[majstoll]

http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m10d19-US-Postal-Service-enforces-gun-ban-in-public-parking-lots

SNIP

USPS spokesperson Joanne Vito told the Examiner.com that 39 CFR 232.1(l)


“applies to anyone coming into a Post Office or a Postal facility. The regulation prohibiting the possession of firearms or other weapons applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service. . . . Both open and concealed possession are prohibited, so storage of a weapon on a car parked in a lot that is under the charge and control of the Postal Service would be prohibited.”

. . .

Philip Van Cleave, President of the Virginia Citizens Defense League . . . said that the Postal Service is just “setting a trap” for the many gun owners who now carry their guns on a daily basis and may not even know about this parking lot gun ban. “Even the National Park gun ban allowed folks to store their guns in their cars,” said Van Cleave . . .

[chris in va]

Oh great. We try to obey the law, now this.

[mljdeckard]

First of all, we follow the law period. It is illegal to carry in your car onto postal service property. When I (RARELY) go to a post office, I park off property.

BUT, if someone WERE to park on the parking area of a strip mall in FRONT of the post office, in a parking spot marked 'postal customers only', how would the postal service justify searching the car and finding the gun?

Let's make it easier. The only thing that I need to go to the post office for is passport stuff. Use UPS. Don't go to the post office AT ALL.

[freakshow10mm]

Not this crap again.

[ChaoSS]

First off, wouldn't they be required to post signs stating that you can't bring a gun onto the property? Even buildings like courthouses, where everybody pretty well knows you can't bring guns, have to be very clearly marked as such.


Let's make it easier. The only thing that I need to go to the post office for is passport stuff. Use UPS. Don't go to the post office AT ALL.Unless I'm missing something, the UPS does not do letter delivery.

Some of us don't have mailboxes in front of our houses, and have to go to the post office in order to pick up and send our mail.

[tasco 74]

Life is short.....

[Quoheleth]

Waitaminute...seriously? You can't leave a gun in your parked car in a USPS parking lot?

I'm not saying I broke the law :uhoh: but I'm going to have to re-arrange my post-office visits.

What's the law about drive-thru mailboxes on post office property? I'm not parking the car; I'm not even "standing" the car; only pausing momentarily to allow stamped mail to evacuate my automobile. Further, if a post office box is in a grocery store parking lot, does "postal property" include X-feet away from the box?

I'm serious, folks - this wasn't covered in my class. Yeah, I know...look it up...I am, here on THR.

Q

[DammitBoy]

I refuse to use the u.s.p.s. - the service is horrible, the shipping is less than good, the guarantee of delivery is worthless and now this crap.

[Oyeboten]

Hmmmmmmmm...can't an FFL Mail Guns using the USPS?

[blindhari]

All right let's start at the begining. The United States Postal Service predates the Constitution of the United States. The USPS predates because it was formed by Benjamin Franklin for the Continental Congress "to bind the nation together". It has never been a for profit business. It is a monopoly wholly owned by the USA and its regulations have gained the full force of law as enacted by the Congress, signature of the President and approval of the Supreme Court. Those regulations were lifted in large part from British law and the removal may not be possible. If you think the no firearms on postal property is a pain you ought to see some of the other things still on the books. If you want to know why they operate the way they do, ask a specific question and I'll try to answer it.

blindhari

Yeah, when I worked there I read all 18' of those regulations more than once.

[armsmaster270]

The law has been in play for years just not as publicized P.O.'s normally have a notice posted but not the gun with red slash.

[ChaoSS]

So, if it's not posted, does that mean it's not law?

Is it a law that it's illegal to have a gun on their property, or is it a PO rule, so they have to post signs, the same as any other business has to do?

[armsmaster270]

It is a federal law the section is noted on the sign they don't need 30-06 signs. It would be basically the same as carrying in a courthouse but no detector.

[evan price]

Guys.

You're forgetting Rule #1 of CCW:

"Concealed means concealed"

How often do you get a vehicle search when you go to the post office???

[goatboy66]

Guys, don't worry about it.
The strip out front is a retail parking lot.
I'm a postal worker and I've been arguing this issue w/ mgmt for years.
The guy who was convicted parked his car inside the postal working area, back where the trucks and docks are.
In other words, his vehicle was, essentially, INside the post office.
No, I'm not agreeing with it, in fact I'm DISagreeing with it.
What I'm saying is that it's nothing you guys have to worry about.
Don't carry inside, don't advertise that you have one in your car.

[goatboy66]

I refuse to use the u.s.p.s. - the service is horrible, the shipping is less than good, the guarantee of delivery is worthless and now this crap.

USPS has, consistently, scored as high or higher than the parcel posts for on-time delivery and, again consistently, beaten them on price.

Name another organization in the world that can take a letter for .42 and hand-carry it from San Diego to Vermont.

[benEzra]

Name another organization in the world that can take a letter for .42 and hand-carry it from San Diego to Vermont.
I believe it would be illegal for another organization to attempt to do so.

[atomd]

How often do you get a vehicle search when you go to the post office???

It's true that it's not likely your car will be searched....but there are other circumstances that could lead to that. A car being broken into, a car being stolen, a car fire, someone hitting/damaging your parked car, etc. While it might be a minute risk, it's still a risk. Stuff happens.

[jon_in_wv]

Sorry guys but if you check your CCW permit I would wager MOST of them say they don't authorize you to carry on Federal property. Most Post Offices are considered Federal property including the parking lot. Even if you CCW doesn't say it Federal property isn't under the jurisdiction of the state to make that determination.

I believe it would be illegal for another organization to attempt to do so.


I don't think the question was about legality, rather logistics and economics.

[JShirley]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt4frag3_user.html

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=643675355e1894bf2e7da0bbf174fb16&rgn=div6&view=text&node=41:3.1.1.3.22.3&idno=41
(§ 102-74.440 : I do note the wording says in not on)

[Dravur]

And in other news....

Water has been determined to be wet...
Having the flu will make you feel all yucky...
Communism sucks...

Oh, I thought this was the obvious news dept.....

Of course they have a parking lot ban. It has been out there for years... Just because they now say "Hey, we have a ban in our parking lots that has been in effect for years... Just thought you might like to know about it"

If I go to the Post Office, I just park across the street, leave the gun in the car and wander on in. Easy Peesy, Lemon Squeesy

[jon_in_wv]

Stop making sense Dravur.

[Flame Red]

So much for going Postal!

[chuckusaret]

The post office in my town is in a strip mall and the parking lot is shared with the other stores. I believe they would have a hard time enforcing the parking lot ban. QUESTION: How many people make visits to the post office. If I can't have it picked up by the letter carrier, I use fedex or UPS pickups. Way too inconvient for me to visit the post office. You can now buy all your mailing needs, including stamps, on the net and have them delivered more cheaply than driving to the post office.

[TexasRifleman]

Name another organization in the world that can take a letter for .42 and hand-carry it from San Diego to Vermont.

Other than business reasons, name WHY you'd need to send a letter hand carried from San Diego to Vermont.

[Landpimp]

mosty PO are on leased land, they seldome buy the dirt. Also like its been mentioned most are among other stores, not possible to enforce and really think they would have a hard time prosocuting. In my case, the PO is next to ACE and a Grocery store, land is owned by the Grocery store.

So the way they are talking, heck if I cant leave it my car....might as well take in the PO with me? ***?

[Claude Clay]

i can not remember a single instance where a gun fired in or on postal property was done so by anybody other than postal employees.

is it not more so that we who use the service need protection from those who work there? yet we who have not 'gone postal' are denied that ability.

--------------
who said "gun laws are like trying to stop drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to buy cars"?

[HarleyFixer]

If I go to the Post Office, I just park across the street, leave the gun in the car and wander on in. Easy Peesy, Lemon Squeesy

Easy for you. My post office is in an area with no other place to park for 2 blocks. :(

[zoom6zoom]

If I could buy Postal Money orders online, I'd never have to set foot in a PO again.

[NMGonzo]

USPS won't even ship ammo.

UPS does.

Guess who is getting my money.

[middy]

i can not remember a single instance where a gun fired in or on postal property was done so by anybody other than postal employees.

Point! :D

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m10d19-US-Postal-Service-enforces-gun-ban-in-public-parking-lots

SNIP

USPS spokesperson Joanne Vito told the Examiner.com that 39 CFR 232.1(l)


“applies to anyone coming into a Post Office or a Postal facility. The regulation prohibiting the possession of firearms or other weapons applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service. . . . Both open and concealed possession are prohibited, so storage of a weapon on a car parked in a lot that is under the charge and control of the Postal Service would be prohibited.”

. . .

Philip Van Cleave, President of the Virginia Citizens Defense League . . . said that the Postal Service is just “setting a trap” for the many gun owners who now carry their guns on a daily basis and may not even know about this parking lot gun ban. “Even the National Park gun ban allowed folks to store their guns in their cars,” said Van Cleave . . .
Now just how AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE POSTAL SERVICE OWNS, RENTS, LEASES, OR OTHERWISE IS IN CONTROL OF WHAT PROPERTIES?

The Federal Government and/or the USPS may be on the books for a parking lot that is not even near a Post Office, in which case, anyone having any weapon whasoever in that parking lot is committing a FELONY.

I'm fine with the law, but now they should really POST ALL OF THEIR PROPERTIES, so we are not inadvertantly committing a FELONY just by parking in a needed location!

If they DO NOT post any and all of their properties, then how are we, as ordinary citizens, supposed to know that we are BREAKING THE LAW in the first place? Are we supposed to go to the town offices and make a database of just what property is FEDERALLY and/or USPS OWNED? Of course, that is what it would need would be a database in order to keep track of all of this property that is FEDERALLY and/or USPS OWNED!

Is the intent really to make felons out of all of us?

[Superlite27]

How does Heller vs. DC fit in to this?

Didn't the Supreme Court rule that people have an individual right to own a firearm (we know this) and all the anti's are now trying to argue that this only applies to DC and not the Satetes because it is federally controlled?

......just like Post Office property.

How can it be argued that Heller vs. DC is only applicable to federal property, and then .......NOT have it apply to federal property?

I'm fuzzy on this.

[Mags]

What about states such as New Mexico that consider your vehicle an extension of your home and you have all the rights associated with sitting in your living room?

[ants]

I can not remember a single instance where a gun fired in or on postal property was done so by anybody other than postal employees. See? Gun bans work. Sara Brady told you so. Now it's proven.

(Ya didn't see that one coming, did ya?)

[texas bulldog]

Is the intent really to make felons out of all of us?

perhaps. the good news (sort of) is that post offices are dropping like flies. as email and commercial carriers continue to eat into their market share, and the postal service's budget gets tighter and tighter, POs have been closing in most cities. i know they announced a few months back that they were going to close 30% of them in my city.

so i guess you can look at that as the total amount of off-limits space being reduced...

[texas bulldog]

What about states such as New Mexico that consider your vehicle an extension of your home and you have all the rights associated with sitting in your living room?

easy. state law has no jurisdiction over federal property. that's a pretty well-established legal precedent.

[jon_in_wv]

How can it be argued that Heller vs. DC is only applicable to federal property, and then .......NOT have it apply to federal property?

People LIVE in DC. You don't LIVE at the Post Office. Its just a place of business and
hardly the same thing. By the logic your using then people would have a right to carry a firearm into a Federal Prison too. Heller did not take away the Governments right to regulate.

Also, speaking of Federal Prison. There are plenty of guys in there that were guilty of robbing the mail or violate attacks AT the Post Office. Its not just Postal Employees its just not the "hot topic" anymore. Just like carjackings haven't stopped just because you don't hear about them in the news anymore.

help me here....
i can not remember a single instance where a gun fired in or on postal property was done so by anybody other than postal employees.

You don't "remember" one because its probably not something you pay attention to.

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/story/876233.html

It took me about 20 seconds to find that one I'm sure I could find many more.

Here is another one shot right outside a post office.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHQGgm9fkNg

Post Offices get robbed just like any other businesses. EXPECIALLY since the robbers figure they won't have to worry about any armed citizens being in the store.

[BushyGuy]

wow i never knew that, thanks for the info i will park a block away from my post office and store my gun in the center console of my SUV. I dont want to risk losing my CCW permit.

[nathan]

Wow, USPS is getting pissy with gunowners. I bet they will leave a lot of gunowners pissed. I hope they will lose more business bec of this stupidity .

[Claude Clay]

its probably not something you pay attention to

i do pay attention as i read and follow the news as it is presented to me.

the road rage incident could have in front of McDonald's if that happened to be where they had stopped. that shooting had nothing besides proximity to do with a post office.
the first incident happed after costumer hours and was perpetrated by a criminal on postal property [ the loading area] where non-postal employees are not permitted.

yes these events happened on or near postal property. but except for location, they are not truly relevant to the direction of this discussion.

Post Offices get robbed just like any other businesses. EXPECIALLY since the robbers figure they won't have to worry about any armed citizens being in the store.


can you cite examples please of robberies during working hours inside a post office

[jon_in_wv]

Are you kidding me? Fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHDasdtRNYs&feature=related

http://savannahnow.com/effingham-now/2009-10-14/update-reward-offered-effingham-post-office-robbery

http://www2.nbc13.com/vtm/news/local/article/two_men_sentenced_in_armed_robbery_of_mccalla_post_office/32866/

http://www.infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/33198/

http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/43430482.html

How many would you like? I'm sure I could find many more but I didn't want to spend more than about 2 minutes on it. If my comments are relevant to the topic of discussion. I'm merely attempting to correct an incorrect assertion that Post Offices only fall victim to their own employees which is on its face FALSE. If we are to apply it to the discussion NONE of the issues discussed would deter either problem but it doesn't excuse spreading false info.

[One-Time]

Ill follow the law up until it endangers me and my own!

In Florida we can carry in our car and store as well, but not sure how it applied to Federal Property

[Claude Clay]

cite examples

and jon-in-wv sure has. for all that i read- WSJ, NYT and the local CT paper; and the news i hear on the radio all day, i am honestly amazed that i have not heard anything about these [and probably other] events. why these news sources are not using these events to further their cause of making all guns evil is not understood by me.

I've heard it said that you learn something new every day--
thank you for the enlightenment jon

spreading false info
i read as a mite strong. i was working off of information i was aware of. it is/was incomplete and thus my statement was inaccurate.
i am not trying to weasel out of this, just that i feel there is a marked difference between making an inaccurate [because of incomplete facts] statement and making a false one. and i was clear in saying "as it is presented to me"

this type of discussion is another thing i like about thr: there are many of us here and we all know and contribute creating a rather large and diverse pool of knowledge

[Acera]

That is so funny. Today I just picked up a new pistol from my FFL.

It was shipped from Kansas to Texas by USPS. Yeah, the regular post office guys, and it was known to them as a pistol. LOL, I even tracked it's entire progress.

[jon_in_wv]

i read as a mite strong. i was working off of information i was aware of. it is/was incomplete and thus my statement was inaccurate.
i am not trying to weasel out of this, just that i feel there is a marked difference between making an inaccurate [because of incomplete facts] statement and making a false one. and i was clear in saying "as it is presented to me"


Fair enough! You sir are a class act in my book.

I am of the opinion that a person can watch the news or the AP Wire as intently as they like but they will still find themselves ill informed. The news is at best ratings driven and at worst social engineering. Sadly, reporting the TRUTH has become a lost art. Look at the recent "balloon boy" reporting. Its been constant news for days now yet I'm sure its is NOT the most important thing going on in the world right now. Its the responsibility of gun owners like us to keep each other informed. The media certainly won't do it.

Back on topic, I've been trying to find a source about something else I read a while back. It was my understanding at the time that even a private strip mall, if it contains a Federal office like a Post Office, Recruiting office, or a Social Security office in the same building, was also considered under Federal jurisdiction and CCW would be prohibited there also. I could be way off on this one and I can't find a my source for that. Maybe someone can help me out with that as it pertains to our current subject.

[Zoogster]

Guys.

You're forgetting Rule #1 of CCW:

"Concealed means concealed"

How often do you get a vehicle search when you go to the post office???

Well the problem is people who take off thier guns to not bring them into the post office are in fact even more likely to be noticed with a gun than those who simply continue to wear them.

So if you are planning to break the law by having it in the vehicle, why would you increase the chances of getting caught during removal and not break the exact same law carrying on your person inside?

All it takes is a person or monitored camera to see you pulling out your gun to leave it in the vehicle. A call of "man with a gun" and you can bet there will be a vehicle search.
Post office parking lots are busy places where people only go in for a couple minutes and are then coming back out. So there is tons of parking lot activity and plenty of people to walk by your window at the wrong time.
Transferring the concealed firearm from person to vehicle is the most likely time to be seen.

Some of us don't have mailboxes in front of our houses, and have to go to the post office in order to pick up and send our mail.

Those who rely on using a PO box would certainly be effected the most.
The person going to and from work will be unable to to easily check thier mail if they keep a firearm on them or in thier vehicle.
Many small business owners use PO boxes for thier mail, and often travel with decent sums of cash to deposit in the bank during the same regular trip.
They will be unable to legally carry a firearm while regularly transporting large sums of cash and checking the mail.


I wonder how many felonies the average permit holder commits, even unknowingly on a regular basis. Based on the number here unaware leaving a gun in thier car while going into the post office was a felony, I would say at least a few.




I do not see the reason for the restriction.
A person intent on committing a criminal act is just going to bring a firearm inside anyways. I guess the next time someone "goes postal" they want to insure the person shooting everyone is the only armed person in the post office.

First off, wouldn't they be required to post signs stating that you can't bring a gun onto the property?
The federal government is not required to inform you of any of its laws by posting them on a sign. You are required to know all of the laws, regulations, and codes.
The fact that full time lawyers who study law for a living do not even know how many federal laws there is total, nevermind what they say does not change that.
Ignorance of the hundreds of thousands of laws is no excuse.
You are also required to know when they change, and become more or less restrictive and obey them.

For example:
'Revisiting the Explosive Growth of Federal Crimes'
http://www.heritage.org/Research/LegalIssues/lm26.cfm

So large is the present body of federal criminal law that there is no conveniently accessible, complete list of federal crimes.

More than 40% of the federal provisions enacted since the Civil War have been enacted since 1970

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse", as the saying goes. You are not ignorant of this law anymore anyways.

[jcwit]

Other than business reasons, name WHY you'd need to send a letter hand carried from San Diego to Vermont.


Actually there is a whole group of people here in the U.S.A. using the postal service to communiate. They are called the Amish, and they are scattered throughout the the U.S.

[matrem]

Name another organization in the world that can take a letter for .42
Dang it! I'm gettin ripped off again..I had to pay .44!

[NavyLCDR]

The federal government is not required to inform you of any of its laws by posting them on a sign. You are required to know all of the laws, regulations, and codes.

Zoogster, That statement is not true.

39 CFR 232.1(a):
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property. This section shall not apply to—

and, 18 USC 930(h), which does NOT apply to the post office, but to other Federal facilities:
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

[Zoogster]

Well it is true for most federal laws. In this case it appears I was incorrect in my assumption.

[NavyLCDR]

Well it is true for most federal laws.

Now that IS a true statement!

[akodo]

here's how I look at it.

The post office need not OWN the post office building, it may in fact rent.

If they are renting in a strip mall, they may have a few designated spots. If they are marked 'post office only' then its the same as if the postoffice building was all by itself on post office owned land with a post office owned parkinglot.

[stolivar]

Lets not get into this again. The court has already convicted someone for carrying a gun on postal property.

What you think you know or read is a moot point. This happened only last year.

It has already been decided on by the court system.



steve

[msb45]

Not to beat this to death but something that no one has ever articulated to me.

This section refers to another with an exception of hunting and all other legal purposes.

If you were a federal LEO and saw me on the street off of the postal property with a CC or OC firearm please quote to me the section I would be charged with before a magistrate. If you can't wouldn't that indicate that I was in a "lawful" state or purpose?

IF I was pursuing a lawful purpose off site what would my presence on a USPS site bear on on the lawfulness of my actions?

I'm not being argumentative or debating case law. I just think the decisions are BS to scare more people away as CC rates go up. I don't advocate breaking the law. I don't advocate testing the law. I do advocate avoiding the post office or using the web if you have to use USPS and schedule a pick-up. I also complain to my representatives that the USPS is a service to all and should be available to all.

[stolivar]

If you are mailing your gun through USPS. (that is other lawful purpose).

CCW's is not. Having your gun in the car in the fenced in area of the post office parking lot is not.

As long as it is not an enclosed parking lot you are ok.

The Judge ruled that he was in violation or Postal regs for having the gun in the car in the enclosed area parking lot for employees.

steve the mailman

[Iron Sight]

I predict the USPS as we know it will soon be gone.

They are not competing with other available shipping services.

[msb45]

Thanks Stolivar, understand what you're saying.

I just find it interesting that no one has ever been able to answer my question of what CFR I'd be charged with on the street.

That's because it's not illegal under local, state (PA), and US CFR. Also the fact that the exception says purposes not purpose, and in fact is extended to all facilities.

I'm not calling BS on anyone posting or de-valuing what is being said. Unless of course you're the judge in the case you mention or in charge of the USPS :neener:. I understand the difference between justice and the law. My view is that we have a law applied with no sense or justice.

I just think we need to call out these things to get people to think. Once they've thought about it we can work to change it. I believe if it's not illegal it is legal, other people want to see it as we need permission. I just hope one day freedom sees a better day.

[stolivar]

80% of the packages I deliver everyday come from UPS, FED-EX or DHL.

They drop ship at the Post Office everyday. This is all over america.

You pay them the big bucks and then they have us deliver a whole lot of their packages.

If you don't believe me ask a UPS driver.... Or even a FED-EX one. They hate it.


steve the mailman

[NavyLCDR]

Lets not get into this again. The court has already convicted someone for carrying a gun on postal property.

What you think you know or read is a moot point. This happened only last year.

It has already been decided on by the court system.



steve

I don't understand what your problem is, Steve. Zoogster said the Fed. government was not required to post signs. I simply showed, ummm, yes they are, and not only in the case of the post office, but in other areas as well. Zoogster said, well I'll be darn, they are. Why did you feel the need to even comment on that?

[stolivar]

I thought you were going to go on about the regs and all. Had you confused with somebody else......... Sorry again....


steve

[9mm+]

I think this one has been beaten to death, but I would like to give a shout-out to the USPS employees. I use postal services all of the time, as well as UPS and FedEx. We live in a free country (at least for now) and have the free will to choose what delivery service we want. There are some services that only the USPS can deliver and I have found the employees in our area Post Offices to be very professional and friendly.

Until the laws are changed, I would never advocate carrying open or concealed where prohibited. Jail is a lonely, terrible place.

[winston smith]

Funny. Last week I went into a hole-in-the-wall PO and the guy in front of me was carrying a revolver with the holster and end of the barrel quite obvious.

I guess that there at least, no one cares.

[NavyLCDR]

I thought you were going to go on about the regs and all. Had you confused with somebody else......... Sorry again....

You mean my alter ego? He only comes out Tuesdays that fall on odd numbered days and this is a Tuesday that is an even numbered day. Honest mistake! :D

[NightStalkerTX]

I don't understand what your problem is, Steve. Zoogster said the Fed. government was not required to post signs. I simply showed, ummm, yes they are, and not only in the case of the post office, but in other areas as well. Zoogster said, well I'll be darn, they are. Why did you feel the need to even comment on that?
While the statute requires the government to post the property, there is no penalty if they do not, and the statute does not offer the failure to properly post as a defense to prosecution for the accused. So, unfortunately, if the government fails to post, the citizen still must follow the rest of the law.

[jon_in_wv]

I just find it interesting that no one has ever been able to answer my question of what CFR I'd be charged with on the street.

I'm not sure what you mean by "one the street" but if you mean that you were caught with a firearm it would be Title 18 Section 930(a)

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility),
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than 1 year, or both.

Its on the sign at the Post Office. I don't believe people are charged under "CFR". The Code of Federal Regulations is more of a procedural code for Federal Agencies and the Executive branch not criminal law. USC Title 18 covers most of Federal Criminal Law.

Also, since the Post Office is a Federal Building PA law has NOTHING to do with it unless the statute defers to the state law and this one does not.

[2RCO]

Although PO carry is one of the oldest and most overdone topics in Gunboard history it seems that somehow many folks still don't realize the fact that a gun on PO Property is a felony. I park on the other side of the street when carrying. I own the building I park in front of so it makes it a bit easier.

[jon_in_wv]

You would THINK it was a pretty simple concept. Except the fact that Federal Crimes aren't really codified as felony or misdemeanor the way the states do. Generally any crime that is punishable of up to a year or more is considered a felony. Remember I said GENERALLY. There are common exceptions to that too.

[NavyLCDR]

I'm not sure what you mean by "one the street" but if you mean that you were caught with a firearm it would be Title 18 Section 930(a)

Except that 18 USC 930(a) does not apply to the post office.

Its on the sign at the Post Office.

Go look closer at the sign, it won't be 18 USC 930.

[gym]

If it's a public parking lot, good luck with that law.

[ChaoSS]

80% of the packages I deliver everyday come from UPS, FED-EX or DHL.

They drop ship at the Post Office everyday. This is all over america.

You pay them the big bucks and then they have us deliver a whole lot of their packages.

If you don't believe me ask a UPS driver.... Or even a FED-EX one. They hate it.


steve the mailman

What are you saying, the other shippers use the post office to transport between distribution centers or something?

[ChaoSS]

double post

[goatboy66]

What are you saying, the other shippers use the post office to transport between distribution centers or something?
Yup.

That's why all of the guys saying that they won't use the PO, or that they think the service there is cruddy, are hilarious.

The FedEx trucks roll up next to the UPS trucks at our facility, drop their loads, we ship 'em across the country, they pick them up and deliver 'em.

Oh.
And, by the way-
Do you think they want to send a truck all the way out to BFE for a single package?
When the PO already has a vehicle that goes out there every day?

That's another time that the commercial carriers hand it over to us and ask us nicely if we'd consider carrying it for them.

What you guys who dislike the PO have to remember-
UPS can go bankrupt.
*If they do, what happens to the portion of the economy that depends on their service?
FedEx can go bankrupt.
*If they do, what happens to the portion of the economy that depends on their service?

USPS can't go bankrupt.
As in, it can never be allowed to.
The USPS, barring destruction of the entire nation, is one of the few federal agencies that actually does productive work and, believe it or not, makes a profit.
Yes, that's right.
Until the major downturn in the economy, we not only made a profit, but we contributed to the general fund.

If the post office goes under, you can guarantee that the entire world economy has failed.

We carry 30% of the mail, IN THE WORLD.

Those of you who don't like the PO, or claim to have had bad experiences, or think that it's unnecessary, well, you just don't know what you're talking about.

[NotSoFast]

While UPS does not deliver letters, there are post office drop centers I can go to if I need to drop a letter. Everything else I ship goes FedEX.

[makarovnik]

I see cops in my P.O. all the time clearly carrying pistols.

What's up? Is it legal to carry a gun on USPS property or not or is it only legal if you're an officer?

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Yup.

That's why all of the guys saying that they won't use the PO, or that they think the service there is cruddy, are hilarious.

The FedEx trucks roll up next to the UPS trucks at our facility, drop their loads, we ship 'em across the country, they pick them up and deliver 'em.

Oh.
And, by the way-
Do you think they want to send a truck all the way out to BFE for a single package?
When the PO already has a vehicle that goes out there every day?

That's another time that the commercial carriers hand it over to us and ask us nicely if we'd consider carrying it for them.

What you guys who dislike the PO have to remember-
UPS can go bankrupt.
*If they do, what happens to the portion of the economy that depends on their service?
FedEx can go bankrupt.
*If they do, what happens to the portion of the economy that depends on their service?

USPS can't go bankrupt.
As in, it can never be allowed to.
The USPS, barring destruction of the entire nation, is one of the few federal agencies that actually does productive work and, believe it or not, makes a profit.
Yes, that's right.
Until the major downturn in the economy, we not only made a profit, but we contributed to the general fund.

If the post office goes under, you can guarantee that the entire world economy has failed.

We carry 30% of the mail, IN THE WORLD.

Those of you who don't like the PO, or claim to have had bad experiences, or think that it's unnecessary, well, you just don't know what you're talking about.
No, UPS and FedEx cannot go bankrupt because our president would step in where I don't think he should, and "fix it" for them.

[ChaoSS]

Yup.

That's why all of the guys saying that they won't use the PO, or that they think the service there is cruddy, are hilarious.

The FedEx trucks roll up next to the UPS trucks at our facility, drop their loads, we ship 'em across the country, they pick them up and deliver 'em.
Then what are all the big FedEx/UPS trucks for, do those only do short hauls?

Personally, I prefer the USPS anyway, it's cheaper.

[harmonic]

As more and more people become accustomed to e-commerce, fewer will even need the post office. It'll be defunct in a few years.

Modern newspapers are an appropriate analogy.


Edited to add: I am making it a point to use them less and less. I'll even pay more, if I have to, to ship via other carriers any packages I have.



.

[daniel1113]

Name another organization in the world that can take a letter for .42 and hand-carry it from San Diego to Vermont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Express_Statutes

Lysander Spooner was able to deliver mail better than the post office in the 1840s. I have no doubt that FedEx and UPS could also do it if there weren't federal laws against it.

[SharpsDressedMan]

Perhaps it's time for the NRA to sue the Post office for infringement of the right to BEAR arms. Publicly funded entities should not be setting the rules for the people who PAY them. They should be able to set rules for the people THEY pay, i.e. employees, but not regulate the citizenry. That is best left to the citizens.

[Dravur]

Wow.... Just Wow...

I have no idea what statute covers this.... Does not matter in the slightest. I know that if I were to carry into a PO, I would be arrested, and charged... Then I WOULD know the statute..

But, here's the rub. I don't want to be a test case. If you want to tilt at the windmill of the .gov, go for it. Let me know how prison chow is.

So, no, I have no idea what statute or law or small rubber ducky is the one that does not allow me to carry at the post office or their property, but I shant be taking the chance.

I would however, love to see someone else do it. Any volunteers?

[SharpsDressedMan]

I once hat the bright idea to have a thousand or so people in CARS that mysteriously "stall" descend on our state capital and lock up traffic at intersections during rush hour, as a last ditch protest before our state finally recognized and provided for concealed carry. The Columbus, Ohio police could not have towed the cars fast enough to accomplish any real response to such an act. I think a thousand post office driveways across the country obstructed simultaneously with "stalled cars" at the same time would get their attention. ATTN: THR moderators, last time I looked, advocating non-violent protests, like sit-ins (or "car"-ins), were perfectly within the law, and thus should not violate THR rules. Please correct me if I am wrong........

[Templar223]

USC provides exemption for firearms possessed lawfully.

John

ETA: And I leave it in the car about 90% of the time anyway in the open, public lot. Some people worry unnecessarily.

[jon_in_wv]

Quote:
Except that 18 USC 930(a) does not apply to the post office.

Go look closer at the sign, it won't be 18 USC 930.


Yes it does and yes it is. I don't know what is spurring you to spread misinformation but here...................

http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos158.pdf#search=%27possession%20of%20firearms%27

Here is where you can print out the EXACT sign that hangs in the local Post Offices in my area. If is from the USPS website. It seems the Post Office doesn't
agree with you.


Also, I really don't think the "other lawful purposes" is going to save you. Generally, that term refers to purposes that are expressly delineated by the law, not just a catch all for anything your are doing that happens to not break any other laws. I would personally advise anyone to observe the law and NOT carry in the Post Office. If you don't like that that find another way to conduct your business. If you are caught and they decide to press the issue you may spend your life savings trying to defend yourself in court. Its just no worth that. I just leave my weapon in the car and park off the grounds when I have to go in for something. It sucks and you shouldn't have to do that but it is what it is.

[NavyLCDR]

USC provides exemption for firearms possessed lawfully.

It is not only a USC that applies to the post office. It is also a CFR. The CFR does NOT contain an exemption for firearms possessed lawfully, it contains an exemption for "official purposes".

And I leave it in the car about 90% of the time anyway in the open, public lot. Some people worry unnecessarily.

If you aren't worried about, then just take it into the post office with you, it is no more legal left in your car on postal property than it is carried into the post office.

Dravur,
I think you might have your volunteer.

[NavyLCDR]

That is very interesting, jon_in_wv, thank you for providing that! I am mistaken and have been duly corrected. I suppose that according to 39 USC 410 that 18 USC 930 would apply because of the federal employee wording in it.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/39/usc_sec_39_00000410----000-.html

(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

(1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 [1] (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

(2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;

Thanks again!

[KBintheSLC]

How is this equal to "enforcement"? Stating a policy and enforcing it are two vastly different things. The USPS does absolutely nothing to actually ensure that no guns get into their facilities.

I will appreciate their efforts when/if they actually take some initiative... posting a sign does not equate initiative.

[Drachenstein]

Given a choice between USPS and UPS I'll take the Post Office. UPS practices total deniability no matter what. I'd use FEDEX if I could get the bank loan:eek:.

[JimKirk]

As more and more people become accustomed to e-commerce, fewer will even need the post office

Harmonic,
I guess that you can email packages now! Yea I know about Fedx and UPS, but did you not read what Steve stated about the Fedx and UPS packages. For the last 10 years or so the UPS truck backed up to our dock(USPS) about 12 noon each day with a truck load of packages for the USPS to deliver the next day! Just as the UPS truck pulled out the parking lot, the Fedx truck pulled in and unloaded a truck load. Sometimes the packages would be no more than a block away from the P.O. but we the PO delivered them not the FDx or UPS truck.
I carried a pistol in my truck(personal) to work with me for more than 20 years out of the 35 I worked there(USPS), but I always parked off the USPS property. Georgia just passed a law that states that you can carry in your vehical in any parking lot open to the public, not sure how this would apply to the PO public parking lot.

Jimmy K

[msb45]

That is my exact point. I'd love to see them arrest a cop in a PO. Won't happen. Law versus justice, selective enforcement and interpretation. They fully know that the officer is under a lawful purpose (not explicitly stated). The only difference between you and I is a lot of taxpayers who can finanace a lot of city lawyers.

And of course the concept that:
1) any crime in a PO would mean no response.
2) any letter carrier on the street is at serious risk of getting a "slow" response

A cop has a lawful purpose. In PA one reason for a CC license is "self-defense". The thought that the state is has given you a license for an unlawful purpose is absurd.

I don't have a beef with post office employees, most are just trying to do their job. I think the leadership is a bunch of less than stellar individuals.

I also know that USPS handles a lot of "last mile" of deliveries. But at least I can cut down on what they get to profit from.

As for tilting at windmills it can be a hobby. Just because someone feeds you a line there's some benefit in showing you see the truth. You don't have to break the law, just excercise you right to free speech. We need to get the message across that laws limit our rights not provide them and should be used sparingly. It's a mindset we need to change.

[Erik]

Everyone has read the law, right? Or are some of you elected officials? ;) Concealed means concealed? Note (a). Defend yourself at a postal facility resulting in the death of the attacker? Note (c). A state or local LEO? Note (d)(1). A fed LEO? Note (d)(2). Mailing a firearm? Note (d)(3). Most any other scenario? Note federal prison is not pleasant by design and per reality.

18 USC § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

(g) As used in this section:

(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.

(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

[harmonic]

did you not read what Steve stated

I don't care what Steve said. He's an anonymous name on an anonymous forum. The fact is that the internet is killing the post office and its demise is long overdue. It's a fat, bloated, governmental monopoly that is noted for inefficiency. Like so many archaic institutions created by the govt, they've outlived their usefulness.

Let private industry do it. They'll do it cheaper and better. That's the nature of capitalism, viz. to weed out the inefficient operators.

From here:

http://www.newsday.com/post-office-looks-at-changing-hundreds-of-offices-1.1345749

with people turning increasingly to the Internet to send messages and pay bills, financial losses are forcing the Postal Service to consider consolidating or closing hundreds of local facilities.


Here:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/08/03/national/w122815D71.DTL

The post office is facing a $7 billion loss this year despite a 2-cent rate increase. The agency has shed 150,000 workers since 2000, removed hundreds of mail collection boxes and taken other steps to save money.

Now the agency has sent a list of nearly 700 potential candidates for closing or consolidation to the independent Postal Regulatory Commission for review, and officials say more may be added.

[ChaoSS]

I'm not sure where all the hate for the post office is coming from.

USPS delivering for other delivery services aside, they tend to be able to get a package to a destination faster and for less money than FedEx, UPS and DHL. They aren't perfect, but they will never be defunct or useless.

[jon_in_wv]

Me either Chaoss. The USPS still handles BILLIONS of letters and packages yearly. Without that service a lot of people would be out of luck. In fact 99% of the internet shopping I do is delivered via the USPS. I have no faith that FedEx of UPS is going to take over those duties and somehow do it better. Its the same argument that people use with the Federal Prisons, that private industry can do it better and cheaper. In that case it really not true. There are some things the private sector can to better, I don't think the Post Office is one of them.

That is very interesting, jon_in_wv, thank you for providing that! I am mistaken and have been duly corrected. I suppose that according to 39 USC 410 that 18 USC 930 would apply because of the federal employee wording in it.


I have no idea what you are saying. Title 18 Section 930(a)(b) isn't referring to Federal Employees. Its seems to me it stands on its own and is pretty straight forward.

[Halo is for Kids]

FTW:endthread/

http://visitindy.com/library/2006Docs/Jun/7022786/UPS-Store_dt.jpg

[DammitBoy]

The last time I used the USPS to deliver a certified letter with a guaranteed delivery (which I paid extra for) the letter did not arrive as promised on the day it was promised.

You know what the USPS said? "Oops, sorry, better luck next time."

What kind of guarantee is that? No refund either.

My business goes with UPS, DHL, and FedEx.

[sheepdog]

"...h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be. "
__________________

...if it's not posted...there can be no conviction under (a) or (e)...read the law, don't make an issue where there is none...I've only seen the posting at one main post office...never at any branch...choose your battles...

[JimKirk]

certified letter with a guaranteed delivery
Unless it is a new service(within the last 8 months), there is no such thing as a guaranteed delivery on certified mail, only an attempt delivery on the day it arrives at the delivery unit, an attempt five days later, a notice on the 10th day and the return of your letter after the 15 day. If you mail something Express mail with a guaranteed delivery date, then you should be given a full refund. If the person is not home to sign for the certified then it will not be delivered. If you are due a refund get it.
Harm,

I am not anonymous and I have witnessed the UPS and Fedx truck almost everyday, Mon. thru Fri. for the last 10 years. The biggest killer of the P.O. is the fact that every podunk town of 15 people or more has a post office and the fact that the congressman that has voters in that town would not let such offices be closed. Do you see a Fedx or UPS office in those same town?
Another thing is the nonprofit mail that gets first class treatment instead of the service that they the non profits pay for. Those include churches, scouts and lots of other NP that are not NP like ACORN and the likes. Your first class letter pays for that NP stuff that has been a $$ maker for the PO in the past. As that group of mailers have almost quit mailing the PO has had to layoff workers and it will be closing that podunk office near you soon. I would be the first to admit that there is lots of waste in the PO, the problem is we have too many chiefs and not enough indians. I predict that the PO will be contracting out units just like the UPS and Fedx places like you see in the strip malls, which are private owned stores. Damm the PO if you like but I bet you will miss it when it is gone and that UPS or Fedx type service charges you $10 to deliver a letter! It will be just like the health care is headed!

Jimmy K
The Mailman for 35 years

[evan price]

I am sure that the world might end and a vehicle search is technically possible. I really do not care.

[DeathByCactus]

Oops, looks like I am a criminal now. Government should put me to death.

[MrToad]

makes no difference if usps owns or leases the facility..... “applies to anyone coming into a Post Office or a Postal facility. The regulation prohibiting the possession of firearms or other weapons applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service. .

Being a small towner, it sure would raise a lot of rukkus if they tried to enforce that in our 3 parking space post office lot during hunting season...lol

I can't believe this has 4 pages of replies in two days.

oops.....now its 5

[harmonic]

you will miss it when it is gone

Even though I resent the govt monopoly and restriction of free trade, as well as the subsequent gross inefficiency of the postal system, it will never be "gone." They are downsizing and closing offices, but they'll always have a postal system. Not everyone is using e-commerce. They still have to deliver mail to rural areas.

But as far as $10 a letter, that will never happen. If they were to privatize the industry, competition would keep the price low.

[9mm+]

I can't believe this has 4 pages of replies in two days.

oops.....now its 5

...and yet we're not even talking about firearms anymore...

[FROGO207]

It makes my head hurt to think how many times in the last 40 or so years that I have been engaged in an illegal act on a daily basis.:banghead: You never know what to do.:what:Its a good thing this is not vigorously enforced as we would have to close 1/3 the US for a prison area to contain all those convicted.:evil: I agree we should start a dialogue to bring about change of this odd law to something in line with today's needs.:scrutiny:

[stolivar]

daniel1113

"Lysander Spooner was able to deliver mail better than the post office in the 1840s. I have no doubt that FedEx and UPS could also do it if there weren't federal laws against it."

This is not 1840 (get with the times) UPS and Fed-EX don't want to deliver the mail. They only want the cream of the crop and the most profitable items to deliver.


"Publicly funded entities should not be setting the rules for the people who PAY them. "

DUH, we are not publicly funded. Have not been since 1970 (another one that needs to get with the times, and more educated at that):banghead:


steve

[Erik M]

I’m not sure why we are debating the acute problems the USPS is suffering. Personally I believe that since the USPS owns or leases the property that the building/facilities are located on they should be able to set the rules and regulations inside the property line. I’ve never worried about being gunned down at my local post office, so I don’t see it as an infringement of my rights to have to be disarmed when I cross thier property line. I have worked for two different federal agencies and they had similar rules when on their property. To each his own.

[stolivar]

harmonic


It's a fat, bloated, governmental monopoly that is noted for inefficiency. Like so many archaic institutions created by the govt, they've outlived their usefulness.

Let private industry do it. They'll do it cheaper and better. That's the nature of capitalism, viz. to weed out the inefficient operators.


There is no outside industry right now that could do the job USPS does. Where do you get inefficiency. Have you ever been in a mail processing plant or even in the back of the Post Office where the mail is sorted. It very efficient. The Post Office has been getting more efficient since the early 80's. We have Letter sorting machines that sort over 38,000 letters a hour. Flat sorting machines. Anybody else that would try to do it would cost you over 80 cents a letter. You would have no universal service. A letter would cost you 40 cents to mail in town and maybe a $1 to go from SF to NY. The post office gains about 9 million new addresses each year. We have also cut how many employees at the Post Office year after year.


with people turning increasingly to the Internet to send messages and pay bills, financial losses are forcing the Postal Service to consider consolidating or closing hundreds of local facilities.
The post office is facing a $7 billion loss this year despite a 2-cent rate increase. The agency has shed 150,000 workers since 2000, removed hundreds of mail collection boxes and taken other steps to save money.

Not true. The real killer is because the Federal Govt is making us pay 5.6 billion dollars to prefund retired health care. No other Federal Agency has to do that. You know why because they would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. (other agency's are funded by tax dollars).

Now the agency has sent a list of nearly 700 potential candidates for closing or consolidation to the independent Postal Regulatory Commission for review, and officials say more may be added.

All of this is caused by the Imploding economy and the past recession caused by greedy CEO's and Businesses. We would have broke even at the end of the year. The 7 billion in the hole is because of the 5.6 billion we gave back to the Govt and the recession.


steve

[stolivar]

[I] DammitBoy

The last time I used the USPS to deliver a certified letter with a guaranteed delivery (which I paid extra for) the letter did not arrive as promised on the day it was promised.

You know what the USPS said? "Oops, sorry, better luck next time."

What kind of guarantee is that? No refund either.

Unless you paid for Express mail next day delivery you do not get a guarantied delivery. If they do not deliver it on time, you can ask for your money back They must refund it. You probally sent it Certified with Priority Mail. That only gets you around 3 to 4 days (no guaranty)

steve the mailman for over 30 years

[DammitBoy]

I sent my letter express mail - it didn't make it.

[stolivar]

Then they screwed the pooch, and they owe you a refund.....


steve

[06]

I sent in a bid to the state DOT seven (7) days ahead and the town is only thirty miles away. It arrived on the eighth day-one day after the bid opening and I was the high bidder. Will never use the PO for important mail. , wc

[PhilipPeake]

Everyone has read the law, right? Or are some of you elected officials? ;) Concealed means concealed? Note (a). Defend yourself at a postal facility resulting in the death of the attacker? Note (c). A state or local LEO? Note (d)(1). A fed LEO? Note (d)(2). Mailing a firearm? Note (d)(3). Most any other scenario? Note federal prison is not pleasant by design and per reality.

18 USC § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

(g) As used in this section:

(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.

(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
That's a very interesting law, and one that people should be aware of.

However, you, like the majority of people in this thread obviously never even read the first paragraph of the link at the beginning of the first posting in this thread.

What the guy was convicted of was not breaking any Federal law. He was convicted of breaching a post office regulation. It was not in a public parking lot, it was in a closed and gated employee only parking lot.

The conviction is not a felony, it has a maximum of $50 fine and/or 30 days in prison.

Now, this does apply to anyone, not just employees, and its wrong, but its not the end of the world.

[razorback2003]

According to my reading, this postal 232.1 reg violation penalty is a $50 fine. I'm not going to sweat that in life. Even if it cost me $500, i'm not going to worry about it. It is not like you are going to go to prison over a postal reg deal and get a felony conviction. This is basically a fine and be done with it deal like a speeding ticket....similar to getting caught in a national park with a gun. The guy tried to get caught and go to court to set legal precedent....that was the whole purpose. I've never been to a post office that has metal detectors and pats people down when coming in. I conceal a handgun quite well and don't care to leave mine in my car and will not walk down the sidewalk. To each his own. I have better things to worry about. I've paid more money than that for traffic violations and still got plenty of sleep. My gun stays with me and is of no use a block away from me. This is nothing but a stupid rule to make the bed wetters feel better...nothing more. They can have their stupid rule and I'll carry my gun.

[Erik]

"What the guy was convicted of was not breaking any Federal law. He was convicted of breaching a post office regulation."

He was convicted of the administrative violation (39 CFR 232.1) associated with the criminal violation (18 USC 930) committed. To understand the one, one must understand the other. Basically, the legislative process produces the criminal law which leads to the creation of the codes by the federal agencies tasked with implementing the law. In the case of the USPS, 39 CFR 232.1 serves as the further regulate 18 USC 930; and to serve as a lesser charge to be used in most instances. But, don't assume the government will always choose to enforce the lesser charge. Federal prison has its fair share of tenants who weighed the risks of violating the CFR only to feel the weight of a USC conviction.

To understand more concerning CFRs, search the web. Seriously. Most folks don't understand them and given their impact in our lives, that is a shame.

As previously noted, the section of 39 CFR 232.1 violated:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
official purposes.

And the section's penalty:

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in
these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other
Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations
applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

That last sentence... That's the 18 USC 930 shoe to be dropped at the government's discretion.

[theotherwaldo]

Every time I hear about the Post Office gun bans I think about all of the guns I had to handle while I worked at the Post Office. I worked the loading and sorting docks in Anniston, Alabama. All of the guns that were sent to the Anniston Army Depot for destruction passed through our facility. Most were poorly packed, since nobody really cared what happened to these condemned weapons. It was common to have M-60 barrels poking through the sides of the boxes or .22 training rifles sliding out of the ends. We often had to shovel up the loose parts and pour them back in the boxes.

So, no guns on Post Office property? Really?

[daniel1113]

This is not 1840 (get with the times) UPS and Fed-EX don't want to deliver the mail. They only want the cream of the crop and the most profitable items to deliver.

Oh, excuse me. I wasn't aware that you were privy to the operational strategies of both UPS and FedEx. When you get back from the next board meeting, I'd be interested in hearing an update (it helps me plan my investments).

[Erik M]

Oh, excuse me. I wasn't aware that you were privy to the operational strategies of both UPS and FedEx. When you get back from the next board meeting, I'd be interested in hearing an update (it helps me plan my investments).
I don't think that it takes someone with an MBA or a Degree in Marketing to be able to obesrve that the 2 largest worldwide parcel companies might not be so interested in buying out a government run system that has been dying a slow death for decades.

To keep it gun related I know that my local UPS hub has no problem with a private citizen CC'ing a weapon on thier property. I have never witnessed a sign that said otherwise on the property. If it is against thier corporate policy then they are lacking in notifying the public about it in my town.

[9mm+]

This thread is still going on? How did we go from firearms to discussing the merits of UPS, FedEx, and the USPS?

[daniel1113]

I don't think that it takes someone with an MBA or a Degree in Marketing to be able to obesrve that the 2 largest worldwide parcel companies might not be so interested in buying out a government run system that has been dying a slow death for decades.

Who said anything about buying out USPS?

[MM60]

I read every single post on a thread before I post my own response. I have read many, many posts all the way through, including all 119+ posts in this particular thread.

After reading all of your responses, I think that this website should change it's name from "The High Road" to "The High Horse", because that is what the vast majority of the members of this forum are on. There is very little patriotism evident on this website. I would say that a good 90 to 95% of the posts here reflect a completely legalistic viewpoint; that the rules set for us by the government are the absolute law of the land and that we must abide by whatever rediculous regulations the politicians decree no matter how detrimental they are to our wellbeing.

You legalists and meatheads contribute a large amount of momentum to the crumbling of the United States. You are dedicated to complying with all of the government's un-Constitutional statutes, and you tear apart anybody who stands up for the preservation and practice of individual liberty. Many of you are on a power trip - especially you who work in "law" enforcement and other positions of authority. You actually believe that you are outstanding upright citizens because you follow all the rules, and because you attempt to force others to do what some buerocrats impose upon us as being "proper" through their controlled media. You all need to get off your high horses and accumulate some real understanding of the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, and what it means to live in a free society. Freedom is fading fast. If you don't change your ways, you will seal your fates as the citizenry (or slavery) of a new 1930's-Germany nightmare.

[stolivar]

Daniel1113

Oh, excuse me. I wasn't aware that you were privy to the operational strategies of both UPS and FedEx. When you get back from the next board meeting, I'd be interested in hearing an update (it helps me plan my investments).
__________________

I have many a friend and relatives that work for UPS and FED-EX. They all say that their companies do not want to deliver the mail...... They only want what is the cream of the crop and leave the rest. Most of these guys have worked for UPS and Fed-EX as long as I have been for USPS... They don't want my job and I don't want theirs.

Second get off your high horse and arrogant and derisive tone. The Few of us that have been trying to give you some insights to the working of the Post Office are kind of tired of listening to the dribble that a few on here have been spouting.

You don't walk up on a Carpenter or a fireman and tell them how to do their job or even imply that you know what is going on in the inner workings of their craft or business when they have been doing the job for over 30 years and you haven't even been an apprentice at any of their jobs.


Steve the mailman

[razorback2003]

We need more people like you around. I am not about to let some bed wetter 'rule' from keep me from keeping myself safe. A lot of folks are like me...I just keep my mouth shut when I go to the post office...J frame snub 38 in my pocket...or say a little 380...not hurting anyone...and those fed employees can post all the little 50 dollar fines all they want on the walls...GOOD FOR THEM! That's about like getting a parking meter ticket and sure cheaper than speeding tickets...and you know what...those never ruined my days either....but no one has ever known about my 38 in my pocket and never will....it stays hidden until I need it. Only me and God know. I try to stay legal...but there comes a time when a silly misdemeanor 'rule'/fine keeps me from protecting myself...well I'll keep my mouth shut and go about my business and protect myself...that's the way I've always been and the way I'll always be. Signs don't mean a lot to me....until the day comes that people start getting frisked to go into every building, mall, church, restaurant, movie theater, pro baseball game....their sign, policy, or feelings doesn't mean squat to me becauuse it's my responsibility to take care of me and my family...and mine alone..not anyone else's...that's the American way.

[MM60]

Thanks Razorback2003! Absolutely, if everybody concerns themselves with following the government's rules rather than practicing their God-given rights as declared in the U.S. Constitution, then it's only a matter of time before we are total slaves to their oligarchy.

-In the minds of the oligarchs, the United States is already conquered. They now own it and are implementing a plan for total control over every aspect of our lives.
-In the minds of the legalists, this is still a free country and you are at liberty to do as you please as long as it doesn't conflict with any of the oligarchs' 9,000 to 12,000 laws (which means that this is not really a free country anymore at all, but just pretend that it is - in order to avoid any uncomfortable feelings - at all cost).
-In the minds of true American patriots, this is a free country where the government must have minimal power over our lives, where we citizens possess inherent God-given rights, including the right to forcefully defend our liberty from all foreign and domestic enemies, and where freedom will prevail until every last one of us is captured or killed.

I believe that, one day soon, these differing viewpoints are going to be the cause of some serious chaos like this nation has not seen in a long time. Hopefully, some of the legalists will wake up before it's too late. Don't play the oligarchs' game; forget about their "rules" and live by our founding documents - the true law of the land.

"Thou shalt, in thy Warrior's Mind and Soul, always remember My ultimate and final Commandment: There Are No Rules - Thou Shalt Win at All Cost." ~Richard Marcinko

[ChaoSS]

We need more people like you around. I am not about to let some bed wetter 'rule' from keep me from keeping myself safe. A lot of folks are like me...I just keep my mouth shut when I go to the post office...J frame snub 38 in my pocket...or say a little 380...not hurting anyone...and those fed employees can post all the little 50 dollar fines all they want on the walls...GOOD FOR THEM! That's about like getting a parking meter ticket and sure cheaper than speeding tickets...and you know what...those never ruined my days either....but no one has ever known about my 38 in my pocket and never will....it stays hidden until I need it. Only me and God know. I try to stay legal...but there comes a time when a silly misdemeanor 'rule'/fine keeps me from protecting myself...well I'll keep my mouth shut and go about my business and protect myself...that's the way I've always been and the way I'll always be. Signs don't mean a lot to me....until the day comes that people start getting frisked to go into every building, mall, church, restaurant, movie theater, pro baseball game....their sign, policy, or feelings doesn't mean squat to me becauuse it's my responsibility to take care of me and my family...and mine alone..not anyone else's...that's the American way.

You're just a genius, aren't you? You don't follow the rules because you'll never get caught, but let's just go ahead and post about it on a public internet forum.:rolleyes:

[model of 1905]

This thread makes me sleepy. Yawn.