357's out of a rifle; tip question


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twoblink
November 4, 2003, 10:17 PM
Was discussing with a buddy..

If you have a 357Rifle (say a Marlin 1894) and you wanted to use it as a coyot' gun, what kind of tip would be most effective? Wadcutters? Buddy seemed to think so.

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Jim K
November 4, 2003, 11:03 PM
Wadcutters can be pretty effective at short range because they cause rapid bleeding. Unfortunately, they are not very accurate over about 50 yards, and maybe not even that if fired at a higher velocity than that normally used in target pistol shooting. (And almost anything is higher velocity than that!)

I think I would go with a standard type hollow point.

Actually, while .357 and .44 Magnum are hot stuff in pistols, they are pretty poor rifle cartridges, so unless there are other factors, a true rifle round might be a better choice.

Jim

twoblink
November 5, 2003, 12:57 AM
How is it not a good rifle round?

(From Winchester's website)

Ballistically:
158Grainer soft point from a rifle:
Velocity (fps) 1830
Energy (ft. lbs.) 1175

I worry about the flight stability of wads and semi-wads though.. Also, do wads actually expand?? or just cut a hole? Good sectional density right?

444
November 5, 2003, 01:45 AM
Here is some actual chrono data I got from my 18.5" Marlin 1894C: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45283&highlight=chrono Note that in the load using Lil Gun powder, I gained 580 fps out of the carbine vs. a 4" barreled handgun. This load would work great for coyotes: 158 grain HP at 1843 fps.

For coyotes I would probably go with a 125 grain hollow point loaded with a max charge of H110.
Out of a handgun, I use 110 grain HPs loaded with a max charge of Blue Dot. I think this load would be too much out of the carbine. I have never chronoed this load out of a carbine but I would imagine that you could easily get 2200 or more fps. I think the bullet would probably just explode on impact giving you very little penetration, but this is all speculation.

I think the .357 Carbine makes a dandy coyote weapon providing you are calling. It doesn't have the range needed for spotlighting. I have taken a number of coyotes with various handguns; mostly with the .45 ACP. The .357 out of a carbine offers much more performance.

twoblink
November 5, 2003, 03:09 AM
444,
The numbers you posted are of great help.. The basically confirm what's listed on Winchester's website.. And confirm my reasons for wanting a 357Rifle...

The 9mm results were disappointing though..

What you've also done is confirmed for me, that handloading (and thus selecting your own burnate of powder) will make a huge difference.. Slower in the long tubes get an incredible gain.. Thanks for the link and data..

Why THR is superior over gun rags anyday..

JA
November 5, 2003, 07:18 AM
Remington 125gr hollow point/18.5grs WW-296 I get 2460fps out of a Marlin 1894CS. This should be a good load as it gave coke can accuracy at 100 yds.

Kentucky Rifle
November 5, 2003, 11:21 AM
Gonna try .357 RBCD. 50 grain bullet leaving the barrel at 3000 FPS. Just talking to Jeff OTMG and we think this looks a lot like .223 ballistics. (Maybe not the range though.)
Help me out here, Jeff.

KR

Jim K
November 5, 2003, 04:12 PM
Hi, guys,

If one is going to go to the trouble of carrying a rifle around, why shoot a pistol cartridge in it? This is not 1873, and the advantage of using the same round in rifle and pistol is vastly overrated when one is seldom far from the pickup truck.

Don't compare .357 from a rifle with .357 from a revolver; compare .357 from a rifle with .30-'06 or .308 or .35 Whelen from a rifle. I stand by what I said.

Jim

444
November 5, 2003, 04:34 PM
Well obviously you arn't going to compare a .357 to a .30-06, but, you don't need a .30-06 to take down a coyote. If you want to start comparing like that I might as well take the biggest rifle I have, since I am going to all the trouble of carrying a rifle to begin with; I am sure the .338 Win Mag will knock down a coyote.
I own a whole pile of rifles in various calibers. I use different ones for different purposes. Sometimes I use one just because that is the one I want to use with no logical argument behind the decision. In this case, the .357 is more than enough rifle for the game hunted, why should I carry more ? By the same token I have taken out much bigger rifles in search of coyotes just because I felt like it. I called in and shot a couple coyotes with a .444 Marlin. I have shot coyotes with a .25-06. I didn't need that kind of power, but that day it suited my fancy.
Why buy a .357 carbine at all ? Well, it is fun to shoot. I already handload in massive quantities for that cartridge; I buy the brass, bullets, and powders in quantity, I have a pregressive loader set up to load that cartridge. And, for me, the idea of having a carbine and a handgun in the same caliber makes plenty of sense. I take trips out into the back country of Nevada and carry a gun. I like to only have to take one cartridge. I like to be able to have a belt with cartridge loops that I can use with either gun.
I wouldn't hesitate to use a .357 carbine on deer for that matter. It is plenty of gun for deer.

bogie
November 5, 2003, 06:32 PM
Hornady makes two different 125 gr. XTP hollowpoints - one designed for .38 velocities, and one for .357 velocities.

I'd go with the .38 version - it does UNREAL things to oranges.

RustyHammer
November 5, 2003, 06:41 PM
I love my .357 lever guns and wouldn't part with any of them.

Extremely accurate, mild recoil and enough power for many tasks.

Lots of cartridge choices and being able to share a box of ammo (with a revolver) is a nice perk.

Bottom-line: Highly recommended on both the reliability and fun factor scales.

/Rusty

citizen
November 5, 2003, 07:16 PM
Hey, 444-

I'll e-mail ya.......

twoblink
November 5, 2003, 08:20 PM
Jim...

You've got it all wrong. I've got a 308 for "rifle" work..

The .357Mag is a.. I've got a revolver on my hip when I'm trailing, might as well carry a rifle while I'm trailing which uses the same ammo. (Cowboy Logistics TM)

Also, a 5lb rifle with the same round as your revolver sounds a bit better trailing than a 10lb rifle which requires other magazines and rounds, and don't even start on the weight issue of 30-06 vs 357...

Jeff OTMG
November 5, 2003, 09:35 PM
The RBCD would work great for short range as a home defense gun with the blistering velocites, but the light weight bullets lose velocity rapidly. At distance a heavier slug would be the order of the day. If you get the accuracy there is nothing wrong with a 158 gr LSWC out to 100 yards on something the size of a coyote.

Dr.Rob
November 6, 2003, 06:08 AM
I'd use a soft point over a hollow point when upping the velocity past 1800, you don't want to create bullet that breaks up too quickly, leading to an inhumane kill.

the 357 has available 158 and 180 gr bullets that are jacketed soft points.

If you are shooting coyotes or larger deer, I'd stick with the 180 gr bullets, provided they fed well in your levergun.

444
November 6, 2003, 09:14 AM
I can see using a softpoint in one of the lighter bullets that you are really pushing to the limit out of the carbine. As I mentioned, I think the 110 grain HP out of a carbine might be too much. I feel pretty certain that the bullet would come appart upon impact. The same might be true of the 125s, I have never tried them, but you could also really push them fast. However I think that using 180 grain bullets on a coyote is going a little too far unless you are polishing your skills with your big game load out of the carbine. Keep in mind that a coyote is like a 30 pound animal; it doesn't take some kind of cannon. I think you could easily get by using the 158 grain bullets in an HP configuration, and I know you could use the 180s in an HP if you wanted to. As I mentioned, I think I would try the 125s as a dedicated coyote load. As long as you got a few inches of penetration before the bullet came apart (if it came apart) I think you would be good. A 125 grain JSP would certainly be the ticket

A couple comparisons with the .357 from a carbine.
An LBT WFN bullet in .357 has the same size meplat as a Keith Bullet in .44 caliber.
A .30 Carbine of GI fame shoots a 110 grain bullet at about 2000-2100 fps.
A .357 Carbine can fire a larger diameter, 125 grain bullet at the same velocity easily. A .357 handgun can fire a 110 grain bullet at 2000 fps using loads right out of the manual; this load should easily go 200 or more fps faster out of a carbine.
A .30-30 fires a 150 grain bullet at about 2400 fps (pushing it pretty good), a .357 fires a larger diameter 158 grain bullet at about 1840 fps.
A .30-30 fires a 170 grain bullet at about 2100 fps. A .357 Carbine fires a larger diameter 180 grain bullet at about 1650 fps.

So we see that the .357 out of a carbine is significantly "more powerful" than a .30 Carbine, but less than a .30-30 Win, but not by a whole lot.

MrAcheson
November 6, 2003, 11:10 AM
Twoblink,

One other concern, some leverguns don't cycle wadcutters and semi-wadcutters too well. The '92 can have trouble with them because of the angled feed ramp IIRC.

Deadman
November 6, 2003, 07:08 PM
some leverguns don't cycle wadcutters and semi-wadcutters too well

Yeah, the Marlin 1894CP manual states not to use wadcutters. Semi-wadcutters should work just fine.

Grump
November 6, 2003, 07:54 PM
Semiwadcutters fly better beyond 50 yards, too (though I hit the felon silhouette at 100 yards with full wadcutters, 4 out of 6 shots, with great regularity using a 4-inch .38 revolver--hold 14" high!).

twoblink
November 6, 2003, 09:15 PM
I'm looking to get a Timberwolf 357Mag Pump Rifle. Anybody know how well they like wadcutters?

Semi-wads should be fine though..

Kentucky Rifle
November 7, 2003, 12:24 PM
I've got a fairly new Marlin 1894C. As you probably know, it has an 18.5 inch barrel. There's a gun shop about 5 minutes from here that has a new 1894CP on the wall. (16 inch barrel.) I don't care for the ports, but a Marlin lever gun with a 16 inch barrel would make a great truck rifle. (Yes, I'd bring it in at night.)
Hey, anybody know if those "Easy Rider" rifle racks are still legal? Kentucky has a "tailgating" problem. I'm a fairly slow driver--'bout 5 MPH over the speed limit. Seems to me that a rifle rack in the back window of my truck would cause tailgaters to back off a little.:uhoh:

KR

waynzwld
November 7, 2003, 03:07 PM
I have used the semi wadcutters with no problem in the Timberwolf, but have not tried wadcutters, yet. So far, the Timberwolf is real picky on length more than anything else. I will load up some wadcutters and give them a try and let you know.

Oleg Volk
November 7, 2003, 04:07 PM
Seems to me that a rifle rack in the back window of my truck would cause tailgaters to back off a little.

Get a cheap airsoft for that - no need to expose a real weapon as people behind you won't see any difference.

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