[Uncle Mike]

Just a quick question.... being in the firearms trade for as long as I care to remember I have been fortunate to be able to rub shoulders with various manufacturers engineers, competitors and the like, often soaking up every bit of knowledge offered.

But My muzzleloading prowess is limited to what the manufacturers have schooled us on. Real world knowledge is, in my opinion...limited.

I have several muzzleoders, rifles and a couple pistols...I have been...'out of the loop' as far as rifles are concerned, I don't work that area with the customers and we don't exactly do a knockdown business with coal burners.

Question.... I would like to get a rifle for myself, accuracy is the priority, I have been reading up on the Bergar (spelling?) barrels, different twists, lengths, rifling, gain twist stuff ect... Are the Green Mountain barrels good?

Looking at the Savage ML-10, I like the smokeless powder thing....any comments on this set up? Pros....cons?

Knight Rolling Block, White Modern in-lines, TC Omega, CVA Optima...

I need your schooling on what rifle to acquire...Must be a 209 primer ignition, in-line or break barrel or rolling block type action. Your reasoning behind your decision, please.

Also need any knowledge you can part with concerning loads, method of operation, neat tricks, bullets, lubes, sabots and such to wring out the utmost accuracy. Did I say it HAD to be an accurate rifle...

All I know is I load my TC Grey Hawk with 90g of 2F under a 625g? TC Maxi and Ruger Old Army with 40g of 3F under a Buffalo Bullet with wad... and pigs be damned!

Please help the less fortunate...those of us who are under *edumacated* in this art!:what: hehehehe

Thanx-

[arcticap]

Every rifle model has something to offer and comes with its own pros and cons.

Volumes of reviews have been written about each model and gun writers make their living sampling and writing about them. Then there's the professional staff hunters that are hired by manufacturers for testing purposes under actual field conditions. Where's the objectivity when any reviewer's experience is limited to what they've owned, done limited testing with or read about?

Then there are also semi-custom inline models that cost upwards of $2000 and inline actions that can be used to build a specialty custom barreled rifle, and even after market smokeless muzzle loading barrels. What type of projectiles and game are intended for its use and final cost are usually always a consideration for the buyer.

White & Knight basically went out of business & production. White might be looking to get back in business by making some parts, and Knight is supplying parts and service and maybe looking for new owners. Whites are known to shoot conical bullets well, but 209 conversions aren't their strong suit.
Some Knight breechplugs haven't been perfected enough to reliably shoot the new Black Horn 209 powder that may be the cleanest and most accurate substitute powder made.
The Savage may be the most accurate sabot shooter with smokeless powder but not without having other issues of its own. They don't need to be cleaned but once a year, but forget about shooting conicals, and Ballistic bridge sub-bases might be needed to obtain the best accuracy. What if the Savage was the most accurate rifle on paper, can everyone hold and shoot it offhand as accurately as another model? Is it more ergonomic, as pleasing to shoot and as satisfying to shoulder and to hunt with than any other company's model is to you?
At what distance and field conditions are we talking about hunting or shooting at?
If a person sets accuracy as the top priority, then aren't there other factors important too and why or why not?
Is the buyer hunting at 250 yards or he is hunting in the woods?
TC's are probably regarded as some of the most accurate factory production guns. But they also have many model variations with different features and ergonomics.
How much better do they shoot on average for the additional money spent? Maybe 1-3 inches at 100 yards?
Do they hold better or have better triggers or other features?
Maybe they do, but their barrel spec's are known to be tight and can be a little more difficult loading. I believe that the TC Triumph is one of the most accurate muzzle loaders right out of the box for shooting the widest variety of saboted bullets. But everyone has their bias and opinions are cheap. Some say that the TC Omega is just as good but may be slightly more finicky to tune in.

There are infinite variables when it comes to muzzle loading. Powder types, bullet types, ignition types, action types, breechplug types, stock materials, barrel & stock configurations, trigger adjustability and yada, yada, yada.
The Bergara barrels are great, as most every barrel is for the money.
Are Green Mountain barrels better? Maybe they are on some guns and for shooting some projectiles verses shooting others.
Doesn't every company make some lemons?
At least TC has a no nonsense lifetime warranty.
Try to research the features of the different models by investigating company websites, and forums that specialize in reporting about inlines and that have scores of dedicated inline shooters.
Read and research as many threads and range reports as you can over a period of time and hear and read what others have to say about their experiences on a daily basis.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder-23/

At the Cabela's website, there are many user reviews for nearly every product that they sell including inline rifles and muzzle loading bullets:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp?id=cat20815&navAction=jump&navCount=1&cmCat=MainCatcat20712&parentType=category&parentId=cat20712

I could give you more websites to visit but again, everyone is biased and lots of Google searching & reading is required to get a balanced perspective. And every forum has an advanced search function to sift through its archives.
Now what was the original question?
What's the most accurate muzzle loader and why recommend one over another?
Well, I have a new inline in mind for myself and it will not be one based on ignition, or lastest features, or best accuracy. It will be the one that I like for my own reasons.
It will have features that make it good enough for me to hold, shoot and hunt with in the woods that I go to and with the powders and the cheaper bullets that I like to shoot. And it will definitely be a less expensive rifle with a shorter barrel for better handling.
Does accuracy matter? Oh yes, accuracy matters to some but not as much to me. Most of my shots are 50 yards or less.
It's mostly about personal choice, comfort and preference about a hunting and shooting tool and how much anyone wants to spend.
I don't believe that there are any absolutes when it comes to accuracy. What if everyone says that their gun will shoot into 1 inch at 100 yards which is very often the case?
What's next? Accuracy at 200 yards, 300 yards and beyond?
I'm not shooting pronghorns at 400 yards, I'm mostly hunting deer in the woods at 50 yards. And I don't want a barrel that's 28 inches long. Do you?
There's also every other factor, ease of cleaning, simple or complex actions with more or less moving parts, enclosed or open actions, simple or complicated triggers, short, long or longer barrels, wood, laminated, thumbhole or plastic stocks, false muzzles or barrels rifled all of the way to the tip of the crown, external hammer, bolt, firing pin or striker bolt. Each person makes their choice based on knowing that every rifle model has something to offer and comes with its own pros and cons. If it was only about accuracy then everyone would be shooting the same few models.
There are an awful lot of good shooting guns and very few bad ones.
Ask yourself:
How far do you want to shoot?
What powder do you want to shoot with?
How much do you want to spend?
How much are you willing to pay for the best bullets, scope, powder etc...?
Then identify some models of interest, find our how they operate and shoot and then try to find out how they "feel". :)

[mykeal]

Just a quick question....
And the question was...???

[Uncle Mike]

Thank you arcticap, that was very ....enlightening!

mykeal, the question was in your knowledgeable opinion, what models of muzzleloader were best along the lines of accuracy, durability, ease of use and so on.

But as as arcticap revealed, there is a mountain of variables to contend with in deciding on a particular model...just as with centerfire rifles.

I suppose the variables would be 209 ignition, accurate out to 200y, and by accurate I would assume a 3" or so group at this range would suffice, but in reality the rifle would probably be as you mentioned, a 50y to 100y whitetail rifle.

Powder...Blackhorn 209 if it is the hot steaming deal, will be fine.

I am not sure as to which projectile to use, like I said, whitetail and the occasional black bear hunt, would a sabot arraignment be better than say the powerbelt type, or just a plain ol' bullet?

Cost of the bullets is not a big factor, nor the scope and other attachments.
A good trigger is a must, the stock material is of no concern just so it is not a thumbhole unit.

I often thought that a 27" or 28" barrel would be good, however after reading your post i am inclined to reason a shorter, handier tube may be best. As for the rifling and false muzzles, what are the advantages to each?

I can see, as with all things foreign, one must do a great deal of research!

Thank you again-

[mykeal]

Apologies for being sarcastic - it wasn't warranted. I was reacting to a 'short' question that seeded a bit longer. Not that I haven't done that myself several times. I have nothing to add to arcticap's very complete answer.

I am a patched roundball fan - I know they have always done the job for me. The only other thing I've used is Powerbelts, which were also adequate and better at longer ranges. But, I hunted in heavy cover, so 40-60 yards was max range and the better performance at longer ranges wasn't needed.

[scrat]

it all depends on what your looking for, cap lock, flintlock, 209. as mentioned they each have their pros and cons but they are all really good and fun to shoot

[arcticap]

The Powerbelts can present some problems of their own depending on which ones are used. Some of them might be better for quicker & easier reloading after the barrel is fouled by the first shot.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=480298

Premium bullets are often considered to be more accurate and to perform better from more rifles, like several of the Barnes, Nosler Partitions & Speer Gold Dots. But they're also much more expensive to practice with.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0003545152

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0011550281


The hinged/break action receiver type [like the Triumph] is shorter, so at 6.5 pounds without a scope, the longer 28" barrel isn't as heavy or as noticiably long.
Plus the non-rifled false muzzle section reduces the effective length of the rifling. So a 28" barrel is more like a 26" inch one.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat20815_TGP&id=0064083216377a&navCount=2&podId=0064083&parentId=cat20815&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IK&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat20815

Most inline barrels do have a false muzzle for projectile alignment during loading. There have been few minor complaints about the sharp edges of where the rifling begins within the false muzzle that can cause hang up problems when starting the slightly oversized sabot. The edges where the rifling begins may not be rounded off like with a regular crown and it's not usually a problem as evidence by the great accuracy of most guns over many shot fired.
But people can never really explain the reason why flyers occur when muzzle loading. There's a lot of potential causes and it can happen without regard to how much a gun costs.
But the false muzzle is now widely accepted and regarded as an improvement, especially since most every expensive model has it. But the Savage has a conventional crown without a false muzzle, so go figure.
A person can only draw their own conclusion about it since any opinion would be biased anyway.

[Uncle Mike]

Apologies for being sarcastic - it wasn't warranted.

No apologies necessary! We're all friends here!

Am I to believe the Savage ML-10 is one of the most accurate muzzleloaders out there?

I like the TC Pro hunter, Endeaver and especially the CVA Apex.

The CVA Apex with its Bergara barrel, I think I got it right that time, lol and its accuracy guarantee along with a lifetime warranty is hard to beat!

[arcticap]

The Savage, when loaded with smokeless powder and the right loads has proven to have exceptional long range accuracy. But sometimes the expensive premium bullets and components are required to achieve it.
With any muzzle loader, there are more wrong loads than there are right loads.
If it's loaded right, then it usually shoots right. There are forums that have many dedicated Savage 10 ML shooters that help folks learn all about shooting it.
I'll wager that the other guns are plenty accurate too. The main differences are velocity which affects long range accuracy, and the amount of cleaning required after shooting each of them.

Here's 2 forums with sections dedicated to Savage smokeless muzzle loading.

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/index.php

Here's an extensive index of articles about the Savage:

http://randywakeman.com/savage3.htm

[whosyrdaddy]

Here is an interesting piece on the Savage that every prospective buyer should read.
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html

If you appreciate quality and are willing to pay for it, have a look at these 500 yard MOA bp guns.
http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/

From my personal experience, I have found both the CVA Optima and the Knight Bighorn and Wolverine to be extremely accurate with a variety of loads. The Optima is heavy compared to the Knights.

[arcticap]

I agree that the alert should be read as a "FYI".
But in all fairness to the Savage, there was an entire thread about whether the alert is really warranted or more of an overblown issue.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=457382&highlight=savage

[Underclocked]

http://www.sunrisearchery.com/Apex.htm

Something I wrote up that might interest you.

Don't take "not cleaning for a year" to heart if using BH209. I'm sure that isn't what Articap was suggesting (comment was about the Savage and true smokeless). Just wanted to make sure everyone understood that as I first read his post incorrectly. Some have learned the hard way, one fellow had to buy a new Encore barrel as a result. Western has changed the bottle labels to reflect the need for cleaning - don't skip it.

And Uncle Mike, if you want a "muzzleloader only", don't overlook the CVA Accura or the TC Triumph. My Accura rifles have shot great from the get-go.
For either of those or the Apex, I would recommend a good 250-300 grain bullet in a Harvester Crushed Rib sabot over 90-100 grains of your chosen powder. All handle the Blackhorn very well.

[Rollis R. Karvellis]

I saw go with the Omega starter pack, everything to get started, pluse bore sighted from the factory, and a scope can be monted easly.

[arcticap]

Thank you Underclocked for the wonderfully in depth review of the CVA Apex.
I never had the opportunity to learn so much about it before.
I'm very impressed by the Apex's stainless receiver & barrel, and its breech plug design.
While I wouldn't buy one to hunt with during our winter BP deer season due to it having a 14 inch length of pull, that measurement is probably perfect for many people whether they wear heavy winter clothing while hunting or not. :)

[Uncle Mike]

Yes... thank you underclocked for the Apex review, it was excellent!

I find the Apex to be the one I am returning to during my brief but intense research. I also am looking hard at the Accura as I don't desire the interchangeable barrel system, but this is of no avail, the Apex looks to be a fine poppin' stick.

How is the Accura, and how does it compare to the Apex?

Does your Accura and Apex fancy...say the Barns 300 grain original or the likes of it?
And can you , or would you share your recipes of loads with us.

I plan on shooting sabots.

I may settle on the Apex or Accura, but am leaning towards the Apex...now to find one on sale!

Thanx again!

[Underclocked]

So far my loads have been mostly 300 grain Hornady XTP (both mag and non-mag), Speer Gold Dots and Speer Uni-Cor Soft points of the same weight in Harvester crushed rib sabots for the .45 bullets...atop 90-100 grains of BH209. I've a bunch of Win209A primers so that's my choice. :)

Both the Accura and the Apex shoot extremely well. And can easily yield MOA or less 3-shot groups. I tried some Swiss 3F behind some 496 grain cast conicals in both rifles and have to say the Apex handled and shot that load beautifully, with essentially zero blowback. The Accura with the same load did well but substantial blowback found it's way into the action.

If you have no need of the switch barrel feature, and you can get past the goosey looking buttstock of the Accura, it is one very nice muzzleloader with a great, light trigger.

You might want to read https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2473924/page/1 Note that I later mounted a different scope on the rifle and positioned it a little more "inline" with the norm. :)

I'm sure those Barnes bullets would shoot very well, just a bit expensive for my uses. Neither rifle has shown itself to be overly picky about load choices. The Accura did seem to do better with the 200 grain XTPs in blue MMP sabots that I chose for its first outing...

http://i35.tinypic.com/2ic19as.jpg

But the Apex is no slouch with 300 grainers...

http://i37.tinypic.com/207rt7d.jpg

I was never much impressed by CVA rifles until these two models came along. You would have difficulty prying either of them away from me.

Best of luck in finding an Apex in stock. They are a bit rare just now.

[Underclocked]

ps: I purchased my Apex from R&R Arms. I believe they had a total of 7 or 8 Apex .50 caliber rifles come in stock, all at about the same time - and all sold out very quickly.

[Uncle Mike]

Well, you can't complain about those groups, I mean out of a coal burner.... Shucks, those groups would be braggin' material out of a high dollar center fire!

I more and more am seeing an Apex in the gun safe...!

I see what you mean concerning the 'goose neck' looking stock on the Accura and some of the other models.
How does this style stock work for you...? If it works well, fits good and allows the use of optics without having to do any heavy modifications to the buttstock, then the looks can be gotten used to.

Most all rifles and shotguns I have scoped have some kind of aftermarket cheek piece added to them for proper eye alignment to the optics.

I hope to catch a sale going on soon... the Apex is something less than five bills right now, and the Accura is hovering around two and a half to three and a half...dealer.

[Underclocked]

The Accura stock fits and handles very well. There was no "get used to it" effect as there was when I bought my first Encore. It comes up naturally and the scope is right there for me. It just looks a bit odd. :)

[Uncle Mike]

Well then...it's a lot like me...looks funny, but works well!
Thanx-

[Uncle Mike]

Guys...how are the Knight KP-1 muzzleloaders? I found some at what I assume is a good price.
They are the P1M-209-50-SB
the P1M-209-50-SN and the P1M-209-50-SC....from 4 to 5 hundred dollars. And they each come with a extra barrel in either 204 Ruger or 308 Win.

I read somewhere that the KP-1 was a turd and had problems, any truth to that?

[Underclocked]

I had a review up of the KP-1 but took it down when I uploaded the Apex review.

There is some REAL meaning in that if you want to read between the lines.

http://www.missouri-whitetails.com/data/500/S-452-SightronGS.jpg

My P1ML209-50/SC KP-1 is shown above. May have it sold.

[Underclocked]

http://i36.tinypic.com/13z7rd3.jpg

[Uncle Mike]

I understand-Gottcha.

[Uncle Mike]

So I'm reading the Randy Wakeman review of the Knight KP-1 and he bashes this thing to the very end and then, upon reaching the last paragraph, he states that this is the best in-line muzzleloader built, but could use some improvement....talk about indecisive.

Are the KP-1's of any count or are they indeed turds as was written?

How about the Apex...is it waterproof as far as the breech, obviously we all understand that you have to cover the muzzle in inclement weather.

Darn....now the Savage is pulling at my wallet....

The fact that several Savages, and many a CVA have grenaded is more than likely operator error.

What is all this fluff I read of the CVA barrels...yes the Bergara barrels, being less than required to use 150gr of go juice...? Is it to say that the CVA Bergara barrels will not allow the safe usage if 150 grain powder charges, or is this bad PR...?

Just asking because there seems to be several condescending articles out there concerning these rifles.

One article pointed out that the CVA barrels were proofed at around 10k PSI and a charge of 150gr. of BP would generate twice that pressure. And CVA knew this but did not care, yadda, yadda, yadda.

[Underclocked]

I must say that I do not think the KP1 is horrible, just that there are things about it that I don't find to be well thought out. A fellow on Modern Muzzleloader forum by the handle "Spitpatch" is quite a good shot and has stated that his KP1 is the most accurate muzzleloader he owns (and he has several). You would think a company that has long been a muzzleloader builder would concentrate first on getting the muzzleloader aspect of the product right. Instead, the wheel re-inventors created some problems using either the FPJ system or the standard primer system. Knight killed themselves with re-inventing the wheel instead of using proven designs. Of course the economy taking a dump didn't help either.

The gun industry writers selected to use and review new products could do themselves, the companies involved, and certainly the consumers a world of good by giving a product a real going over and not be afraid to offer criticism where warranted. They apparently are too worried about continuing their own livelihood rather than offer up honest efforts and opinions. It's either that or a lot of them are just not the people to which manufacturers should listen.

Most of those articles written by Randy? The Savage failures were probably reported by Toby Bridges, who I think has a legitimate concern but there were some strange circumstances surrounding the failure of one of his own 10MLIIs.

CVA has had some issues with failures in the past (my guess would be that most were operator induced). So has almost every other gunmaker that I can think of, but none seemed to be championed by a crusader or garner as much as attention as CVA's. I know of a couple of incidents involving a TC and the first incident was related to me by none other than the fellow that writes so much about CVA issues. Nary a word in print about that one so far as I'm aware. I even know of a fellow that had a White barrel split on him and Whites were unquestionably made with some excellent barrels (Wilson, Clerke, Criterion).

The Bergara barrels are of first quality, IMHO. I think they would compare well with any other barrel on the market. I do believe Mike Bellm believes much the same and that man knows a bit more than I ever will about rifle barrels. http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=554

CVA does not recommend exceeding 110 grains of loose powder or 3X 50 grain equivalent pellets. I don't recommend exceeding those values either as I think they are both conservative and sensible (although I think 3 pellet loads are for masochists). They also recommend a limit on conical weight of 400 grains and on sabot-carried bullets of 300 grains. You will notice in my write up about the Apex, the first bullets I tried were 496 grain "Trashcan" conicals over a sensible powder charge. :) The rifle handled them beautifully.

The Savage 10MLII is a great rifle but not without its own quirks and aggravations. I personally think it is a MISTAKE to advocate the use of smokeless in any muzzleloader as it seems to be a step over the line (at least for me). Who knows, maybe next will come the idea of encasing that smokeless, go ahead and seat a bullet on the end of that casing, and just eliminate those pesky ramrods. Maybe even put the primer on the other end of the casing somehow. :)

If you want to read about Savage ml use - http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless is a good place to start. To each his own.

[Uncle Mike]

I think there is a lot of bias opinion in the muzzleloader world, moreso than the centerfire arena for some reason.

I looked at the pic. of that ML-10 that blew, now I am by no means an expert but it doesn't look like to me that gas expansion behind and around the breech plug area was to blame, just an observation and passing thought.

I think any of the 'better' built coal burners will be safe and accurate as long as one does his part.

We don't stock muzzleloaders here at the shop, we'll order one for a customer if asked, so I might take a trip to Gander and check out a few.

Thank you gentlemen for all your help, and any other information you may wish to share would be appreciated.

[Underclocked]

http://i33.tinypic.com/23mwun9.jpg

link to a picture showing a final revision of the older KP1 hammer-trigger assembly as compared to the newer example at top. The one with the annoying hammer mounted safety is the more elegant in appearance, especially the trigger shoe. The newer example has a much stiffer pull with no designed-in takeup, the older one has some initial take up by design but still has far and away the better trigger action. If you are still considering one, I would ask which mechanism is installed, hoping for the older variant.

You are right about the bias and I will freely admit to my own, but you haven't seen anything until you go to a true-blue traditional forum. Don't dare mention an inline of any sort! :)

[Uncle Mike]

So....from the experts....which one to get?

Savage ML-10 or a Knight KP-1...?

[Underclocked]

Of those two, I would choose the Apex. ;)

[arcticap]

If you want to shoot smokeless and have the accuracy & cleaning benefits then get the Savage.
Even if it's only intangible, if there's something about the Knight that really appeals to you then buy it. Who wouldn't like having a .308 barrel combo. for that price?
It's a little longer and heavier, but that's a personal decision.

Here's a favorable Knight KP1 review:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/st_kp1_200712/

Some said that the Savage needs to have its vent replaced regularly. No biggie and it's based on a centerfire rifle design. And if the barrel isn't allowed to cool down between shots and an inch of accuracy is lost, so what?

Check out some of the user reviews at Cabela's.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?type=pod&cmCat=MainCatcat20712-cat20720-cat20815&id=0065969

[Underclocked]

The KP1 review linked was a pre-production prototype gun and what is amazing to me are the things he didn't bother to mention. For instance, the extractor failing to work 2 times in a row (and that's giving it benefit, as it usually didn't work at all), the awkwardness of even attempting to use the FPJ system, and the nightmare that cleaning can become if and when blowback makes it into that action.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/reviews.jsp?productid=216923 first review by a very familiar name that also happens to sell Savages. Hard to see how that third review warranted 5 stars?

Not that I'm trying to influence your decision making or anything. ;)

[arcticap]

More feedback about the BP & centerfire KP1 without any mention of extractor problems, mostly about excellent accuracy & some misfires from a weak firing pin spring that was correctable by Knight. If the production models were known to have extractor problems then I can't seem to find anything about it.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/About+a+One+Hole+Muzzleloader

http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1485&cid=24

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=54225



I've got a KP1 .50 Cal and I love it. Dead center shots right out of the box.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3324379/Re_Knight_Shadow_Rifle

[Underclocked]

The centerfire extractors may very well work right. The one for the FPJs in mine and several others' rifles certainly doesn't.

"Loaded her up with the first 100 grain charge of BH209 and couldn't get 'er to go bang........

Cleared the flash hole prior, all was as it should be....it just would only pop the primer and that was it, several times."

That is a recent quote from a well-respected member at 24Hr Campfire sent me in a private message - he's referring to his first outing with his new KP1. He was trying to use the non-FPJ plug included with the rifle. I could get a few shots off using BH209 before getting similar results in mine. Better to use another powder with a lower ignition temperature in the KP1.

[arcticap]

And then they came out with the non-FPJ magnetic breechplug?
Does that work okay? I thought I read that it eliminated needing to use a pick to remove the used 209 primers like with some other rifles.

[Underclocked]

No, the non-FPJ magnetic plug was original. But the magnets broke routinely. They made a change to that plug by inserting a steel washer over the magnet to protect it (the first ones had the magnet exposed). You always had to remove the non-FPJ plug's primer by hand, but it was always easy to do.

The extractor was/is only for the FPJs and their plug. For the KP1, Knight should have completely dropped the FPJ concept and eliminated the lower cut in barrel/barrel lug that you see in this picture http://i36.tinypic.com/13z7rd3.jpg . That would have helped a great deal in eliminating blowback into the action where it is difficult to remove.

Including the FPJ in the design also required the non-FPJ plug to have either a long neck (it does) or a much bulkier plug. The long neck results in a cavernous area being left around the plug inside the barrel - more space for residue to accumulate. Worse than that, it cuts the flame strength enough (by having to travel farther) that BH209 is not a very reliable powder in the rifle.

[Uncle Mike]

Apologies for my ignorance, but...fpj's...non-fpj's...magnets...!?!

And I'm reading that several different flash hole/flash hole liner modifications...machining the breech plug and liner to a different angle, extended flash hole liners, all this makes for better ignition, would one of you fine gentleman care to explain this stuff? Thanx!

Oh yea, does the primer extract when you retract the bolt on the ML-10? or do you have to pick it out with a tool?

[arcticap]

The FPJ's are Full Plastic Jackets as opposed to the original Disc that Knight designed to hold the 209 primer in place and to make inserting and removing the primer easier.

See them on this page.

http://www.knightrifles.com/catalog.aspx?catID=PercussionCapsules

The Non-FPJ plug had a magnet designed to hold the 209 primer in place as an alternative to needing jackets.
Some believe that these plastic jackets and discs led to the downfall of the popularity of Knight rifles since they're proprietary and unconventional.

The Savage has a primer holder slot that's integral with the end of the bolt face that's called a "firing pin support". The spent primer is retracted along with the bolt after firing for easy removal by hand.

You can see a picture of it on page 6 of the Savage PDF manual.

http://www.savagearms.com/images/pdf/manuals/10MLII.pdf

[Underclocked]

I must follow up on the quote from the Campfire member above regarding failure with BH209. I had pm'd him yesterday to ask if he got his KP1 straightened out and his reply this morning:

"Yep, and I'm thrilled with it.......

I coated the bore with UBC, modified a Weaver solid base into a 30 MOA rail, and installed a Leupy 3X9 with old school target turrets. Painted up the stocks too, in Krylon Camo.

Using a load of 110 grain weighed charges of Goex FFg, a T/C sabot, and 240 grain XTP's I'm able to get from a 100 yard zero to 250 yards in just under 15 MOA. The "worst" group I fired the other day was just over 2 inches at 250 yards firing from prone off of bipods and a rear bag."

Not bad at all!

[Uncle Mike]

I coated the bore with UBC,

Anybody know were to get this stuff at. I tried the website but it was down or dead or.....?

I think I'm going to go with the Savage ML-10...I realized that it may take a couple (Savage and an Apex) to quill my muzzleloading itch!

Something else to spend money I don't have on....lol hehehehe

[Underclocked]

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=44&osCsid=d0a6344995340fc5389471b3742e0cba

[Uncle Mike]

Underclocked....thank you for the link.

What do you all think of Ultra Bore Coat?

[Whellenman]

KP1 I have one and love it.