[BadJohn]

Pistols for the .40 hold more than a .45.Have more stopping power than the 9mm and are also in between in price.A very accurate cartridge with plenty of knockdown.My favorite round.
What's your opinion?Let the flames commence.




.40 S&W,Don't leave home without it.

[DeltaElite]

10mm, what the 40 short and weak wants to be. :neener:
No such thing as knockdown, unless you hit them with your car. :neener:

[yayarx7]

You can only have 10 rounds now anyway. Why not 10 of the largest you can fit?

[Spackler]

Sound like you have it all figured out. Why muddy the waters with the thoughtful, well-reasoned opinions of others? ;)

[BadJohn]

Actually I also like the 9 and 45.I just wanted to see what kind of discussion we could get going on the subject.

[Sean Smith]

Counter-troll, er counter-point :D to the topic starter's statements:

.40 S&W is an enfeebled derivative of the more powerful, flexible, accurate and safe 10mm Auto cartridge.

.40 S&W is the least accurate of the major self defense autoloader cartridges.

.40 S&W is the most prone to case failures of the major self-defense autoloader cartridges... too much pressure in too weak of a case.

.40 S&W has worse recoil than .45 ACP, and in return makes smaller holes in the target.

.40 S&W has almost exactly the same muzzle energy in most loadings as 9x19mm +P & +P+ loads, making its claims of "superior stopping power" compared to 9x19mm seem spurrious.

:evil:

[BadJohn]

Sean,Don't beat around the bush.How do you really feel? :D

[DeltaElite]

Like I said.
10mm, anything else is second best. :neener:

[BadJohn]

I believe caliber choice is like auto ownership,everyone has their emotional favorites.I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any of them.I don't find the recoil of .40 to be bad at all and with some of the better loadings you get close to 490 lbs of energy.I think that's sufficient,that's pushing .45 territory..40 S+W in 165 gr. has a 1 shot stop record of close to 90%.Many police departments have gone to .40 for some reason.
I don't think I was being a troll,just trying to get some debate going.Thanks to all who've replied.

[Shane]

I prefer the .45 ACP, followed by the 9mm and then .40.

I still own one .40 pistol, but it gets the least use. I've never cared for the sharp/snappy recoil the .40 offers. In my .40 pistol (CZ 75B), the .40 is very accurate though, but not quite to the same level as .45 ACP or 9mm.

Most of my semi-autos are in either .45 ACP or 9mm. Eventually, I'm going to simplify things and stick to mostly .45 ACP. For my needs, it does everything I ask of it.

Of course, my true preference in handguns is for revolvers in .357 magnum/.38 special FWIW. ;)

[Handy]

.40, ballistically, is a decent round. But the combined factors of the .40's weak case, overall shape, operating pressures and guns that it can be stuffed into all make for a really questionable cartridge. The noted poor accuracy and strange failures are a testament to its problematic design.

.40 is a packaging success, not a thoughtfully designed cartridge.

[Blackhawk]

9mm, 10mm, .45. Trifecta in any order, IMO.

[10-Ring]

Let's see, 10 round max capacity in today's mags....I'm going w/ the 45 & the big bullet big hole theory :scrutiny:

[Blueduck]

Nothing big against the .40 (love my 4006). But personally by the time a gun gets big enough and heavy enough to be comfortable in 40 I might as well have a 45.

[Dave Williams]

"Nothing big against the .40 (love my 4006). But personally by the time a gun gets big enough and heavy enough to be comfortable in 40 I might as well have a 45."

I agree totally with you.

Dave

[Ala Dan]

.45 ACP, of course!

It's been around for over 90+ year's; and has
proven its-self in battle, as has the 9m/m. Can
the .40 S&W make that claim? I certainly think
not!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Scott13]

i have never liked 40's , they are probably a very good defence
caliber . But for a great all around caliber they just seem imho
not to fun . They are loud about like a 357 , and the recoil is not
as smooth as the 45 acp , it's too jerky . Just my personal view.

[twoblink]

.50AE??? Anybody??

I like the .40SW myself; more bullet then a 9mm, more velocity then a .45ACP.

Of course, the correct answer is .308... (See will a 308 do an engine block thread)

[FLM]

According to Doc Roberts, THe CHP is very happy with their 40s and the INS is also. The 180 gr Ranger Talons I use are very accurate and recoil is mild in my Glock m23. However, my first choice is Ranger 230 gr +Ps in .45.

[mr. e]

I shoot both the 9mm and the 45 ACP more accurately than the 40 Auto. BUT...

I shoot 40 well enough to feel comfortable carrying it. With the mag restriction of 10 rounds, I'd rather have 10 of 40 than 10 of 9 because I think the 40 packs more wallop.

My full-size Kimber 45 is too big to carry, and even at that size it carries only 7 rounds.

I carry either a Sig 229 or the Walther P99 in 40. Lately, I lean more toward the Walther and use the Sig for 357 SIG loads.

[PCRCCW]

40 S&W the ultimate...questionable..but possible.
The 9mm is faster..almost as potent in the extremes in both.
The 45 is bigger/heavier....as potent etc.....

The speed of a 9mm is a real issue...what is so great about the 357 Sig...its speed vs weight......the 40 in +P in lighter loads is pretty damn close. Its diameter is close to the 45 as is its weight...with the increased velocity...who knows it could be better.

It did surpass the 357 last year for the best OSS record...Oooh Aaaah! :rolleyes:

It has strengths...small size vs energy produced...fits in 9mm frame sized guns..with almost as many rounds. Very potent in its 'hotter loads. Ballistically equal to most def. calibers...except the 10mm....(But those guys are just making up for ....well, other shortcomings...If you know what I mean!...They have sports cars and other .....compensations" also.... :evil: Kidding )

It has weakness's ....prone to KB more than other rounds..an inherent design issue...small case/high pressure etc....

Jeez...I guess its a compromise...just like any other round..like the 9mm, 45 acp, 357 sig and mag and 10mm.........

I guess it just goes back to that "placement" thingy.....:D

Shoot well

[Sean Smith]

Glad to see nobody took my post too seriously. :D

I've actually owned 2 guns in .40 S&W. The caliber is fine, especially if you want a smaller launch platform than a .45 ACP or 10mm can typically give you.

[agtman]

".40 ... A very accurate cartridge with plenty of knockdown power."


Well, at least the "very accurate" part gave me a laugh. Thanks for putting me in a better mood. :D

Let's try it this way: I've shot a number of .40cal pistols over the years, including several Glock 23s and 22s, Smith 4006s, a beautiful two-tone .40 CZ75B, and a couple of Sig 229s.

The Smith 40s exhibited the worst accuracy of all of them - let's be nice and call it minute-of-barn-door - while the Glock and CZ 40s were about equal, which is to say, pie-plate accuracy with flyers at typical "combat" distances, but nothing worth writing Grandma about. OTOH, for many people, pie-plate accuracy may be all they need or desire. :scrutiny:

The Sig 229s were decent, and if I was restricted to carrying only a .40 I'd go with a Sig. But none of these .40s can hold a candle to the out-of-the-box accuracy demonstrated by the 10mms I've shot in the last 15 years or which I personally own.

Ironically, when compared to their little brothers in .40S&W, the large-framed Smith 10mms often exhibit - out-of-the-box - the tight accuracy of a hand-tuned pistol. The stock Glock 20s are very accurate, with most complaints centering on grip size (ditto on the G21), but never where the gun's putting the rounds. G29 owners relate the same high degree of accuracy.

Likewise, the accuracy of stock Delta Elites using Colt barrels has generally been well-received, although admittedly many DE owners have been known to take the gun to the next level with a hand-fitted custom 10mm barrel from Bar-Sto, etc.

HTH. :cool:

[DeltaElite]

I now carry a Glock 22 as a holster gun and a Glock 27 as my ankle gun, magazine and function compatibility yanno.
Good cartridge, good gun, but I would still take a 10mm or a 45acp in a heartbeat.
Glock 20 with a Glock 29 as my back up. *drools uncontrollably*

Funny thing is I carry 10mm's off duty and a lesser cartridge on duty. Glad I have a shotgun available. ;)

[bountyhunter]

Wive's tales die hard:

".40 S&W is an enfeebled derivative of the more powerful, flexible, accurate and safe 10mm Auto cartridge."

Maybe, but posted one shot stop data consistently shows the .40SW to be within one or two percentage points of the .45 and one or two above it in some cases.

".40 S&W is the least accurate of the major self defense autoloader cartridges."

This one may never die since it is the .45 lovers refrain. The .40 is just as accurate as the 9 or 45 as long as the ammo is properly made. The published info on this is that the "inaccurate" rap was actually on the first 10mm ammo made way back when (and it was not well made) and it stuck to the .40SW. The reason I know it's a lie" I have managed a 298/300 at 25 yard bullseye league with my inaccurate .40. The gun can shoot 1" groups with cheap reload ammo.

".40 S&W is the most prone to case failures of the major self-defense autoloader cartridges... too much pressure in too weak of a case."

If you: use worn out brass, push the bullet in too far, and shoot in an unsupported barrel, you can get it to fail. If decent brass is used and properly loaded, there is essentially zero chance of failure.

".40 S&W has worse recoil than .45 ACP, and in return makes smaller holes in the target."

All I can say is shoot them both in a full size 1911. The 180-gr factory .40 has about 30% less recoil than a 230-gr factory .45 and returns to target faster.

".40 S&W has almost exactly the same muzzle energy in most loadings as 9x19mm +P & +P+ loads, making its claims of "superior stopping power" compared to 9x19mm seem spurrious."

Perhaps, but I go by the published one shot stop ratings put out by people who have no reason to lie. And, the fact that law enforcement is re-arming in droves with the .40 makes me tend to think they know the 9mm is inferior in stopping power.

[DeltaElite]

All the stopping percentages are worthless at best.
These geniuses tell me that the same bullet at a higher velocity is less effective, when applied to 40 vs 10mm. :rolleyes:
Yet when you apply the same higher velocity to 9, 38, 40, 45, etc, you get a more effective load. :rolleyes:

Now we all know that is about shot placement and you should shoot what you can shoot accurately.
Honestly, I like the 40, but it aint a 10mm or 45acp in effectiveness, IMHO.
Of course, I can't get a 10mm or 45acp in the size of a Kahr 40, so each has its place. :D

[rock jock]

.40 S&W is an enfeebled derivative of the more powerful, flexible, accurate and safe 10mm Auto cartridge.
10mm wasn't considered for comparison. If it was, the 9mm and .45 ACP also lose out

.40 S&W is the least accurate of the major self defense autoloader cartridges.
At combat range (less than 25 yds), accuracy is largely dependent on the shooter. Differences in accuracy at that range are miniscule.

.40 S&W is the most prone to case failures of the major self-defense autoloader cartridges... too much pressure in too weak of a case.
Way overblown. Most .40 failures are from improper handloads.

.40 S&W has worse recoil than .45 ACP, and in return makes smaller holes in the target.
Recoil is subjective. When you get used to the .40, the recoil difference goes away. "Smaller hole?". Yeah, that extra 0.05" is going to make a huge difference in lethality.

.40 S&W has almost exactly the same muzzle energy in most loadings as 9x19mm +P & +P+ loads, making its claims of "superior stopping power" compared to 9x19mm seem spurrious.
Almost, but not quite, making their claim of superior stopping power in fact correct. And, I would note, recoil in a +P 9mm IMO is much more noticeable than that of the .40.

[meathammer]

I have to disagree with the .40 being inaccurate. My first semi was a Beretta 96. I find it to be very accurate. It met and exceeded my expectations. Especially for a military/combat style pistol. I do, however prefer shooting my 45. In my opinion, variety is a good thing and you should choose your preference.

[Beren]

I simply have no use for the .40S&W.

Personal taste, I guess - I use a .22 or 9mm for target practice, carry a 357SIG, and have a 10mm (S&W 1076 rocks!) for fun. I plan to add a .44 Mag revolver at some point, and maybe a .357 Mag revolver too..along with a .38 snubbie, of course! Then my collection shall be complete - except for the .45 1911 or three I want...

But no burning desire for a .40S&W.

If I /really/ need to shoot .40S&W, I'll drop a Glock 23 barrel in my Glock 32.

[cratz2]

I've sold off most of my 40s except for my EAA Silver Team which I never have any plans on carrying.

Keep in mind, this is only my opinion. How I see it, a sensible person that has full control over their decision to carry has two choices in serious carry pistols: a small, medium or large 45 ACP or a very small 9mm.

If you practice a lot and are familiar with your carry piece, you will very rarely need over 22 rounds of ammo so a 4", 4.25" or 5" 1911 fills the bill nicely with an easy to control package that is capable of competition accuracy and utter reliability once some bugs get worked out, if there are any. I've long been skeptical for any civilian to feel a neccessity to carry 60+ rounds of ammo on their person - I just can't see it. For Glock fans, there is the 21, for SIG fans there is the 220 and for Beretta fans, well... there are always 1911s, Glocks and SIGs. If an Officer model is too large or more importantly, heavy, then there is the Glock 36 or even the PT145 which may or may not be in favor these days, I stopped keeping up.

If all of these are too large, there are the small polymer Kahrs in 9mm. If you're wearing your Speedos, then a carefully concealed P32 (or soon to be released KelTec 380) fills the bill.

I've never seen the reasons for a civilian to carry a 40. If you are a responsible CCW, then you hit what you aim at. Almost every single time. There shouldn't ever be 50 missed shots! That's ridiculous! If you have decided to use lethal force against your adversary, you should want as big a hole in him/her as possible and that means a 45. You hit what you aim at or else you more than likely shouldn't be shooting. If you plan on multiple targets, then 2 shots per target (more than likely will be less than 5) is still covered by the 1911. If you have more than 5 bad guys after you, then you probably need a semi auto rifle and should probably consider being nicer to people. ;)

[bountyhunter]

"If you have decided to use lethal force against your adversary, you should want as big a hole in him/her as possible and that means a 45."

No, hole size does not automatically equal maximum lethality. If you want one shot kills, just get a .357 magnum with 125 gr hollow points.

[91101]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen, can't we all just get along? :D Why must we always get into these "my gun/bullet is better than yours" peeing matches? :o I have firearms chambered in .380 .38 .357 .40 .44 and 10mm and would trust any of them for self defense. That being said if I had to fire one in self defense I wouldn't rely ANY of them for a one shot stop if you know what I mean. ;) As far as being acurate I feel the design of the gun and the person behind it has more to do with it than anything else. Personally Im most acurate with my .44 mag, its the gun I've had longest and shot the most.

Michael

[Blueduck]

Why must we always get into these "my gun/bullet is better than yours" peeing matches? I have firearms chambered in .380 .38 .357 .40 .44 and 10mm and would trust any of them for self defense.

So are you volunteering to stand downrange and catch my 41 magnum rounds 'cause you think they're no good:cuss:

;)

[91101]

'cause you think they're no good

Blueduck, HUH? From where in my post did you get that idea? :banghead: I didn't mention the .41 because i don't HAVE one. Re-read my post...

[meathammer]

Quote:

How I see it, a sensible person that has full control over their decision to carry has two choices in serious carry pistols: a small, medium or large 45 ACP or a very small 9mm.

cratz2,

Unfortunately, Wisconsin does not allow CCW. Therefore, I do not purchase any firearm designed specifically for carry. When I bought my .40, the pistol I wanted came in two calibers - .40 or 9mm. I chose the .40. I am happy with my .40, and will never get rid of it. I also have handguns in .44, .45, and .22. I like them all.

[Blueduck]

Sorry 91101, notice the winky at the end of the post. My attempt at levity:o

[91101]

Blueduck;

Opps.... I was trying to be a smart @$$ in my post and didn't realize you were doing the same...

mybad...

Michael

[Sarge]

is the .40 the best "all around"?

To fit that description for me, it would have to do double-duty as a hunting round for deer-sized game, up to 250-300 pounds. The .40 might do that OK, but I doubt it would do it as well as a 255 SWC at 850 from a .45 auto- which can, incidentally, convert to .450 Triton (230 XTP @ 1150) with the addition of a 24 lb. spring.

That's just if you're talking autos. When you get into revolver country, there are a whole host of 'better than .40' candidates beginning with the .357 through the .44 mags and ending somewhere up around- where? .45 Caliber.

The .40 turned out OK, made a nice little mid-bore for folks who feel the need to pack a box of shells around on their belt (in $100 hi-caps) everywhere they go. I personally liked the 10 allright, but I wouldn't trade a good big-bore off to get one. I wouldn't part with a good .357 for one either, for that matter.

It seems necessary to re-invent the wheel every few decades, to satisfy the fad-fueled and the federal gubmit; the .40, despite its virtues, is about as good an example of this phenomenon as one can find. I believe I'll stick with my poor obsolete old war-horses and shut up while you pups rediscover the sword of Excalibur.

Good shootin-

[PCRCCW]

You guys are all grounded...go to your ranges and dont come home until I say so! :neener:
Just a note on the accuracy of the 40 vs other guns/calibers...
What causes the 40 to be less accurate than any other caliber?
Explain please if you can...................
Im just curious...my last full race/competition/target gun was my Kahr K40 Custom....with the Mep nights and trigger work...it would do 2" at 15 yds all day...if I did my part. Its one of those HUGE 3 1/2" MATCH BARRELS also......Ba ha ha ha ha ha :evil:
Shoot well.....

[Handy]

Ten years of gun rag reading. One month they test the 9mm Omni Blaster 2000, the next month its .40 version. Rag writers love the .40, yet they honestly report the groups for both and the .40 is almost never as accurate as the 9mm version. This is more pronounced in some guns, like Glock, than others, like the USP.

I think guns designed around .40 have a better chance at excellent accuracy. Maybe the accuracy "problem" stems for the blunt shape of the .40 cartridge feeding less consistently than 9 or .45.

BTW, that 2" group at 15 yards is a 3.5" group at 25 yards. Right after the first K9 came out I saw someone group 2" at 25 yards. Of course, all defence cartridges are in the same ballpark, but if you've been shooting for accuracy long enough, those slight differences in accuracy get annoying.

[cratz2]

No, hole size does not automatically equal maximum lethality. If you want one shot kills, just get a .357 magnum with 125 gr hollow points.

I've read on the topic ad infinitum and will stick with the 45. It has no doubt killed more bad guys (and good guys in the other uniform) than the 357 ever will. No slight against the 357 as it is obviously a good stopper. But a lot goes into those 'one shot stops' that is very misleading.

A .45 caliber hole into and out of someone, expanding or not, is likely to slow them down from doing whatever it is they are doing that caused you to shoot them. End of story.

[bountyhunter]

"What causes the 40 to be less accurate than any other caliber?
Explain please if you can..................."

"Rag writers love the .40, yet they honestly report the groups for both and the .40 is almost never as accurate as the 9mm version."

And yet, I'm stuck with this STI Trojan (1911) in .40SW. The stupid thing just keeps drilling holes in the 10 ring at 25 yards. Just last night, it insisted on posting a 599/600 at PPC (half of the rounds fired at 25 yards, half at 15).

I've explained to it that the 1911 was never designed for the shorter cartridge so it can't chamber it properly. I've explained that the .40SW is inherently inaccurate. I even point out that the ammo it's shooting is the cheapest reload junk I can find ($120/case), but the stupid gun won't listen. What are you going to do with a gun like that (answer: shoot it every week).

[Sean Smith]

Confusing generalities with specifics, and tendencies with certainties.

[Mike Irwin]

Ah Jesus...

Here we go!

[Onslaught]

cratz2, your first post seemed very contradictory, and made very little sense to me... the lowly Civilian. This will probably sound like a flame, but it's REALLY not....

I've long been skeptical for any civilian to feel a neccessity to carry 60+ rounds of ammo on their person - I just can't see it. This first line of reasoning sounds like you're alluding to a "spray and pray" mentality. That's always been the WonderNiner's label. A person who chooses the .40 over the 9mm in an otherwise identical pistol is opting to carry LESS rounds that are arguably MORE powerful. You will have to look hard to find a non-leo that regularly carries 3 spare mags on them (well, Blackhawk maybe ;) ) From what I've gathered on TFL over the years, most concealed carrying "Civilians" (myself included) usually only carry 1 spare, which gives me only 21 rounds from my big CCW, or 13 from my little CCW.

there is the 21, for SIG fans there is the 220 and for Beretta fans, well... there are always 1911s, Glocks and SIGs. If an Officer model is too large or more importantly, heavy, then there is the Glock 36 or even the PT145 None of these are as small as the similar offerings in .40 (Glock 27, Sig 239, PT140).

If all of these are too large, there are the small polymer Kahrs in 9mm. Why not a small polymer Kahr in .40? Exact same size pistol, one less round, more potent caliber.

I've never seen the reasons for a civilian to carry a 40. It always makes me nervous when someone who doesn't consider themselves a "Civilian" just DECIDES that I, as a "Civilian", have no reason to carry XXX or shouldn't do XXX.

If you are a responsible CCW, then you hit what you aim at. Almost every single time. There shouldn't ever be 50 missed shots! 50 missed shots? That's usually reserved for a small group of LAPD's finest firing their Glock 9mm's at an unarmed perp, isn't it? :neener:

If you have decided to use lethal force against your adversary, you should want as big a hole in him/her as possible and that means a 45. Not if they don't MAKE a pistol the size and style we "Civilians" might want in .45... So using your own logic, if I only have 2 choices, a 9mm or a .40... I should want a .40, right?

I agree with you that I should want to make as big a hole as possible, and I choose the venerable .45 for all my "big guns", but since I prefer the convenience of small, thin, lighter weight pistols for CCW, I have chosen the .40 over the 9mm as my concealed carry caliber.

And I'm not going to even get into the already slow .45acp's velocity loss from short barrels...

:D

[mr. e]

Just for the record, don't group me with those who think the 40 auto is less accurate than the other calibers. I simply said that I shot the 9mm and 45 ACP calibers more accurately.

I have a friend who regularly beats me at slowfire targets. He uses his Walther P99 40 Auto, and I use my CZ-85 9mm, which I've found to be one of the most consistent and accurate pistols I own. I'd say we were pretty evenly matched with these weapons. If I used my 40, I think he'd win most of the time.

[agtman]

"And yet, I'm stuck with this STI Trojan (1911) in 40SW. [It] just keeps drilling holes in the 10 ring at 25 yards."


It probably does. :scrutiny: So will just about any hand-tuned, customized target or competition pistol available in the calibers typically discussed on this Board.

My comments on the .40's motley accuracy referred to the out-of-the-box service grade pistols that I've personally shot and seen shot, like Smiths, Glocks, and Sigs - not high-priced customized eye-candy.

[Fair 'n Square]

The one-shot-stopping power percentages of Marshall and Sanow may, or may not, be valid. "I only know what I read," as the man says. My gut feeling is that the .40 and .45 (with JHP's) are more effective that the 9mm, but NOT TOO MUCH.
So here's what is right for me: The .45 and the .40 are at the upper limits of controllable recoil for a carry gun, and then only in guns 2 pounds or more. Yes, the 10mm is more powerful, but I wouldn't want to practice with it as a carry gun. A hunting gun? Yes, but not a carry gun.
I have a Kahr K9 and a Ruger P95, close to the same weight at 1.5 pounds or a little more, and they're both fine to shoot, and I like them both enough to practice with them. And they both work for me as carry guns.
I also have a Ruger P94 in .40 cal. at about 2.2 pounds. It's also fun to shoot. But I wouldn't want it to be lighter. My son has a .40 that weighs about the same as my 9's, and he's working on getting rid of a flinch caused by the recoil.
For those that can handle the recoil, more power to them. As for me, I'll stick with what I'm willing to practice with.

[WonderNine]

9mm is more accurate than .40's

9mm is more reliable in feeding (and all around) than .40's

9mm is available in NATO waterproofed spec

hot 9mm have just as much energy as hot .40's

9mm's hold more rounds in a smaller lighter package than .40's

9mm is MUCH cheaper to shoot than .40.

9mm has better ballistics...oh wait, I already said that :cool:

[WonderNine]

The perfect carry ammo....

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/nato.jpg

[WonderNine]

Alot of people really like this stuff

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/ranger127grSXT.jpg

I think it's great too, but it's kinda pricey. The last case I bought will probably be the last one ever.

[OF]

I've come to the conclusion that the 10mm is the all-around most versatile automatic handgun cartridge available. It is also my opinion that the .40 is a solution in search of a problem.

9mm, 10mm and .45ACP, with the proper ammunition, are the best answers to pretty much any problem you may need to solve with an auto-loading handgun.

- Gabe

[BadJohn]

I have a bone stock Walther P99 in .40 that also has an uncanny
ability to find the 10 ring.One of the most accurate pistols I've ever fired.This kind of blows a hole in the customized eye candy theory.

[bountyhunter]

"I've come to the conclusion that the 10mm is the all-around most versatile automatic handgun cartridge available. It is also my opinion that the .40 is a solution in search of a problem."

Maybe, but the market place voted on that question and here's how it turned out: the 10mm round was here first, and despite that, is nearly extinct now (and very expensive because of it). The .40SW is taking off like wildfire and manufacturers are offering more models in that caliber which will accelerate it's gain in market share (even Kimber holds their noses and makes some .40's now).

In the next decade the .40 will likely displace the 9mm as the service caliber of choice. The 10mm will be about as common as a 454 Casull.

[seeker_two]

Maybe, but the market place voted on that question and here's how it turned out:

Yeah, but the marketplace also made Glock & the Osbornes popular... :banghead:

The 10mm will still be around. And people will rediscover how well it works. And I hope it shares the same fate as the .454 (new guns introduced every year).

It deserves its fate...:D

[denfoote]

10mm, what the 40 short and weak wants to be.
No such thing as knockdown, unless you hit them with your car.

Hey Delta,
My GLOCK 29 does both!!! :neener:

[DeltaElite]

Alright. I've had enough. ;)

The 40 is popular because it fits in a 9mm frame and it recoils softly for all the wimps who are afraid the 10mm will rip their arm off. :neener:

The 10mm is a victim of bad press and lies.
All the cracked frame reports, arm amuptation reports and lastly the FBI wimps that couldn't handle the load ruined the public perception of the 10mm.
You can load the 10mm with a 135@1500 all the way to a 220@1000. Now that's versatile. :D

As for the marketplace speaking, well these are the same people who bought the Yugo, decided that Rap was music and think that Taco Bell is Mexican food. :p

The 10mm will never be very popular, since it is an acquired taste born of knowledge and class. :D

[BadJohn]

I have nothing against the 10mm.My problem is I don't reload and the ammo isn't common enough to just stop and pick up a box on the way to the range.

[DQed]

Less is more? The police arm it's people to the lowest common denomenator. A 120 pound petite framed woman has to be armed with a department sevice weapon. If you are too small .45's hurt ! Plastic guns absorb some recoil. So politics, political correctness and plastic have reduced the search for the best manstopper to the .40 short n weak.
I have one as I shoot USPSA limited class(oxymoron?). It's fun to shoot, holds lot's rounds and if the rules change can be converted to .45.
I hope I have stirred the pot enough to mingle the flavors. ;)

[Min]

I don't own a 10mm, but will shortly!

If I find myself alone in an environment I'm not familiar with, like on the side of a highway at night, I'll feel better with a 10mm than any other caliber. It's just more firepower. I for one hope it makes a comeback. The .45 is second favorite.

[Poohgyrr]

Stopping power and handguns ??

Well maybe a good headshot...

You guys need to shoot a .40 Hi Power. More accurate and reliable than my good G23.

Quit all this girlie-man crybaby stuff and just go shoot.

Personally. for stopping power, cars are the bomb !!!!!!
:neener:

[Blueduck]

Don't really have an opinion on the 10mm one way or another, but with all the .40 bashing just a thought:

Think of how much money time and effort ammo companies spend to come up with the "best" 40 S/W ammo. All those huge LE contracts Federal, Sate and Local provide a lot of insentive to develope the best loads possible. Tuning the jackets for just the right amount of strength for proper penetration but soft enough to expand well, but not too much. Powder selection for the highest velocity, but also low flash and accuracy etc...

Now think how much time and effort these same companies spend developing a 10mm round :scrutiny:

[Handy]

The same argument applies to 9mm and .380. Would you argue that they are superior to .357 Magnum, since that hasn't been a popular cop round since the '80s?

[DeltaElite]

"Best 40sw round".
That's like asking which year was the best for the Yugo. ;) :neener:

Actually most manufacturers just load their 40sw rounds into the 10mm case.
Since the 10mm has the velocity that the 40sw does not, all that research into expansion is not as necessary. ;)

[Poohgyrr]

Actually, I always thought the 10mm looked pretty good. The main complaint I hear is "too much recoil that is uncontrollable." (Other than pistol durability issues- which is an engineering problem, not a cartridge issue.)

Folks said, and still say, the same about other rounds, like 357 & 44 Mags, & the 45 ACP. Then I remember people shoot the "Handcannons" in calibers that make these rounds look puny.

I know the .357 Magnum shoots much softer in a 1911 (Coonan) than in a 4" midframe revolver. So the 10mm in an auto should shoot easier than a 4" 41 Magnum. So OK, the 10MM should be fine.

But my .40's shoot a heavier bullet faster than the 9x19, and this has to be better. If it is not better, then why do we have more powerful rounds than the standard velocity 9x19???? :neener:

[Blueduck]

The same argument applies to 9mm and .380. Would you argue that they are superior to .357 Magnum, since that hasn't been a popular cop round since the '80s?-Handy

I'd compare the situation more to 357 versus 41 magnum in the eighties. 357 caliber had lots of proven street rounds available for it. 41 Magnum was more powerfull, but unpopular and only had a handfull of loads that people suspected would be better. Yes it that case I'd take 357 ;)

[Shake]

I've still never heard a good explanation for "inherent accuracy". For those of you who claim that the .40 S&W is not as accurate as the .45 or 9mm explain why it is not. No generalities please. If it isn't as accurate, there is a physical reason why it is not. I'd like to hear that reason. I've heard plenty of "It just isn't as accurate" explanations.

Seriously, we are talking about straight-walled cases with no large deviation in velocity. All of these different caliber projectiles are launched via an explosion in a straight walled case and travel down a rifled barrel. Why is it that a 9mm projectile will travel more accurately than a .40 caliber projectile (given equal quality of ammo, firearm, etc.)?

I'm no big fan of any particular caliber although I only own one .40, but several 9mms and .45s. The .40 I do own (H&K USP full size) is the most accurate gun I own in my hands. If I were to lock them all in a vise, I suspect my Kimber or CZ may beat it. I honestly shoot it more accurately than anything else I've ever fired.

Shake

[Poohgyrr]

Heck, we all know there is only one "inherently accurate" cartridge, and this is the S&W .44 Special , especially when loaded into a S&W N frame revolver....
:neener:

[WESHOOT2]

You can get 10m from 135g @ 1800fps up to a 220g @ 1300fps.

The 40 S&W is ...................... another caliber choice; better than rocks.
Excellent in R-P 155g JHP.

The 10mm is a good auto-loader cartridge.
So's the .355"-bore calibers except 380, and .400" stuff, and the 41 AE, and 45 ACP, and who cares if you don't make good hits?

"Caliber of shooter"; "...there are only accurate guns..."; hasn't changed.

[agtman]

"The 40 S&W is .......... another caliber choice; better than rocks."


Maybe, but not near as accurate. :D

[KP95DAO]

Yes, I keep telling myself: 40 Short and Weak, 40 Short and weak, ...... as I send round after round of 155 gr JHP down range at 1300 fps. And I keep telling my hand and wrist that, "Really, we don't need a heavier gun, that G32 with the FAC 40 bbl, is enough to tame the recoil. And besides if you guys do your part it delivers 3" groups at 25 yds offhand. So quit your bitching, we'll shoot the 9mm or 45 for a while and give you a rest.

[Handy]

Shake,

It is probably not correct to say the .40 is an inherently innaccurate cartridge. Load it into a Contender and it could be the same as any other (people used to say that 9mm wasn't accurate).

However, the USP you mention is probably a clue to what is going on. The USP was designed around the .40 cartridge. Most other .40s were not and had to make use of steep feed ramps and large chamber clearences to get the stubby cartridge into battery, despite only the space designated for a the long ogive, tapered 9mm cartridge.

So I would guess that factors like:
1. Cartridge feed battering affecting overall case shape and setback.
2. Bullet/bore alignment from the loose chamber.
3. Varying lockup due to feed drag. Both the degree and amount of time the action is locked from shot to shot can have a big affect on where the barrel is pointing when the bullet leaves it.

If you want a 100% fact based analysis of the problem, that's going to be tough. Last I heard, no one was 100% on why Enfield Jungle Carbines have wandering zeros either, and that's a 60 year old problem. But many have experienced decreased accuracy with .40 pistols, and they question why they need to trade any accuracy to switch to this new caliber.

Nice to hear from you.

[bountyhunter]

BTW: if the .40SW was indeed "INHERENTLY INACCURATE", you would not be able to build guns that shoot it accurately. Since I own three that do, it follows the statement that the .40SW is inherently inaccurate is wrong. If you own a .40 gun that shoots consistently inaccurately, blame the gun maker. BTW: two of my .40 tackdrivers are 1911's, so the old BS about the 1911 not being able to chamber the shorter round is.... BS.

[BHP9]

I've still never heard a good explanation for "inherent accuracy". For those of you who claim that the .40 S&W is not as accurate as the .45 or 9mm explain why it is not. No generalities please. If it isn't as accurate, there is a physical reason why it is not. I'd like to hear that reason. I've heard plenty of "It just isn't as accurate" explanations.

The answer is quite simple. It is not the cartridge, it can be very accurate but it is the mid size guns it is chambered in which results in a lot sharper recoil than that which is found in the larger framed .45Acp guns like the 1911. The result is that few people shoot the .40 as well as the milder recoiling 9mm or the .45 acp.

[Handy]

You can stick a Glock 17 and a Glock 23 in a Ransom rest and you will get different accuracy.

[BHP9]

1. Chambered in mid-size auto's. Results in excess recoil which results in shooters not doing their best with it and results in mid-side handguns being battered mechanically at relatively low round counts.

Pictures abound on the net showing the early battering and wear this cartridge causes with mid-frame size guns. One of the reasons its predecessor the 10mm was such a failure was its destruction of even full size framed handguns.

2. Kabooms due to bullet setback. It has been reported in the major gun press that bullet set back as little as 1/10 of an inch in the cartridge will cause pressures to skyrocket and this coupled with guns like the Glock that have generous throating results in an expoded weapon. There are plenty of graphic pictures proving this statement. http://cmty.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-glock-dir.html

Combat Handguns magazine reported last year that even high quality guns like the High Power and rugged guns like the Ruger P85 and other guns like the Glock all blew up with Factory 40 S&W ammo. A Shocking story beause most of the time most gun rags most often bend over backwards to publish positive things about guns and cartridges.

The Ruger when it blew up in 40 S&W with factory ammo, according to Combat Hanguns magazine sent its extractor through the head of a nearby shooter resulting in a fatality. This is One very good reason I do not stand anywhere near anyone shooting a 40 S&W no matter who manufactured the weapon.

3. The 40 has neither the high capacity or low recoil of the 9mm nor does it have the massive frontal area of the .45 acp. It is in my opinion the very worst of both worlds.

Even excellent modern designed pistols like the Walther P99 had no problems when chambered for the 9mm but the 40 was a different story, with problems relating to feeding and also early battering of the gun. Pictures on the net show this battering. If you do a lot of shooting the 40 is definately not the cartridge to choose unless you handload it way, way down.

[DeltaElite]

Mental note........
The 10mm is a failure. LOL :D
According to a 9mm fan. ROFL :D

[agtman]

"One of the reasons its predecessor the 10mm was such a failure was its destruction of even full size framed handguns."


:eek: Wow. Could you post some pictures of this devastation? 'Cause all the "full size framed handguns" in 10mm I shoot are still running fine - one approaching 4000 rds with no "destruction" in sight. :rolleyes:

"If you do a lot of shooting the 40 is definately not the cartridge to choose unless you handload it way, way down."

:confused:

The .40 is already loaded "way, way down." In point of fact, it's a very watered-down 10mm, especially with the 170 and 180gn bullets. That was the initial idea - let's cut back on the length of the 10mm's case, thereby creating a shorter cartridge, and hopefully get low-end 10mm "stopping-power" out of 9mm-sized pistols. :scrutiny:

[Handy]

Let's not kid ourselves: 10mm IS a commercial failure. Not as big as .41AE, but only slightly more popular than .41 Magnum. Did the reports of cracked Delta frames contribute? Possibly.


And BHP9 wasn't comparing .40 to 10mm, he was saying that .40's SAAMI operating pressure is too high, in his opinion. The extractor story published in a national magazine lends some credence to this opinion.

He seems to also be a .45 fan. Not just 9mm.

[BadJohn]

My Walther p99 in .40 functions and shoots quite nicely.No battering here.

[45-auto]

Everybody should pack the biggest caliber they shoot well and that's comfortable for them.

I won't begrudge anybody.

For me, however, the choices are two only: .45 ACP in the 1911 and .357 in any good, reasonably concealable wheelgun with tight timing.

Stainless preferred, but I love the look of good bluing too.

[KP95DAO]

"Combat Handguns magazine reported last year that even high quality guns like the High Power and rugged guns like the Ruger P85 and other guns like the Glock all blew up with Factory 40 S&W ammo. "

I would like to see how they got a 40 S&W round into a Ruger P85 chamber, since that gun is a 9mm. And I guess I missed that story. Which issue was it? I would like to look it up in my back issues.

[Rebel Gunman HK]

I have a 9mm, .40 S&W, & a .45 ACP. I shoot the same with all of them. I just accept whatever recoil the different calibers dish out, i dont go out and shoot my .40 S&W and whine about it kicking more than my other guns. Its not hurting me. I dunno, i've just never bought into the caliber wars. To me, they are all about the same size, have about the same recoil, and off hand are about the same accuracy. Maybe you guys could just relax a little and not worry about a few grains and just have fun. They'll all get the job done. Peace easy :neener:

[kidcoltoutlaw]

has anybody tried a barsto 5.5 inch barrel in a .40 s&w.how much gain over the 4 inch barrel,thanks,keith

[4thHorseman]

"The Ruger when it blew up in 40 S&W with factory ammo, according to Combat Hanguns magazine sent its extractor through the head of a nearby shooter resulting in a fatality. This is One very good reason I do not stand anywhere near anyone shooting a 40 S&W no matter who manufactured the weapon."-BHP9

Has anyone else ever heard this before?

[meathammer]

4th Horseman,

I wouldn't worry too much about .40S&W firearms kabooming. I have heard Glocks are more succeptable to this. In my opinion, ANY firearm is capable of blowing up. I have a Beretta 96 that I have shot for years. (It's almost 6 years old now.) I have as much confidence in my .40 as any other of my handguns. If and when my Beretta kabooms, I'll be sure to post it here. After I dislodge the slide from my forehead. :rolleyes:

[HS/LD]

I am amazed at how bad the .40 is that I currently have on my hip.

I had no idea that it was inaccurate, slow, light and small.

I feel cheated! :mad:

My H&K USP Compact with its little 3 something inch barrel seemed to fire these .40s downrange at surprising accuracy and now I realise I could have been having much more fun with a 9mm 10mm or .45 :mad: :banghead: :cuss:

I shoot off hand groups at self-defense ranges that cause one ragged hole. I could have been shooting them all through one hole with a 9mm or .45!! :(

I want my money back.

My 165 Remington bullets exit at 1150fps and have 485lb/ft of energy.

I could have had a .45 from Remington in 230 grain that has a superior 391lb/ft, or a 9mm 115 grain the maxes out at 399lb/ft.

Anyone want to buy a cheap H&K USP Compact in .40 Short&Weak.
Extremely accurate and fires with all the lb/ft of energy you could want , has thousands and thousands of rounds through without a single hiccup..... perhaps I should let the thing go free to a good home. :fire:

No I wouldn't want to burden some one with the evil .40 Short&Weak I am going to have the gun destroyed or better yet I will turn it in at the local Handgun Control, Inc. drop off place. :cuss:

HS/LD

[Beorn]

Okay, could anyone tell me something?

If the .40S&W is such a terrible cartridge design for an auto-loader, and it is so inaccurate, and it obviously is a marketing ploy, then how come it still used so often?

I have several friends who are Border Patrol in So. Cal. As a matter of fact, one of them is a shooting instructor for INS. He has nothing but praise for his Beretta 96.

Come to think of it, doesn't the U.S. Border Patrol kick the crap out of the other law enforcement agencies in the shooting competitions? (see --->NRA Story on Border Patrol Shooters (http://www.mynra.com/display_content/show_content.cfm?mod_id=57&id=4169) )

They almost all carry .40S&W, right? Beretta 96s, right? I mean, the Beretta USA website says-->

In the fall of 1996, Beretta U.S.A. was awarded a follow-on contract for 16,000 .40 caliber pistols by the Immigration & Naturalization Service. Combined with the agency's original 16,000-pistol contract in 1995, it represents the largest single purchase of pistols ever made by a federal law enforcement agency.

Now, I'm curious. These LEOs are "in the trenches" nearly every day. They are put in some hairy situations (as nearly all of our men and women in LE are). Would they wllingly allow themselves to receive inferior equipment, knowing that their lives and the lives of their brothers and sisters in Law Enforcement would be in jeopardy?

I have heard so much about this. Are there any INS agents on THR that could illuminate the situation?:)

[.45Ruger]

I've never experienced the escess recoil that people talk about in the .40. I shoot my SA-XD .40 as well as my 1911. To me they are both fine guns that I enjoy shooting and have alot of confidence in them both.

[Beorn]

The Federal Government just started a pilot program for pilots...

Seriously, this program would place a semi-automatic pistol within reach of the pilot and/or any crew member that has been trained on its use.

The gun, a S&W semi-auto.

The caliber, .40S&W.

So, the Federal Government, who wants to be the good guy, is placing an inferior weapon on a plane where hundreds of lives may depend on it?

Once again, someone please explain it to me. I don't own a 40S&W, and I may never, so I'm not being subjective. I really want to know how the Feds could be duped so completely, if in fact they are.

[cratz2]

Onslaught, sorry for not replying sooner. We've been moving lately and I've been slackin' ;)

I can only speak from my personal experience, which is admittedly limited. The three shooters I know that carry a G17 carry two full spare magazines.

As for the different pistol sizes (G36 vs G27, PT140 vs PT145) I was more eluding to the fact that I can have a very similar sized pistol in 45ACP vs the 40S&W, I would take the 45.

The one Kahr in 40 I fired was too much for me to control in anything faster than very slow fire. Double taps are completely out where they were very controlable with the 9mm.

I am just a mere civilian myself. No LE, no military. Greatly respect most of those who are, but I am not. My whole 'civilian' reference comes from the fact that many LE jurisdictions went to the 40S&W from the 9mm that carried FMJ ammo. Many of those decisions would have been uneeded had quality HP ammo been carried in the 9mm pistols.

The main point I was, feebly, trying to make is that if you read most accounts of civilian :p shootings, very rarely are more than 3 shots fired. The delusions of grandeur that lead to some folks carrying said G17 and two full cap spare mags are just that... delusions. One of the reasons the 357 edges out the 9mm, 40S&W and even 45ACP in the silly OSS percentages is due to the shooter and the oft considerable experience that wheel gun carrying LEOs have. Plus the mindset that you only have six quick shots instead of 18. And the fact that if you were to take a survey of LEOs that either carry a S&W Model 19 and those that carry a G17 or G22, the G17/G22 shooters are more likely to have used their weapon than the 357 carriers and are more likely to have had less real training than the S&W carriers. Anyway, if you know you are probably only going to be using those 3 shots, I personally would rather have a 45. If I want a smaller arm, I will opt for a 9mm as I can shoot a small light 9mm with hot loads better than I can shoot a small light 40 with hot loads. To those that can shoot the 40 equally well, by all means, carry it. Or maybe it's just that 40S&W cases tend to piss off folks that reload for the 45ACP. ;)

And no flame intended or taken on my part. Just opposing viewpoints.

[cratz2]

And as to why so many agencies carry the 40, as I said in my previous post, many agencies mandated FMJ carry in the 9mm. They were less than stunningly successful and many began to look for other options. I don't think anyone was 'duped' as much as there were several vocal 45ACP advocates at the same time when many agencies that issued 9mm were looking for a replacement AND when S&W was coming out with the .40. Not to mention the fact that many agencies followed suit changing to the 40S&W after the FBI. When folks that don't really much know what they're talking about make such decisions, following suit, no doubt, plays a fairly major role in their decisions.

It's a perfectly fine caliber but it has to be admitted that it is a compromise caliber. If you want bit bullets, you get the 45ACP, if you want a 'high cap' with small fast bullets, you take the 9mm. If you don't want a whole bunch of bullets but you don't want too little, the 40 is the answer, I guess.

Regardless of how much you talk up your personal preference, two well-placed shots of a reliably expanding HP into the center of mass of an average human target will cause said target to slow down. Period. Maybe not flop over dead on the spot, but will give the shooter a tactical avantage to move in for a more permanent and fatal shot into the ocular/nasal area. Doesn't matter much if it's a 115 or 124 Gr 9mm, 155 or 165 Gr 40S&W or a 200 or 230 Gr 45ACP.

[DTOM]

Gee, ballistics data beats an ocean of conflicting opinions. I've read a mountain of articles on what the best cartridge is from the labratory testers to the street fighters. It becomes a matter of balancing factors if you want to optimise the physics of the ballistics.

However, absolutely nothing beats the accurately placed shot from someone who knows where to place it. That's not my humble opinion, just an opinion I've read from many street and combat wise gun-fighters.

Find the caliber that works best for you. Find the gun that you can point the best and shoot the best. Practice till you can put the bullet right where you mean for it to go and don't look back.

Good luck.

[Handy]

I don't think anybody believes a .40 caliber bullet weighing BLANK and travelling at BLANK velocity is garbage.

Besides the comparisons to 10mm, the .40s parent, I don't think the main thrust of the negative .40 posts has been its ballistics or street performance. I had thought the main idea was that the engineering of the cartridge itself was questionable. Along with that, the reverse engineered 9mm pistols it has found it's way into.

[emann]

The best round will be the .40 Springfield Armory with a .45 sized casing and a .40 sized bullet. :eek:

[kidcoltoutlaw]

if you keep your loads at what the book says,for the 10mm.you can use longshot and get very close to 10mm loads.with the short and weak.i love it brass is much cheaper than it is for the 45 acp.so are the bullets.

[care-less]

BadJohn, 40 is an excellent round, 10mm and 45 are better! Sean, case failures in the 40 are entirely confined to Glock pistols, in my experience. They were in such a rush to market them, they just drilled out the 9, and found it wouldn't feed. No problem, just mill in a more angled ramp, so what if it eats into the chamber!! Manufacturers of brass had to thicken up the web of the 40 in lieu of Glocks slop. Don't get me wrong, I love Glocks, but would not own one in 40. My 32, at even higher pressure doesn't suffer the problem. All you 40 shooters out there ( I am one too, Sigma and Sig) take your barrel out, and insert a cartridge. Look at the 6 o'clk position. Glock has a lot of brass showing. Steyr, Sig, Sig, HK, have none. Think about it. The one really lame thing Glock has done.:uhoh:

[MCNETT]

Geez, I just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading this thread! :banghead:
-Mike

[Chris Pinkleton]

me too. :)


why do people complain about topics like this then post anyway?

whoops.

[care-less]

Sorry boys, didn't realize that you didn't want an answer, or that you couldn't read that in 20sec. bye.