset > Skill-set > Tool-set, but at the same time, to deny one the tool-set is still a purposeful hampering on an intrinsic human right, even if it is not as bad as it could be.

Again, the vast majority of places responded respectfully, just basically saying they'd miss my business and like me to reconsider, and perhaps the policy would change in the future, but 2 purely local businesses decided to respond with angry, and hastily written, emails.

hso
October 17, 2009, 10:29 AM
I'd suggest you have a good plan right now. Contact ALL the local RKBA groups and post the original letter and the rude responses and let the members respond politely. I'd track down whether the person who sent the letter is the owner or not so the group could focus on the person who's wallet is going to be hurt by the sudden downturn.

Yo Mama
October 17, 2009, 10:31 AM
One local business called me an extremist nutjob and told me to get used to living away from civilization because people like me are not wanted anyway.



I live in AZ, I have alot of time on my hands, and I'd love to know the name of the establishment that gave you this response.:D

Old Fuff
October 17, 2009, 10:48 AM
When the CCW law was passed in Arizona, "no guns" signs went up all over the place. A little time passed, and most of them came down. The reason was that businesses noticed that the expected bloodshed wasn't happening, but they were loosing customers. I expect much the same will happen again.

In the meantime I would avoid those places that are posted, and patronize those that aren’t – and let the management know the reason I switched over to them. ;)

TexasRifleman
October 17, 2009, 11:08 AM
Where I live, I'd say 90% of restaurants have been posting gun buster signs, some of which hold no legal weight, but still make the position of management clear nonetheless.

Take care with this one. I'm not familiar with the law in your state about what makes a sign hold weight or not but here in Texas we have a similar law, that some signs mean something and some signs can be freely ignored.

A store that I like to do business with had one of the "gun buster" signs on the door. It has no legal standing with concealed carriers.

I asked the store owner why that sign was there and told him that I would no longer be doing business with him because of it.

He told me that he absolutely knew the law, was a concealed carrier himself (showed me his permit) and knew that the sign had no weight for licensed carry. He said he put the sign up for the ignorant "soccer moms" (his words) and that he never intended it to apply to lawful carriers. I explained that it came off as anti gun and he agreed but said he never really thought of it that way before since he assumed concealed carriers would just ignore it.

He took the sign down after that, but my point is to be careful assuming someone is anti concealed carry when the signs with no legal meaning are up, it may be their twisted way of trying to make both sides happy.

ArmedBear
October 17, 2009, 11:41 AM
It was somewhat upsetting to receive very angry letters from management in response to a respectful letter, and it invoked an urge to respond in kind.


If you must respond, I'd keep it simple.

Something along the lines of, "I had wanted to let you know why I wouldn't be patronizing your establishment. Your response, however, has led me to be sure that everyone I know will be informed of your hostile attitude towards your customers. At the end of the day, you're in business to make a profit by attracting the public to your establshment, not to write hostile e-mails to potential customers. I will do what I can to make sure that my friends and acquaintances make an informed choice, when they consider whether to spend money at your restaurant."

nitetrane98
October 17, 2009, 01:14 PM
Something such as emails can be effective, I suppose, but not nearly so as a FTF meeting with the manager at the front door. I fear that if a "campaign" is started, the manager, or whoever is reading the emails, will soon decide that if only half of the people sending him emails had ever eaten in his establishment he would have had standing room only for every meal.
Kind of like the 1972 "Immaculate Reception" game. As near as I can figure, through the years there must have been approximately 1.5 million fans on the 50 yd line at that game who "know what they saw".

metallic
October 17, 2009, 02:01 PM
It would be interesting to see who posted with hostile responses. That way I know exactly which businesses to avoid the next time I come to visit Arizona. Lovely state, truly wish I could relocate.

armsmaster270
October 17, 2009, 02:50 PM
Print these back to back and hand them out Face to Face. The Mgr may recognize you as a loyal customer but not know you from a letter.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/NGNB.jpg

PA Dave
October 17, 2009, 06:00 PM
One local business called me an extremist nutjob and told me to get used to living away from civilization because people like me are not wanted anyway.
Just an observation, but this comment from the establishment betrays that they are confident that you are not an "extremist nut job". If they believed you were, they would not poke the bear that way. They do so because they know they are safe from you. It has to be something else...possibly a hatred of guns in general. I really think you expressed yourself quite well.

THE DARK KNIGHT
October 17, 2009, 06:07 PM
Still haven't seen your original letter. Maybe you DID sound like an extremist nutjob. Got a copy of your letter?

HK G3
October 19, 2009, 03:09 AM
Thanks for the input guys.

I don't want to post my letter on this forum because it could turn up in a google search, and if these guys saw it on this forum, it would make it seem less like the work of individuals and more of the work of a group of random people on the internet, hence negating it's relevance.

That said, I'd be willing to PM the mail...

THE DARK KNIGHT
October 19, 2009, 04:16 AM
I'd like to see the letter.

THE DARK KNIGHT
October 19, 2009, 06:14 AM
Just read your letter. Very well written and sensible. Nothing "extremist" or idiotic in there at all. Good luck with your efforts.

Double Naught Spy
October 19, 2009, 08:09 AM
Something along the lines of, "I had wanted to let you know why I wouldn't be patronizing your establishment. Your response, however, has led me to be sure that everyone I know will be informed of your hostile attitude towards your customers. At the end of the day, you're in business to make a profit by attracting the public to your establshment, not to write hostile e-mails to potential customers. I will do what I can to make sure that my friends and acquaintances make an informed choice, when they consider whether to spend money at your restaurant."

Telling businesses what they are or are not supposed to be doing is a good way to get round-filed without consideration. Nobody likes some meddling stranger to tell them what their business is or is not. The attitude will be basically that since it isn't the stranger's business, screw'em. The "screw'em" attitude is one many gun owners certainly have against anti-gunners who wish to tell us what our personal business is.

Many businesses believe that the risk of losing a lawsuit as a result of allowing guns is more of a threat to their bottom line than whatever business might be lost from the minority of gun owners who care. Some have opted to try to garner business from the non-gun crowd and believe they will make more money as a result of the signs.

So can y'all who are vehement about this profit-based sort of protest actually say factually that the NO GUNS signs will lose more business than they will gain? That is the argument y'all are making, only you are just claiming the company will lose business as if gun owners were the only action a given business receives. We aren't, except maybe at gun shops and gun ranges.

So, does anybody have any studies that show businesses lose more income than they gain by putting up these signs? I am sure if there was such a study, the NRA would be all over it.

If the best argument you can make is to tell the business to change their ways or you will hurt their business through boycotting, invoking a form of legal extortion, there is a very good chance you will ignored as a non-customer and the type of customer the business does not want anyway.

The real problem is that gun owners can't show that there is any financial reward if the signs are taken down or that they will do anything special to show patronage to the business. Another real problem is that business owners know that when folks do protest, many of the protestors are people who have never been in their business, won't ever be in their business, and aren't actually a player is the fight other than background noise.

renegade1alpha
October 19, 2009, 08:55 AM
I really wouldn't have expected that from establishments in Arizona! Here in Idaho you will almost NEVER see that, except at Blockbuster. And I quit going there anyway.

jmorris
October 19, 2009, 10:13 AM
what would be the advice in dealing with businesses that are overtly opposed to RKBA and self-defense?

What you've done sounds good to me, let them know why they lost you as a customer. Your not going be able to bribe them into changing there political views because you don’t buy a hamburger every week and at least you know where they stand and what kind of politician they will support in your community.

You should talk with other business owners of places you frequent. You might be surprised what political positions other businesses have, that don’t post anti signs, but do support politicians that are anti 2nd.

Like it or not everyone is (at least for now) entitled to there opinion, well founded or not.

armoredman
October 19, 2009, 11:28 AM
The only resteraunt that serves alcohol that I patronize occaisionally has not put up a sign, and stated they were'nt interested in putting up a sign, not worried about it.

RX-178
October 19, 2009, 11:46 AM
He told me that he absolutely knew the law, was a concealed carrier himself (showed me his permit) and knew that the sign had no weight for licensed carry. He said he put the sign up for the ignorant "soccer moms" (his words) and that he never intended it to apply to lawful carriers. I explained that it came off as anti gun and he agreed but said he never really thought of it that way before since he assumed concealed carriers would just ignore it.


This is common in Texas at least. I have been told the same logic by several establishments, including banks, that they intentionally put non-binding signage as a form of security theatre, based on the fact that binding and non-binding signage is covered on the written portion of the Texas CHL test.

The idea is that all CHL holders in the state will know that the sign is non-binding, and carry anyway. Non-CHL holders will not know that the sign is non-binding.

ArmedBear
October 19, 2009, 12:48 PM
So can y'all who are vehement about this profit-based sort of protest actually say factually that the NO GUNS signs will lose more business than they will gain? That is the argument y'all are making, only you are just claiming the company will lose business as if gun owners were the only action a given business receives.

That's not the argument, and it would be a silly one to make.

The argument is that there are essentially two kinds of people: people who don't care about or even notice the signs, and people who will take their business elsewhere. There aren't any, or any significant number, of people who will patronize the place BECAUSE of the signs. Therefore they lose more than they gain.

(But, you do have to consider that a manager who writes a hostile response to a disgruntled customer probably DOESN'T know that he's in business to attract customers. In the restaurant biz, he's probably just thinking about his next hit of coke, not who's ultimately paying for it.)

So here's the deal.

The hostile response is stupid for anyone running a business. End of story. But it doesn't matter, really.

What really matters is that, if they get 25 or more such letters, they'll start considering whether it's costing them business. So keep writing them.

I don't think it's about making friends. I wouldn't care to have these people as friends, on all sorts of levels. What it's about is letting them know that their actions will cost them their coke money.

I whittles what I see
October 19, 2009, 02:26 PM
Give us email address and we can help show them you are not alone. Some of us don't live in your state but if I ever go though I"m not giving my money to any restaurant that won't let me protect myself.

KBintheSLC
October 19, 2009, 03:27 PM
One local business called me an extremist nutjob and told me to get used to living away from civilization because people like me are not wanted anyway.

The hypocrisy of the enlightened progressive types never ceases to amaze me.

Give us email address and we can help show them you are not alone.

Ditto... a bombardment of email from other like minded "nutjobs" ought to help give them a bit of perspective.

Double Naught Spy
October 19, 2009, 03:46 PM
(But, you do have to consider that a manager who writes a hostile response to a disgruntled customer probably DOESN'T know that he's in business to attract customers. In the restaurant biz, he's probably just thinking about his next hit of coke, not who's ultimately paying for it.)

And you think that by telling him what his business is, to make profit, that you have somehow educated him? Not hardly. He didn't get to be manager by magic. However, by telling him his job, you have helped prove his perspective to him about gun owners being nut jobs.

Your characterization of him as a coke head here does help with his point, however. You, as the obviously enlightened gun owner have decided that because he is in mgmt in the restaurant business and not pro gun that he is probably into illegal drugs. That is pretty darn whacked.

What it's about is letting them know that their actions will cost them their coke money.
What is even more whacked is that you think the guy is a coke head and that you are going to be able to insult him by telling him what his job is and expect that you will be able to convince him of your point so that he can support his drug habit.

I like the rally cry for gun owners.
Allow gun owners to carry in your restaurant so that you can support your drug habit!

Well, I guess that makes sense on some scale. :rolleyes:

chaim
October 19, 2009, 05:22 PM
Since the passage, I've been respectfully emailing some of these establishments that I've frequented explaining why I can't, in good faith, continue to patronize them any further until said signs come down and they reverse their anti-self defense stances. Some of them simply sent back a form letter encouraging me to continue to buy anyway, but others were downright insulting. One local business called me an extremist nutjob and told me to get used to living away from civilization because people like me are not wanted anyway.



Are these locally owned restaurants or national chains? If they are local chains, was it the local manager, a general manager, or the owner that wrote you the letter? If it is a local restaurant, was it a manager or the owner?

Whenever possible, contact the person above the person who said that to you, and forward him/her a copy of the email where management said that to you and let them know you were very unhappy with the rude response. If the response was from the owner and there is no higher to go, ignore it but pass along the info to other gun owners so they know not to spend their money there.


I almost feel like contacting all the local RKBA groups and requesting them to start a letter campaign against such establishments...

Good idea.

NMGonzo
October 19, 2009, 06:04 PM
I am a progressive, and I am surprised by the response that the OP got from the restaurant.

In my shop, I have even invited people to not to leave their weapons in their cars and open carry or conceal carry or bring your bazooka in your baby carriage for all I care.

The more good guys with visible guns, the less bad guys walk in the shop.

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