Columbia University Libertarians would like to put on a Machine gun Shoot/BBQ


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AJAX22
October 20, 2009, 11:22 PM
Hi all,

I just got back from a meeting with the Columbia University Libertarians and they were very supportive of putting on a machine gun shoot-n-q to get Columbia/NYU students active on the RKBA.

Essentially it would be a road trip to a nearby free state (unless there is a way to do it in new york or NYC but that is highly doubtful) where we would have the opportunity to teach gun safety to some of the top students at one of the most liberal schools in the country. then there would be some range time under VERY close supervision, followed by a BBQ and we'd probably get some pro RKBA speakers lined up to speak after the dinner.

And in the process there would be GREAT PR opportunities for everyone involved.

We'll probably be needing to find an 07FFL/02SOT or private gun owner/club who is located close to NYC (anywhere within 4 hours or so is workable) and we'll be trying to get together a lot of sponsorship (ammo isn't cheap).

The NYU republicans seemed interested in participating and its possible that some other NYC based school organizations may be looking to get involved.

If anyone here knows of any manufacturers/clubs/organizations who we can approach to try to get this off the ground please let me know.

this will likely be very manpower intensive as it is vital that basic firearms instruction be provided as well as a high level of supervision, so if anyone knows of organizations who may be willing to provide supervision as well as firearms safety instruction that would be ideal.

It is very likely that this will attract a huge amount of backlash from both the university and politicians (Bloomberg et all) but that just means national media attention and more to offer sponsors.

Everything is still just up in the air, but based on the reception the idea received it could be a hugely successful event.... and if the university tries to block it from happening, the first amendment issues and positive press that would result from the institution suppressing free speech could be amazing.

This is also a great way to get some of the more politically active, freedom minded individuals who are active in NYC focused on the RKBA....

So.... suggestions? comments? criticisms?

any input/help would be greatly appreciated.

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Tim the student
October 21, 2009, 12:08 AM
Sounds great!

I'd have to think on some things as far as concerns and/or suggestions.

lomalinda
October 21, 2009, 02:18 AM
Ajax,

Sounds like a great idea. My understanding of the NYS gun laws is that full auto is illegal, much like it is back here our our lovely home state. However, FA is legal in CT--just not select fire. Perhaps you could find a range over there to use for this purpose?

gyvel
October 21, 2009, 03:23 AM
And I should point out that transport of any NFA weapon into another state, whether temporary or not, requires a letter of approval from our friends at BATF beforehand.

bdickens
October 21, 2009, 06:34 AM
They allow Libertarians at Columbia?

jn1965
October 21, 2009, 07:08 AM
At first I thought he wrote Librarians!

I worked at CU for 7 years back in the 1980's and it was crazy back then. We actually had a wymyn student come into our office to see if we had any objectionable material. (the poster of Nikki Knokkers went over big time)

I applaud this effort.

I can check with the club in New Paltz to see if they would not mind hosting.

No FA, but would we really want people who have never SEEN a gun up close firing FA?
Visions of the video of the girl with the AK-47 firing wildly come to mind...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3a7_1255150590

I am thinking bolt actions for them :D

Yosemite Sam
October 21, 2009, 08:18 AM
Yeah I'd be kind of worried about people shooting full-auto from unsupported positions. Maybe FA with tripods from seated position. Or only have the n00bs shoot semi-auto and have experienced shooters demonstrate FA.

Just trying to avoid the possibility of an "incident" reinforcing anti-gunners' views. "See I told you so" sorta thing.

Would this event occur in the spring?

AJAX22
October 21, 2009, 08:26 AM
Thanks for the input so far guys,

I just want to be very clear on one point, this is NOT going to take place in NYC... so no worries on that front (thanks to those who have expressed concern).

As far as crossing state lines with NFA items, that was one of the reasons for trying to involve an 07FFL/02SOT as they have considerable freedom with such things (it also would be nice to shoot post sample guns to save the wear on privately held FA firearms)

As far as the appropriateness of NFA items for this shoot, I had similar reservations when we were conceiving this project. However the politically controversial nature of them could be extremely useful in trying to maximize the exposure of the event and ensuring it goes off successfully.

By having NFA items present it serves to state in no uncertain terms that this is NOT about hunting.

It also increases the chance of national media coverage, as well as increasing the chance of a backlash against the project from both the school and activist groups.

With a high enough level of supervision it should be manageable, and participation would be completely revocable at the discretion of the supervisory staff.

Even if FA use was limited to a few short bursts from a 1919A4 it would increase the success of the project and make it much more marketable.

AJAX22
October 21, 2009, 08:29 AM
Yes this would have to be a spring event... probably a couple weeks before finals.

There is no way it could be organized/funded in time for winter...

docjonsn
October 21, 2009, 10:51 AM
They allow Libertarians at Columbia?
yes they do

Pete

(Columbia University,Teachers collage 1985 to 1989, English Lit.)

hso
October 21, 2009, 11:07 AM
You may want to contact the Westfield Sportsman's Club in Mass and talk to them about how to set this up.

I also don't think that FA is a good idea for first time shooters since the cost is high and learning curve is a little steeper than just introducing them to shooting. OTOH, if you have other shooting trips to local ranges planned you could make the FA shoot to be the big end of year blast.

kingpin008
October 21, 2009, 11:33 AM
I'm still wondering if FA is the way to go here. I can see a bunch of fence-sitting college students having a day at the range shooting machine guns, then still coming away thinking "well that was fun, but who really needs one of those anyway?"

IMHO, it'd be much better to set up a suppressor shoot. The "cool factor" is already there, and it'd be much easier to explain the "benefits" of a suppressor (helps new shooters not be frightened, less noise pollution, etc) than a FA gun.

Other than that, I think you've got a great idea, and wish you luck!

rondog
October 21, 2009, 11:38 AM
The first word that comes to my mind is, INSURANCE. What will you need, and can you afford it?

AJAX22
October 21, 2009, 01:58 PM
I'm still wondering if FA is the way to go here. I can see a bunch of fence-sitting college students having a day at the range shooting machine guns, then still coming away thinking "well that was fun, but who really needs one of those anyway?"

IMHO, it'd be much better to set up a suppressor shoot. The "cool factor" is already there, and it'd be much easier to explain the "benefits" of a suppressor (helps new shooters not be frightened, less noise pollution, etc) than a FA gun.

Other than that, I think you've got a great idea, and wish you luck!

With FA we completely eliminate any issues with 'hunting' or 'collecting' or 'sporting purposes'....

The dialogue becomes purely about the RIGHT to keep and bear arms... It becomes a pure expression of freedom, unencumbered by any 'well this one is ok, but that one is not, and this one looks like it is sporting, and that one is scary'

IMHO the de-mystification of machine guns/suppressors etc will go a long way to winning them over to our side.

Kind of how when a shotgun doesnt wipe out an entire landscape with one blast, people stop being so awed and terrified of them.

I want participants to come away from this having had fun, but being a little dissapointed and let down that machine guns are not the magical items they have been portrayed as in the media/pop culture.

Once you can get people to accept that a machine gun is 'no big deal', you've won all the arguments... you don't have to fight for handguns, you don't have to fight for shotguns, you don't have to fight for 'sniper rifles', you don't have to fight for 'saturday night specials' and you definitely don't have to fight for 'assault weapons'...

Machine gun owners tend to get thrown under the bus by many firearms enthusiasts.. but that is a very unproductive tactic... If we could simply illustrate that there is nothing evil about NFA items, then we wouldn't have to worry as much about creeping incramentalism.

OurSafeHome.net
October 21, 2009, 02:15 PM
With FA we completely eliminate any issues with 'hunting' or 'collecting' or 'sporting purposes'...

I like your line of reasoning.

I had the privilege of supervising Dr. Ron Paul (R-TX) and his staff during a sub-machine gun "fam-fire" exercise back in the 1990's.

I got him to autograph my Libertarian party voter's registration card.

rondog
October 21, 2009, 02:29 PM
Just my opinion, but I think you might be better off doing a field trip as a group to an organized machinegun shoot put on by someone else. That way, your group would avoid the expenses and hassles of trying to organize one yourselves. Each person could just rent the gun(s) they want to shoot. That's expensive enough, and college kids aren't usually made of money. FA's are fun allright, but man, they cost a lot to feed.

hnk45acp
October 21, 2009, 04:38 PM
Try PA, it's closer and a Class III state, IIRC Targetmaster is about 2 hours from NYC and they offer full auto rentals. I'd be willing to help any way I can. Also the folks down at the West Side pistol and Rifle range on 20 west 20th st can possibly give you some advice

vancel
October 21, 2009, 07:26 PM
I've been poking around your website to do some research for a book and came on this thread. I'm curious: Do you guys think it should be legal for private individuals to own grenade launchers, bazookas, stinger missiles, etc.? If so, how about mortars, howitzers, field artillery, etc.? ICBMs? Nuclear warheads? As far as I know, the word 'arms' (as in the Constitution, a right to keep and bear) simply means weapons. I'm wondering where you draw the line and why.

Please note this might seem provocative, but I'm not 'anti-gun'. I own a .22 rifle, shoot for sport, and occasionally fire handguns at a range. But I am puzzled by the notion of promoting private ownership of a weapon that doesn't seem to have any sport purpose.

rm23
October 21, 2009, 07:57 PM
Vancel:

How about you start your own thread, rather than get this one locked?

vancel
October 21, 2009, 08:00 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to be disruptive.

AJAX22
October 21, 2009, 09:07 PM
I’d like to start by apologizing if I haven’t been clear or I’ve come off as clear as I should, I had four midterms today as well as two club events and a seminar last night, so I’ve been a little tired.

I’ll try to address some of the concerns that have been raised (mostly in other forums, but people tend to have similar concerns).

One of the major goals at a club level is to create solidarity within the various conservative groups/individuals in the NYC college communities (i.e. Columbia University Libertarians, NYU republicans, etc.) And no matter what the outcome of this event, I believe that will be accomplished.

As far as the larger game plan (and why I feel that it is important to use the media to our own ends)… well here is a rough idea of what we’ve been thinking:

Even in an ideal scenario with ample resources, time, equipment, logistical coordinators etc, the actual number of individuals who could be brought out to shoot is minimal… you might break triple did gets if you did multiple group outings over the course of the year, which would be a good start, but it is really not enough in and of itself to form a self sustaining movement.

If however we focused on doing one event that had media appeal we have a higher chance of other RKBA supportive organizations actually hearing about this in the media, seeing a strong response, and there is a good likelihood that the other groups will try to arrange similar outings (probably not NFA outings, but rather the type of basic instruction/familiarization that we would like to see occur on a large scale.) And yes, I do agree that basic instruction of large numbers of individuals is one of the long term goals… Keeping that in mind, With limited resources we need to act strategically. Realistically we have the opportunity to arrange for ONE larger event or a small handful of other events (ultimately resulting in the same number of participants either way). The smaller outings will likely fly under the radar… which is not ideal… Our opponents are better funded, and know how to play the media like a fiddle. Unless a school institution cracks down on a non NFA trip there is no chance that it will gain any real momentum outside of the organizations already participating. (Please keep in mind, If any well known school, or a state institution actually tries to squelch the meet, it then becomes both a 1st and 2nd amendment issue which is MUCH more likely to succeed in the long term.)

if we use the media’s own bias against itself we can take what resources we can scrape together to give a tiny prod to them and they will broadcast from the rooftops in overblown exaggerated terms illustrating what we have done. This in turn can cause other groups to lend their efforts, draws in a wider pool of human and financial capital and ultimately can effect a more meaningful change. With enough manpower and capital I would love to see regular 2nd amendment road trips to free states from NYC… there is NO gun culture to speak of here in the city and that needs to change. NYC is a rather unique situation wherein there is a large population who is liberal primarily because there are no opposing viewpoints, and anti gun because they’ve never had the opportunity to use one, and as such they are strange mysterious fear inspiring objects. Educating and training the populace is a very worthwhile goal, but it cannot be accomplished to any significant degree by one or two small university clubs. It takes mass mobilization to get that sort of change, which requires media coverage… and since they won’t give favorable coverage, we need to trick them into thinking they have some sensationalist story, when in fact they are broadcasting and popularizing ideal representatives who can keep an on point message with regard to firearms and freedom.

With regard to CU libertarians inadvertently promoting the ‘gun nut’ stereotype I firmly believe that we are ideally suited to challenging those pre-conceived notions. While we are a relatively small, our group has a high percentage of women, minorities, and disabled individuals, and every member has experience in high pressure debate settings and can hold their own calmly and intelligently while looking good and wearing a tailored suit. They can scream ‘GUN NUTS’ all they want, but when a well dressed, articulate, beautiful woman sits down for the interview, it makes them look bad and us look good. The same goes for our other members.

People attending the event would be wearing business formal, or very nice business casual (depending on the weather) and every member would be conducting themselves impeccably. This would not be a work boots and blaze orange event. Many of our members are older students, some with military backgrounds, others with experience in the corporate world. These are NOT a bunch of whiny freshmen who drag themselves from the bar to the art hum department everyday at noon... these are some of the Top students at the school in economics, business, higher math, biology, chemistry, political science etc. and these are NOT stereotypical 'gun nuts'.
These participants will, if anything, significantly better our impression in the national media... I can't stress this point enough, this group of individuals is absolutely the best possible candidate for a 2A representative.


Essentially the tactic I am suggesting is not to give a man a fish, or teach a man to fish, but to try to hold an event with the intention of starting a movement which will inspire large numbers of those who know how to fish to teach those who don’t… thereby actually making a measurable impact.
We have to understand not only our opponents but ourselves. As gun owners NOTHING motivates us like being told that something is ‘bad’ and that we shouldn’t do it ‘for the children’. There are a lot of firearms owners who would spend every weekend for a year teaching new shooters if Bloomberg told they couldn’t /shouldn’t teach NYC residents how to safely handle a firearm or promote 2nd amendment awareness. I guess this would be the ‘Tell a man he can’t fish and he’ll spend the rest of the week catching a fish just to slap you in the face with it’ theory.

As far as the appropriateness of doing this NOW, as opposed to later… My answer to that is that the right time to do ANYTHING is NOW… can you think of a time in the last 30 years when we had a truly 2A friendly executive office and legislature? We won Heller, we have made huge inroads in reclaiming gun culture. If we give our opposition an inch, I guarantee you they'll take it. we need to keep the pressure on.

If you wait for tomorrow, all you’ll wind up with is a bunch of wasted yesterdays.

hnk45acp
October 22, 2009, 03:24 PM
Ajax although I admire what you are trying to do, I can't grasp exactly what it is you are trying to do.
Are you trying to arrange a a FA shoot with your classmates?
Are you trying to attract media attention for it?
Why would the media attempt to cover your event?
If you are trying to gain media attention, a simple shooting trip isn't going to do it.
If you do get media attention what is your message?

AJAX22
October 22, 2009, 05:44 PM
Ajax although I admire what you are trying to do, I can't grasp exactly what it is you are trying to do.
Are you trying to arrange a a FA shoot with your classmates?
Are you trying to attract media attention for it?
Why would the media attempt to cover your event?
If you are trying to gain media attention, a simple shooting trip isn't going to do it.
If you do get media attention what is your message?

first and foremost its a shooting trip for NYC college students, which will help to bring togeather some of the pro RKBA/2A groups who are not particularly active or vocal. There is a lot of potential support here, but with no focus 2A rights supporters tend to put their energy into other things.

Yes, I feel that media attention would be a good thing, exposure which shows what types of events can be held by motivated pro 2A groups will generate further interest in out of state shooting trips and help other groups to find ways of consolidating support for the RKBA movement. There are a very large number of supporters of liberty in NYC, but because they have no 2A outlet they focus on other things.

Media coverage allows what would otherwise be a small event involving farily few people to have a larger impact outside of the immediate participants. No one here in NYC seems to realize you can live in the city and be active in the 2A fight.... we need to get that message out there.

A simple shooting trip will probably not get attention, but as it has been pointed out, the media has an obsession with fully automatic firearms... if you ad 'machine gun' to the tag line of anything, it becomes national news.

Admittedly it would be nice if a simple shooting trip with .22LR rifles had the same potential for exposure, my favorite firearm is my old .22 tube fed ranger back home... but the media doesn't react as predictably, and would likely ignore it or the debate would get sidetracked into 'hunting/sporting' uses, and how in NYC we have no 'need' of those kinds of things, since there is nothing to hunt.

With machine guns it keeps the debate away from sporting use.

If an attempt is made by university or city officials to stop the outing, it then becomes an issue of 1st amendment issue which gains a tremendous amount of support even in NYC, and people who otherwise would not get active in the 2A movement will do so because it has become about an issue they believe in.

If we do get media attention, the message is:

NYC is violating our constitutionally protected rights. If you are a 2nd amendment supporter in NYC, you are NOT alone, if you want to become educated on the right to keep and bear arms there are ways to do it even in an environment as hostile as NYC. This is not about guns, this is about freedom, this is about right, it is about liberty... We are not bad people, we are not dangerous criminals... but if we cross an arbitrary line on the ground with the constitutionally protected means to defend ourselves we are instant felons with a 3 year mandatory minimum sentance (IIRC)... Columbia University used to have one of the top rifle teams in the country... now we have to choose between education and having the means to defend ourselves.

But we can work to change that, even in a city as biased as this one there are a lot of freedom minded individuals, you don't need to have a gun to have a vested interest in the 2nd amendment, get organized, get active, get a freedom safari together and go get educated on what REAL gun safety is. Learn how to be a responsible member of the 2nd amendment community. Not everyone with a gun is some sort of thug/redneck stereotype, most people are just regular Americans like yourselves who appreciate living in a free society. We want for New york to rejoin america, free america... where the constitution of the united states is still the supreme law of the land.

obviously that is just a hastily thrown together blurb, the actual message will be written/re-written and carefully structured.

Owen Sparks
October 22, 2009, 06:13 PM
I would suggest that any speakers stick to the topic of firearms rights and not go off on unrelated tangents about abortion, gay marrage, or pro or anti-war rants.

Keep it libertarian.

HGUNHNTR
October 22, 2009, 06:45 PM
I would also have to voice some concern over FA for first time shooters. If you are concerned about getting around the Hunting/Sporting use, I have a suggestion. Maybe use semi-auto AR's. Yes they are widely used for hunting and that is the point. It may be beneficial for the cause to present SA AR platform rifles as truly multi purpose as we know them. You could also use Galils,AK's,etc, etc to accomplish the same effect as FA firearms. The wow factor of seeing students firing guns that look like FA will have the same effect as if they were FA, it will also make organizing this event muc, much easier. The media already has everyone beleiving that anyfirearm that looks like a deadly "assault weapon" is FA anyway. Use it against them!

Bravo on your efforts!:)

AJAX22
October 23, 2009, 12:12 AM
The way this is shaping up I think the majority of firearms present will be semi auto's... Realistically the most pragmatic FA item would be some form of pintle mounted belt fed with a limited ability to traverse... give participants the fun of firing a machine gun without really having to be , while still adding a bit of a hook to the event.

Suppressors would be good too, everything is more fun with a suppressor on it.

Suwannee Tim
October 23, 2009, 06:43 AM
How many Libertarians are there at Columbia?

holden23
October 23, 2009, 12:14 PM
Hi, I signed up to weigh in on this. We've actually been having a lively discussion about this over at pafoa:
http://forum.pafoa.org/national-11/76234-columbia-university-libertarians-would-like-put-machine-gun-shoot-bbq.html

Basically, it's not clear that the outcome will be beneficial to gun owners. Ajax22 has stated that he wants national negative media attention, which is what the machine guns are for:


It is very likely that this will attract a huge amount of backlash from both the university and politicians (Bloomberg et all) but that just means national media attention and more to offer sponsors.


Then he thinks he can spin that negative attention into something positive. He's also hoping his school prohibits the group from organizing a machine gun shoot so they can make it into a 1st Amendment issue. And to use his own words, he wants to "bait" the media into following along:


we have the opportunity to bait them into following a (rather bland) story about students advocating for 2nd amendment rights by dangling fully automatic cheese in front of them...

link (http://forum.pafoa.org/national-11/76234-columbia-university-libertarians-would-like-put-machine-gun-shoot-bbq-page-3.html#post945911)


The problem is that if he can't pull it off perfectly, he'll turn lawmakers - and the public - against gun owners in a very gun-hostile political climate, just as election season is starting up. He hasn't said, but it seems he wants to spin it by focusing on the 1st Amendment issue - hoping his school tries to stop him first - and hoping that folks who support the 1st Amendment will also support the 2nd.

Another thing. Here's a news story about the recent alleged terror plot where the suspects wanted to use "automatic weapons" to shoot up a mall.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/10/sudbury_man_imp.html

Luckily they had a hard time getting access to automatic weapons. But here we are, talking about a publicity stunt to show a bunch of college students going out and getting machine guns to parade around on national TV. To me this all seems like a really bad idea, especially in this political climate.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for activism and I try to get people interested in shooting too. But this isn't activism - it's a publicity stunt to try and shock the public into supporting the 2nd amendment by throwing machine guns in their faces.

Earlier this year, US Attorney General Eric Holder said that he wanted to make permanent the expired Assault Weapons Ban. This administration and this Congress are very hostile towards gun owners and conservatives. Do we really want to start kicking that hornet's nest right now?

The cost of not creating this machine gun publicity stunt (again, his words (http://forum.pafoa.org/national-11/76234-columbia-university-libertarians-would-like-put-machine-gun-shoot-bbq-page-2.html#post944432)) is that we keep winning in the courts with the law on our side.
The cost of screwing up is renewed cries for another Assault Weapons Ban - using this stunt to bolster support.

Lou McGopher
October 23, 2009, 01:42 PM
As long as no one gets accidentally shot, I don't think this would turn into a screw-up.

I think using a machine gun is an okay way to grab the attention of those whom you want to attend the event, but the event should devote most of discussion of guns to more practical firearms such as pistols, shotguns, and SA rifles. Focusing on less practical weapon isn't going to do much to express the necessity of the RKBA.

I second the notion that any speakers stick to the topics of RKBA for defense of life and liberty. Few things would be as detrimental to your goals as having a speaker go on an off-topic right-wing rant. Get speakers who are credentialed, respected, and ideally who don't easily fit into mass-media stereotypes. Discuss statistics of gun ownership and DGUs, the philosophy of having an armed citizenry, and real-life stories of women and men who have used firearms for defense. Point out how GC laws are ineffective and counterproductive. Point out how dangerous an assailant can be armed with only his bare hands or melee weapon. Demonstrate the 21-foot rule.

Offer some real substance at the event. If people leave remembering only the gimmick of shooting a machine gun, then nothing good will have been accomplished.

hnk45acp
October 23, 2009, 03:11 PM
I think if you organize this shoot whether it's FA or SA it's important that it is shown to be open to all students and not necessarily a Libertarian or Republican event. Having it open will shift the focus from politics to the actual shooting, after all you want to change minds not preach to the choir.

You will prob. not get much media attention unless Columbia attempts to block this event so make sure you are within school rules in organizing this so if they object you can state that it is on political grounds and not against school rules.

AJAX22
October 23, 2009, 09:11 PM
The 'gimick' is just a hook to draw attention the the real event, and to bait bloomberg et all into a heavy handed response.

It absolutely will be open to all Columbia university students (and possibly a few other universities depending on what scale we can make this happen at) regardless of political affiliation or beliefs (although we will be establishing a strict code of conduct, as well as vetting all participants and getting various releases such as liability, etc). The goal is to provide real substantive content (instruction on firearms safety, and educational lectures which are strictly limited to the 2A and RKBA) as it does no good whatsoever to have attention drawn to a hollow construct... every aspect of this has to be on point and meaningful to the 2A.

It will not be a free-for all on all traditional libertarian issue subjects (no Abortion, Anti War, Fed reserve, etc), it is being planned with a strict adherence to focusing on the 2nd amendment (and 1st amendment if it becomes an issue) any deviation from the RKBA message would absolutely destroy what we are setting out to do.

I had some very promising conversations today with some of the movers and shakers in the 2A community and it looks like this has both a tremendous amount of support, and the potential to do some serious good for the wider firearms rights community... Some of the other projects we have in the works have had to be rescheduled to better concede with the pending court litigation (for maximum impact), but the general sentiment on the machine gun shoot was "Go For It!!!!"

With regard to the event being structured so as to adhere to Columbia university rules and regulations.... our initial review of the guidelines seems to indicate that we should be well within the bounds of protected free speech on campus with regard to organizing/advertising the event, and we will be seriously delving into the matter before taking action.

As far as how many CU libertarians there are on campus, active club participation tends to hover around a few dozen, but there are a number of part timers and others who help out with some of the conferences that get put on.

holden23
October 24, 2009, 12:45 PM
The 'gimick' is just a hook to draw attention the the real event, and to bait bloomberg et all into a heavy handed response.


And here's the problem. You want to bait the mayor of NY into a "heavy handed" response, and how do you intend to do that? By organizing a trip into PA for a machine gun publicity stunt (your words (http://forum.pafoa.org/national-11/76234-columbia-university-libertarians-would-like-put-machine-gun-shoot-bbq-page-2.html#post944432)).

Bloomberg is already meddling in PA politics with his Mayors Against Illegal Guns and suggesting that PA's gun laws are too relaxed. Don't you think that organizing a machine gun shoot - that you've already said is a publicity stunt to generate national media "backlash" - would just help to reinforce the idea that PA needs more gun regulation? It seems like you're taking a huge gamble with PA's gun laws.

You said you want "to bait bloomberg et all into a heavy handed response." What exactly is the response you're looking for? The guy is loaded, and he's using NYC's money to further his anti-gun agenda nationwide. And you're here begging for free ammo. If you get that "heavy handed response" you want, how do you intend to fight it? It seems like you're hoping that his response will piss off enough people in the 2A community that they'll jump in and join the fight.

I haven't seen anything concrete laid out, aside from you wanting to get nationwide attention using machine guns, and you want to piss off the anti-gun crowd, your mayor, and your school. How, exactly, does that benefit anyone outside the Brady Bunch?

And again, what is the "heavy handed response" you're trying to get from Bloomberg and other anti-gun politicians?

AJAX22
October 24, 2009, 07:02 PM
Holden23, Its readily apparent that you disprove of this course of action.

thank you for your concern, and input, as well as all the time you have put into this, following it from forum to forum.

I am still awaiting your alternative plan so that I can bring it to the membership.

This is at its heart a very simple concept,

Any attention that bloomberg (and his ilk) choose to draw to this, through posturing, speeches, attempted regulation, suppression of free speech or meddling in affairs outside of their jurisdiction can be framed within the context of the large and powerful attempting to squelch a small group of college students who are simply attempting to exercise a fundamental constitutionally protected right.

As you have pointed out, bloomberg and his gang are already trying to meddle in affairs outside of thier state... and as long as the debate is "Mayors for law and order vs. Scumbag who illegally brought a gun into NYC and the people who sold it to him" He has an advantage, and will continue to press the issue... silently acquiescing to his actions and hoping that he will stop is not a solution, its simply a form of apathy.

When the debate is The large powerful bureaucracies vs. students who have to flee their jurisdiction to exercise rights it changes the paradigm.

If you can't see how carefully controlling and developing a story within the media could have positive repercussions, well... I don't know what to tell you...

there is no significant risk whatsoever to PA's gun laws whatsoever posed by getting the anti's to reveal their true colors... if anything it will consolidate support within the legislature and the fence sitting community. PA legislators will not allow themselves to be pushed around by overbearing new york politicians, it would be political suicide.

If you have another idea, tweaks, suggestions for overlapping/coinciding events, I'm more than willing to take a serious look at them and bring them to the table...

If you are simply going to troll the internet trying to get this event shut down, you are wasting energy which could be put to better use elsewhere.

I have repeatedly offered to take seriously any suggestions you have with regard to alternative/coinciding events... but you simply engage in personal attacks, and construct straw man arguments using fragments of my statements that you clearly have not understood (willfully or ignorantly) in an attempt to de-rail this project.

You don't like what we are going to do... ok... I get that... thank you for your opinion, but others feel differently.

If you have a serious proposition of your own to put forward, by all means do so.

holden23
October 24, 2009, 08:21 PM
If you are simply going to troll the internet trying to get this event shut down, you are wasting energy which could be put to better use elsewhere.

I have repeatedly offered to take seriously any suggestions you have with regard to alternative/coinciding events... but you simply engage in personal attacks, and construct straw man arguments using fragments of my statements that you clearly have not understood (willfully or ignorantly) in an attempt to de-rail this project.

You don't like what we are going to do... ok... I get that... thank you for your opinion, but others feel differently.

If you have a serious proposition of your own to put forward, by all means do so.
You're right. I don't like what you're trying to do only because your plan hinges upon using machine guns to generate negative nationwide attention. I'd support your efforts more if it weren't for that. I still think gun-related publicity stunts are a bad idea, but bringing machine guns into the mix is a mistake. Most Americans don't think civilians should own machine guns. Even the NRA doesn't support us having machine guns (see: FOPA). Heck, lots of (most?) gun owners don't think people should have machine guns either. Check out the videos here to get an idea of what you're up against:
http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2009/10/24/the-spectrum-of-public-opinion-on-guns/
Even the folks who considered themselves pro-2A want machine guns banned.

Your plan, as you've described it:
Step 1: use machine guns to get lots of negative media attention
Step 2: ???
Step 3: everyone loves guns

That just doesn't work. My only issue is with the machine guns. Most people in this country don't think we should be allowed to own them, so I think it's a really bad idea to use them for a publicity stunt.

For another example of well-intentioned people doing lots of damage to the 2A movement, see:
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-us&vid=11299768-bffd-45f4-9445-9703777e0208&from=

To be very clear:
I do applaud your efforts to put this together. But I think it's a huge mistake to have machine guns involved. If you want people on your side, you'll need them to be able to support your views - and machine guns will just turn people off.

Lou McGopher
October 25, 2009, 10:44 PM
Your plan, as you've described it:
Step 1: use machine guns to get lots of negative media attention
Step 2: ???
Step 3: everyone loves guns

That's a horrible strawman.

Step 1: Generate publicity through harmless, but controversial action
Step 2: Motivate liberty-minded people in NYC, create public debate, educate others.
Step 3. More people respect RKBA

holden23
October 25, 2009, 11:50 PM
Here, I fixed it for you:


Step 1: Generate publicity through harmless, but controversial action
Step 2: Create public debate about the civilian ownership of machine guns when most Americans, politicians, and a huge % of gun owners think they should be banned outright.
Step 3. Calls for more restrictions on machine guns (and guns that resemble machine guns)

If this were just a RKBA event with some shooting, some speaking, and some instruction, then I don't think it would matter what kind of guns are there. But he said he wants to use the machine guns to bring the event into the national spotlight and to specifically get a "heavy handed response" from Bloomberg. To that, I say be careful what you wish for.

Lou McGopher
October 26, 2009, 01:01 PM
Holden, some gun owners agree with all sorts of gun control legislation. So what? Should we let them do all the talking?

And there are already calls for further restrictions. Is it better for us to remain silent against such arguments and hope those antis will simply drop the matter or change their minds? Should we let the antis do all the talking? Or is it better to demonstrate and prove our side of the issue?

highorder
October 26, 2009, 01:46 PM
Step 1: Generate publicity through harmless, but controversial action
Step 2: Create public debate about the civilian ownership of machine guns when most Americans, politicians, and a huge % of gun owners think they should be banned outright.
Step 3. Calls for more restrictions on machine guns (and guns that resemble machine guns)

I dont have a dog in the fight per se, but I see that as the most likely outcome.

Doesn't sound like a good idea.

holden23
November 3, 2009, 03:09 PM
In the most recent issue of Small Arms Review, there's an article detailing the NFATCA's efforts to have ATF declare another machine gun amnesty. I imagine a machine gun publicity stunt seeking national attention wouldn't help them very much.

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