[Readyrod]

How would the three compare for putting small game in the pot in a backpacking/survival situation? I'm mainly wondering about range and accuracy. I like the idea of a single six cause it can shoot .22 mag also but I'm mainly asking the question to compare .22 longs.
Thanks.

[kanook]

Marlin Papoose Is a break down rifle. should be more accurate than a handgun. Will need to be put together to use.Ruger Mark III Is a nice semi auto 22. very accurate and reliable. Just pull the trigger and bang. Easy to shoot one handed. Quicker to reload over the Single SixRuger Single Six

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can be used as a 22mag. Are you going to carry both cylinders? Should be more reliable if completely dirty compared to a semi auto. Won't misfeed or stovepipe if trying to shoot to fast. Slower on the reload. Need two hands to reload (usually)

[federalfarmer]

+1 kanook I agree with you. To the OP I think it comes down to rifle or handgun.
After you decide then the answer is which one first!

[MCgunner]

Just for me, my Mk 2 has a 2x scope on it and it instant death on any attacking man eater squirrel. :D It shoots 1" groups at 50 yards, more than accurate enough. Hell, its stable mate 10/22 shoots 1 3/4" groups at 50 yards, but of course, it doesn't have glass on it. But, I don't think it'd do any better if it did. Being a handgun hunter for a while, I rather like the little Ruger. I just got it a bit over a year ago and have put 4 or 5 Federal value packs through it so far with only a few misfires due to, well, it's a rimfire. I also have a contender with a .22 10" scoped barrel that's even more accurate. I've taken quite a few squirrel with that one. I'm as good with it as I am a rifle, provided I can brace up on my knees or find a rest. The rifle has its advantages on running rabbits and such. If you get REAL serious about taking small game, the shotgun is a good choice. My 20" 20 gauge Spartan coach gun breaks down and fits in my backpack. It weighs shy of 6 lbs and takes choke tubes. I could even take large game with it. One down side, the ammo weighs more and is bulkier which is a consideration if you're back packing.

[Readyrod]

For various reasons all three have advantages and disadvantages that tend to equal out for my purposes. I'm not too worried about rate of fire or ease of reloading, again they are all suitable for my purposes. Right now I would like to know about accuracy and range. I prefer iron sights but I'd also like to know how they compare with scopes. I imagine tho that a scope would be best on the Marlin. I've read great things about the mark IIs and IIIs. I've also read that the Marlin isn't super accurate. Most people love the single six tho they are maybe less accurate than the others. I just want to know how far out can I hit something, say, rabbit sized with each. Is there a significant difference?

[MCgunner]

Off hand, you're going to want the rifle. I've taken a lot of rabbits off hand with a handgun and 25 yards is getting out there. I can hold about 3" on a good day when I'm rested and not huffing and puffing at 25 yards off hand even with a scope. I know guys that are better, do a lot of bullseye shooting. Me, out of 10 shots, I'm going real good to get most of 'em in the 9 ring with maybe a flyer and mostly 10 ring hits. That's rested, not after hiking up a 2000 ft elevation change.

Rested, either an off hand rested postition on the knees, kneeling, creedmore, that sort of thing, I can do rather well with the pistol, good enough to shoot the 10 ring out at 25 and even 50 depending on my hold. I rather like resting over my knees with my back against a tree. That's how I squirrel hunt most times. I can slide out and lay back on the ground to get elevation.

Scoped pistols REALLY help me for hunting. I've killed a lot of squirrel.with an iron sighted pistol, but given the choice, give me glass. My Ruger carries rather well in a UM's shoulder rig, not sure how that'd work out with a backpack. A bandoleer rig should work well, though. I've not even tried the shoulder rig with my back pack. I usually have a .357 or .38 on me when hiking.

I don't normally think about squirrel hunting or that on trips, but I have .38 loads on me if I should need 'em. I have an extremely accurate 4" Taurus M66 .357 magnum that shoots 1" off a rest at 25 and while I don't hunt squirrel with it, I've shot squirrels with .22s that were slightly less accurate. I've shot rabbits with it, though. I had rather carry that .357 on bear, lion country than the .22 and when I've taken hikes and back pack trips in my life, it has usually been out in the New Mexico mountains. Be kinda boring to hike around here, LOL. I have done some day hikes in east Texas, but no overnighters or long trips, just ain't that much open public land in Texas and if I'm going to do that, it's going to be iin pretty and wild country. I ain't in as good a shape now days as I age, so I haven't done it in a while.

If you choose a rifle, I still think glass helps, but it's not as big a help as it is on a pistol. I've shot a lot of game at out to 75 yards with an open sighted .22. At 50 yards, I don't really need a scope on squirrel, though most of my .22s have a scope. On a pistol, though, you'll just have to experience it, but a scope is a REAL help. I don't like too much magnification. My LERs are 2x, even on my deer barrel, a .30-30, for the contender. The sight radius of the rifle helps it a lot. As my eyes age, I do appreciate glass, especially at dawn or dusk, but I can still see well enough to do some decent shooting with irons, especially a ghost ring aperture.

Ranges, all depends on how good ya are.

Off hand shooting only, I am pretty deadly out to 25-30 yards with a handgun. Give me a rest and we'll call it 50+ depending on caliber, especially with a scope. :D I don't like shooting off hand in the field if I can help it. I do have a monopod, too, and a set of shooting stix. Rifle, off hand, no sweat at 50 yards on a rabbit, done it many times, even running if I have time to get on him. Squirrels are 50 yard targets, too, with a good .22, standing off hand or preferable shooting off a tree trunk or something. Again, I always look for a rest, never take an off hand shot unless I think I can make it and I don't have any other choice.

[Speedo66]

I don't thing there is much of a comparison between a rifle and a pistol.

Equally sighted, the rifle is going to win every time.

The Model 70 has just about the same action as the Marlin 60, which has a great reputation for reliability.

+1 if it's the stainless and plastic model.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I owned a Papoose some tears back, regret selling it now I had a scope on it.
I now own a Ruger Mk slabside w/a scope which is really great accuracy but that Marlin would literally drive a tack.

[Ed Harris]

This old article of mine below discussed tradeoffs between a .22 rifle and a pistol. Bottom line, if other family members who are not hobby shooters will need to use the firearm, a rifle will get better results with less ammo expenditure, in hunting for camp meat.

It takes a higher level of skill and frequent practice to reliably put meat in the pot with a pistol. By the time you do a trigger job and put good optics on a .22 handgun it costs more than a simple, inexpensive .22 rifle which does the job as well. A "full-race" pistol with scope doesn't holster easily. If you must carry the darned thing in your hand a rifle is more effective!

-------------------- .22s for Country Living -----------------

If you live far enough out in the country that 911 response is longer than a few minutes, having a firearm available makes sense for home security, as well as for meat gathering and pest control. For the NON-HOBBY shooter who intends to own only one firearm, the best choice is a simple, bolt-action repeating 22 rifle.

The ordinary bolt-action .22 rifle with open sights is often ignored by serious shooting hobbyists, but it is inexpensive and works just fine in the farm and camp utility role. A bolt action is the most simple design for a novice to use. This is because its chamber is exposed and easily accessible when the action is opened. You can see if the chamber is empty and everyone around can see that the gun is safe. A bolt action rifle may be single-loaded and fired one round at a time. It remains functional if you loose the clip magazine or if a tubular magazine becomes damaged. Single-loading a pump, lever or autoloader isn’t as easy.

Hobby shooters like semi-automatic .22s because they are just plain fun to shoot. They hold more rounds and shoot faster. While their increased firepower could be useful in a self-defense role, it is very wasteful of ammunition, which has become increasingly expensive and will be scarce when times get tough.

Telescopic sights are a help to older people with poor or declining eyesight, but they make the rifle less handy. Inexpensive Chinese scopes which you see in discount stores are usually of poor quality, and not well sealed against moisture. Cheap scopes have inferior optical quality, are less rugged and often fail to hold a zero. Adding a good quality scope and sturdy mounts will double the cost of your farm utility rifle. But if you need a scope because you cannot see iron sights well enough to shoot the varmint, you should grit your teeth and buy the best which you can afford.

Receiver or "peep" sights are a good compromise for the cost-conscious. Anyone who has served in the military since WWII is familiar with a peep sight. It is simple and rugged. The combination of a simple .22 bolt action with a bright front bead that you can see and a peep sight with large hunting aperture is useful in dim woods and is hard to beat for recreational use, subsistence hunting, home defense and uitility use.

It is true that a practiced and skilled shooter can reliably kill small game with a .22 handgun. But, unless you are willing to practice frequently to acquire and maintain skill, a rifle is MUCH better to store in your survival ruck, bail-out or man-overboard bag. An adult of average skill, after basic marksmanship training, such as Appleseed http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ and some practice can readily hit a target the size of a tuna or soup can at 50 yards using an iron-sighted .22 rifle. This is fully adequate for most field shooting.

Most people in first learning to shoot a .22 pistol or revolver handgun after basic instruction can hit the can reliably out to 10 or 15 yards. A pistol shooter of moderate skill can do so using a two-handed hold at 25 yards. Only an expert pistol shot can hit small game on demand using a .22 handgun, which even an average novice rifle shooter can at 50 yards. This is simple reality.

Handguns do have the advantage of small size, light weight, low bulk and portability. For this reason many people who live and work outdoors in rural areas carry a .22 handgun. A handgun doesn't get in the way as much when you have other work to do.

In new .22 handguns one of the best sellers is the Ruger semi-auto. Out of the box, from sandbags, Rugers average 2 inch ten-shot groups at 25 yards with high speed ammo of average quality. Standard velocity or subsonic match ammo can shave a half inch off of that, and is quieter, but costs more and isn't found at Walmart.

Bolt action .22 rifles are more usually accurate than semi-autos, pumps or levers. The best buy in a new bolt-action .22 is one of the Marlins. Almost any .22 bolt action rifle should readily shoot ten-shot groups of 2 inches or less at 50 yards with iron sights, assuming "good ammo" of the major brands, not discount, bulk-box stuff from Walmart.

Any good .22 auto pistol having a barrel longer than 4 inches should shoot ten-shot, two-inch groups at 25 yards off sandbags, again, assuming "good ammo." With revolvers you are rarely as lucky.

The best buy in a new .22 revolver which is accurate enough and reliable is the Ruger Single-Six. The Single Six in my experience is as fully accurate the Ruger autopistol. Most other .22revolvers available will do no better than 2-1/2 inch to 3 inch six-shot groups at 25 yards. Also in my experience, the most ratty pre-war Colt Woodsman or High Standard .22 pistol which you can still see any rifling in will put all but the very best, expensive target .22 revolvers to shame.

For outdoor handgun use 25 yards is a good benchmark because 25 yards is a fairly long shot to take small game with a handgun. But, if your survival gun which won't to better than a 2-inch group at 25 yards you will stay hungry unless you can get closer. If you are exhausted, cold, hungry and tired, a .22 rifle is easier to shoot well when you are down to your last rounds.

Fixed sights are best for the field or “survival” gun, but must be carefully zeroed to hit where they look. You may need to drift the rear sight for windage or carefully file the front or rear sights to get a clear sight picture and to adjust point of impact. You want a iron sighted .22 rifle or handgun zeroed to strike about an inch above the point of hold at 25 yards. Gives an optimum trajectory where the bullet does deviate more than an inch above or below the point of hold to about 55 yards with standard velocity ammo and 70 yards with high velocity.

Zeroing requires spending range time to see which ammo is both reliable and accurate, setting up the gun for that ammo and then buying a good supply to last a long time. A case of 5000 rounds will last a casual shooter for years. Good quality .22 ammo doesn't go "bad" if stored properly.

If your gun has adjustable sights, once you get your perfect zero, flood the adjustment screws with LocTite so that the sights will stay put. Serious hobby shooters may put scopes or red-dot sights on their long barreled target .22 handguns. By the time you put high quality, reliable optics on a standard Ruger pistol your "full race dragon" pistol tips the scales at about 50 ozs.! A heavy barrel, scoped .22 handgun is more bulky and much less handy for field use than the "Target and Trapper" model pistols of the 1930s and 40s which were designed for the backpack survival situations we talk about around the camp fire and plan for.

The .22 pistol I actually carry in my survival rucksack is a High Standard Model B made in 1942 with a 6-3/4" barrel. It uses the same magazines as my pre-war Sport Model Colt Woodsman and is similarly trim, light and accurate. Older High Standards in very good to excellent serviceable condition are common on web sites such as Cabela's Gun Library, and are worth looking for to have shipped to your FFL dealer, if you are serious about finding a .22 pistol for your survival ruck.

CCI's High Velocity Small Game Bullet (SGB) and CCI Subsonic Hollow-Point are the best hunting ammo, depending upon whether you want maximum crush power and penetration, or if you want low noise from your rifle for garden pest control without disturbing the neighbors. I find Stingers less accurate, noisy, giving inadequate penetration on larger varmints, such as feral dogs, and they destroy too much edible meat on pot game. CCI Blazer is my favoirite low cost, high-volume practice ammo. The CCI Subsonic HP is the only low noise (in a rifle), standard velocity round I have found which also expands reliably from a 4" or longer semi-auto pistol. While I prefer the SGB for groundhogs, subsonic hollow-points are great for stuff like squirrels and rabbits.

Getting any bullet expansion from .22 revolvers is problematic because the cylinder gap reduces velocity and any cylinder misalignment causes asymmetrical scrubbing of the bullet in transitioning from the cylinder to barrel forcing cone, accentuating initial yaw as it leaves the muzzle. In water-jug tests I have found that the same bullets which expand well from my 4-1/2" barrel Woodsman do not from revolvers. In revolvers you are better off with solids.

Practice with your .22 frequently from field positions. With handguns use a lanyard of parachute cord to steady it with a 2-hand hold. Practice until you can hit a Vienna sausage can every time at 50 feet, then increase the distance to 25 yards. When that becomes easy, double the distance to 50 yards and shoot from a steady sitting position or using an improved rest. Once you start trying to bounce the can around a dirt bank at 100 yards you've become a hobby shooter and are just showing off!

[ArmedBear]

Shooting challenges are all well and good. I have a rather heavily modified Mark II slabside bull barrel Target model with a 2X scope, and I can shoot a quarter offhand at 25 yards with it, about 75% of the time, and a silver dollar about 95%. I shoot after-work club matches and there are guys there who handily beat my scores with a 1911 one-handed -- one was in the Olympics and the other does Camp Perry annually. That environment really pushes you to get an accurate pistol and work on your shooting skills! Nice people, too.

But anyway, it has never occurred to me to rely on a .22 handgun of any kind for my protein. That Mark II Target with a scope is a heavy SOB for a pistol, too, and it's still just a .22.

Maybe where you are, the small game sits around at 20 yards of less, and waits for you to shoot it, but that's not been my experience.:)

If I were going to rely on my gun for my meals, I'd take a 20 Gauge shotgun, not a .22. There's a huge difference between popping ground squirrels with a Marlin 60 for fun and hunting practice down the road from home, and wanting to shoot a running rabbit or passing bird with one shot because you need the meat and have limited ammo. Every rabbit I've seen lately has been running like a raped ape, and if anyone could hit it with a .22 pistol or rifle, I'd give him $100 on the spot.

If I had to rely on a rifle, I'd take a Marlin 1894C. It's dead-accurate with light .38s for small game (if you're a masochist or can't shoot a shotgun worth a hill of beans), and can handle the hottest .357, which from a carbine can be adequate for deer (which probably aren't worth the work unless it's cold enough to keep your meat from spoiling).

Ever read Sam Fadala's "Game Care and Cookery"? He's a backpack hunter who lives off small game while pursuing big game. Interesting read, a good book on processing game, and a decent cookbook as well.

[Readyrod]

Ok so with a pistol, should I figure 25 yards with iron sights and about 50 yards with a scope? And for a rifle 50 yards with iron sights? How about a scope on a rifle? How about iron sights or a scope on a papoose? I read that the papoose is less accurate. I also read one guys concern about keeping zero when mounting a scope on the receiver as opposed to the barrel.
Great info folks, I really appreciate it.

[ArmedBear]

Ok so with a pistol, should I figure 25 yards with iron sights and about 50 yards with a scope?

Dude...

Last Spring pistol league, I was averaging about 99/100 on an NRA target at 25 yards with my scoped Ruger, and our team took first place. So I have pretty warm, fuzzy feelings about Ruger .22 pistols. I have two of them, so far, mainly so I can keep a scope on one and irons on the other.:)

Theoretically, I can hit a rabbit offhand at a decent distance. Theoretically. Rabbits aren't targets.

I think you're high if you think you can FIGURE 25 yards with iron sights on small game. Moving game? Forget it.

I agree with Ed Harris' article mostly, though I have to laugh at the idea of carrying an antique High Standard for survival, neat-o as they are. If it stops working perfectly, and even the most die-hard HS fans I know say they do break down, you might as well pitch it in the nearest lake. Not many gunsmiths know what to do with them, even.

A Ruger, well, it won't stop working. Every so often, take out the bolt, spray in some CLP, wipe it out with a rag through the ejection port, replace the bolt, and it'll go for thousands of rounds. I've tested one and I put three bricks of dirty ammo through it, without doing anything, not even oiling, and it just kept working. It started to lose a little accuracy at about 1200 rounds due to fouling around the chamber face. And I wouldn't consider anything but stainless. This is 2009.

If you do get a Ruger pistol for this purpose, I'd get a used Mark II instead of the Mark III. I like the 22/45 also, but not everyone does. It's lighter, but you can't change out the grips if you don't like them.

The bottom line? You can reliably take a rabbit at about twice the distance as any .22, with a 20 Gauge and #6 shot. If the rabbit is moving, make that 10 times the distance. And with small shot in a shotgun, you are much safer taking shots at squirrels or birds in trees or in the air, or even shooting at a rabbit if there are other people anywhere around.

The further bottom line? A lot of people think about hunting for survival, when it takes weeks to starve. People tend to die of thirst and exposure, not hunger.

Now if you're talking about hunting for the challenge, that's a whole different deal. Knock yourself out. Choose whatever challenge you want.

Don't ignore the Marlin 39M, no longer made but available used. It's a takedown .22 lever gun, much easier to clean in the field than any of the above, and light. It's not stainless; that's the only downside to me. I also like the 39A, which probably offers a little more practical accuracy with a heavier 24" barrel, but weighs more than I'd want to pack around, I think. These guns are accurate, reliable, and even a lot of fun. They shoot shorts, too. I might add Skinner peep sights, only because the semi-buckhorns can be a little hard to shoot 100% consistently in the vertical plane, IME (I shoot a variant of the 39M, and a 39A).

[MCgunner]

With the pistol, effective range CAN be 50 yards easily on a squirrel. That supposes a rested postition on a stationary target. I've done it with an IRON sighted pistol in the field, but then, when sport hunting, I don't cry if I miss, just try harder. :D The rifle is easier to shoot off hand and I've even hit rabbits at 40 yards on the run with one.

Purely for protein, give me a shotgun. Like I said earlier, the trade off is weight and bulk of the ammo, but shotguns rule when your patience thins and you wanna KILL something. LOL A 20 gauge, properly choked, will reach out past 40 yards on small game AND birds and switch to slugs for deer/hogs to 50 yards at least. Purely for survival, consider perhaps one of the H&Rs or something like my Spartan 20 gauge coach gun. I would likely survive even with the pistol if there's enough game around, but the shotgun is near a sure thing by comparison. If I'm dealing with necessity, I don't think in terms of sportsmanship. :D

[ArmedBear]

when sport hunting, I don't cry if I miss, just try harder.

Yes. You said it better than me.

That's the difference between "can figure on" and "have made the shot".:)

I can hang a silhouette target, send it out to 25 yards, and usually hit the head with a DAO snubbie and iron sights.

If I'm ever attacked by someone with a weapon, I'm going for COM at near contact distance. Doesn't matter what I "could" hit.

That's the difference between "sport" and "survival", IMO.

[MCgunner]

Hmm, this .45 Colt/.410 could be good for this, light, easy to carry. I'd have to find out if the choke stops the rotation of the shot string as it passes, like my Contender does. Also, I'm just assuming it's a rifled barrel for the .45 Colt. No rifle sights, though, just a bead. Might put a low power scope on it or something, have to figure that one out.

[Leaky Waders]

I've killed lots of squirrel and rabbits with an iron sighted 4 3/4 inch ruger mark 2.

It was the first pistol I bought and I still have it, also have one in ss and a 6 inch barrel in still new in the box. Look for a mark 2 and see if you can still get one.

Marlin makes fine accurate rifles. Everyone should own at least one.