Berrys vs. Powerbond PIC HEAVY


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longdayjake
October 27, 2009, 06:44 PM
Most of you know by now that I sell powerbond plated bullets. Many of you have asked me why I recommend using jacketed data for them. Powerbond has a thicker plating as well as what I believe to be a superior copper mixture. As promised, I did a little bit of side by side testing with the berry's and powerbond bullets. I am personally very very pleased with the results as they show to me that the powerbond are indeed a superior bullet. Berry's are cheaper though so in this case you get what you pay for.

side by side picture. Powerbond on the left and Berry's on the right.
First thing I noticed with the berry's is that they have small dents all over them. I imagine this is from the bullets smashing together durning shipping. The Powerbond do not have this except for an occasional bump on one or two.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3447.jpg

close up of powerbond

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3448.jpg

close up of berrys

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3450.jpg

Next I smashed them with a hammer. Powerbond is on the left and berry's is on the right. You can see that the berrys has a lot more lead showing. The berry's started showing lead after just the second hit with the hammer. The Powerbond's thicker plating held up until the very last smack with the hammer. I also noticed that the powerbond required a harder hit to flaten it out.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3451.jpg

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longdayjake
October 27, 2009, 06:45 PM
This picture I flatened them out sideways to see how they would do. Powerbond is the one on top.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3454.jpg

other side

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3455.jpg

So, I loaded some side by side to try out the crimp. First try loading the berry's I stripped the plating right off the side. My setup does not have a case mouth expander die so that problem would probably be eliminated with a good bell on the case mouth. I think the berry's are .356 though so that may have had a little to do with it as well. I tried to place the powerbond in at an angle to see if it would do the same, but it held up great.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3459.jpg

Both bullets held up to a very heavy taper crimp.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3467.jpg

I loaded several of both, trying different amounts of crimp. I noticed another difference between the two. The berrys all deformed on the tip of the bullet. I don't know why the berry's would do that and not the powerbond, but it should be evident by the next picture. The berrys are below the powerbond. There are more berry's in the picture because I had to redo two of them that I stripped the plating off of before I could test the crimp.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG3468.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/CIMG0012.jpg

I think that both brands are shootable, but the powerbond did better in my limited test. Another thing I noticed about the berry's is that after I pulled them, the bases were deformed from pushing them in the casing. This may be solved by a good belling of the case though. Anyway, I have yet to shoot both of them but eventually I will get a chance.


Both bullets took a crimp just fine.

Walkalong
October 27, 2009, 08:05 PM
I have shot both brands. They both shoot quite well. The Powerbond is a tougher bullet that will take higher velocities than the Berrys. I have settled on the Berrys 125 Gr TrFP's for light 700 to 950 FPS plinkers, although they will take more than that, and will use Powerbonds for when I want to run them at over 1200 FPS. Both good bullets, with different uses, in my book. :)

longdayjake
October 27, 2009, 08:19 PM
walkalong,

have you tried both at the slower velocities? All of my customers tell me that their best groups with the powerbond are from hot loads. I wonder if the berry's does better at those velocities.

ljnowell
October 27, 2009, 08:19 PM
It seems to me that the lead in the powerbond is a little harder, and the plating a little thicker. Either way, you are providing a good product at a good price, so I applaud you.

Walkalong
October 27, 2009, 08:55 PM
customers tell me that their best groups with the powerbond are from hot loads.

I agree. The Powerbond bullet likes speed and pressure. It shoots just fine at low speeds with a light taper crimp, but not as well with a heavy crimp. It shoots great with a heavy taper crimp (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106429&d=1254418794) at higher pressures and velocities.

125 gr Powerbond at an Avg 1257 FPS using a heavy Taper crimp. 7 Yards. Better eyes on a better shooter could tighten that group up.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106916&d=1255194567

I have shot them at higher velocities, but don't have a pic.

The Berrys 125 Gr TrFP will shoot little bug holes at 7 yards as well when shot with a Light or Light Plus taper crimp at velocities up to 950ish.

It seems to me that the lead in the powerbond is a little harder, and the plating a little thicker.They are.

Kraylon
October 28, 2009, 04:44 AM
Good info I will have to give Power bond bullets a shot I have been using berrys and HSM and these seem to be a little cheaper then the HSM bullets that I have been getting from midway

longdayjake
October 28, 2009, 10:42 AM
HSM buys all of their plated bullets from Powerbond. I am unable to find any bullets on midway marked HSM. But if you go to HSM website, the plated bullets that they sell are indeed powerbond.

MMCSRET
October 28, 2009, 12:09 PM
Question for Jake: does Power Bond make a 100 grain in .312 dia. suitable for the 327 Magnum?
I'm currently using Rainier and having very good service from them, but have given some thought that maybe I'm pushing them a little hard with a case full of AA#9 and somewhere in the zone of 1400 FPS. Maybe the Power Bond would be some what more stable.

longdayjake
October 28, 2009, 12:53 PM
No they dont make them yet. They are trying to get a name for themselves with the more popular calibers. Once more people find out about them and start using them as much as other brands they plan on expanding their line. I have sold rainiers in the past and was a little dissapointed in their delivery times. I have some .30 carbine on order from them since January. Other than that, my customers seemed to like them just fine. However, I think powerbond should be better at high velocities.

Seedtick
October 28, 2009, 01:10 PM
Hey ldj,

Cut some in half. A cross-section view should give us a good look at the thickness of the plating on each one. At least it should if you can get a clean enough cut on something that soft and gummy.

I've not shot any of your plated bullets yet but your jacketed bullets are the bee's knees. Your prices are right and your *customer service is great. As far as I'm concerned I'm through bullet shopping, when I need lead bullets I'll get them from Missouri Bullet Company (http://www.missouribullet.com/) and when I need plated or jacketed they'll come from you, Rocky Mountain Reloading. (http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/main.sc) The exceptions are Nosler Ballistic Tips for hunting and Gold Dot defensive pistol bullets.

ST

Walkalong
October 28, 2009, 01:36 PM
does Power Bond make a 100 grain in .312 dia. I'll be watching for them as well.

Kraylon
October 28, 2009, 02:58 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#Hsm____-_1-2-4_8-16-32
here is a link to the HSM bullets, it's good to know that I have already tried the powerbond bullets and find them to be much better then the berry's bullets

longdayjake
October 28, 2009, 03:37 PM
Cut some in half.

Tried that. Didn't go so well. Im going to try and peel the plating off and see what I can get. Maybe that will make a difference.

Claude Clay
October 28, 2009, 03:52 PM
i have noticed the nose crescent on Berry's also and now use rainier.
cause they both appear to be flattened the same I'll go with the hammer test being reasonable also.

can you run this test with Rainer also??
i have run rainier 9mm to 1280 fps [equivalent to a +p cor-bon 124gr 9mm] with no problems.

ua might just change my buying habits--

Iron Sight
October 28, 2009, 04:10 PM
deleted

Iron Sight
October 28, 2009, 04:13 PM
With pliers holding the bottom of a bullet to a belt sander will show plating thickness.

Walkalong
October 28, 2009, 04:21 PM
i have run rainier 9mm to 1280 fps [equivalent to a +p cor-bon 124gr 9mm] with no problems. So have I. 1350 plus.

MMCSRET
October 28, 2009, 06:08 PM
I have run Rainier 30 Carb. 110 gr. at full power carbine loads in both a carbine and a Ruger NMBH. Worked well, thats why I decided to try the .312 100 gr. at full power in the 327 Magnum. I'm using a 4" barrel for my 327, so that puts a little more stress on the bullet than the shorter Ruger, S&W and Taurus 327's.

longdayjake
October 28, 2009, 11:19 PM
I would love to get some rainier, but none are available in my area and I don't want to buy 1000 bullets online that I don't need. I have always heard better things about rainier. I know that the rainier .30 carbine has a thicker plating than most of their pistol bullets. I actually asked the CEO if they could withstand the extra velocity and he said that they were tested past 2300 fps in a 30-30 with no problems. I think rainier also does thicker plating in a bullet designed specifically for .357 sig. There may be a couple others too, but their generic 9, 40, and .45 all have a thinner plating. I too am interested in how rainier compare to the two.

I don't have a belt sander, but I do have a vibratory sander. I will try and see if that works.

Seedtick
October 29, 2009, 12:48 AM
I don't have a belt sander, but I do have a vibratory sander. I will try and see if that works.

For that matter put a bullet in a vise and use a good file.
Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for all the trees. :scrutiny:

ST

ants
October 29, 2009, 01:18 AM
Oh, come on, Jake. It's easy! Just melt the lead out of the copper plating and weigh the copper. Smash the bullet flat so the plating breaks, heat to 550 degrees and the lead runs out, the copper stays solid because it doesn't melt at low temperature. So if one brand has X percent more copper by weight, then the plating is X percent thicker. Easy and fair comparison. [By the way, I melt the lead out of plated bullets that I recover from the berm. Good source of soft lead for blackpowder bullets.]




To defend Berry's just a little (I don't work there or anything, I just want to be fair):

The dimpled Berry's bullets and the crescent in the nose are their 'Factory Seconds'. You can buy them on their web site by clicking the Specials button. Each time they put out their seconds, they will tell you whether they are dimpled, stained, bad nose punch, or punch marks on base.

Also, I've stripped the plating off Powerbond when the case wasn't belled enough. Same with Berry's. Same with Xtreme (another excellent plated bullet).

Jake, it isn't fair to compare Powerbond firsts to Berry's seconds. I love Powerbond, ever since I started using PowerBand blackpowder bullets years ago. But I'm a fair man and I gotta insist on fairness in a head-to-head comparison. The fact that we can drive them at higher velocity is the better comparison. We should stick to actual performance, since that's the real proof in the field.

Sport45
October 29, 2009, 01:32 AM
For a comparative "toughness" test you could put the PB and Berry's bullets base to base and squeeze them in a vice. That would be a little more objective than hitting them with a hammer and nobody can say you hit one harder than the other.

longdayjake
October 29, 2009, 10:20 AM
The dimpled Berry's bullets and the crescent in the nose are their 'Factory Seconds'. You can buy them on their web site by clicking the Specials button. Each time they put out their seconds, they will tell you whether they are dimpled, stained, bad nose punch, or punch marks on base.


These were not sold to me as factory seconds. These were bought at sportsmans wharehouse for a ridiculously high price. The crescent on the nose was not there until I seated them into the casing. Also, when the rush on bullets was at its highest I sold 50,000 of the berry's 9mm. They were all the same as the ones I am testing right now. If they are factory seconds than I feel pretty jipped right now by berry's and/or sportsmans wharehouse. Look at the close up of the box of berrys and you will see that the smashed noses are not there yet. Anyone can do this same comparison and get the same result. I am not exaggerating anything.

Also, I've stripped the plating off Powerbond when the case wasn't belled enough.

Yesterday I loaded up a bunch of powerbonds. I had one that did seat kind of sideways and the plating got pushed up a little. I figured that it stripped the plating off like the berry's. I pulled the bullet out and found that there was no lead exposed. some of the plating got shaved like a jacketed bullet would, but the rest held up. I will have to post a picture of it.

I personally believe that this was a fair test of factory first with factory first. I also believe that anyone can do this testing and get the exact same results. I got the idea from a customer who did a lot more testing than I did. I know the internet is full of a bunch of untrue claims from all kinds of folks, and for that reason I wish I could get some witnesses. If anyone wants to buy some of the powerbond 9mm from me I will send some of the berry's free of charge along with the powerbond. The 9mm are no longer on my website, but I still have 3k left. They are $94 per 1000 shipped.

ASCTLC
October 31, 2009, 08:00 AM
You still have 3000 left? Well there you go Longday, include 2 Berry's in a clearly labelled plastic baggie and allow any one of your customers to witness their own test on their own batch of MBs they bought. Not scientific or anything but it's natural that we all trust ourselves more than we trust "salesmen".

Andy

longdayjake
October 31, 2009, 02:16 PM
Here is a little shooting comparison. Special thanks to Walkalong for taking the time and the excellent pictures.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6011761#post6011761

JimKirk
November 1, 2009, 12:37 AM
I've cut other jacketed bullets in half by taking a bullet placing it on a good board(2x6)and a sharp hatchet, centering it on the bullet and hitting the hatchet with ball peen hammer. Usually cuts them without smearing much at all. If it smears rub a little bar soap on the hatchet before trying again.

Jimmy K

Roccobro
November 1, 2009, 01:09 AM
I cut some .223 bullets with an exacto razor saw from the hobby store. Held it by hand, not the best way to git 'er done.

Justin

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