[mountain_cowboy]

I read a great deal of posts regarding certain states' unconstitutionally restrictive firearms laws and the threats these pose to firearms owners. I assume that the RKBA and personal integrity are dear to any who participate in this board. So, my question is: Why would anyone who cares about their personal liberties and freedoms continue living in states with these absurd laws (ie. CA, NY, MD, etc.)? Despite the positive qualities of some of these states (scenic beauty, job market, etc.), I would never live in a state that denied me such fundamental freedoms, especially when other states respected my liberties. And I know, I know, you could only find a job there, your family lives there, it's where you grew up, you're in school there. But, these reasons just don't hold up to the restrictiveness of the laws.

[Augustwest]

But, these reasons just don't hold up to the restrictiveness of the laws.

Wouldn't that kinda be up to the individual to decide?

[Brigrat]

I live in CA, because that is where I currently work. I am always looking for a job in my field that pays as well as the job I have now, and the areas cost of living is similar to where I live now. As soon as the right job comes up, I am getting the hell out of here. Fortuantely, I can legally own an AR-15, and I have a legal CA CCW, so the laws aren't that bad for me. But I am sickened by the way our socialist state treats others.

[J Miller]

Why would anyone who cares about their personal liberties and freedoms continue living in states with these absurd laws (ie. CA, NY, MD, etc.)? You forgot IL. Despite the positive qualities of some of these states (scenic beauty, job market, etc.), I would never live in a state that denied me such fundamental freedoms, especially when other states respected my liberties. And I know, I know, you could only find a job there, your family lives there, it's where you grew up, you're in school there. But, these reasons just don't hold up to the restrictiveness of the laws.

I stay in IL because: I....don't....have....the....money....to....leave!
Does that answer your question? When the money becomes available me and mine will leave this place so fast we'll be in West Texas before IL knows were gone.

[gun-fucious]

i consider it a target rich environment
ya can't swing a cat without offending someone
and i do like tilting at windmills

[tiberius]

I grew up in Florida and currently live in Texas. These are both so called "gun friendly" states, but they too support unconstitutional firearms restrictions. Its just a matter of degree and I admire guys like Jim March who are really fighting for their rights in their homes which are supposed to be protected by the US Constitution.

[RANash]

Cowboy, you ask a very good question.

My answer can be summed up in one word--family. The relationship of family is more important than the partial restrictions on my freedoms. If those restrictions were greater, then the balance would shift and I'd escape, hopefully with as much of my family as possible. For now, the balance is tilted toward staying.

[litman252]

Another reason, some of us don't know how good/bad we have it.
Here in WI, no CCW (YET). We can have most any pistol/asault weapons any one else in this country can.

Good points to ponder, would love to be in the Rockies somewhere.

Tony

[shooten]

In a word, family. Also, I'm not about to give up and let those jerks win. I vote and I volunteer to try to make a difference around here.

Scott

[Standing Wolf]

I spent ten years in the People's Republic of California because I liked the weather and loved the beaches, plus I made good money doing work I was good at and enjoyed most of the time.

The loss of my civil rights, wanton crime, socialist insanity and corruption, and flood of illegal aliens compelled me to return to the United States a year and several months ago. My only regret is that I didn't come home years before I did.

[Bill Hook]

I stay in IL because: I....don't....have....the....money....to....leave!

Sometime staying in a Socialist Hellhole isn't that cheap either. IL had high property taxes, IIRC.

[dav]

Family, job, house, income level... they all factor in.

Especially because my wife doesn't want to leave.

But mostly, it is the reasonable (I think) assumption that if we let Kalifornia get away with it, then other states will follow.

Two states out of 50 that do not require a license to carry is not a good number. Sure some states are better than here. But unless you live in Alaska, don't brag too much about your state.

Tomorrow it could be you.

Help us win the war here in Kalifornia, it may just save your life.

[Skunkabilly]

There must be a hundred reasons why I should stay in California.






But right now...I can't think of one :D

(need a fulltime job out of state grumble grumble)

[Penforhire]

Don't discount the weather. Most people have no idea just how moderate southern CA's weather really is, along with sun, sun, and more sunshine. I can drive to snow in winter, just don't have to live in it. No salt on the roads means classis cars can be driven year-round. I never ever have to add gas stabilizer to my bikes to store them in the winter. SF gets colder and more rain than LA/SD but I'd still call the climate very moderate. I've lived without sunshine (Syracuse NY for three years) and I will never again go where the sun doesn't shine (much).

More reasons? Okay, the central states, and even interiors of some costal states, have really lame sushi. Or try getting good Mexican food in upstate NY, hah (but all the Italian you can eat).

The high-tech job is definitely part of it. I figure when I retire I can sell my over-priced house and live like a king elsewhere (preferably someplace without a state income tax like NV). There's high-tech jobs in most states but not the concentration we have in CA. You might say "what about NYC, Boston, or Portland?" but they're still down about an order-of-magnitude.

I can't legally carry but I can be well-armed at home. Yeah, I'd really really like to have an AR without a welded-box receiver but let's be honest, the 12 ga shotgun (and assorted handguns) is seriously enough for what ails you at home.

I ask the same question to my mom who lives in NYC. Why? I grew up there and escaped. For her it is family, familiarity, and the center of the universe as far as she is concerned.

I guess CA is pretty close to the center of my universe and I wouldn't give it all up "just" for a carry permit and better crime statistics.

[50 Freak]

The main reason I stay in Kali is Family. Plus this really isn't a bad state, I grew up here and can't see myself living anywhere else in the world. Plus I also already have a legal FAL, AR, AK and a CCW so gun laws/restrictions aren't that bad for me. Still doesn't mean I wouldn't want the abliltiy to buy Class 3 stuff or maybe a Barrett semi.

But I think that this state is very slowly starting to turn away from the anti agenda. I personally try to convert as many people as I possibly can and I vote. I've noticed that a decade ago: Kali, and NY were pretty much the most anti-states in the union. How many other states have been giving Kali and NY a run for their money now. So to me it doesn't matter if I stay in Kali or move to a more gun friendly state as they all are slowly turning anti-gun. Better to stay and fight then run in my book.

[FPrice]

"But, these reasons just don't hold up to the restrictiveness of the laws."

Maybe for you and your particular situation, but not everyone is going to make the same decision you seem to have made.

I came to Massachusetts 12 years ago for a job and I am ten months from retirement. I am not going to move and jeopordize that. In addition I have an elderly mother and a mother-in-law who we cannot leave behind.

The other reason is that by staying and working on 2A issues, I am trying to change the situation here. After I retire I plan to work with an FFL in his shop and possibly add an indoor range. By doing this and teaching a whole new generation of shooters I, along with many others, may be able to make some changes here. It's a long shot (pun intended), but if you run from the fight, you will never win.

[Beetle Bailey]

Since when is the solution to a problem to run away? I like living in California. I could understand it if you leave because you have no attachment to a particular place and you don't like the laws, but I'm not going to leave because someone thinks I can't be trusted with CCW, AR, AK, Thompson, FAL, etc. I'd rather stay and try to change people's minds.

[iamkris]

Family
Job (both my wife and mine...neither of our jobs are "portable", e.g., we're specialized corporate wonks rather than a cop, teacher, fireman, etc.)
House
Neighborhood / community
Schools

Plus I wouldn't have anything to fume an spit about if I lived in paradise.

[anapex]

For me I stay in MD because of my job, where I came from in PA if you didn't wanna work at McDonalds or a coal mine you had to move. It's just hard sometimes to get back to get out of an area once your settled. That and it's hard to find a job, house, etc in a decent area with decent laws.

[QuickDraw]

I,like others, stay because:
1.I was born here
2.My family is here
3. I have my own small business
My folks are in their early 70's,pretty healthy,but definately
slowing down.I would feel like a real turd moving away from
them now when they need someone around.
I'll be completely honest here.The RKBA issue is not the
be all,end all of my existance.Don't get me wrong,I do my
share of letter writing,voting,talking up the shooting sports.
I'm just not at the point where this one issue is enough to
make me pack up and leave.......yet!I'll stick around and
see if we can make some inroads in this large outdoor lunatic
asylum called California!

QuickDraw

[Lone_Gunman]

Now here's a great quote:

Since when is the solution to a problem to run away?

Come on Beetle Bailey, think hard for a minute....

Everyone who has ever immigrated to the US solved some problem by running away.

Our country was founded on the idea.

[Snake Eyes]

With apologies and acknowledgement to those who have made some of these points already (and David Letterman):

10--Apathy: The American Disease: Easier to complain than do something about it.

9--Comfort: We get set in a place. Perhaps we've been there all our lives. We know all the good restaurants, bars, hunting spots, which preacher we like, where to play golf and where to go flirt with the opposite sex. The thought of trying to re-establish all that and more in a new location strikes fear into many.

8--Aversion To Risk: Face it, most of us have families and it's a big risk to uproot them. What if the kids don’t like their new schools (and they won't--at least at first)? What if our spouses can't make any new friends like they had at home (and they won't, because it takes time to grow friends like that)? What if the housing sucks? What if the water is bad (Trust me, I moved from Seattle to Phoenix and water quality is a BIG issue)? What if.... a million things?

7--Rationalization: "No matter where I go there will be something that I don't like, don't think is fair, and makes me unhappy. Better to stay where I am and live with the issues I already know".

6--Loss of Friends: Any one that has moved away from home knows the loneliness of missing your friends. Those people are not easy to replace. The acquaintances you make in your new home won't fulfill the same role as the friends you knew for XX years for a long time. And while your old friends will still be your friends, talking on the phone and visiting in every year or two won't provide the same companionship.

5---Income: I often see posts along the lines of "If I could only earn the same income in (2A Heaven) as I earn in SoCal..." Frankly, I think this fits into No. 7--Rationalization. Most of those "2A Heaven" states have a more than proportionally lower costs of living to the lower incomes--so it's might even be a net gain. Furthermore, I have never met any one that couldn't get a job if they really wanted one, regardless of the economy. I have never been unemployed, except by choice, since the age of 14.

4--Geography: It matters. I live in Arizona--one of the most "pro" 2A states in the country. I can't stand the weather, I hate being land-locked, and I miss the rain of Seattle. I'd move to a less 2A friendly state in a heartbeat if it were cooler, greener and wetter.

3--Belief and willingness to participate in "The System": One of our THR members’ lives in California and posts often about his activism to change the status quo. Many of us still believe in a government of the people, by the people (forgive me if I have bunged the quote). We can run or we can fight. If it were a mugging, I bet most of us would fight. We should stay home and fight too--in our state local governments. This is truly a noble cause.

2--Family: What if the Governor of Illinois approached you and said "I'll change every gun/2A law in this state to exactly what YOU believe it should be and force every city and county government in the state to comply. All you have to do is let me execute one of your family members, with no repercussions whatsoever for said execution". What would you say? Of course you would refuse! So how can we ask people to move away from their families just to live in 2A friendlier states?

1--Being a Multi-Dimensional Human Being: We are not just gun owners and 2A advocates. "We" are surfers, bikers, mothers, students, artists, lawyers, doctors and bums. Some of us are Democrats, maybe even Socialists. Some of us are hunters while others have never shot anything but paper. Some only own guns they shoot, others buy guns they will never fire. I have never seen a thread on THR without at least one dissenting opinion. If we were truly the people the "enemy" makes us out to be, we would form a formidable coalition--dwarfing the NRA--and take over states. Not one state--several. And we would wield a mighty influence. But we are more than just the "Right Wing Second Amendment Fanatics” our adversaries’ claim--and thank The Almighty Lord. So we stay put in our homes and try to fight for the other passions in our lives--participating in the process our Founding Fathers intended, rather than abandoning whole communities to those that would ignore our rights.

I live in AZ, a very gun friendly state. I plan to move in mid-2004 and while gun rights are a consideration, they are not a deciding factor. I may move back to Washington, possibly Louisiana or Michigan. Possibly overseas, where I would have NO gun rights at all. I believe the experience of a new and different culture is worth the short-term trade off.

In closing, I understand many of the "Top Ten" overlap. However, I felt the items had merit both independently and jointly. My apologies if it is too redundant or pedantic.

Thank you for your time and attention,



Peter

[QuarterBoreGunner]

For all the reasons stated... this is my home.

Snake Eyes put it most exactly. Well done.

and this:

'Everyone who has ever immigrated to the US solved some problem by running away'

may have had meaning at one time, but there is no new frontier. We're out of room for the option of pioneering to a new land. We've used it all up. Time to take a stand and fix at least try and fix what's broke where you are.

Trust me when I say this: Do you REALLY want all the disgruntled Californians with their albeit reduced bank accounts moving into YOUR state?

Ask any one on the board from Seattle or Oregon and I think you'll have your answer.

[Ryder]

I don't think moving out of the state is running from the problem. I see it as a form of protest and probably a very effective one. A LOT of people are doing it. In these times of state's financial crisis that's gotta hurt em where it counts. I say give it to em while the giving is good. Leave them dangling for trampling citizen's rights. :fire:

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Competition among states is the basis of the republic. Even though the federal government has usurped authorities from the states, the states still have the latitude to steal or protect liberty. Running from one "socialist" state to a state which offers to protect your freedoms serves the purpose of the republic. There is still a large frontier in the mountain states which still respect freedom.

California has a great number of decent and hardworking people, but thay also have the large urban areas like LA and SF which saturate the voting numbers and turn it into a "blue" state. When there are no longer any tax-paying citizens, the state will be required to change to survive. California is no longer the bellweather state that it was. Nevada is being Kalifornicated, but there is a great deal of resistance.

I fled from PDRK due to the level of taxation and the decreasing quality of life...and most importantly, because every new law may make me a criminal.

[Dave R]

All I can say is, I'm glad people like Jim March have decided to remain in California and take the fight to them. The only chance for change is for enough people to decide to make a stand.

[James Bondrock]

Nevada is being Kalifornicated, but there is a great deal of resistance.

HEY!!! (I moved here two months ago after living in CA all my life.) ;) What resistance is this?

[MikeK]

So many people have made such good repliies (snake eyes in particular) that I can't add much.

I would love to move to another state, for reasons other / in addition to guns, but several of the aforementioned circumstances do not make it feasible at this time.

While I am in MD I will take the stance of gun-fucious and try to change the anti-gun environment whenever I can.

If I win the lottery it might change everything. Oh - I guess I need to buy some tickets.

[BluesBear]

Ask any one on the board from Seattle or Oregon and I think you'll have your answer.
Thank goodness we still have Oregon to cushion us. :neener:

Actually I wouldn't mind some decent 2A people from PRC moving up here.
All of the Golden State Immigrants I have met so far have either been Bleeding Heart Blissninnys or just Supersized Rectums.

I realize that all Californians aren't bad. It's just that 98% are giving the remaining 2% a bad name. :evil:

[Bill Hook]

Or try getting good Mexican food in upstate NY, hah

Wait a week and you'll have plenty of Mexicans up there, some starting restaurants.

What if the Governor of Illinois approached you and said "I'll change every gun/2A law in this state to exactly what YOU believe it should be and force every city and county government in the state to comply. All you have to do is let me execute one of your family members, with no repercussions whatsoever for said execution". What would you say?

Where's Uncle Phil?:evil:

[rayra]

(to original post)
Why stay in CA? Because I have significant family and business ties here. Because for all it's societal flaws, its geography encompasses an entire World of options and uses. Because the careers I've chosen / fallen into are lucrative here. Because there is a HUGE range of cultural events here.
Because I am NOT a single-issue Voter, or driven by single aspects of anything.
And lastly, many people have quoted this Robert Heinlein-ism, and I do so here as well -

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them
tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break
them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible
for everything I do." Professor Bernardo de la Paz

[morganm01]

You have to deal with some $#!^ to live here. And it's easy to complain. But it's pretty darn good all the same. There's some freaks out here, but there are some great people here as well. There is no Utopia. And the surf stinks in Arizona.

Even with the BS. I can still hunt, shoot, vote, and then catch some waves and watch the babes on the beach. Did Gray Davis send in Cruz Bustamecha to kick in my door and rape my family, chop my hands off and kill my kids because I voted to recall him, and encouraged others to do so as well?

No.

Am I a free man?

Yes.

[Beetle Bailey]

Lone_Gunman you are correct, but I still would rather try to change people's minds than just get up and leave. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel. And, as I said, I have other reasons to want to stay.

[Valkman]

Like James, I moved to NV just 2 months ago after 47 years in CA. I'm on Long Term Disability, have no kids and not much family anymore, so when I met a lady from Vegas and married her I moved here. It was still tough as all my friends are back in Kali as is all the good motorcycle roads. I put 31k miles in 2 years on my bike so it's a big deal to me to suddenly move to where there's almost nowhere to ride that isn't a straight road. I've tried to counter that by buying 4 guns in those 2 months (can't do that in Kali!) and got a whole reloading set-up. Since I can't ride I'll shoot!

Nevada is being Kalifornicated, but there is a great deal of resistance.

I don't know what that means either, but at least we have preemption so no new laws can be passed except at the state level. Las Vegas probably has the strictest laws in NV with handgun registration, but the CCW laws continue to get better from when they were passed.

[Nanook]

"I don't think moving out of the state is running from the problem. I see it as a form of protest and probably a very effective one. A LOT of people are doing it. In these times of state's financial crisis that's gotta hurt em where it counts. I say give it to em while the giving is good. Leave them dangling for trampling citizen's rights"

I agree with Ryder; sometimes the only things politicans understand is when the money disappears. I'm looking for a place even as we speak in Indiana. I'll still work in Illinois, but I don't wish to live in a place where I'm treated like a criminal, usually by a criminal, just for owing guns.
The extra drive to work will be a small price to pay.

[Sean Smith]

Well, I've been to California twice. Its two main virtues that I could discern are the weather and In-N-Out burgers. Double-double with well-done fries please! :D

[FPrice]

"Everyone who has ever immigrated to the US solved some problem by running away."

Only on a personnel level - they did NOT solve the problem they left behind.

And this is the point many of us are addressing. Leaving an anti-2A state may make our personal situation better but it does nothing to solve the problem you left in that state. Dedicated pro-gun rights people who stay and work to improve the laws are trying to correct the problem for others.

The issue of depriving an anti-2A state of your money is really a non-issue. Politicians, when faced with a lack of money caused by your departure will merely tax the remaining citizens that much more.

[tcsd1236]

New York State is not as bad as you make it out to be. Yes, the handgun permit system takes a while to wade through, but I dont choose to live here (aside from having been born here) based on the gun laws of the state..... the state has many fine qualities to it that I don't see in other states I go through. I'm staying.At least the state HAS a permit system where it is possible to get CCW, unlike OH and some other states I read about on the net ona regular basis....I only wish that as complex as the permit process is that they would build some reciprocity with other states permits into the system.....

Or try getting good Mexican food in upstate NY, hah (but all the Italian you can eat).

Define "good Mexican food"
I think we do pretty good here at times in any of the food categories.

[James Bondrock]

Well, I've been to California twice. Its two main virtues that I could discern are the weather and In-N-Out burgers.

Mmmm, In-N-Out Burgers! I was pleased to find them here, too. So I didn't really move that far. :)

[Brat7748]

Because I am 3rd generation to run the family business...but someday I am out of here for New Hampshire. While we do have some GREAT italian and some GREAT Steak places, they don't begin to make up for the high property, sales and income taxes, let alone the fees, rules, regs...and I am ashamed by our selection of US Senators

[Penforhire]

tcsd, sorry, I lived in Fayetteville, worked in Cazenovia, and travelled to Ithica and surrounding areas plenty (1992-1995). One good Mexican restaurant opened and shortly closed in Syracuse while I was there. Only a Taco Bell survived. Yeah, if I drove six hours to NYC I could find the best of any cuisine on the planet. The only food I miss from upstate NY was good haddock on fridays, available just about everywhere.

[Schuey2002]

Thank goodness we still have Oregon to cushion us.
Earlier this morning I charted a Greyhound bus and had it drive to Eugene; where it was then loaded full of anarchist, tree-huggin', pot-smokin', alien offspring of 60's Hippies from the University of Oregon..

It should be arriving at the Tacoma Greyhound Terminal by the time you read this.. Enjoy! :neener: :neener:

[Balog]

What if the Governor of Illinois approached you and said "I'll change every gun/2A law in this state to exactly what YOU believe it should be and force every city and county government in the state to comply. All you have to do is let me execute one of your family members, with no repercussions whatsoever for said execution".

Do I get to pick the family member?

[Brat7748]

Penforhire, did you ever try Casa -to-mucha in Utica? (New Hartford)

[Frank5]

I work in NJ (where the better jobs are) & live in PA (which is a gun friendly state). The commute sucks but hey................can't have everything.

[BluesBear]

It should be arriving at the Tacoma Greyhound Terminal by the time you read this.
I'll alert Starbucks so they can call in extra Barristas to handle the rush.:D

[4v50 Gary]

Why indeed?

B/C my retirement is good and I don't want to start a second career. I'd like to finish mine, get my 3% at 55 and pull out with something like 85% plus of what I'm making. 80% is the magic # you need to maintain your lifestyle.

Still trying to figure out which gun friendly state to move to. May keep the house in CA just for a winter place (Nov-Feb. without snow is nice).

[chaim]

While I'd like to get out of MD someday soon (and I still think I probably will), there are good reasons to stay and that make leaving harder.

-I was born here and almost all my personal history is here.

-Guns aren't the only issue in the world and MD isn't all bad. All 4 seasons (none that are too bad). Central MD is very urban with many job, educational, recreational, entertainment, and cultural opportunities. You are a two hour drive from the mountains and seclusion, you are near some farm country if you want a country drive, and you are two hours from the beach. There are lots of good fishing and boating opportunities (many rivers, Deep Creek Lake- a large man-made lake in western MD, the Cheasapeake Bay, the Atlantic Ocean).

-Family. My parents and my brother are here.

-Many close friends. I do have close friends who have moved but none have gone to particularly good gun areas (CA, NJ, France, and Israel).

-Networking. For finding jobs networking can be your most valuable asset and your personal network tends to be where you live (though the internet can help with that somewhat).

-There is a strong Jewish community in Baltimore. Orthodox Judaism is a very communal religion, to the point where it is virtually impossible to practice properly in seclusion. You need a minyan for many prayers, you need to have access to kosher food, you need access to a shetznes lab (you can't have mixes of linen and wool threads in any garment, even in the lining). Shabbos is very different, and loses quite a lot, alone. The largest communities in the US aren't in areas that are much better (NY, LA, Chicago). Miami is the only large community in a truly good area for guns. However, there are a few good smaller Jewish communities in better gun areas (Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Las Vegas, Memphis, Houston, Milwaulkee, St. Paul/Minneapolis), but none are nearly as strong as Baltimore.

-Moving out of state can be quite expensive.

-Finding a job in another state can be difficult and expensive.

-Moving before finding a job requires a fairly large amount of savings (and the willingness to risk needing to go through it all).

-If all conservatives, gun owners or moderates left the most liberal and anti-gun states it would be bad for the rest of the country. If you think those MD sends to office now are bad, just think who you'd get if only the far-left had a say here. Also, even in the most liberal states there are areas that are atypical and send conservatives to Congress. Would you really want all of MD's Representatives to be far-left Democrats and anti-gun?