Who uses FMJs for Carry Ammo?

I went out to the country this afternoon and shot some of my self defense mags which had been riding around in the gun for a couple years. They were Hornady TAP .40 S&W and I hate to practice with them because they are so expensive. They shot just fine but it got me thinking about just using the regular Walmart special FMJs as self defense rounds.

If I did this, I would probably use the 180 gr. bullets because they would have more mass and likely not over penetrate as bad according to my thinking. I honestly do not worry about a 180 gr. .40 S&W's ability to stop a bad guy, it is the liability of over penetration that bothers me.

What do you experts say? Do the benefits of using what you practice with outweigh the risks of not using an expanding hollow point?

The rare occasion I can only carry a 3AT in my back pocket. I carry FMJs in the mouse gun.

it is the liability of over penetration that bothers me.

Bet a lot more miss than over penetrate I don't know about 40 . 45 ball isn't as bad at over penetration as 9mm ball But I still think you be better off keeping HP in at least the mag in pistol Then if a reload needed (that 's slim chance I believe ) go to ball.

The military's been using FMJ's for over a hundred years. Forty some years ago they worked just fine for me, and the enemy I fought was far tougher than some two bit mugger or burgler you might run across here in the U.S. Nothing wrong with the self defense loads but you're not underpowered with the FMJ's.

i'm pretty sure, in .40, that the 180gr will have more penetration than the 165gr or 155gr...and certainly more than the 135gr.

the best way to limit the penetration is HP bullets

the only 2 guns that i ever carry with FMJ is a .45 and a .25...and the .45 only when that's what i happen to have in it when i leave the range. i want every advantage if i should have to use a gun for SD

i'm pretty sure, in .40, that the 180gr will have more penetration than the 165gr or 155gr...and certainly more than the 135gr.

Don't the lighter bullets go faster and penetrate more.

+1 for barneyrw.

I do sometimes, but I can't say "why" any better than he already did.

Of course they'd work fine...but I'd still only use FMJ if I lived in a place that restricted the use of hollowpoint ammo....and then I'd probably go for EFMJ ammo.

I use Fiocchi FMJ for .380 & 9X18. IMO, hollowpoints need a bit more velocity. I like Fiocchi because they load a bit hotter than most.

Don't the lighter bullets go faster and penetrate more.

heavier bullets penetrate more. a prime example is the 147gr vs. 115gr 9mm rounds. the original 147gr loading was sub-sonic <1100 fps while a 115gr can go over 1300fps...yet the 147gr will always go further

speed sheds faster than mass

in 45 cal i have FMJ as the first and only FMJ round in the mag. the rest are Golden Sabers.

I mostly carry a .38 Special so I'm not real crazy about FMJ bullets. I like the "FBI Load" personally.

There are a ton of very good HP bullets out there for SD use. If you can't find anything other than FMJ ammo then that's what you have to use but I would rather carry HP ammo for SD. Even though they are "old" now I like Remington Golden Saber or Winchester Silvertips best. (although the new Winchester bullet is outstanding)

I use FMJ in my .32, 9x18 and .380 guns. I use HP in my .22, 9mm, .40 and .45 acp guns

200gr wide flat nose, hard cast, gas checked, 10mm auto (for hiking duty) :)

If I owned a 380 or smaller gun I would only carry FMJs in it. 38 Specials have enough mass to make HPs a better option.

I do quite often. 45acp, 9x18 mostly.

They were Hornady TAP .40 S&W and I hate to practice with them because they are so expensive.
You don't need to practice with them. Shoot enough of them to establish reliability, accuracy and whatever else floats your boat, and shoot "generic" FMJs for your practice. The recoil characteristics should be close enough that switching from one to the other should not be an issue.

In every case I have studied where the bad guy didn't go down when shot, there were two things that went wrong. One is poor shot placement. The other is under penetration. If I ever have to shoot someone, I want "over penetration".

Does anyone have any cases where over penetration was a problem? Not saying they aren't out there but I think it is over-hyped.

A long time ago I came to the conclusion that FMJ loads just worked better in my semi autos than did hollow points. The FMJ's have been more reliable, less trouble, and go bang every time. I carry nothing but FMJ ammo in my CCW's and feel real good about it.

The military is not a good example. I spent 21 years in the military, and FMJ aren't being used because they are "BETTER". They use FMJ for totally different reasons.

1) Political Correctness. HP "Supposed" do more damage and FMJ are more "Humane" in war. Matter of fact; FMJ ammunition is acceptable for military use by the countries that signed the Hague Convention of 1899, which prohibits the use of hollow-point or expanding bullets in war between the countries which signed that agreement. In other words, military is not ALLOWED to use HP.
2) The purpose of the military in small arms combat, is NOT to KILL the enemy. It is to WOUND the enemy. When you Kill the enemy, his buddies look at him and say: "Sorry to lose you Fred". When you WOUND the enemy, 1 or 2 of his buddies have to drag his butt off the field; thus 1 shot effectively STOPPED 3 people from shooting at you instead of just 1.

Personally, I recommend Hollow Points for Self/Home defense. The only concern should be; if the hollow point does what it's SUPPOSE TO DO; will it penetrate enough? If a Hollow Point DOESN'T expand, no big deal. It basically becomes a FMJ. So, if you are looking at a 32acp, and the BEST of the BEST HP ammo shows expanding properly and only penetrating 6-7 inches, you probably would do better with FMJ. If the bullet you are looking at shows expansion AND penetration in the 10+ inches range, then use the hollow point. And if by chance it doesn't expand, it will more than like penetrate further because it won't slow down with the parachute effect.

For larger KNOWN CALIBERS like the 40, 45, 357, etc... We know for a fact that if they expand properly, they still have plenty of penetration. Even the 45acp moving at 900 fps. So, hollow points is definitely recommended. It does more damage; it penetrates enough; and it usually won't over penetrate. There is no large caliber bullet that if it's a FMJ or a HP that didn't expand, that can be guaranteed to NOT OVER PENETRATE. Sorry, there is no guarantee. If you want a guarantee of not over penetrating, then use a 32acp, 380acp, or 9mm Makarov. Tests have shown that even if by chance they do over penetrate and come out the body, the remaining velocity and kinetic energy aren't usually high enough to be fatal to the next person. But that's not a guarantee; only the closest you're going to come to.

In my .38, carrying FMJ would be stupid, so I carry the +P FBI load.

In my 1911, when I do carry it (i.e. when I can conceal it), right now the mags are loaded with FMJ. This is only a stopgap measure until I find a suitable JHP that meets the reliability/feed requirements. However, since I'm still a college student and money's eternally short, I cannot as of yet afford to experiment around all too much. As a consequence, I read up more on how the various options perform so as to not waste money on over-hyped but under-performing projectiles.

FMJ has dispatched many a foe, but technology has allowed for better-performing rounds these days; once I find the one that suits my firearm, then there's no reason to NOT employ the additional benefit of an expanding, powerful projectile. Until then, though, FMJ it is.

I use FMJ for range purposes only....

230-GR Rem golden sabres in my .45ACP guns, 158-GR Gold Dots in my .357's, Fed 110-GR Personal Defense NON+P in my .38Spl

.22 lead bullets have killed a lot of deer, still they are not considered effective.
.45 ball has killed a lot of people, too, still they overpenetrate and don't really leave a .45" hole.

In every case I have studied where the bad guy didn't go down when shot, there were two things that went wrong. One is poor shot placement. The other is under penetration. If I ever have to shoot someone, I want "over penetration".

Does anyone have any cases where over penetration was a problem? Not saying they aren't out there but I think it is over-hyped.


I would also like to see some documentation regarding handgun bullets that passed completely through a person and were still able to cause damage or harm after exiting. I'm not saying bullets can't exit, but I do wonder exactly how much power they have after going completely through a person.

Does anyone have any cases where over penetration was a problem? Not saying they aren't out there but I think it is over-hyped

i guess it would depend on what you consider a problem.

i acknowledge that military examples are not optimal, but they are easi to cite and you don't need to dig very far for them (read lazy)

the first 2 examples that come to mind are:
1. the Moro uprising in the Philippines before WW II...overpenatration not dumping enough energy to stop charges
2. Somalia, think "Blackhawk Down"...5.56x45mm going through attackers

the followup problem, assuming you survive, is that you are responsible for every shot you fire in a confrontation...misses that hit other people or bullets that pass through your intended target and hit other people

I'm not saying bullets can't exit, but I do wonder exactly how much power they have after going completely through a person.

ask yourself a question. would you consider another person, cover or concealment?

The military shoots FMJs because of the differing conventions and goals of warfare. The self-defense shooter has goals and rules that much more closely mimic those of a Law Enforcement agency.

Law Enforcement agencies spend time and money researching which ammunition is effective and mitigates risks like over (or under) penetration; and they use modern hollowpoints.

Actually, there's a catch-22 to both sides. In some respect, OVER PENETRATION (Coming out the back of the person you shot) can be a very good thing. The whole (one shot stop) is a CROCK OF Shiite. You need to hit the nervous system or create rapid drop in blood pressure. If the bullet goes through the person, you actually have 2 holes which mean quicker blood loss and quicker drop in blood pressure. However; as mentioned; you are responsible for whatever is in the path of that bullet.

Hollow points that don't over penetrate normally expand; cause a larger wound cavity; therefor a better chance of hitting a vital organ or the central nervous system; and more internal bleeding. Mind you; a properly placed shot TRUMPS ALL OF THESE DEBATES. I.e A proper shot with a 22LR FMJ lead, will instantly kill the attacker.

We're talking about the Not-Perfect shot. In this case, you can have more blood loss and quicker decrease in blood pressure by using the FMJ, with deeper penetration and possibly 2 holes to lose blood from; or you can have a larger wound cavity and a better chance of hitting secondary internal points of incapacitation and more internal blood loss by using the Hollow Point.

Me personally; I use the Hollow Point in the 9mm Makarove or above; and I use a FMJ in 380acp and below. Matter of fact; for the 32acp/380acp I will use Buffalo Bore that simply kicks butt for a FMJ. I use 230 grain golden sabers for the 45acp; 158 grain Hydra-shok for the 357 magnum; and Hornady 95 hp for the 9mm Makarov.

I don't know whether FMJ or HP is a better choice for personal defense, but my guess is that within the same caliber and bullet weight they are probably pretty close. The difference between handgun rounds is actually pretty small when compared to a rifle or shot gun.

There are lots of good points in this thread already.

The military is not a good example. I spent 21 years in the military, and FMJ aren't being used because they are "BETTER". They use FMJ for totally different reasons.

1) Political Correctness. HP "Supposed" do more damage and FMJ are more "Humane" in war.

Good point.

However, the reason most of us use hollow points is probably because law enforcement uses them. The "Law Enforcement Political Correctness" corollary to the military one is whether Law Enforcement uses hollow points because they work better or because there is less chance of "shoot through" or collateral damage or to actually kill the threat.

In war, the military member is trying to kill the other guy and isn't worried about getting sued. The law enforcement officer isn't trying to kill anybody, but he probably does have some concern about who's going to try and sue him today for doing his job. Would law enforcement pick a round that would make them more or less likely to be sued.

There have been lots of research done on gunshot victims and how the various rounds have performed. However, since the actual numbers of people shot with each round is statistically relatively small and because of all of the variables of each of the shootings such as distance, angle, layers of clothing, size of the victim, determination of the victim, drugs in the system, etc., make these studies almost useless.

On the other hand, people have shot huge numbers of game animals with rifles and pistols for many years and have studied the effectiveness of each round very carefully.

Two things to think about.
1. How many hunters using a round .35 caliber or larger (pistol or rifle), use a hollow point because they don't think the bullet diameter is big enough.
2. How many hunters using a round .35 caliber or larger (pistol or rifle), when hunting anything that can hurt them (bite or stomp them), use a hollow point bullet.

The conclusion is not that FMJ is better, but that those looking for a personnel defense round to stop a threat and hunters looking to stop a threat have chosen different bullets to accomplish their respective tasks. Hunters typically look for more penetration (even if it is complete shoot through at any angle), while in the personnel defense realm the shooter seems to be looking for more expansion with no shoot through. I suppose the question to ask is why.

Hunting ammunition, while not hollowpoints, is also generally not FMJ, but soft point. In fact, many states prohibit the use of FMJ for hunting because it is considered inhumane. Soft point handgun ammunition doesn't really work since most handguns can't push a bullet fast enough for a soft point to expand.

.45

I have 8+1 FMJ

I may be able to land one or two, then pummel my adversary with the steel framed pistol.

JTQ; I agree with you on the use of HP. My point was to respond to the post that said if FMJ is good enough for the military, then it's good enough for them. My response was that the military IS NOT ALLOWED to use FMJ because of signed treaties. Governments have agreed that in the Rules of war, they will use FMJ. It's not that it's better, simply that it is what is agreed upon.

hunters that use solids for dangerous game do so for a different reason. They NEED deep penetration, to break through bones and very thick skin.

1. NY had overpenetration problems thats why they switched to HP

2. When we were in the phillipines we were using the 38S&W it didnt work so they resurected the 45LC from the Cav days this was pre 1911.

3. The military follows the 1899 Hague Conventions consisted of four main sections and three additional declarations (the final main section is for some reason identical to the first additional declaration):
I - Pacific Settlement of International Disputes
II - Laws and Customs of War on Land
III - Adaptation to Maritime Warfare of Principles of Geneva Convention of 1864
IV - Prohibiting Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
Declaration I - On the Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
Declaration II - On the Use of Projectiles the Object of Which is the Diffusion of Asphyxiating or Deleterious Gases
Declaration III - In the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body .
Even though we did not sign this one.

For SD situations accuracy is king but HP ammo will help a lot in delivering as much energy into the BG as possible. Round nose ammo slips into the body and leaves an almost self healing hole. HP ammo causes more blood loss dou to a larger hole and more damage.instead of Gel tested bullets here is one actually recovered from a BG a 110gr 28spl
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/writings/Negreteslug003.jpg

i want every advantage if i should have to use a gun for SDWhich is why HP ammunition is the best choice, if you are getting reliable expansion (If I pack the P32 the wife got me for my birthday, it will likely be loaded with a hot FMJ, but that is not applicable to .40)
Poorly performing HP acts like a wad-cutter, but most rounds into center mass should expand. You don't need to practice with the premium HP ammo much after you run some through for reliability testing, the difference in POA between practice ammo and commercial HP ammo isn't significant at SD distances, and you're not going for match-level accuracy anyway.

Carrying FMJ range ammo has a number of drawbacks -
-It isn't made with the same level of QA as most defense ammo, and isn't quite as reliable
in fact, I've been seeing some pretty crummy ammo in factory boxes in the last few months
-It won't expand and it may over-penetrate even more than HP would while leaving icepick-style wounds.
Remember, you aren't shooting drillbits, flesh will be pushed out of the way by a FMJ round and re-close behind it much more than the cavitation effect of HP would allow
-Generally, it isn't loaded as hot, which reduces the over-penetration issue but robs kinetic energy from a handgun round
all concealable handgun rounds are light on KE in the first place
-Perhaps it is an urban legend, but shooting ammo that says something like "personal protection" right on the box might matter to a jury
or it might not, but it couldn't hurt


Personally, I go for commercial HP ammo that works, and don't worry about having the latest wonder-bullet from the company with the most ninjas on the box. I'm budget-minded as well for ammunition, generally I pay somewhere between 75 cents to a buck a round for defense ammo (9mm), which is about triple the cost of range fodder, and approximately eleventy gazillion times more expensive than .22LR, which I shoot so much more at the range that I have actually paid for guns by shooting .22 instead of 9mm, cost-wise.

So, if you want free advice - keep a stock of HP rounds that you know work in your SD pistol, shoot them up every 6 months or so, and do more practice with rimfire to save cash. If you don't have a rimfire handgun that mimics your SD one, get one ... feel free to go cheap/used on that rimfire trainer, you don't need an Olympic-grade target pistol, you want a trainer with reasonable accuracy that at least sort of feels like your carry pistol. Don't worry about the occasional malfunction in that rimfire trainer, think of them as clearing drills and treat them like training.

FMJ and HP are not the only choices: Frangible (http://www.ebr-inc.net/40S&WFrangible.html)

Me, quite often.

Three out of the four handguns that I carry for self-defense are semi-autos. Because extreme reliability (in terms of feeding without jams) is the biggest asset I insist on in a pistol used for self-defense, my self-shuckers are all stoked with hardball-the standard when ultra-reliable function is the goal.

If I did this, I would probably use the 180 gr. bullets because they would have more mass and likely not over penetrate as bad according to my thinking.

You have it backwards... heavier bullets penetrate more than lighter ones if the caliber is the same. They have the same frontal cross section (AKA: friction) with more mass to slow down. Anyway, pretty much any .40 SW FMJ will overpenetrate on a human target.

For a .40 I would use JHP for CCW. The only gun I use FMJ in is my .32 acp... maybe some slow 230g 45 acp ball would be ok.

<<"The purpose of the military in small arms combat, is NOT to KILL the enemy. It is to WOUND the enemy.">>

I don't know where that comes from. I spent a year (1968 - 1969) as a Marine Corps Platoon Commander then Company Commander of a Marine Corps Rifle Company and our goal was definitely to KILL the enemy. In fact any enemy wounded usually received a final shot to the head, facts of life in war.
Back to the subject at hand, I think HP's are great but again you are not under powered with FMJ's and in some small calibers like .380's or .32's you may be better off with FMJ's.

The military's been using FMJ's for over a hundred years. Forty some years ago they worked just fine for me, and the enemy I fought was far tougher than some two bit mugger or burgler you might run across here in the U.S. Nothing wrong with the self defense loads but you're not underpowered with the FMJ's. My sentiments EXACTLY! Thanks for the post.

You must ALWAYS worry about overpenetration. It's not like you can load up with .40 or .45 premium JHP ammo and think to yourself; "Wow! I'm so relieved. I USED to worry that my FMJs would overpenetrate and risk injuring innocent bystanders behind the bad guy, but now that I'm using hollow-points, I can shoot a bad guy and not worry about hitting the baby in his backpack." No. You ALWAYS have to worry about your background. This NEVER changes. You don't suddenly have to worry LESS about your background just because you switched to hollow-points, it doesn't change a thing.

If there is a round with so little energy that it is not likely to exit a human target, it is too weak to use for defense. You want a round that will penetrate 12" of ballistic gelatin. This means that it is very likely to go completely through a human target with energy to spare.

I carry JHP ammo in my .45, but if for some reason I was carrying hard-ball, it wouldn't change anything at all in my plan. I think the difference is much greater on the internet than it is in real life.

+1 to above. No matter what you're using, you're still pointing your gun in their direction.

I know the Harold Fish case in AZ was recently overturned..but, I wonder if this has led more cc's to use FMJ's. I had read that some were switching to smaller calibers because of this case.

I use FMJs in my .45 ACP 1911 and my 9 X 18 Makarov CZ-82. I am confident a well placed FMJ will stop an attacker.
:)

The SD gun has to work. It has to work first time, every time. There may not be time to reload or clear a jam. Those are all good reasons to carry FMJ ammo.

I use FMJ in my .380 because I do not believe the HPs will be as reliable and probably won't expand anyway at .380 velocities. I figure at least the gun will work.

I use FMJ in my .45 because it's new, and I haven't had the opportunity or money to run 200+ rounds of one brand of HP through it. I can't find the HPs for a reasonable price at gun stores or on line, and I can't find them at all at my favorite department store.

Also, I'm a fan of shooting for the hips, and I believe FMJs will perform better on that type of shot. I believe braking the base is a smart way to Stop an attack, and also somewhat less likely to hit an innocent by-stander with a stray shot (since the muzzle is pointed down or at least downish). That being said, I probably will switch to HPs when I have a chance to prove they work. Either way, the SD gun has to work, first time, every time.

just remeber you are responsible for everywhere the bullet goes...

One thing I've really learned from this thread is that a lot more people are carrying 9x18 chamberings than I thought!

not I, i use corbon dpx in my handguns.

I load my mag alternately with fmj and hollow points, just in case I have to shoot through glass or a wall, etc. with my 1911 which I carry concealed.

Wadcutters? ....anyone? Seems like they'd work OK for the wheelgunners. The hole wouldn't be 'self-healing'.

Normal wadcutters are light loaded. So, unless you load them yourself you might not have enough velocity for expansion (or even enough penetration). I don't know though... I've never had the occasion to find out for sure (thank goodness). YMMV.

I enjoy threads like this one here at THR because, well, folks tend to take The High Road and avoid making it messy. In the process, I learn a lot (and question tightly held beliefs). I strongly agree with the comments that basically said you should always worry about over penetrating or missing your target, no matter what you're loading.

One point I'd like to make... for most of us, the "OMG, I've been shot" factor would be enough to stop an attack. Unfortunately, some of the drugs people are using these days takes that factor away, and this discussion becomes more than academic....

At the moment, I have my .357 (S&W Model 66-3) loaded with Fiocchi .357 158 GR Hollow Points.
My BUG is a Bersa .380 CC. It is loaded with Fiocchi 95 gr. JHP.

I am now reconsidering that, since FMJ is cheaper and apparently the penetration might be much better. I'm waffling on this one. The one big counterpoint seems to be that FMJ brands I've been finding are more cheaply made. The SD ammo I am able to find locally or available on the Internet in .380 ACP seems to be better made and more reliable.

I've heard of folks carrying wadcutters made from hard lead, they're supposed to be devasting s/d rounds. I just loaded up some 230 gr. Gold Dots last night, so I swapped out my FMJ's. Actually, they weren't FMJ's, they were plated LRN target loads. When you don't have any high-tech s/d ammo, ANY type bullet will be better than none.

I would carry FMJ in 9mm or .45 acp in a pinch, but i have JHP for now. 9mm FMJ is best for punching thru barriers and hitting the threat.

JHP beats FMJ every time for SD ammo.


I do have 100 rounds of these tho, and I have no idea why.


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=268


interesting enough to purchase I guess.

Would I hesitate using them if thats all I got? nope.


I have about 150 rounds of good GDHP ammo tho, so I doubt I will ever need to.

.380 and under get the FMJ's.
My Beretta 84 and 85 have soft frame feed ramps and get a little chewed up by the more aggressive hollow-point bullet designs.
Besides, I play like I practice.

Normal wadcutters are light loaded. So, unless you load them yourself you might not have enough velocity for expansion (or even enough penetration)

Not entirely correct. First of all, I'm not aware of the need for a wadcutter to expand... its tip is already the full size of the caliber. As for penetration, even a light-loaded 148g 38 spl wadcutter at say 750 fps will still penetrate deeper than most any expanding ammo. Buffalo Bore makes some standard pressure 150g stuff that approaches 850 fps... it is some mean stuff. But I would even carry the lighter loads if needed.

I do have 100 rounds of these tho, and I have no idea why.


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=268

Those are actually really good loads for hiking in the woods if all you have is a 9mm. I wouldn't dare carry those in an urban environment... prolly go right through 2-3 people before it stops.

380 and under and it's FMJ. Over 380 and it's jhp

Interesting question. I've never checked ballistics, just gone on the recommendation of law enforcement officers I know - both active and retired.

HPs:
For the 9mm semiauto CCW, I carry Rem +P Golden Sabers (Brass JHP). And Speer Gold Dot JHP 180gr in the 40 cal (both are SIGs). My L-frame S&W 357 carries Golden Saber JHP 38 +P for home defense with a speedloader of semi-jacketed magnum hollowpoints for backup.

FMJ:
For my summer/backup piece, the Colt Agent 38 special carries 6 rounds of full-jacketed wadcutter - the aluminum framed revolver won't hold up well with a steady diet of +P, and when I tried some +P in it to see the recoil made follow up shots harder. Most of the "old guys" at the range carry the same. Some have said that the copper might be rough on the barrel, but I think the frame would crack before the barrel wears out.

So I would concur with the other posters in that I tend to use FMJ (in this case, JWC) rounds in the smaller calibers.

Why not carry a staggered clip...You are only going to shoot a bad guy twice, once in the chest and once in the head, and if you decide to unload the clip while out for fun or practice, it does not cost much......I just make sure its staggered e/ the same load 185 or 230

Further more, David slue Goliath w/ a rock....a rock!!!!!!!!!!

The only handgun I'd use FMJ with is my old Colt Gov't model .45ACP -- it doesn't do well with JHP's I've tried. My other Colt's/1911's (all .45ACP), Glocks (.45ACP, .40SW or 9x19) and revolvers do just fine with JHP's so that's what they would be loaded with for PD.

I don't agree with the argument that, "if FMJ is good enough for the military it's good enough for me". The military is looking to wound or kill combatants, not necessarily to immediately stop them. Wounding an enemy combatant can tie up other enemy combatants. The military doesn't mind over-penetration because the guy standing behind one enemy soldier is probably another enemy soldier -- that's a two'fer. Besides, FMJ ammo is cheaper than a good JHP and cheaper is always better when you're buying millions (billions?) of rounds.

Don't look to military requirements to define your PD needs.

I would carry ball if it were all I had. I often load one of my HD mags with the stuff (the primary mag containing JHP). But, this is to keep costs down as replacing my main HD load has become quite expensive. But, overall, I save the ball ammo for practice when I can.

Regardless, unless your weapon functions more reliably when using ball ammo, I see no real reason to carry such ammo if JHP is available to you.

Why not carry a staggered clip...You are only going to shoot a bad guy twice, once in the chest and once in the head,
No, I am going to shoot the bad guy until he ceases to be a threat to me.

In 9mm I have 1,000 rds of WW 147gr Sub Sonic JHP, 100rds WW 127gr +P+ Black Talons and a bunch of GDHP's and some ball for plinking.
I use the +P+ in my Sig 228 and the GDHP's in my S&W 6906
My GI 1918mfg 1911 .45 works fine with WW Ranger 230gr H.P.

I had more jams in my Springfield M1911 using HPs than when using FMJs. Do any of the rest of you have that problem with your .45 ACP?

This is my choice in self defense ammo in .45acp. Hornady 200 FMJ 'combat target' at about 860 fps.
http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo205/FF1063/DSC04700a.jpg
Ignore the round on the left, it's a Sinterfire frangible.

bralph-

Why do you think it's a good idea to not know for sure what you are about to shoot? You need to absolutely know what you are working with for every shot.

Reality does not reflect your notion that a gunfight is only going to be two shots. If you believe this, why carry more than two shots at all? Police AND civilians normally miss a lot and need more than one shot to stop the fight.

When you are using deadly force, you will continue to fire until: A: You run out of ammo; B: The target disappears from view; or C: The threat is stopped.

And big bill, no, my Kimber has been pretty flawless with either kind of ammo, but I've run a lot more FMJ than HP.

I had more jams in my Springfield M1911 using HPs than when using FMJs. Do any of the rest of you have that problem with your .45 ACP?

I cant speak for the M1911, but I had similar issues with my XD45ACP until I found this article (which happens to be related to a different caliber, but still pertinent). Its worth a read.

http://www.xd-hs2000.com/longsliderelease.html


Why not carry a staggered clip...You are only going to shoot a bad guy twice, once in the chest and once in the head, and if you decide to unload the clip while out for fun or practice, it does not cost much......I just make sure its staggered e/ the same load 185 or 230

Staggering is a bad idea on any level. I suggest, if cost effectiveness is of concern, to load the primary mag with JHP and the secondary or tertiary mag with FMJ. Consistency is the key here. Staggering ammo only leads to unnecessary confusion IMHO.

In addition, who says that two shots will be enough to successfully stop him/her/they; much less being able to pull off a "Mozambique" style series (two in the chest, followed by one in the noodle) while under extreme duress? This assumes way too much.

2) The purpose of the military in small arms combat, is NOT to KILL the enemy. It is to WOUND the enemy. When you Kill the enemy, his buddies look at him and say: "Sorry to lose you Fred". When you WOUND the enemy, 1 or 2 of his buddies have to drag his butt off the field; thus 1 shot effectively STOPPED 3 people from shooting at you instead of just 1.

I think this is a myth. Most of the time you see overkill instead because the U.S. military is smart enough to realize that most of the enemies it fights do not waste time and resources on wounded fighters.

The purpose of the military in small arms combat, is NOT to KILL the enemy. It is to WOUND the enemy. When you Kill the enemy, his buddies look at him and say: "Sorry to lose you Fred". When you WOUND the enemy, 1 or 2 of his buddies have to drag his butt off the field; thus 1 shot effectively STOPPED 3 people from shooting at you instead of just 1.

But then again, an opponent who is merely wounded can still fight (and shoot to kill).

Keep in mind, many on the battlefield also may try to transport the dead as well, thus leaving themselves vulnerable.

I know that my brother carries FMJ's in the Bersa .380 he CC's. At the moment its not out of choice though its due to whats avalible at local retailers.

Contrary to popular belief JHP ammo *will* penetrate walls (multiple walls, not wall) Just take a look at http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm The also have tested shooting through car windshields.

I agree with riverdog that using what the military uses is not always the way to go for home/self defense ammunition since we have liability issues that the military does not.

Whoever said that .45 is less likely to "overpenetrate" due to mass of the bullet, may want to think again. I have heard that .45ACP perforates human targets 7 times out of 10. Additionally .45ACP will penetrate 27+ inches of ballistics gelatin. If I recall correctly anything that penetrates over 14 inches would generally exit the other side of a human target, which would mean a .45 has the potential to punch all the way through a human target and still have sufficient energy to seriously wound or kill a second. Here is a quote from an article by Massad Ayoob "The .45’s big bullet and well-earned reputation for stopping power make it more forgiving of less-than-optimum ammo choices, though you still want to stay away from full metal jacket because of its tendency to grossly over-penetrate, and to ricochet." The entire article is viewable here. http://www.tactical-life.com/online/exclusives/defense-loads-of-choice-the-word-from-the-street/?email=exclusives

I used fancy defense stuff because it is labeled "personal defense" for my carry and hd guns. My stockpile, shtf ammo is all fmj and I would feel very comfortable using it to defend myself if necessary.

I use FMJs when I'm carrying my 9x18's. Anything else - JHP.

It has been proven that in police shootings officers miss about 80% of the time. Most shots never impact a person. For that reason I really don't think the driving force behind the use of HPs has anything to do with over penetration. It has more to do with immobilizing he bad guy. HPs do more tissue damage, and thus have a greater negative impact on the human body. In simple terms they deliver more SHOCK, both physically and mentally.

When was the last time you heard about a cop, or anyone else for that matter shooting through one person and maiming/ killing another? When has this ever been a huge problem? It is not... "Over Penetration" is an invented problem used as a marketing tool. Can it happen... Of coarse, but usually damage and loss of life would be negligible.

Think about this... would you shoot at a bad guy with HPs any quicker than w/ FMJs if a 9 year old child was directly behind said bad guy? Doubtful...:banghead: