A practical, and, carryable hand rifle?

[P95Carry]

Pistol ammo is both low on the power range and generally not over long .... all helps to keep the gun's size, weight and length down.... so more compact, and more concealable etc. ''What we are used to''.

But .. and ignore here the ''specialist'' hand rifles .. Contender etc ..... now we have the short magnum rounds coming along .... does it seem at all possible we might see a new handgun round based more on these proportions? Even if downsized and down-powered some.

If ya like .... a CZ-52/Sig .357 ....... but way more potent?! Imagine the 7.62 x 25 (0.390 dia case) .. but fatter by, what? ..... say 30% ... to give something like close to 0.5".... not so much ''fatter'' than the .45 acp. never been much into WildCat loads and always the prob .. what gun to use for development.

OK, chamber strength must go up ... = weight. Recoil too will rise obviously, tho extra weight helps that ... but as we keep discussing ... the handgun is only a ''just enough'', if that, when compared to the usefulness of a rifle cal and power. It is ''any port in a storm''.

So ... a 30 cal bullet (say - and JHP) ... perhaps around 100 grain .... in front of a CZ-52 case dia of +30% .... could see us pushing out that said bullet at, what? Over 2,000 I'd reckon.

Would this be unmanagable for a large frame gun, and shooter .. true - on heavier side but ... maybe not much more than a std 1911? It sure as hell would seem like a potential ''stopper'' to me!!

Or have I just been very unobservant and thick ... and this already exists!!

Anyways ... just pondering, as ever!

:rolleyes:

[bquinlan]

I don't know of any rounds that match your description, but I think there are already rounds available that can perform the functions you want. Take a long hard look at the high-end handgun calibers. The .357 Maximum isn't actually too far off of your specs. The .44 Magnum, .480 Ruger, .454 Casull, and .500 S&W throw heavier bullets than you're talking about, but they offer the kind of high-end stopping power you want and some loadings can reach out beyond 250 meters.

I guess I'm not sure what you want that you can't already get with the right combination of revolver and load.

My personal choice for a "holster rifle" is the Taurus Raging Bull in .44 Magnum fitted with a Burris 2-7x scope. That massive frame, compensated barrel, and specialty grip soak up an amazing amount of recoil, making full-power magnum rounds pleasant to shoot. If I might run into Grizzly Bears I load it with Garrett (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp) +P rounds that generate 1400 ft/lbs. I'm not sure I want to shoot anything with more kick than that. :eek:

--Bob Q

[Cal4D4]

Just a guess, but I suspect you run out of barrel before you run out of powder. How's case capacity vs barrel of the .30 Carbine, .32-20, or even the 7.62 x 25?

added: There are some semi legit .30 caliber wildcat rounds based on 10mm cases that should be able to handle 40Kpsi in G20 with little more than a barrel change, but I don't know if it can handle 100gr length bullets.

[P95Carry]

Tube length is - always will be ... the major prob. Agreed on the big cals .. no argument there. But, in short tubes and with smaller cal bullets, it should be possible to ''push the envelope'' such that a fastish powder can be safely burned sufficient to achieve the velocity. I'm thinking ''small and fast'' combination.

Reason for the pondering was as to whether we could achieve a smaller cal bullet at something approaching rifle velocities .... purely so as to have a very much more destructive effect. Guaranteed expansion, perhaps like a small Nosler Ballistic Tip. Then of course we will probably be onto the ''over-penetration'' deal!

It is just that ... ''wondering'' .. thinkin out loud!

[Black Snowman]

How about .44 Mag necked down to .30 Cal in a BFR? Slap a nice long barrel on it and have a pretty mean six shot.

Overall sounds a lot like the concept behind the .224 BOZ (http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/boz224.html) which is a 10mm necked down to take .22 caliber bullets. Althought it's primary purpose was to pierce body armor. With a balistic tip it could be a good animal stopper.

[Cal4D4]

I think the Boz is out, at least in Kali, for civvie use. A little too good at penetration and steel core bullets a little too available.

[Kaylee]

What if.... you put the chamber back behind the grip, and used drop-in cylinders or a P-90 style top-mounted magazine? I could see you getting a self-loading pistol about the size of an XP-100 and still keeping a 10-12" barrel. Beef up the recoil systems, and I could you chambering rifle rounds in it. :)

[AJ Dual]

What Kaylee said.

The Bushmaster Armpistol was an example.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/armpistol/bushmaster_rightside_mag_web.jpg

Perhaps we'll see renewd production after the '94 ban sunsets next year.

[Drjones]

:cool: :cool:

I want one of these!!!

http://www.usualsuspect.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33094

[Kaylee]

Well then Dr. Jones, you need to PM our very own WildAlaska.. he built that Mare's Leg. :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47258

[mtnbkr]

You need the 356GNR. It's a wildcat developed by Paco Kelly (www.leverguns.com or is it .org, can't recall). It's a 41mag necked down to 357mag. Uses 357mag bullets obviously. Works real well with slow powders like H110.

The Article (http://home.mindspring.com/~mtnbkr/356gnr.html)

Chris

[P95Carry]

Thx a lot for that Chris .... exactly my desired direction of thinking .... knew there had to be something out there!! Not real clued up on the WildCat scene.

I have linked thru to the http://www.reedercustomguns.com/ site and will do some browsing .. it has got me to thinking!! :evil: :p

It was poopin off with the CZ-52 at our shoot that set off the thought process!!:)

[Dr.Rob]

The only BAD thing about the 357 maximum is that its a high velocity and high pressure load (158gr bullet at 1800 fps).

Even in stoutly made dan Wesson and Ruger revolvers, flame cutting of the frame occurs (which also stops at a certain point). I'd imagine in a bolt acton or semi auto you'd be looking at throat erosion more akin to a high powered rifle. So, you want a tougher steel for the chamber/Barrel.

Funny, you realize the AK action (some few hundred were imported as 'pistols') would be a great basis for a hot loaded handrifle. Imagine a handgun ala x-p 100 where the hand sits in the middle of the balance point, a stout 4 shot magazine full of 7.62x54R (if we used a dragunov reciever as the basis). The long bolt/piston would certainly cut down recoil, though the action doesn't really lend it self to pin-point accuracy. Would look a LOT like the Bushmaster pistol.

Anyway, the 357 max, is efectively a 'dead' caliber. It's hard to find brass, loaded ammunition takes a lot of looking.

I would not HESTITATE to use a 357 max on deer or even elk. The DanWesson 8 inch models are still almost handy enough to wear as a "belt' gun, instead of a heavy cross draw rig like you'd pack a contender or scoped handgun. Reloading is a breeze.

[George Hill]

AMT Automag in .30 Carbine does very well... when they don't jam... :uhoh:

[Gabe]

I think there are laws against armor busting pistol ammo, you might not want to go there.

I say bring back the shoulder stocked revolvers. The shoulder stock should be detachable and double as the holster with a holder for speedloaders, Surefire, and a slot for the scope when its not needed.

A 44 magnum and 8 inches of barrel + Crimson Tracer Grips should do it. Tactical enough for ya? :D

http://www.emf-company.com/images3/1860-army-with-stock-2.jpg

[Dr.Rob]

Ah but Gabe that would be an SBR.. by modern laws. Your 8 shot 44 mag SW revolver with a SHOULDER stock is in effect handled the same way machine guns, silencers and sawed off shotguns are handled. meaning, a tax stamp, a lot of paperwork, and fingerprinting etc.

There was a WHOLE lot of hooplah over the Contender being chambered in .410, or even having a carbine version available, as a rifle stock on a hand gun = a no-no.
'
Not that any gang-banger is going to hold up a liquor store with a .410 contender, or do a drive by with a single shot 280 Ackly improved.

Black powder guns have no such restrictions, they do however fail to make enough "power" to take game via most DOW guide lines.

Then again, maybe a Walker Colt... with a 180 gr bullet and a 60 grain charge of powder...

They wouldn't let you use it in black powder season (they don't allow double barreled rifles) but I'd bet you could kill a deer with a Colt walker. Still you are talking about a FIVE pound handgun.

[mtnbkr]

P95,

Did you see this page (http://www.reedercustomguns.com/information/GNR_cartridges.htm)? I thought Paco developed teh 356, it looks like Gary Reeder did instead. Either way, it looks like a neat cartridge. When I first heard about it, I contacted Reeder about converting my GP100. He said he would, but I had to come up with a blank cylinder so he could make a 5shot out of it. I never pursued it past that point.

Chris

[P95Carry]

Thx Chris yeah .... came across that page. Some selection eh too. Love that sorta stuff but .... guess in the end it's all just too much hassle!

If I was younger, maybe I'd get into it all.:evil:

[Jeeper]

Gary Reeder is a great guy. He does fantastic work and really stands behind everything he does. He is also ranked 3rd in the world by the safari club for handgun hunting trophies. So needless to say he knows his sh$$

[Gabe]

Dr.Rob,

That is most unfortuante. But here's something you might like; Boba Fett's "rifle" from Empire Strikes Back


http://home.insightbb.com/~ferguson188/images/boba.jpg

[benEzra]

What about the 3800 Casull? (If I remember the name right.) Seems like it was a .355 or .357 bullet going very fast, and there is (or was) a 1911 chambered for it.

[Edward429451]

I got the 300g 44's doing 1400 from my 7.5" RH...If I tried I could prolly get the 180's to break 2000. Lyman does sell a 200g pointed 44 mould. With the right mixture and possibly a little heat treating, it could easily punch through kevlar.

[P95Carry]

Hey!I got the 300g 44's doing 1400 from my 7.5" RH... Remind me what 'fuel' (and charge weight) you are using to shove those puppies??!:)

[Cal4D4]

My nickle is on H110 and cast bullets.

[Stevie-Ray]

My bet's 2400.

[ikd2]

I would also like to see more bottlenecked cartridges for handguns. I would like to see a 454/30cal. for a deer/bear hunting gun, or a .429/30cal. or how about a .500sw/30cal. Also please don't make it a propriatary cartridge. I would have each of these using standard rifle bullets 1:7 rifling in a 7.5" Ruger SRH. I dunno what specific benefit any of these would have over anything that is available now but I would want 1 of each.