A Pizza Delivery Driver's View of Gun Control


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2dogs
November 5, 2003, 08:29 AM
This can be viewed much more effectively on the KABA link- the side by side chart at the end (showing armed vs unarmed pizza guy stories- didn't show up in my post) is interesting, along with the other links.


http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/Item.asp?ID=3622

A Pizza Delivery Driver's View of Gun Control

By George Combs II
thegame@cinci.rr.com

November 5, 2003

KeepAndBearArms.com -- I have been a longtime advocate of unrestricted firearms ownership. I believe that the Second Amendment is clear, despite the contention of gun control advocates. Moreover, the writings of the Founders of this nation are explicit. They intended America to be a free society, and one where the right to keep and bear arms was not to be infringed for any reason.

In one sentence, I believe that gun control creates needless victims.

According to the Bureau of Labor statistics, pizza delivery is ranked #5 on the list of occupations with the highest mortality rates. (The list can be found here: http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/13/pf/dangerousjobs/index.htm?cnn=yes.) My occupation is right behind timber cutters, fishers, pilots, and structural metal workers. Incidentally, law enforcement officers and firefighters didn't crack the top ten. Does this not speak volumes?

On Wednesday, November 4, 2003, I submitted an article to KeepAndBearArms.com's Newslinks entitled: "Pizza deliveryman gunned down at west Phoenix apartments." As the editor stated, Domino's Pizza indeed has a strict policy of no armed drivers. He used the word "disarmed" and said "Domino's has blood on their hands." I can't argue with that. In fact, not only does Domino's have such a policy, but all the major chains, plus most of the regional chains and 'mom & pop'-type stores, too.

The official Domino's policy concerning robbers is: 'Don't provoke, don't resist.' What choice do we have, pray tell? This is a job that pays a low base wage; a lot of our money is in tips and mileage reimbursement. No one wants to get hurt or killed over a pizza and a few measly dollars, so drivers will readily give them up. But there are criminals and would-be criminals who simply won't be appeased by that. They want to hurt and kill. It really is that simple.

Domino's says we should do callbacks on every single suspicious order. But at high-volume stores where the phone is ringing off the hook and we're told to get the orders delivered and get back quickly to the store to take more pizzas to customers, callbacks aren't really feasible. Most drivers, myself included, have cell phones, but you still can't tell what a customer's intentions are. I discussed the armed drivers issue with a former manager some time ago, and he said was opposed to it because it would scare customers to have a driver with a gun standing on their front porch. Mind you, this was in a city with a high crime area. When the Rodney King incident hit the news, there was a riot there that night. A police car was overturned and three people were killed. Two drivers came back to the store with damage to their cars -- one with a shattered windshield because someone had thrown a cinder block through it. Thankfully, neither was hurt. And the manager was worried about scared customers? Besides, who's talking about drivers strapping a gun around their waists a'la Clint Eastwood in those old spaghetti westerns? Concealed carry would give drivers a proven defensive tool while not attracting attention. That's the idea of carrying concealed weapons.

Avni Dobratiqi didn't see his killer. And even if he had, I doubt the outcome would have been any different. The same goes for people like Barry Schrader, Precious Canter, El Said Abed, Robin Ballard, Nabeel Siddiqui and Brion Barrett. These people were pizza delivery drivers who were killed, and none of them stood a chance against their assailants.

I don't want to become a statistic, and I don't want to see another innocent human being become a statistic needlessly.

In talking to other drivers, many of whom say they support concealed carry, I've learned many don't want to carry one themselves. One of the major reasons was that carrying a concealed gun would be "uncomfortable." Hold the phone! If you think carrying a gun under your shirt is uncomfortable, realize that it's a lot more comfortable than getting shot, stabbed or hit in the face with a baseball bat.

There is one truth about a free society: A free society is one where the lawful have the greatest possible advantage over the lawless. Or at least a fighting chance.

It's high time people learn it.



TO LIVE, OR NOT TO LIVE?

Natural Rights of Man:
Gun Banners' Utopia:

Pizza delivery man shoots armed robber

Aware that fellow delivery men "are robbed frequently," a delivery man ignores store policy, carries a gun and thwarts an armed robbery. Pizza delivery driver, mistaken for a Muslim by young thugs
"So they robbed a Domino's driver, expecting to net big bucks." (July 27, 2003, Page B2)


Pizza shop worker sends robber to early grave

A pizza shop employee chased down and fatally shot a man who had just robbed his store. The robber was armed. The pizza man was, too. Good guy sleeps in his own bed, robber pushing daises -- as it should be. Pizza deliveryman's attackers now face murder charge
"A 24-year-old Kearny pizza deliveryman who was beaten with a baseball bat on Sept. 27 died at University Hospital in Newark on Oct. 6 after spending 10 days in a coma..." (October 9, 2003)


Pizza man holds suspect at bay until cops arrive

A robber pulled a gun on a delivery man. The delivery man, however, was armed and pulled his own gun. Thinking it best to keep breathing for a while longer, the crook stayed put until authorities arrived. Pizzeria owner murdered during delivery
"El Said Abed believed his Mechanicsville Turnpike pizza shop should deliver to all neighborhoods, even those that are dangerous. Those good intentions may have cost him his life." (June 23, 2003)


Pizza delivery man may have saved his own life -- with a gun

Two thugs robbed and kidnapped a delivery man, then drove him to a wooded area. The delivery man grabbed a gun he kept in his vehicle and put an end to the kidnappers' plans. Shooting death of pizza delivery man during an apparent holdup
"Police say 13-year-old Demarios Banyard and 18-year-old Dennis Ragsdale are each charged in the slaying of 25-year-old Robin Ballard." (February 26, 2003)


Pizzeria manager shoots 2 armed robbers, both were on probation

This one happened at Christmastime. Thank goodness the manager was prepared -- so he could go home to his loved ones. Suspects Sought In Pizza Deliveryman Murder
"A 24-year-old pizza deliveryman was reportedly shot and killed overnight in a robbery at a Hungry Howie's restaurant in northwest Detroit." (February 26, 2003)


Pizza deliveryman with gun scares off would-be robber

A criminal armed with a .22-cal. rifle suddenly changed his plans when he saw a deliveryman's shotgun. (The Buffalo News, December 9, 2002) Mom of 2 killed delivering pizzas
"Grief and rage consumed Richard Cordell yesterday as he stood behind a police barricade and wondered what investigators were doing in the middle-school parking lot where his daughter's body lay." (June 30, 2000)

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PeteyPete
November 5, 2003, 09:18 AM
I used to think about this when i was in college...

I delivered for a restaurant to pay my way through school, and you wouldn't believe how many times I thought i was going to be robbed. I think the NRA shirts, and days lifting in the gym deterred quite a few dodgy characters.

Kingknives
November 5, 2003, 10:51 AM
I deliver for our local Domino's on a part-time basis, but luckily it is not a high crime area, and other than having a couple of cars burgled our drivers hadn't had a problem...........yet. It could still happen.

I'm also fortunate that the managers are pretty lenient on policy. They know I'm a knife and gun nut, and a CWP holder, and they've pretty much have taken a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. They've never said anything about the folders clipped to my pockets, and never asked if I'm carrying. If I ever had to shoot, I'd worry about it then.

It's a disgrace that stores feel the need to adopt this policy to be "PC", and I'm suprised no one has filed a suit against them for dis-arming their employees that have been killed.

Joe

Psssniper
November 5, 2003, 12:27 PM
Well here is what one entreprenurial pizza guy did about the problem.
The following story is from the Second Chance web site.

The concept for Second Chance® soft concealable body armor was conceived in a dark alley on Detroit's far west side on a summer night over a quarter century ago. Richard Davis, owner of a small local pizzeria, was making a delivery when he was attacked and shot. Davis returned fire wounding two of his three attackers. Weeks later while recovering from his wounds, Davis business was burned to the ground.

The '69 shooting incident inspired Davis to research and develop a means of personal ballistic protection. The result was a soft, flexible, concealable panel of ballistic nylon material layered to stop common street handgun firepower. The ballistic material, first generation in the body armor industry, was similar to that found in flak jackets worn in Korea and Vietnam. By taking the bullet resistant panel, large enough to protect the wearer's vital organ area both front and back, and placing it under an outer garment hidden from a possible assailant, the wearer was given a "second chance" to survive a ballistic attack and retaliate. Davis realized the law enforcement community needed his new invention the most. The next hurdle was to convince the streetwise cop that this soft ballistic panel would stop bullets.

TallPine
November 5, 2003, 12:53 PM
If we let pizza delivery drivers carry guns, then pretty soon everyone will want to. Where does it stop?

Next thing you know, the airline pilots will want to be armed. :rolleyes:


[sarcasm alert for the humor impaired]

7.62FullMetalJacket
November 5, 2003, 01:23 PM
I think we should have a ban on pizza delivery, and an import ban on pizza in general, particularly pizzas that are clearly designed to only kill humans, such as the double cheese meat lovers. It's for the children.

Ed Straker
November 5, 2003, 02:00 PM
Wow, didn't know that about Rich Davis.
Problem with arming pizza guys is you'd have people like Ryan (our store's immature idiot) pulling the gun on customers, demanding a tip.
Wasn't hit in the face with a baseball bat, was assaulted by two big ol' drunk football player types and hit in the head with a MagLite; Not a robbery, just 'let's beat up the pizza guy'.
If I had a gun, they'd both be dead and I'd be fired and maybe in jail, maybe not. 3 deadly force situations: Being headlocked against the back of my car; Being on the ground getting kicked; Being hit in the head with a MagLite.
They got more of a fight than they were expecting, so they ran off, so I guess it wasn't a total disaster.
So now I have 3 Spydercos and some Fox Labs on me, and my manager is a martial arts guy who also carries knives, so the don't ask don't tell is pretty much in place here these days.
Another guy got robbed and carjacked at knifepoint. He quit.
Just an 'It happened to me' story, take from it what you will.

TallPine
November 5, 2003, 02:20 PM
"Warning: Driver carries less than $20.00 worth of ammunition."

Bartholomew Roberts
November 5, 2003, 05:20 PM
Reminds me of a story an acquaintance of mine used to tell... he was in the Navy in San Diego and used to frequently slip over to TJ and generally drink and behave like a sailor.

One morning after a big night he is headed home and gets sideways in a part of San Diego he doesn't know. A couple of locals decide that he looks sufficiently out of place that they'll beat on him just for that and after a brief chase they proceed to do exactly that at about 5-1 odds.

At this point a pizza delivery car pulls up and the driver jumps out with a big chromed 1911 and orders the guys off him - they take off running and the pizza man gives the guy a ride to a safer locale. He has a soft spot in his heart now for pizza delivery guys :)

makarov1
November 5, 2003, 09:48 PM
I delivered pizza back in Junior College, in a rural Virginia County. On a dirt lane in one of the State's poorest counties (Accomack, on the Eastern Shore) I had a run-in with some shady characters that demanded money. I just gave them my pizzas and said, "It's on me." I got the feeling they were just looking for something free, I guess I was right, as they seemed content with a couple of free pizzas. Anyway, the moral of the story is that pizza delivery is dangerous no matter you are. At the very least, an armed delivery driver has more options if the robbery suddenly takes a turn for the worse.

John Ross
November 6, 2003, 11:08 AM
Pizza delivery drivers are often robbed. Like taxi drivers, they are summoned to strange neighborhoods by people they’ve never met who know they are carrying cash. My fellow drivers at the pizzeria where I worked in college in the '70s refused to deliver pizzas to a specific section of one UMass dorm that was all black.

I became known as the guy who would deliver to them, and only had one attempted robbery in dozens of deliveries there.

I used the "moneyclip technique" (this was in in '78) when I was a delivery driver and got cornered by two guys with knives.

I looked terrified, dropped the pizza carrier and threw my hands to my face. "Please don't hurt me! Take my money!" (Money clip thrown between them.) "Take my credit card, too!" (Reach for back pocket, but out comes the 5" (Yes, 5") M29 from an IWB holster.) Welcome to *my* world.

Fast thinking? Not at all. One of many scenarios I had reheased over and over.

I teach this in my CCW classes. I don't bother making up a separate clip, I just use my real one.

JR

P.S. I gave the two losers the choice of me calling the police, or them using their knives to cut up their leather coats and then leaving the knives on the ground with their prints on them. They reluctantly chose the latter option. Got me out of hours of hassle a week before finals without feeling like I was completely shirking my civic duty. I still have the two knives.

As mentioned before. pizza delivery driver Richard Davis was inspired to invent soft body armor after he was wounded in a pizza delivery robbery. Davis’ Second Chance Body Armor now has more ‘saves’ than all other makes combined.

chaim
November 6, 2003, 12:50 PM
On three occasions in my life, the last as a second job about a year ago, I've delivered pizza. I live in Columbia, MD, a generally affluent Baltimore and Washington suburb but with a few bad areas.

About a decade ago it wasn't a bad place to deliver, even in the bad neighborhoods (once in a blue moon someone was robbed but that was about it). Back then the scariest incidents were with dogs that were either out loose or that customers were dumb enough to have tied up in their front yards (note- please if you order a pizza do not put your dog on a chain in the front yard keeping the driver from being able to safely reach your front door and then complain when the pizza is late). Today, a driver gets murdered somewhere in Columbia for his pizza and money about once a year.

The last time I delivered my company regularly (in fact a good 20-30% of our deliveries) went to the two worst parts of Columbia (for those who know Columbia, the apartments at the Long Reach Village Center and near the Oakland Mills Village Center). It was impossible to get a CCW because I'm in MD where "personal protection" isn't good enough. I regularly carried a knife and pepper spray. I had a scary incident (groups of teenage and young adult thugs trying to intimidate me) but B'H' I was never robbed or assulted (perhaps they noticed my hand in my pocket gripping something they couldn't see, in this case either my knife or my pepper spray, and they decided not to risk it). There were also many less direct situations but where my internal alarm moved nearly to red and I felt it prudent to get my pepper spray or knife into my free hand (cold night and there was a relatively large group of rowdy thuggish types hanging out in front of the apartment I had to enter in a relatively dangerous complex, a few thuggish looking guys seeming to pay me more attention than I'd like, a few drug dealers shadowing me, etc).

I don't think I would ever again deliver without carrying a gun and if I was doing it long term I'd certainly invest in a ballistic vest. As it was there were a few days that I was seriously conflicted- a bit more safety and bringing my CZ 40, S&W 65LS or 1911 with me or follow the law and leave them at home (I did once stop home, about 2 minutes from the store, to pick up my 1911 before taking a delivery to one rather scary apartment complex shortly after the above mentioned scary incident).

twoblink
November 6, 2003, 10:57 PM
<anti-gun non-logic>

Well SHAME on them pizza delivery people for not wanted to get robbed and killed..

:rolleyes:

</anti-gun non-logic>

whoami
November 7, 2003, 12:36 PM
Hehe.....there's a pizza shop in Camden (unarmed serfdom of NJ where firearms and self-defense are practically illegal) that came up with a unique solution.

They simple said 'Sorry....we've had a huge number of incidents in these certain areas, and for our own safety and continued business we will no longer deliver to these areas'.

The protest wheels came out big time and claimed that the decision was solely motivated by racism. Gotta love America.....

7.62FullMetalJacket
November 7, 2003, 12:41 PM
I heard that there was a case in court about "red lining" areas. Of course, the race card was the cause. I believe that it was ruled that red lining was not legal. I guess even people in violent neighborhoods HAVE A RIGHT to delivered pizza. I need to file a suit. Nobody will deliver pizza to me here either!

gun-fucious
November 7, 2003, 12:53 PM
hard to get the drop on 'em, if yer carring
a hot bag with 2 Large Ps, a Medium 1/2 S 1/2 M, a six pack of Coke
and a money bag

Maybe a glock in the hot bag would work

all though i have seen drivers pull out with the hot bag on the roof

tunaman
November 7, 2003, 01:38 PM
While this is off the subject of pizzza delivery drivers, it is very similar. My local gas station attendant got robbed on Wedesday night at gunpoint. SHE has been working there for quite awhile and works ALONE at night. Interestingly, the camera had been broken and the robber knew exactly where the store phone was and where the woman kept her cell phone. I asked the store owner about firearms and he felt that he was safer without them then with them, particularly from a lawsuit. Gots to love **********, where criminals have more rights then victims do. By the way, the worker was so shaken up it reportedly took 4 hours for the police staff shrink to calm the her down enough to talk clearly.

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