Is there such a gun?


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JimLL
October 24, 2009, 03:23 PM
I like the James Bond gun (Walther PPK) a lot - the size, shape, weight, etc. But I'd never trust a .380 for self-defense. Does anyone make a "copy" of this in 9mm parabellum as opposed to 9mm short?

Thanks

JimLL

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jakk280rem
October 24, 2009, 03:33 PM
i believe there are 9mm blowback pistols similar in design to the walther pp/ppk. if you gotta have a real walther though, walther did make a pp in 9x18 ultra.

Billy Shears
October 24, 2009, 05:00 PM
The only 9mm blowback pistols of which I am aware are the Hi Point, which is about as concealable as a brick with pistol grip glued to it, and the old Astra 600, which is considerably more svelte, but still not what you'd call a small gun, and is notorious for needing considerable strength to rack the slide -- it takes a strong recoil spring and/or a heavy slide to make blowback a practical system with a high-pressure cartridge like the 9mm parabellum.

MMCSRET
October 24, 2009, 05:57 PM
Bond, in his early films carried a Walther PP in 7.65 MM Automatic.

9mmepiphany
October 24, 2009, 06:19 PM
a 9mm in size, shape and weight (he didn't say action) similar to the PPK, might be a Kahr PM9...maybe the MK9

zignal_zero
October 24, 2009, 06:22 PM
Billy Shears -

don't foget the Intratec DC-9 (or AB-10, depending on when it was made). but, once again, we're getting into something VERY far from a Walther LOL.

i really think it'd be tricky to find a Walther size/weight blowback handgun in 9mm. so, OP, no i don't think there is (or will be) such a gun :(

Mad Magyar
October 24, 2009, 06:22 PM
But I'd never trust a .380 for self-defense.
It would depend on who is handling it....:) To be frank, there are plenty of pistoleros that can't handle higher calibers....

9mmepiphany
October 24, 2009, 06:33 PM
...and it is also true that Bond's PPK was chamber in .32 ACP (according to the books) and was forced upon him to increase his stopping power over his preferred .25 ACP Beretta.

they actually replaced his Beretta with 2 guns. the Walther PPK for carry and a S&W Centennial in .38 spl as his heavy gun

Billy Shears
October 24, 2009, 08:35 PM
...and it is also true that Bond's PPK was chamber in .32 ACP (according to the books) and was forced upon him to increase his stopping power over his preferred .25 ACP Beretta.

they actually replaced his Beretta with 2 guns. the Walther PPK for carry and a S&W Centennial in .38 spl as his heavy gun
IIRC, he kept a Colt Police Positive under his pillow in the novel "Casino Royale," and a "long barreled Colt .45 revolver" (presumably a Colt New Service) under the dash of his Bentley.

Dr.Rob
October 24, 2009, 09:11 PM
He also carried newer Walthers in later films. No need to limit yourself to PPK sized pieces.

Kahr made a tiny nine, so did Colt, Kahr sued Colt and the Colt is no more.

9mmepiphany
October 24, 2009, 09:21 PM
He also carried newer Walthers in later films

he has been armed with the Walther P99

in later books, he used an ASP

TimM
October 24, 2009, 09:22 PM
What about the PPS?

DougDubya
October 24, 2009, 10:21 PM
Walther P99. If 9mm isn't enough, you can get it in .40 if you absolutely must.

Try the Walther P5. It's about the only single-stack, conventional 9mm DA auto STILL in production* - God bless Walther's heart. It's fatter than the PPK, as well as taller and longer, but it holds 9 9mm's, and it just looks even more gorgeous. It also was the premier Walther of the Summer of Two Bonds: Connery in Never Say Never Again and Moore in Octopussy. Tim Dalton also "borrowed" a P5 in License to Kill.


* the SIG Sauer P239 is the only other.

usp9
October 24, 2009, 10:33 PM
walther did make a pp in 9x18makarov

Walther never made a gun in 9mm Makarov. They did produce some in the 9mm Ultra or Police, but that is a different round than the makarov.

The closest thing to the PPK in a small 9mm may be the Rohrbaugh.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/45acp2go/R9S.jpg

6x6pinz
October 24, 2009, 10:41 PM
I to like the looks and feel of the PPK-PPK'S pistols. I have never come across a 9mm parabellum in that format. The 9x18 can be had in many different look-a-likes, ask me how I know:) I have a Kahr P9 which is close in size to the PPK but does not shoot anything like my Walthers.

Maybe the OP would like to clarify what features he likes.

bullturkey
October 24, 2009, 10:46 PM
Kel Tec PF9

wditto
October 24, 2009, 11:53 PM
I want a 1911 in .380

schiesz
October 25, 2009, 12:15 AM
1911 in .380? Get a Sig 238.

9mmepiphany
October 25, 2009, 12:48 AM
^^^
beat me to it :D

blue german
October 25, 2009, 01:52 AM
You asked " Is there such a gun?
I like the James Bond gun (Walther PPK) a lot - the size, shape, weight, etc. But I'd never trust a .380 for self-defense. Does anyone make a "copy" of this in 9mm parabellum as opposed to 9mm short?"

I carried one such pistol for years - even though few were made (less than 6600).

It's the Detonics Pocket Nine in 9mm Luger. The weight is about the same (it is a tad thicker), features the same DA/Sa blowback lockwork with an internal slide hold open.... even though it does not look EXACTLY like a PPK it really is a pure blowback 9mm para gun. It was designed by the Israeli Dr. Sirkis, it uses slightly modified S&W 39 mags (shortened with a new mag notch and follower). I found my gun to be accurate and reliable with the 112 gr Super-Vel softpoints and Canadian 9mm ball I fed it. Several times it shot into 2" at 25 meters.

It saved my life on any number of occasions.

As far as 9mm parabellum blowback pistols, here is a partial list:

H&K VP-70Z
Astra 600
Astra 800 Condor
Llama early XI
Intratec Cat-9
Lorcin m9
Bryco 9mm
Sardius SD-8
Clairidge S-9. L9 and T9

Several Assault Pistols in 9mm like
KG-99
MAC-10 & 11
AP-9

:cuss:
__________________________________________________________________
Beware of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors.....and Miss

Robert Heinlein The notebooks of Lazarus Long

Shadow 7D
October 25, 2009, 02:47 AM
There are a number of eastern european 9 mak pistols that are close to the Walther design, but then again I doubt they worried about patent infringement, nor were they nearly as small.

rondog
October 25, 2009, 02:53 AM
FEG PA-63 in 9x18 mak on top, Bersa Thunder .380 on bottom.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/pockets01.jpg

jakk280rem
October 25, 2009, 03:01 AM
Quote:
walther did make a pp in 9x18makarov

Walther never made a gun in 9mm Makarov. They did produce some in the 9mm Ultra or Police, but that is a different round than the makarov.

i stand corrected.

bigfatdave
October 25, 2009, 04:36 AM
Why not the PPS, again?

Echo9
October 25, 2009, 10:30 AM
...and it is also true that Bond's PPK was chamber in .32 ACP (according to the books) and was forced upon him to increase his stopping power over his preferred .25 ACP Beretta.

they actually replaced his Beretta with 2 guns. the Walther PPK for carry and a S&W Centennial in .38 spl as his heavy gun
I was pretty sure they made him take the .380 Walther over his Beretta -- I remember M saying something to the effect of ".380 is like throwing a brick through glass," or somethine like that. Maybe she was referring to low velocity?

Actaully, I believe it was a fan that wrote to Ian Flemming and told him that the Beretta was a woman's gun, and suggested the PPK.

searcher451
October 25, 2009, 11:33 AM
The Walther P5 and the P99 have been used by the character in recent films. Both are 9mm guns (you can get the P99 in .40 S&W) and superb pieces of fine German craftsmanship and engineering. Still, there's nothing quite like the PPK, and modern ammo has made the .380 ACP a decent self defense round, IMO.

Billy Shears
October 25, 2009, 11:35 AM
I was pretty sure they made him take the .380 Walther over his Beretta -- I remember M saying something to the effect of ".380 is like throwing a brick through glass," or somethine like that. Maybe she was referring to low velocity?

Actaully, I believe it was a fan that wrote to Ian Flemming and told him that the Beretta was a woman's gun, and suggested the PPK.
Echo9 is offline Report Post Quick reply to this message
It was Geoffrey Boothroyd, a firearms expert, who told him that (and Fleming named Q "Major Boothroyd" in thanks). And Bond's PPK was a .32 in both the novel and the movies. In "Dr. No" the "Armorer" (who was not yet called Q, and was not yet played by Desmond Llewellyn) gives him the Walther, saying "seven point six five mil, has a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window (which I've always thought a rather nonsensical statement). In the novel, Bond takes the PPK for his carry gun, and uses the Airweight when he needs a little more power. I believe that even in the movie, when Bond goes to Crab Key, you can see him carrying and shooting an S&W snubbie, though they never mention it in any of the dialogue.

usp9
October 25, 2009, 12:10 PM
I believe that even in the movie, when Bond goes to Crab Key, you can see him carrying and shooting an S&W snubbie, though they never mention it in any of the dialogue.

He also uses a Browning 1910 with a suppressor in the movie...where that came from is any guess. :scrutiny:

Billy Shears
October 25, 2009, 12:21 PM
He also uses a Browning 1910 with a suppressor in the movie...where that came from is any guess.
Why, the prop department, of course. :D

My guess is that they simply didn't have a PPK that was fitted for a suppressor and would work with the blanks that they had available, and were hoping no one would notice.

I suspect the prop master wasn't too gun savvy either, since Bond tells the villain, just before he shoots him "Sorry professor, that was a Smith & Wesson, and you've had your six." And I swear the bad guy's gun looked like a 1911 to me.

Dangerman009
October 25, 2009, 01:51 PM
In many of the scenes in Dr. No the Walther PP is substituted for the PPK. An oversight by the filmmakers. And yes, Professor Dent did use a suppressed 1911 as did the Three Blind Mice. Check THIS LINK (http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Dr._No).

9mmepiphany
October 25, 2009, 02:03 PM
the standard chambering of the PPK has always been 7.65mm (.32 ACP) in Europe, the .380 (9x17mm) is pretty much an American affection.

the original Walther PP was introduced for LE belt carry in .32. the chambering was retained for the PPK when it was introduced for detectives.

during the police trials, after the 1972 Munich incident...which brought us the Walther P5, Sig P6 and H&K P7....they upgraded from .32 to 9x19mm

9mmepiphany
October 25, 2009, 02:18 PM
Why not the PPS, again?

...because it has none of the grace that defined the steel Walthers

Billy Shears
October 25, 2009, 03:20 PM
the standard chambering of the PPK has always been 7.65mm (.32 ACP) in Europe, the .380 (9x17mm) is pretty much an American affection.
Even here, the preference for .380 over .32 is a relatively recent phenomenon. Remember that the vast majority of the old Colt and Savage pocket autos from the pre-WWII era were .32s. Only the Remington Model 51 was made in greater numbers in .380.

makarovnik
October 25, 2009, 07:40 PM
Yup.

bigfatdave
October 25, 2009, 11:07 PM
because it has none of the grace that defined the steel Walthers
Is the goal to have a pretty safe queen, or a CC pistol?

Prosser
October 25, 2009, 11:26 PM
I went through this, about 1978. I bought a Walther PPK/S, since, IIRC, the PPK
wasn't around for some reason.

HEAVY little gun, with anemic cartridge, super heavy DA trigger, and generally inaccurate. Sold it, and bought a Detonics CombatMaster Mark VI, well two of them, and, a Mk VII.

5 oz heavier, they were, and are, super accurate, and, capable of shooting .451 Detonics, or, .45 Super level loads for hundreds of thousands of rounds.
About the same size.

Bond's gun choices are done by people that know very little about firearms, or,
have a contract with Walther.

9mmepiphany
October 26, 2009, 12:35 AM
Is the goal to have a pretty safe queen, or a CC pistol?

i have ugly safe queens...believe the Mauser C96 isn't a pretty gun

...and have carried very nicely blued Colt Python and S&W M-27

...but if you want something like the Walther PPK...i don't think the PPS is the first gun that pops into my mind

it's like wanting a gun like a 1911 and having someone suggest a Glock...although each holds the same place for their respective times

bowfita
October 26, 2009, 12:02 PM
But I'd never trust a .380 for self-defense

The new Hornady Critical Defense round tested over 10" of penetration through heavy clothing out of a Ruger LCP. You won't get the wound channel of a .45, but my LCP only weights 11 oz full.

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=786

MCgunner
October 26, 2009, 12:30 PM
The only 9mm blowback pistols of which I am aware are the Hi Point, which is about as concealable as a brick with pistol grip glued to it,

...and almost as pretty....:barf:

The main question on this board, though, is...is the 9x19 enough for bears in Alaska?

:D

There is no blowback 9 capable of being shrunk to .380 size, that's why .380 exists in the first place! All the little Rohrbaughs and Kahrs and Kel Tecs are locked breach guns and IMHO none of 'em captures "the look" of the PPK.

Now, in 9x19, a little larger, but the S&W 3913NL is one SEXY lookin' handgun. I actually like its looks better than the PPK. I don't have one, sorta like I don't have a Carrie Prejean, just an admirer. :D

MCgunner
October 26, 2009, 12:39 PM
Here's a pic of the Smith I found by googling...Yummmmm.....

http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo1/neal1911/3913004.jpg

Billy Shears
October 27, 2009, 07:47 PM
There is no blowback 9 capable of being shrunk to .380 size, that's why .380 exists in the first place! All the little Rohrbaughs and Kahrs and Kel Tecs are locked breach guns and IMHO none of 'em captures "the look" of the PPK.
I've always thought that a Remington Model 51 would be a great gun to scale up to 9mm, and it really would look at least somewhat like a PP, if not a PPK.

But technically, I'm not sure it's feasible in 9mm parabellum, because of the 9mm's slightly tapered case. The Remington used a rather odd system, that was neither a true locked breech, nor really a delayed blowback. The barrel was fixed to the frame, and the slide had a separate breech block. Upon firing, the slide and breech block recoiled together for a distance equal to the thickness of a cartridge case rim. Then the breech block was held by a notch in the frame, and the slide continued rearward for some distance until it cammed the breech block upward, lifting it out of that notch in the frame. Then the slide and breech block continued rearward until the recoil spring sent them both back forward again. Since the .380 and the .32 are straight sided cartridges, there was still a gas seal even after the cartridge travelled that very short distance to the rear, and stopped when the breech block engaged that notch in the frame, then chamber pressure would drop to a safe level before the breech block was unlocked, and the cartridge was extracted. Since the 9mm parabellum is a tapered case, there would be no gas seal if it moved backward in the chamber even the distance of the case rim.

However, the system worked with the .45 ACP, and there is one prototype of the gun in that caliber in the Remington museum. What I wouldn't give to see them put it in production. It'll never happen though. It would be too expensive to make, and there's too little market for single-stack, single actions -- and what market there is is saturated by the 1911.

woad_yurt
October 27, 2009, 09:16 PM
I second the PA-63. It's a good, light, reliable carry gun. It weighs almost exactly the same as a PPK but shoots 9X18, which stomps a .380. For carry, I use the very affordable Fiocchi FMJ (267 ft lbs) in mine.

Be sure to swap to Wolff springs, though, or you probably won't like it. The stock DA pull is murder.

MICHAEL T
October 27, 2009, 11:56 PM
.380 is like throwing a brick

That was said of the 32acp Bond never carried a 380 in the books. or movies
A 380 with today's HP is a good pistol The 380 ball left a lot to be desired as it over penetrated .I carried a PPK/S for a long time with Corbon 90gr JHP Today I carry now and then with Corbon DPX round .

woad_yurt
October 28, 2009, 12:08 AM
.380 is like throwing a brick

Really.

.380, in most pistols, is a very easily controllable round. .380 FMJ in the right hands is a dangerous thing. I don't know about the hollowpoints, though. I think hollowpoints need a bit more oomph to really perform well. As it is, cheap .380 is right next to cheap .38 SPL, energy-wise. It'll mess one up.

gyvel
October 28, 2009, 09:26 AM
And your best bet for a small, concealable .380 with no hammer, sights or sharp contours to snag on your pocket is the Browning 1910.

silversport
October 28, 2009, 06:01 PM
'course they almost always beat just pointing your finger and yelling bang!...:D
Bill

Girodin
October 29, 2009, 06:53 PM
FEG PA-63 has the look and is in a slightly more substantial round. It comes with a trigger pull from hell though. People ahve reported improving it by swapping springs and polishing. I cannot attest to the degree to which it the trigger can be improved, only that it is HEAVY as is.

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