#10 or #11 caps? What's the difference?


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AbitNutz
October 21, 2009, 07:37 PM
Ok, I have been shooting Remington #11 caps on Treso nipples on my ROA. The Winchesters just didn't work for me. They would typically blow apart and jam up the cylinder to the point I had to remove the cylinder to clear it. I moved to Remington #11's and the problem is solved. I just had someone swear up and down that I should be using #10 Remington caps on Treso nipples. So what the heck is the difference?

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dispatch55126
October 21, 2009, 07:49 PM
As I understand it, #10 caps are slightly narrower than #11 caps. That said, I've had #10 caps from brand "A" be too narrow and too wide from brand "B". If #11 works, then go for it. If you have to squeeze the skirt to get a tight fit, try the #10's.

Fingers McGee
October 21, 2009, 08:00 PM
Remington #11s are shorter than #10s. Diameter is virtually the same.

mykeal
October 21, 2009, 10:20 PM
Ok, here's the chart again. We really should put this in the sticky.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/CapSizes.jpg
By the way, Winchester caps are just rebranded CCI's.

And you don't get three decimal place precision for 4 cents apiece. What that means is that those dimensions vary from lot to lot as the machines wear and the material properties vary. The CCI No.10's that fit today might not fit next year when you buy another batch; same thing for the other sizes and brands.

Hellgate
October 22, 2009, 04:36 PM
mykeal,
The RWS #1055 is even smaller and longer. It's the RWS equivalent to a #10. They don't fit anything I own.

AbitNutz
October 22, 2009, 04:52 PM
I tried looking around to see where I could buy RWS caps. I thought I'd give them a try. They're not generally available and what I did find were expensive. Add in that you have to buy them a 1000 at a time and the hazmat fee...wow.

I just shipped my ROA off to Lee's Gunsmithing to let Rowdy Yates have his way with it...so I'll guess I'll have some time to cast some bullets up...

hildo
October 22, 2009, 04:59 PM
Dynamit Nobel RWS 1075, different lots, fits everyhting I have.
Uberti Walker, Dragoon, 51 Navy and an original R&S with, aftermarket, nipples.
They are German made, maybe that's why they are more costly in the US.

CCI 11 needed to be pinched, therefore I quit using CCI.
Pricing of Dynamit Noble and CCI caps is identical here.

Hildo

BlackNet
October 22, 2009, 05:08 PM
I was on the phone with CCI ammo today, I was told the reference ID (inside diameter) for the #11 and #11 magnum percussion caps are 0.1683

AbitNutz
October 22, 2009, 05:10 PM
I had no luck at all with CCI/Winchester. I tried #10's and #11's and neither fit well. Every cylinder full seemed to have some problem that ultimately ended with removing the cylinder and clearing debris. I changed to Remington caps and no issues at all, shot after shot.

mykeal
October 22, 2009, 05:18 PM
The RWS #1055 is even smaller and longer. It's the RWS equivalent to a #10.
Which No. 10, CCI or Remington?

BlackNet
October 22, 2009, 06:16 PM
AbitNutz, try anew set of nipples. there seems to be very little standard in nipples. I had a set of tresco's that would not fit #11 that well but did fit #11 mag's, I changed them out and the new set (same make/model) and they fit super well.

Sagetown
October 22, 2009, 06:32 PM
Ok, here's the chart again. We really should put this in the sticky.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/CapSizes.jpg
By the way, Winchester caps are just rebranded CCI's.

And you don't get three decimal place precision for 4 cents apiece. What that means is that those dimensions vary from lot to lot as the machines wear and the material properties vary. The CCI No.10's that fit today might not fit next year when you buy another batch; same thing for the other sizes and brands.

mykeal ~ might I add this visual to go along with your data ~ ~

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/FourBee/sizecompare.jpg

BlackNet
October 22, 2009, 06:38 PM
it is copper and corrugated so size will change with pressure. which means between production, packing, shipping, loading/unloading, fat fingers etc.. that size will vary heavily. It is designed to bend and move after all.

Ed

AbitNutz
October 22, 2009, 06:46 PM
Maybe it would be better if we did away with nipples on revolvers entirely. I've seen some cylinders made in Europe that use the 209 shotgun primer.

I'm not exactly how that works; what you need to seat the primer or how you de-cap it. It does seem to offer better ignition and you never have to worry about incorrect fit, splitting and jamming.

mykeal
October 22, 2009, 07:17 PM
I was on the phone with CCI ammo today, I was told the reference ID (inside diameter) for the #11 and #11 magnum percussion caps are 0.1683
I have no difficulty believing that. The inside diameter measurement is very difficult to make reliably; I measured at least 20 samples of each brand and size, and made at least 3 inside diameter measurements on each cap. The numbers were all over the place. What you see in the chart is an arithmetic average. Others have attempted to verify/refute the numbers and report similar difficulties. CCI's four decimal place spec is a bit amusing as it implies 0.00005 tolerance precision, which is clearly silly in a 4 cent part.

BlackNet
October 22, 2009, 08:17 PM
it's not silly when the die used is that :) now what comes out is that size yes but after all the banging around and getting picked up etc.. plus soft metal things get distorted and bent easily.

Smokin_Gun
October 22, 2009, 08:34 PM
Ok, here's the chart again. We really should put this in the sticky.

There are a few differant length cones ... three not counting thread types short sort, short and long I have run into SS bein' the Santa Barbara, short say Uberti, and long Euroarms/ASP. That cap chart shows the number 10 Rem cap bein' longer they work best on my S.B. Rems ... the Rem 11's work best on most Colts, for me. Now the CCI #11 was a perfect fit on my 1861 Old Army Rem ~ but I have to squeeze a hair CCI#11's on my Piettas.
Good topic thanks for makin' me think and the Charts... I learned sumfin :O)

Hellgate
October 22, 2009, 09:28 PM
Mykeal,
The RWS 1055 is the RWS version of a #10 cap and happens to be the smallest cap I've ever bought. It probably is closer to the CCI #10 only because the CCI #10 is the smallest of those available.
What I like about the Rem#10 is that it is "pre-split" and will bell out to fit a greater variety of nipple cone shapes than the more rigid CCIs and RWS caps. The Rems don't fall off under recoil either. I have replace some of my ASM and Piettas with the Uncle Mike's/Butler creek stainless nipples but my Uberti and Euroarms '58 Remingtons all thake the Rem#10 cap as well as the Uberti Walkers and Dragoon.

pohill
October 23, 2009, 06:44 AM
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

4v50 Gary
October 23, 2009, 10:26 AM
Good idea mykeal.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
October 23, 2009, 11:20 AM
Abitnutz, that's what I shoot. Remington #10's and Remington #11's. Never have had a problem. Don't know if any of the others would work or not because I'vd never tried them. I know I'vd shot Remington for many a year. I'll tell you what I have never been able to understand. Like for instance my Manual that came with each of my 2 '47's told me to use #11 caps. I do. They fit perfectly on both Walker's and on the extra cylinders. Right on down the line with each of my guns be it calling for #10's or #11's. Somebody else will buy a '47 and immediatedly jump on here and start screaming about how such and such a cap won't fit. Well anyway, I use Remington #10's and #11's and use one or the other on my guns depending on what the book told me to use and I have never had a problem and I have been shooting for a pretty damn good while....

firescout
October 26, 2009, 03:47 AM
Remington #10s fit my ROA best, and CCI #10s now fit my Pietta 1851 Navy .36 best. I polished the stock Pietta nipples for a good fit with the CCIs. Out-of-the-box, 11s and Rem 10s were too loose, and CCI #10 were too tight.

Smoke&Awe
October 26, 2009, 06:32 PM
I've only been shooting black powder muzzle-loading rifles (both cap & flint) plus cap & ball pistols & revolvers for 30+ years, but one thing I've learned is that the manufacturing of components vary from decade to decade, year to year and lot to lot. So I'll restrict my comments here to percussion caps purchased in 2009 and cap & ball revolvers manufactured in 2008-2009.

Historically I've always used Remington #10 percussion caps. Last Spring I was caught up as a victim of percussion cap (and rifle/pistol primer) hording by others, and couldn't shoot for several months. Finally I discovered that one of several local gun stores had Remington #11 percussion caps "hidden in the back of the store". They didn't even have a full carton, only 500 percussion caps, assured me that they would work with ALL my cap & ball revolvers, and discounted them at the carton rate.

Out at the range, with both my 2008 & 2009 production UBERTIs & PIETTAs, the results were IDENTICAL.

The first chamber fired and the recoil knocked ALL the 5 remaining percussion caps off their nipples. 1847, 1851, 1858 & 1860 UBERTI/PIETTA revolvers ALL dropped these Remington #11 percussion caps at my feet.

Then I squeezed the remaining Remington #11 percussion caps between my fingers to make them oval shaped. They THEN stayed on, ruined my fingers and ruined many a day at the club.

FINALLY, last month, a store OUT-OF-STATE received a shipment of Remington #10 percussion caps, so I wasted several hours and gallons of gasoline so I can shoot every week.

After 200+ shots using current Remington #10 percussion caps in my 1847, 1851, 1858 & 1860 UBERTI/PIETTA revolvers, no drops, and no misfires.

AbitNutz
October 26, 2009, 06:33 PM
polished the nipples? How did you do that?

River City John
November 23, 2009, 09:15 AM
mykeal ~ might I add this visual to go along with your data ~ ~

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/FourBee/sizecompare.jpg
Sagetown,
would appreciate credit for my photo.
And you have plagiarized the information incorrectly:
From l. to r.- Rem.#10, Rem.#11, Dynamit Nobel#1075, CCI#10, CCI#11.

This illustration first appeared in my article in The Shootist magazine, September/October 2007, p.19.
I have subsequently posted it on threads in CAS City and The Frontier Spot.


River City John

Sagetown
November 23, 2009, 11:04 AM
Hello River City John: Sagetown here........ Don't know Sagebrush ? Probably a typo......:uhoh:

Thanks for that great photo, I'll try and change the typo. Don't know where I came across it with the info, but being its your photo you should know how you had them set up.
Sorry about the you have plagiarized the information incorrectly :o ,
but typo's are inevitable. :D:D:D

Sagetown (I chose this name from a bygone community on our ranch where the old Butterfield Stage Line came thru. The old well at the Stage Coach Station is still there.):cool:

mykeal
November 23, 2009, 01:34 PM
Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."
River City John - Since "Sagebrush" (sic) did not claim your work as his own, your accusation of plagiarism is unjustified. I'm sure he will accept your apology, however.

Umm, did your posts on CAS City and The Frontier Spot contain copyright notices? Just curious, not that it matters.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. We look forward to many informative discussions.

poetgrey
December 1, 2009, 12:02 AM
There is a difference, not sure if it really matters. I've learned through trial and error what works for best for a particular pistol. I have a Uberti Remmie which sports after market nipples instead of the originals, another Uberti, an 1860 Army that wears the original nipples and a percussion Kentucky, all of which favor a different brand or size. Actually, the Kentucky will take anything I can cram onto it but the wheel guns are more demanding, especially the Remmie, no matter which nipple is used. I wonder how the old primers used to fit?? Did the old guys have as much trouble with caps as we do? It is the bane of percussion revolvers. I got lots of advice from people...you've got to start somewhere...I became familiar with what is out there...and now I've got some pistols that work...most of the time.

TheRodDoc
February 9, 2010, 10:22 PM
I don't believe they had as much trouble with caps as most do now day. The first thing very different is the guns aren't manufactured well enough now.

Way to much clearance behind the unfired cap and back frame. The cap can just slide off. In most original guns they can't.

To fix this in a new copy you would have to use longer nipples. They should be fitted for rear clearance.
I have an idea that the large clearance in newer guns might be to protect careless users from multiple firing from a nipple being to long or close to the back frame. My colts have only .001 to .002 clearance between the cap and back frame. This is when the cylinder is pushed back tightly.

When they are close like this then it is important when reassembling your gun each time to always check this clearance again. All chambers. It can change with wear or a nipple not seated correctly.

The next problem with new guns is that no one seems to worry about the hole size in the nipple. That is what is important. not so much the outer size of it.

The hole in the nipple has to be sized along with the hammer pressure against the nipple and the pressure in the chamber. If the hole it a little to big of dia. the hammer will blow back when fired. this lets the spent cap open up and back up and fall off. And possibly jamming your gun. If it is sized right there isn't any way for the cap to get off the nipple while firing. The hammer has it trapped there. If it stays sealed on the nipple it also won't open up the fired cap.

So if you are having many fired caps fall off you most likely need different nipples that might need to be longer and or a smaller hole in them.

I have no idea of what is available today. Way back there were many choices for the nipples and cap sizes.

Oyeboten
February 9, 2010, 11:22 PM
Hi TheRodDoc,


Good mentions there.


I have a San Marco 3rd Dragoon, which was missing some Nipples, so I got a set of 'TRESCO' Nipples for it, and, they seem good with Remington No. 11 Caps, though some Caps do in fact partially 'open' after firing, if with no jamming incidents so far.


Got a 'Uberti' 1860 Colt Civillian .44, Factory Nipples, lucky me, it loves the Remington No. 11 Caps also, same as the Dragoon, with occasional 'opening' though no fall off and jam issues.


Interesting mention on rear Clearance and Nipple-length/height.

Too bad 'TRESCO' does not offer some length options, or, a simple long version one could file down as one needs for ending up with an optimum length-height/clearence.

pohill
February 10, 2010, 06:37 AM
I don't believe they had as much trouble with caps as most do now day. The first thing very different is the guns aren't manufactured well enough now.

Not so sure about that. Bill Hickok was saved when a cap misfired once (the gun was pointed at his head).
I recently acquired a diary that belonged to a Civil War Veteran. In it (in 1876) he talks about the caps not popping on his hunting shotgun. It was decided that the caps were too small and when he seated them on the nipples, the mercury fulminate was disturbed.
I find that if I pay attention to each shot and where each spent cap goes, I don't have a problem. My 3rd Generation 1861 .36 spits spent caps out like a semi-auto.

mykeal
February 10, 2010, 07:04 AM
Too bad 'TRESCO' does not offer some length options, or, a simple long version one could file down as one needs for ending up with an optimum length-height/clearence.
In fact Treso does offer different length options. The 1/4x28 and 12x28 thread sizes each have 3 different lengths available and the metric M6x0.75 size has two. However, they don't provide the specs on how long they are, they just call them 'rifle', 'pistol' or 'musket' nipples.

And the length differences are much greater than the few thousandths that TheRodDoc is talking about (the following are overall length in inches for the 1/4x28 nipples):
11-50-01: 0.635 long
11-50-11: 0.494 long
11-50-13: 0.538 long

TheRodDoc
February 10, 2010, 07:42 AM
pohill,

I would say if your 1861 is blowing off a lot of spent caps that you might need a new hammer spring or nipples with smaller holes in them or both.

If you have a friend with a same gun, even a copy, that doesn't do that use a pull scale with a wire loop attached to it. hook the loop over the hammer and pull straight back. Check both guns. If your hammer pull is a lot lighter you might need a new spring. If you can compare with more then one gun the better it would be. If the spring is similar then the nipple holes must be to large.

If you are a math wiz you could probably figure out just what size hole the nipple needs and how much pressure the hammer needs to keep the nipple sealed during firing. You would need to roughly know the chamber pressure of a max load.
I Can't. All I know is that the bigger the hole the heaver the hammer needs to be. (stronger spring)

The .044" difference in two of those nipple length would be ok for some guns I have seen.

Oyeboten
February 10, 2010, 07:44 AM
Hi mykeal,



Oh!


Good to know...I had no idea.


I will examine my two C&B Revolvers and see how their clearence is, Capped Nipple to Sheild area.

pohill
February 10, 2010, 09:25 AM
I would say if your 1861 is blowing off a lot of spent caps that you might need a new hammer spring or nipples with smaller holes in them or both
Nope. The gun is perfect. Trouble free. Never jams. Never misfires. I wish all my guns were like this one.
People have to understand that problems with caps come with the territory.
That's why I keep posting this:
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

Clarification: my mind is getting ahead of itself due to my 3 cups of perked coffee. When I said the caps were spit out, I meant that as the cylinder rotates, they are spit out from the side as the next nipple lines up. One of these days I'll figure out why - for now, I'm happy with that feature.

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