[warddc]

....actually the Beretta Stampede single action that is in this months Guns And Ammo mag. It seems that Beretta stampede does not include the mandatory ballistic fingerprinted 2 spent cases that NY requires. This is kinda funny since berettausa is located in Akokeek MD (another state that requires the 2 fired casings.) What a crock. Like you would leave revolver brass at a crime scene anyway. Doh!

d.

[Nightcrawler]

What about the Ruger single actions? Does Ruger include the fired brass? You could get yourself a Vaquero.

[George Hill]

I'd find a private sale out of state.

http://www.madogre.com/Political%20Items/Declaration_of_civil_disobedience.htm

[Brat7748]

Try finding an FFL who will take it to the State Police to fire and collect the spent rounds.

[foghornl]

My Vaquero came with 1 fired case, but I don't know what happened to it... ? ? ? ? ? ?

[Sunray]

I'm curious. Does this 2 spent casings rule say they must come out of the firearm you're registering? Does it say they must be intact? I'm thinking of two flattened cases. Put 'em under a 5 pound sledge and mail 'em in.

[warddc]

NY updated its ballistic fingerprinting rules to not allow the state police to perform the fingerprinting. The cases must be supplied by the manufacturer. The ffl selling the gun must send one to the state police and send the other to the FBI. This effectively eliminates guns sales from manufacturers that won't supply 2 cases.

d.

[gun-fucious]

can't even buy them in Maryland
cause theres no spent case and no internal lock

very few handguns are for sale in MD right now

[Brat7748]

Hmmm well the following is from the New York State Rifle and pistol association page on state law. I see only 1 case required...but of course that does not mean it hasn't changed:


On and after March 1, 2001, any manufacturer that ships, transports or delivers a handgun to a person or licensed handgun dealer in New York shall include in the container with such handgun a separate sealed container that encloses: (a) a shell casing of a bullet or projectile discharged from such handgun; and (b) any additional information that identifies such handgun and shell casing as required by New York state police rules and regulations. A gunsmith or dealer in handguns licensed in New York shall, within ten days of the receipt of any handgun from a manufacturer that fails to comply with the provisions of this requirement shall either (a) return such handgun to such manufacturer, or (b) notify the New York state police of such noncompliance and thereafter obtain a substitute sealed container through participation in a program operated by the state police. On and after March 1, 2001, a gunsmith or dealer in handguns licensed in New York shall, within ten days of delivering to any person a pistol or revolver received by such gunsmith or dealer in handguns on or after such date, forward to the division of state police, along with the original transaction report, the sealed container enclosing the shell casing from such handgun either (a) received from the manufacturer, or (b) obtained through participation in the program operated by the division of state police. These provisions only apply to new handguns received from a manufacturer on or after March 1, 2001. They shall not apply to any handgun possessed by a dealer prior to that date nor to any handgun possessed prior to that date by any person with a New York pistol license, and shall not apply to any handgun received by a dealer specifically for delivery or sale outside New York. Upon receipt of the sealed container, the division of state police shall cause to be entered in an automated electronic databank pertinent data and other ballistic information relevant to identification of the shell casing and to the handgun from which it was discharged. All firearm exhibitors must conduct a national instant criminal background check prior to all firearm sales or transfers, including sales or transfers of rifles or shotguns at a gun show. A licensee who moves his residence to another licensing jurisdiction within the state may, upon request, have his license records transferred to the jurisdiction of his new residence. Failure to request transfer of the license records may result in an inability to obtain amendments, and possible revocation of the license. To obtain the amendment, the applicant must present his license to the licensing officer in the city or county where such license was issued or where officially transferred.

[Brat7748]

By the way the URL link to the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association is:

http://www.nysrpa.org

State laws are listed under other items of interest. You might want to contact them and ask about your problem, that link in under the All about us section it is: nysrpa@albany.net If the rules have changed or there is a workaround they should be able to get you the facts.

[Graystar]

warddc,

The law you are referring to is the CoBIS law. This law is found in Title 9 section 493 of the NYCRR (New York Codes, Rules, and Regulations.) Here is the link to the information:

http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/Firearms/Cobis/Cobisindex.html

According to the manufacturers’ FAQ, manufacturers are only required to supply one case, although two would be preferable.

New York State does not send a case to the FBI. It also cannot require dealers to send a case to the FBI. This is a state operated system. The FBI is a federal department. Also, there is no such federal requirement.

If the gun you purchased doesn’t have the required spent case, the dealer must take the gun to a CoBIS center to be fired. In this case, the dealer is required to supply two cartridges for firing.

What you want is to have the gun delivered to a NY dealer that is very close to one of the CoBIS centers. The dealer will get the gun CoBISed and charge you a fee for doing so. It’s a pain in the butt, but you’ll get your gun.


Another thing to do is to buy the gun from an FFL in another state, or have the gun shipped to an FFL in another state, and then shipped to NY. Claim that the gun is used or that it's yours and you're just getting it back. The receipt from the NY dealer will only show a transfer fee.

[4v50 Gary]

Just like Caliph-ornia-bad. We don't have crime here anymore because our guns are consumer safe, EPA, Osha approved and tested by UL (Undertaker's Lavatory).

[tiberius]

This is the first I ever heard of such a thing. Am I supposed to believe that if the po po find brass at the scene of a crime that they actually compare it to all of the same caliber samples they have on file?????

I'm not an optics expert, but I do have a MSCSE so I'm not a complete idiot about computer stuff....an effective digitized database seems unrealistic as well.

[Brat7748]

tiberius,
Yep thats what they do, both NY and MD have this program. The fact that neither state has yet to solve crime 1 with hasn't stoped them from spending Millions of $.

[Standing Wolf]

I think you need a new state. Worked for me.

[tiberius]

tiberius,
Yep thats what they do, both NY and MD have this program. The fact that neither state has yet to solve crime 1 with hasn't stoped them from spending Millions of $.
Who do they think they're kidding? It may be useful if they find some 44-40 WCF, or 9X21 on the scene........but there is NO WAY they can actually campare it effectively to all the 9mm parabellums in the state. This "feel good" legislation really gets me worked up. :banghead:

[Graystar]

This is the first I ever heard of such a thing. Am I supposed to believe that if the po po find brass at the scene of a crime that they actually compare it to all of the same caliber samples they have on file????? Yes, that is exactly what they do. It's called the Ballistic Imaging System and the NYPD has used it since 1995. They image shells from crime scenes and match them to guns collected from criminals. they supposedly have had something like 600 hits, although I don't know if that has translated to any convictions based on this particular evidence.

The CoBIS system is a state system implemented in 2001 to record cases of all new guns sold. It doesn't apply to used guns. So far CoBIS hasn't had a single match.

[Brat7748]

NH is in my future Standing Wolf.

Actually it is they started this program in early 2001 (at least that is when it became law) on NEW HANDGUNS ONLY. Of course revolvers don't leave cases and you could pick up ejected cases from an auto, or you could change your firing pin/ejector and cahnge the marks on the you cases. Oh maybe someday after they spend 10's of millions they will catch some dumb BG. I'm sure the state police don't mind building their empire a little bigger here in the empire state. They will take the cash, set up a new department, hire more people, buy more computers, actually it's all part of the states economic plan to keep unempoyment down and NY taxes the higest in the country... you see our pols don't want to be in the empire state (thats our state nickname) because being an empire is not PC anymore, so they want to trash the place and make it more like a 3rd world state.

[MeekandMild]

http://www.webref.org/psychology/m/magical_thinking.htm

[gun-fucious]

MARYLAND STATE POLICE REPORT CONFIRMS:
BALLISTIC FINGERPRINTING IS EXPENSIVE FAILURE


(October 27, 2003) With the delayed release of its report to legislature, MSP confirms what critics of Maryland's unique ballistic fingerprinting law have observed all along: the law is an expensive failure. After spending $2 million to establish the program, taxpayers now pick up the tab for half a million dollars in annual operating expenses (going into its fifth year.) Despite this outlay of nearly $5 million tax dollars, police have yet to nab a criminal based on the program's use.

MSP's report describes only four matches made by their software - in all cases, of guns they had already confiscated. The program's ostensible goal was to suggest a lead to investigators who collect shell cases taken as evidence from a crime scene. That has yet to happen. Moreover, the only way they could get even four matches after the fact was to have the gun already in their possession for extensive testing.

Proponents enacted their mandate for ballistic fingerprinting with the promise of "immediate impact", yet once its technical flaws became known, officials started soft peddling expectations in order to maintain funding. The report parrots Parris Glendening's spin, that compares the program to MSP's state DNA database - another expensive low-yield program - which "needs time to develop before it bears fruit." This analogy ignores the fact that DNA evidence doesn't change, whereas a firearm's signature on evidence changes with each pull of the trigger.

By calling for research in order to buy time, MSP's report confirms another point made by gun rights advocates: this law was enacted without any scientific basis for believing it could work in the first place. The law's only effect is to deny citizens high quality products made by companies that don't survive in our state's predatory regulatory environment.

The Ehrlich administration should fight to repeal this law in favor of public safety programs that work. Taxpayers deserve the best bang for our public safety buck.

http://www.direct-action.org/

here is a good article on the IBIS fingerprinting system:
http://popularmechanics.com/science/law_enforcement/2001/10/firearms_fingerprints/print.phtml

[tyme]

Never fear - if criminals aren't being caught it's because the guns being used in crimes aren't covered by the law, not because the system really doesn't help catch criminals.

Next stop: a federal law with mandatory test firings at a designated range will commence forthwith. Citizen, do not be afraid. Your test firing date and location will be announced on national TV based on your SSN. Any subversive communication discussing this plan in a negative manner will result in:
http://www.rickross.com/graphics/waco_burning.jpg

Have a nice day. Don't forget to pay your taxes.

[BluesBear]

Wow , let's hope some large dealer doesn't give you the wrong box with your new handgun purchase.

If they can confuse BABIES in a hospital, keeping track of teeny tiny fired casings should be a walk in the park. :rolleyes:

Hmmm, I just thought of something.

The frame is considered to be the firearm according to F-troop. If you buy a frame for a 1911 style pistol is must go through a FFL since it is considered a firearm.
Does this mean that our bretheren in NY can't buy a Caspian or Essex frame since there is nothing to fire a cartridge from?

What if you buy a Colt Government and decide to replace the MIM extractor, custom tune the ejector (thereby changing the tool marks), install a new firing pin and install a Bar-So match barrel?
That would seriously alter the "fingerprint". Heaven forbid if you were to polish the toolmarks from the breechface to allow smoother feeding.

Can't those political goobers think of a more creative way to waste the taxpayers money? :cuss:

[Graystar]

The frame is considered to be the firearm according to F-troop. If you buy a frame for a 1911 style pistol is must go through a FFL since it is considered a firearm. That is correct. You can only buy firearms that are listed in a database of firearms. If your gun is not in the database, it can be entered in at the time of inspection (yes, your new gun purchase must be inspected by the police, and it took the idiots 3 hours to get my Rock River Arms 1911 into the database.)

The firearms in the database have caliber's associated with them. This may seem obvious, but in NY it means that you cannot change the caliber of the gun. No .22 conversions or things like that. You can only own ammo for the guns (and calibers) on your license.

You really have to throw away your notions of owning guns when you move to New York. In New York, you're in possession of a highly controlled and regulated item. None of the ideas you are familiar with apply.

[tiberius]

You really have to throw away your notions of owning guns when you move to New York. In New York, you're in possession of a highly controlled and regulated item. None of the ideas you are familiar with apply.


Yeah, but at least it keeps guns out of the hands of criminals.

[obiwan1]

What are YOU going to do about it?:mad:

[gun-fucious]

i was thinking of running a buff and polish session in Annapolis this session

Ya know that scene in GB&U (www.geocities.com/ug97057/ images/goodbadugly.jpg) when Tuco builds a custom revolver in the store?

fingerprint that

[tcsd1236]

As has been said, the law only requires that the dealer take the weapon to the CoBIS center to have it test fired, and it only applies to NEW guns; used guns, even those being brought into the state, are exempt. Comments from some of you about NY being a non-gun owning state are inaccurate, and show just how little you know about the state of gun ownership in this state.
BTW, I am a NY FFL, and I charge an additional $15 (pretty cheap, I think, given the 3 hour round trip involved) on top of the transfer fee for each handgun I have to take in for the brass submission.....

[Graystar]

I charge an additional $15 Take it from someone who almost had to pay 45-60 bucks to get this done...that's a good deal (if you live in the area.)

tcsd1236, I have a couple questions for you. As a New York dealer, does NYS make you run a NICS check for every transfer, even if the transferee has a license? Also, does NYS prevent you from receiving a gun from a non-FFL? (As you know, federal law forgoes the NICS check for licensed individuals, and allows the transfer. I'm wondering if NYS has addition requirements on dealers.)

I ask because two different dealers told me that this was the case in NY.

I don't know about the NICS check, but on the other issue I think that NY requires the dealer to list the authority under which the sender possessed the firearm, and non-licensees in other states don't have authority in NY's eyes. At least, that's my guess. Can you clarify? Thanks a lot!

[warddc]

tcsd1236,

The FFL I use in Big Flats, NY told me that ANY NEW gun that comes into NY MUST come thru an FFL and must have fired cases. So that rules out buying it from another dealer out of state. He also said that Batavia NY was the closest coBis place and that it is not cost effective to shut down his business for an afternoon just to go have the gun fingerprinted at the designated appointment time.

d.

[Brat7748]

Graystar since you are in NYC you may have some additional regs that we don't upstate. NY has some pretty dumb laws, for example I have an unrestricted CCW so I am an investigated, fingerprinted, trusted good guy all over the state EXCEPT NYC, where it would be illegal for me to carry.

[gun-fucious]

in Maryland there was a grace period wherein a dealer could
take a gun to be printed at the state police

that grace is over and if the gun does not ship with a casing
there is now no method for getting a casing

[Graystar]

I say have it shipped to tcsd1236, let him CoBIS it for you, then mail it to your local dealer. The gun will now have a Certificate of Compliance, and will be okay to transfer to you. It's a lot to go through, but you CAN get this gun. Just have to make the effort.

I just find it hard to believe that Beretta doesn't supply a case.

The whole thing is ridiculous. Maybe that's what Beretta thinks. Not like NY is a big market anyways.

[Graystar]

Graystar since you are in NYC you may have some additional regs that we don't upstate. NY has some pretty dumb laws, for example I have an unrestricted CCW so I am an investigated, fingerprinted, trusted good guy all over the state EXCEPT NYC, where it would be illegal for me to carry. Yeah, I know. Ridiculous. However, of the dealers that gave me the info, one was in NYC and the other was in Rockland County, which is why I think it could be a statewide thing.

[tcsd1236]

Sorry for the delay; being deployed, I wasn't able to check the responses and get on-line as often as I might have liked. I have changed the email for my profile, so I have solved that problem anyway....
To answer the questions...no, I don't need to run a check on permit holders. I need to be able to show they were exempt, so I keep a xerox copy of the front of the permit and attach it to the transaction paperwork.
The only "NY" requirement other than the permit and the casing law is that I must provide a gun lock of very a very specific type with every transaction, regardless of new or old gun. I went with the Master lock and tacked on an additional five bucks to each transaction to cover the cost of the lock.

As for transfers from non-FFLs...if you mean from out of state, then yes, they insist that all out of state shipments must come from FFL's, in spite of the Federal law saying otherwise . When I press them to show me where this is written in state law, they can't come up with it....their excuse is that the way the state law is written, any transaction not involving an FFL at the sending end could involve an illegal transaction because the receiving FFL has no idea if the weapon being received is a crime gun. Thats their thinking, anyway....I generally ask the sender to go through an FFL to keep the NYSP who run the NY permit system off my back, or at least a copy of the senders CCW. I figure that with at least THAT, I am covered as to the alwfulness of the sender.

Warddc: Yes, its any new gun. I thought I specified that. Most dealers are having their handguns done in batches..one trip and doing several guns per trip. My volume doesn't allow for that, and its a 3 hour round trip for me..so anyway you look at it, its a bargain for the purchaser.

[Graystar]

Thanks for the info. Better late than never :)