45-70 govt vs 500 smith and wesson


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Mr Bernoulli
October 28, 2009, 06:48 PM
I was looking at some of those H&R/NEF handi rifles and you can get them chambered in either. I want it for a brush gun for deer drives etc. What would you guys get and what do you think the pros and cons of each are?

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jbech123
October 28, 2009, 08:03 PM
45-70 has many more options for loads. You can get easy on the shoulder cowboy loads to absolute sledgehammers that approach 458 win mag. In a rifle, I can't see what the 500 S&W brings to the table.

dakotasin
October 28, 2009, 08:13 PM
in a rifle if it is an either/or decision i'd opt for the 45-70 due to versatility...

alemonkey
October 28, 2009, 10:22 PM
But with the .500 you can brag to your buddies that you have a fitty.

Maverick223
October 28, 2009, 10:35 PM
.45-70Govt. is much cheaper to feed (whether you reload or not), is more versatile (someone has been developing loads for it to do whatever you want for the last 136 yrs), you can find ammo locally if necessary, and it is not likely to become obsolete for another 136 years or so. Best of all you can put big holes in big mean things (like big angry trash cans filled with water or the past 20yrs of yellow pages)...though ale is right, you can't brag that you gots a fitty. :)

kragluver
October 28, 2009, 10:40 PM
If you want to brag about having "a fifty", get a muzzle loader and shoot .50 or .54 cal round ball. Its a hoot and you'll learn more about shooting the way our GG grandfathers did it!

achildofthesky
October 28, 2009, 11:16 PM
45-70, not even a choice really... Much more options in factory and with reloading it breathes fire or rolls them out the bore.

Maverick223
October 28, 2009, 11:54 PM
If you want to brag about having "a fifty", get a muzzle loader and shoot .50 or .54 cal round ball.I am pretty certain that Ale was joking...and I know that I was. There is no magic that a .50cal can perform that a .458 can't. :)

Publius1688
October 29, 2009, 12:01 AM
To my way of thinking, this is an easy one-- .45-70.
Cheaper up front, cheaper to shoot, cheaper to handload, more applications.
And cooler.

R.W.Dale
October 29, 2009, 12:58 AM
I'm going to say 45/70 but for a diffrent reason than the other posters


Having shot handi rifles in both chamberings let me tell ya that 500 in a 6lb gun with no brake will lay waste to your shoulder. The 45/70 in factory form has more choices in shoulder friendly loads. There's 45/70 loads that range from mild to nuts cvs 500 loads that go from nuts to hyper shoulder mangulation

BMF500
October 29, 2009, 01:09 AM
I was looking at some of those H&R/NEF handi rifles and you can get them chambered in either. I want it for a brush gun for deer drives etc. What would you guys get and what do you think the pros and cons of each are?
There are many good points here that lean to the 45/70 being the better choice. I asked myself this very question not long ago. I decided on the .500 mainly because I already had that calibre in a revolver and own none chambered in 45/70.

krochus is 100% correct, a hot .500 round in these rifles will rock your world.

Double Naught Spy
October 29, 2009, 01:20 AM
Another vote for .45-70. I have two lever guns and find that they are terrific. There are lots of ammo choices out there for you, as noted above, but not just in light and heavy loads, but in a whole range of bullet types from frangible to soft lead, to hard cast, to various jacketed rounds. You can get ball, hollowpoint, soft point, and even plastic tipped spire rounds (Hornady Leverevolution). You can find a loading good for deer, bear, or buffalo.

Mr Bernoulli
October 30, 2009, 11:15 AM
ok sounds like the 45-70! I was more leaning toward this for these reasons such as handloading etc because I would like to get into it very soon. I just wanted to see what everyone thought. Thanks guys!

Robert
October 30, 2009, 11:24 AM
45-70 all the way. Then you can brag about having a 45 2 1/10 and watch people get all kinds of confused.

batmann
October 30, 2009, 07:57 PM
IMHO, go with the .45-70. The .500 Mag ballistics are good, for a pistol round, but the .45-70 has any number of ammo makers the take it up to almost .458 range.

kragluver
October 30, 2009, 08:02 PM
When you shoot a .45-70, you aren't just shooting any old cartridge, you are shooting history.

ArmedBear
October 31, 2009, 11:10 AM
Another point...

.45-70 is slightly tapered, even though it's called a "straight wall" cartridge. It will load and extract more easily than a .500 S&W would.

Also, a single shot .45-70 will take a heavier bullet than a .500. You have to look for some more exotic loads than are listed in the Hodgdon manual.

While the .500 S&W is an impressive revolver round, the .45-70 is actually more powerful, in a single-shot rifle. And a long heavy bullet like the ~520 grain Lyman in .45-70 does a serious number on big game, even when backed up with standard 1870s black powder loads.

420Stainless
October 31, 2009, 11:23 AM
The only real reason I could see going with the .500 Mag. is if you already have, or want a revolver in that caliber as well. Then you can reload for both. Or if you know someone who has one and you can split the costs for ammo.

Otherwise, its the .45/70 all the way in my mind.

alemonkey
October 31, 2009, 12:33 PM
I agree the only reason to get a .500 rifle is if you already have a .500 revolver. But you could get a BFR in 45-70....

45-70 is much more versatile and is one of the easiest calibers to handload.

BCRider
October 31, 2009, 03:11 PM
I wonder what the answers will be in another decade?

The .500 is a relatively young cartridge but there's a few folks that are doing some interesting reloads with them. Some of them will not chamber in the revolver due to having such long bullets. If you look at such rifle specific loads then there's a lot of freedom to develop new bullets and loads for them that can duplicate a lot of the 45-70 loadings. One area that the .500 wins is the size. It's a more compact cartridge to carry. And with today's powders the loss in casing room isn't a concern.

In time and with more load development on the S&W this comparison may not be as sure a slam dunk.

saturno_v
October 31, 2009, 03:56 PM
IMHO, go with the .45-70. The .500 Mag ballistics are good, for a pistol round, but the .45-70 has any number of ammo makers the take it up to almost .458 range.

Absolutely not true

Some super-duper single shot only nuclear loads in 45-70 can reach or slightly exceed 3500-3600 ft/lb, the 458 is around 5500 with some load approaching 6000.

The 45-70 is not an elephant cartridge, no matter what the fanatics say.

Apples and oranges.....

BMF500
November 1, 2009, 05:45 AM
Good question. I've purchased the reloading gear, but have yet to begin developing loads. I believe that the .500S&W round has the potential to compete with the time tested 45/70. We shall see.

ArmedBear
November 1, 2009, 10:04 AM
Some super-duper single shot only nuclear loads in 45-70 can reach or slightly exceed 3500-3600 ft/lb, the 458 is around 5500 with some load approaching 6000.


Of course, your use of energy like an ammo marketing piece overstates the real difference, but it's still a big difference.

The .45-70, introduced a quarter century before smokeless powder was common, was never designed for really high pressures. That's one reason the commercial .475 Linebaugh isn't made from cut-down .45-70 brass like the initial experiments.

The .458 WAS designed for high pressures and modern powders.

And the .45-70 wasn't designed for elephants.

Now a lot of the modern hyper loadings of the .45-70 are a bit silly for most applications of the thing, given that the original black powder loadings will put a bullet straight through a buffalo, where it will kill the next one behind it. Large-diameter, heavy, non-expanding bullets don't need the velocity that a smaller, lighter, expanding bullets require for proper expansion and to overcome their lack of momentum.

The problem with the .45-70 is its trajectory. It can be learned, but it isn't easy to learn. .500 S&W, with even less aerodynamic bullets and less velocity, isn't going to make that any easier. And with either round, you don't need any more energy, from a rifle.

Eric F
November 1, 2009, 11:35 AM
Ok folks I have done really long and deep research on the 500 mag and the 45-70. When you look at it both can be rather versital. Both can be loaded with smokeless ot blackpowder. The 500 mag would more or less be a 50-50 with a 350 gr bullet in the blackpowder realm. The 500 in a rifle with modern loads is more equal to a 50-90 sharps loaded with black powder. The 45-70 almost never make it to 50-90 levels with out careful considerations.

In the handi rifle the 500 will make for a sore shoulder. Although the 45-70 would do the same with heavy loads.

reloading, they cost about the same. There is a few more bullets to select from in .458 than .500 The 500 should be a little easier to reload as it has a shorter streight case verses a long tapered case.

Final say from me. If you are concerned with econimics go 45-70 unless you reload. If you relaod consider what you will be shooting. If dangerous game(wild hogs,large cats,african game) in involved go for the .500. If its just for fun go 45-70.

ArmedBear
November 1, 2009, 11:50 AM
DG by definition is dangerous TO THE HUNTER. I wouldn't choose a handi-rifle for DG.

I'm not so excited about the .50-90. I've seen it have some penetration problems that I didn't expect. Granted, they were on buffalo, but I still saw .45-70 perform a tad better. OTOH, the original Sharps rifle that the guy was using to shoot .50-90 was pretty cool, and still shot well after 135 years.

If you load .45-70 for a single shot, you can use bullets that are as heavy, but longer and skinnier. AFAIK that's what made the Army go from .50 to .45 when the cartridge was first adopted: penetraion -- and trajectory, for the same reason. Therefore, I'd take .45-70 over an ostensible clone of the .50-90.

Of course, the trajectory is still nothing like a modern rifle.:)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/.45-70vs.308.png/800px-.45-70vs.308.png

saturno_v
November 1, 2009, 01:15 PM
Of course, your use of energy like an ammo marketing piece overstates the real difference, but it's still a big difference.

The .45-70, introduced a quarter century before smokeless powder was common, was never designed for really high pressures. That's one reason the commercial .475 Linebaugh isn't made from cut-down .45-70 brass like the initial experiments.

The .458 WAS designed for high pressures and modern powders.

And the .45-70 wasn't designed for elephants.


ArmedBear

That was exactly my point...it wasn't "marketing"
I did not state the well known and obvious..as I said and as you said, the 45-70 wasn't designed to stop elephants...the 458 Win Mag was..

I was simply responding to one of the poster silly stemement about some 45-70 loadings approaching 458 territory...not even close....

ArmedBear
November 1, 2009, 01:22 PM
saturno, you're missing my point.

Using energy as the only number is what makes the numbers sound like more than they are, that's all.

500 grains at 2200 fps vs. 400 grains at 2100 fps doesn't sound like nearly as big a difference as the energy comparison does. On anything short of an elephant, you probably won't be able to tell the difference, except on your shoulder (where energy really does play a gruesome part of the equation:D).

All of that just figures into the .500 vs. .45-70 question, where the .45-70 is a better rifle cartridge, but either way there's not a huge difference. Comparing a specialized revolver round and a 137 year old rifle round is sort of funny, if someone really wants the all-out most powerful round, anyway.:)

Maverick223
November 1, 2009, 01:34 PM
If dangerous game(wild hogs,large cats,african game) in involved go for the .500. If its just for fun go 45-70.What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt. (trapdoor load), and will have a inferior sectional density and ballistic coefficient due to the larger caliber and equivalent (or lesser) mass. That said I don't believe either are good for large dangerous game (on the order of Cape Buff, Rhino, Hippo, Elephant, et al). :)

ArmedBear
November 1, 2009, 01:48 PM
The .45-70 works great for shooting buffalo, which are big ungulates, and, while they are dangerous for ranchers to handle in corrals, they generally don't lie in wait and attack like Cape Buffs would. Think of it more like hunting HUGE deer, than actual dangerous game. Bucks can kill you, too, if they want to, but deer hunting is not "dangerous game" hunting.

.45-70 is good for one-shot KILLS of large game. That doesn't mean one-shot STOPS of CHARGING large game like what Africa has in store.:)

The real dangerous game cartridges are designed to "put the smackdown" on big, aggressive animals at relatively close range. They are designed for maximum energy, penetration, slug size, and velocity.

The .45-70 is more of a manageable cartridge for hunting large game like buffalo or moose. It's been used as a general-purpose hunting round.

saturno_v
November 1, 2009, 02:01 PM
ArmedBear

I'm not missing your point

Between a 500 gr. at 2200 (a 458 can push it up to 2300) and a 400 gr. at 2100 there is a big difference in terms of energy (over 1500 ft/lb) and, having the same caliber, the 500 gr. has higher sectional density.

Put in this way, 25% more bullet weight at faster velocity......for the admirer of the momentum theory that is a big deal...

If you shoot an Elephant with both of them, let's say solid bullets, the 500 gr. will have more straight penetration abilities.

Would a bear or an Elk able to tell the difference?? Probably not....will Dumbo notice?? yes there is the chance he may survive the lighter slower slug.

Maverick223
November 1, 2009, 02:03 PM
I completely agree AB, the .45-70 is a great deer or larger rifle cartridge. It is also suitable for some dangerous game, such as bear and swine (not to include large game), and most large game, such as bison/American buffalo, water buffalo, caribou, et cetera (not to include dangerous species). It is not a large/dangerous game cartridge, and never will be, it simply does not have the case capacity to compete with African cartridges whilst maintaining a moderate pressure for easy extraction and reliability. The 500S&W is even less suitable as a large/dangerous game cartridge, for similar reasons.

:)

saturno_v
November 1, 2009, 02:09 PM
What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt. (trapdoor load), and will have a inferior sectional density and ballistic coefficient due to the larger caliber and equivalent (or lesser) mass. That said I don't believe either are good for large dangerous game (on the order of Cape Buff, Rhino, Hippo, Elephant, et al).

Maverick

I don't know what your manual says but the original 45-70 trapdoor loads developed ~1600-1700 ft/lb at the muzzle from long barrel rifles.

The 500 S&W can approach 3000 ft/lb out of a revolver barrel (albeit a long one....10")

saturno_v
November 1, 2009, 02:14 PM
On a charging dangerous animal the "smackdown" is a CNS shot....no matter how you get there, the caliber, the velocity or whatever, that is the assured stop.

On a charging lion a 243 in the brain or the spine will stop him more than a 460 Weatherby to the guts.

What heavy for caliber blunt nose bullets give you is reliable straight penetration from a wider range of shooting angles.

Finally, as has been said over and over, bullet construction is a fundamental part of the equation

Maverick223
November 1, 2009, 03:35 PM
Maverick

I don't know what your manual says but the original 45-70 trapdoor loads developed ~1600-1700 ft/lb at the muzzle from long barrel rifles.

The 500 S&W can approach 3000 ft/lb out of a revolver barrel (albeit a long one....10")Max load in .45-70Govt. 1873 Springfield "Trapdoor" (according to Lyman's 49th Ed.) is 500gr. at 1603fps, which equates to 2854 lb/ft of energy. Max 500gr. load in the 500S&W is 1515fps for 2549lb/ft (in a 15" bbl).

:)

saturno_v
November 1, 2009, 04:23 PM
Maverick


The original 45-70 trapdoor load used 70 gr. (the name 45-70) of blackpowder behind a 405 gr. bullet for a muzzle velocity of 1350 fps, equivalent to 1638 ft/lb.

There was a reduced charge Army load too, using only 55 gr. of BP for a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps.

Buffalo hunters of the time were using heavier 500 gr. bullets in front of the same 70 gr. of BP.

The most common and safe load to be used in original Trapdoor rifle is the 405 gr. bullet at 1330 fps

The loads you mentioned can be safely used only in modern Trapdoor replicas.


The most powerful (in terms of muzzle energy) 500 S&W loads I found in the Hodgdon reload data center can develops 3120 ft/lb with a 370 gr. bullet out of a 10" barrel

Winchester makes a 400 gr. loads which develops 2877 ft/lb (10" pipe)

Double Tap sells a 350 gr. loads (ME 3032 ft/lb) and a 500 gr. load (ME 2500 ft/lb) both out of a 8,3" revolver barrel and SAAMI compliant.

:)

ArmedBear
November 1, 2009, 05:26 PM
saturno, as I've said before, I've watched someone with an ORIGINAL Trapdoor with an original load, put a bullet straight through a buffalo.

You knock around your ft-lb. numbers as if they are really meaningful, but reality doesn't agree with you.

The reason for monster rounds against dangerous game is to reach the CNS through dense muscle and bone. A .243 probably won't stop a charging lion, because it won't penetrate well enough. It will absolutely bounce right off the head of a Cape Buffalo.

Hence, you want solid bullets, HEAVY bullets, going as fast as you can push them. But of all these variables, a couple hundred fps here or there are the least important, no matter what this does to the energy numbers. That's why they're somewhat illusory.

saturno_v
November 1, 2009, 05:39 PM
Armedbear

Nobody said that an old 45-70 won't go through a buffalo...it was not the topic of the discussion I think....but the energy numbers are that.....I'm not debating buffalo penetrating abilities of the original 45-70 trapdoor...that is beside the point.

The reason for monster rounds against dangerous game is to reach the CNS through dense muscle and bone.

That is exactly what I said if you read my post

A .243 probably won't stop a charging lion, because it won't penetrate well enough.

The right constructed bullet will penetrate enough...granted the wound channel will be smaller compared to a large diameter bullet

Hence, you want solid bullets, HEAVY bullets, going as fast as you can push them. But of all these variables, a couple hundred fps here or there are the least important, no matter what this does to the energy numbers.

Kinetic energy increase exponentially with speed.....any physic class will tell you that the braking power necessary to stop a car at 120 mph is MUCH MUCH HIGHER than double compared to the one needed to stop the same car going at 60 mph.

Kinetic Energy is not illusory

Maverick223
November 1, 2009, 06:12 PM
Maverick


The original 45-70 trapdoor load used 70 gr. (the name 45-70) of blackpowder behind a 405 gr. bullet for a muzzle velocity of 1350 fps, equivalent to 1638 ft/lb.

There was a reduced charge Army load too, using only 55 gr. of BP for a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps.

Buffalo hunters of the time were using heavier 500 gr. bullets in front of the same 70 gr. of BP.

The most common and safe load to be used in original Trapdoor rifle is the 405 gr. bullet at 1330 fps

The loads you mentioned can be safely used only in modern Trapdoor replicas.So now you want to compare 136 yr old BP loads to modern smokeless loads. As I said before the load that I stated is a Trapdoor rated load per the 49th edition of Lymans...call it what you want, but it is roughly equivalent to the 500S&W. OTOH my own (modern) load is a 405gr HP out of a 28" long tube at well over 2000fps...match that with the 500S&W. :D

saturno_v
November 1, 2009, 06:39 PM
You said:

What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt. (trapdoor load)

You drew the comparison...not me....

The trapdoor loads you mentioned are everything but anemic...

I would not say that the 500 S&W will exceed any 45-70 loadings..obviously that is not the case (especially the 45-70 modern rifle loads which are very remarkable)...but I would not have said that the 500 can be loaded only to an "anemic" 45-70 trapdoor load level.....3000 ft/lb is anything but anemic for an trapdoor.

An anemic trapdoor load to me means 1300-1500 fps.

SharpsDressedMan
November 1, 2009, 06:49 PM
Hmmmmm.............the .45-70 is easier on the shoulder? Might that not be an indication that the .500 would be nastier to the target than the .45-70? All else being about equal (bullet weight, rifle weight, etc), if the .500 is more punishing, it should be so at both ends........

BMF500
November 1, 2009, 07:10 PM
What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt.


My Barnes manual says different.

Leaky Waders
November 2, 2009, 04:44 PM
I like this discussion.

It would kind of neat to carry a rifle that is capable of stopping an elephant (should one get loose down our cul de sac ;) ).

Is the action of marlins 45/70 lever gun up to the task with reloads?

In other words, with reloads in an 1895 (I think that is the action) and accounting for the rainbowing...does the 45/70 offer the flexibility to plink cowboy type loads, shoot moderate deer loads, or be loaded to published guidelines for african dangerous game loads?

saturno_v
November 2, 2009, 05:04 PM
Is the action of marlins 45/70 lever gun up to the task with reloads?


No is not for the "nuclear loads" which are intended for modern non lever action rifles only (for example modern single shot).

Unfortunately when it comes to the 45-70, as far as I understand it, there is a lot of confusion for the "layman"....it's like 4 different cartridges with the same name and identical case dimension.


1) You have loads that can be used in old orignal trapdoor rifles which should not exceed 1300-1350 fps (with a 405 gr. bullet) to replicate the performance of the original BP loads.

2) Then you have modern Trapdoor replicas where you can adventure into 1600-1800 fps..these loads are good for an old Marlin leveraction also

3) Then you have modern leveraction loads where you can reach about 2000 fps and heavier bullets

4) Nuclear loads intended only for modern break action rifles......velocities in excess of 2100 fps and bullet weight in excess of 500 gr.


On top of that you have handloaders that push the limits even more (for break action rifles only)

So when people talk about the 45-70 you need to figure out "which" 45-70 they are talking about...ME ranges from ~1600 to 4000!!!!

Maverick223
November 2, 2009, 06:52 PM
No is not for the "nuclear loads" which are intended for modern break action rifles only.Break actions are relatively weak, the good actions are falling block (Winchester/Browning 1885 and Ruger No. 1/3) as well as properly converted Siamese Mausers. The Marlin 1895 is also a strong design, but not quite as strong as the aforementioned actions. :)

SharpsDressedMan
November 2, 2009, 07:03 PM
When comparing straight on ballistics from reloading books, etc, don't forget to calculate for the longer barrel of the .500 rifle you are looking at. Most all load data is for an 8 3/8" barreled revolver, or maybe 10" test barrel, not a 16-22" rifle barrel.......

saturno_v
November 2, 2009, 07:05 PM
Yes the modern falling block (for exampel Ruger)

I would not exactly call the break action rifles "weak".....they can be chambered for monsters such as the Nitro Express family which would put even the strongest 45-70 to shame...

BMF500
November 2, 2009, 07:13 PM
When comparing straight on ballistics from reloading books, etc, don't forget to calculate for the longer barrel of the .500 rifle you are looking at. Most all load data is for an 8 3/8" barreled revolver, or maybe 10" test barrel, not a 16-22" rifle barrel.......
Excellent point. Anyone have a formula for this?

MistWolf
November 2, 2009, 08:10 PM
The 45-70 was designed to kill horses at 500 yards and break cavalry charges. Being blackpowder, it used the same velocities and bullet weights as other similar calibers. The 45-70 has proved itself against the deadliest foe of all: Man.

This grand old cartridge has also proven itself in recent times in Africa. I have one article stashed away in storage about a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 being used with great success against African Buffalo. I believe the bullets used were Sledgehammers. He author wrote about killing the first buffalo and the bullet sailed through it's broadside completely, to kill a second buffalo standing behind it which our bwana and his PH didn't see. Not only did the bullet kill the second buff dead, it sailed clean through it as well.

These bullets are long, hard and have a very large meplat.

As a kid, I distinctly remember reading about the 458 Winchester Magnum used on the Dark Continent. The author seemed to have an axe to grind and wrote about all the reasons why the 458 WinMag was wrong for dangerous game. What I remember most was chamber pressure. The 458 made the same ballistics as the British calibers, but with higher chamber pressures. In colder climes this wasn't a problem but in the tropics, heat could lead to pressure spikes and with the straight walls of the case, lead to cases sticking in the chambers.

I'll grant you that American powders of the 60's was a vast improvement over British cordite, but there was still a concern over chamber pressure and heat.

The 500 S&W generates what- 60,000 psi? That's a lot of pressure for a rifle caliber let alone a pistol. Performance is impressive to be sure and it's a technical marvel that S&W can harness that power in a revolver without excessive cutting of the top strap from the hot gasses.

For a Hnadi-Rifle, I'd go with a 45-70. I'd keep the velocities down and let the bullets do the killing.

You may still feel that the 45-70 is lacking for African game. You may be right. Just don't tell Paco Kelly's Safari pals that. They might take exception

saturno_v
November 2, 2009, 08:15 PM
The 45-70 was designed to kill horses at 500 yards and break cavalry charges. Being blackpowder, it used the same velocities and bullet weights as other similar calibers. The 45-70 has proved itself against the deadliest foe of all: Man.

This grand old cartridge has also proven itself in recent times in Africa. I have one article stashed away in storage about a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 being used with great success against African Buffalo. I belive the bullets used were Sledgehammers. He author wrote about killing the first buffalo and the bullet sailed through it's broadside completely, killing it and the buffalo standing behind it which our bwana and his PH didn't see. Not only did the bullet kill the second buff dead, it sailed clean through it as well.

These bullets are long, hard and have a very large meplat.




Impressive penetration but keep in mind they were using solids (Sledgehammer are solids)...any reasonable cartridge can do quite the numbers with a solid bullet.


I saw what a cheap Mosin Nagant FMJ bullet does to a solid oak Going through and through and never recovered the bullet....how 2 feet of solid oak pass through sounds like???

A diminuitive 160 gr, soft point bullet fired from a 6.5x55 (~2000 ft/lb at the muzzle) can go completely through a Moose....

As a kid, I distinctly remember reading about the 458 Winchester Magnum used on the Dark Continent. The author seemed to have an axe to grind and wrote about all the reasons why the 458 WinMag was wrong for dangerous game. What I remember most was chamber pressure. The 458 made the same ballistics as the British calibers, but with higher chamber pressures. In colder climes this wasn't a problem but in the tropics, heat could lead to pressure spikes and with the straight walls of the case, lead to cases sticking in the chambers.



Still the 458 Win Mag is one of the most popular big 5 cartridge in Africa.

Uncle Mike
November 2, 2009, 08:39 PM
There is no magic that a .50cal can perform that a .458 can't.

You yell .458...people say huh...what?....

You yell fitty...and NOW you got their attention. Palms get sweaty, mouths get dry, babies cry....

lol hehehehe!

MAURICE
November 2, 2009, 09:23 PM
I don't own a rifle in either caliber, but if I was doing the buying it would definitely be the .45-70 because of it's versatility and history.

Maverick223
November 3, 2009, 02:15 PM
When comparing straight on ballistics from reloading books, etc, don't forget to calculate for the longer barrel of the .500 rifle you are looking at. Most all load data is for an 8 3/8" barreled revolver, or maybe 10" test barrel, not a 16-22" rifle barrel...The data that I used was for a 15" T/C barrel, I couldn't find any longer bbl for the 500S&W, though I doubt that velocity would change drastically.

I would not exactly call the break action rifles "weak".....they can be chambered for monsters such as the Nitro Express family which would put even the strongest 45-70 to shame...In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well. OTOH there are high pressure cartridges (bottleneck magnums and such) available in break actions, but these are typically a more stout design than those designed for African cartridges, .45-70s, and shotshells. :)

MistWolf
November 3, 2009, 03:56 PM
"Impressive penetration but keep in mind they were using solids (Sledgehammer are solids)...any reasonable cartridge can do quite the numbers with a solid bullet.


I saw what a cheap Mosin Nagant FMJ bullet does to a solid oak Going through and through and never recovered the bullet....how 2 feet of solid oak pass through sounds like???

A diminuitive 160 gr, soft point bullet fired from a 6.5x55 (~2000 ft/lb at the muzzle) can go completely through a Moose...."

My point exactly. Terminal perfromance is about the slug not what's printed on the bottom of the brass. A 45-70 with a solid will penetrate and kill an African buffalo. The 458 will as well.

A more contemporary article I read stated that the 458 was very popular with PHs becasue rifles and ammo was available. Other calibers have fallen into disuse more due to economics and politics. From what I understand the 458 is also one of the calibers in recent times that the factories have throttled back as their understanding of the dynamics of internal pressures have grown more sophisticated. Modern powders are also more stable and less susceptible to pressure changes due to temperatures.

The 458 has proven an effective cartridge in Africa and Alaska. So has the 45-70

saturno_v
November 3, 2009, 04:11 PM
In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well. OTOH there are high pressure cartridges (bottleneck magnums and such) available in break actions, but these are typically a more stout design than those designed for African cartridges, .45-70s, and shotshells.

Maverick

You gotta be kidding me right??


From the 470 NE through the 500, the 600 and the 700 all of them can launch a heavier bullet than the strongest 45-70 load can ever do at faster velocities.

The "lowly" 470 NE can propel a 500 gr. slug at 2200 fps, the strongest 45-70 I can find can throw a 400 gr. bullet at 2108 fps....and usually higher velocities means higher pressures...

The 600 NE can spit a 800 gr. slug at 2250 fps, a 700 Nitro Express can launch a 1000 gr. slug up to 2450 fps...got that??

All of these cartridges are classic for break action double rifles.

I have an old catalog with models from Holland & Holland, Purdey James, Sodia and others where their double rifle chambering in all models go from 375 H&H to 458 Win Mag, 470, 500 and so on....no "different" design for rifles designed for bottlenecked cartridges....the only difference is for models designed to fire smaller calibers (7 mm Magnum, 240 Apex and various other European calibers) where the barrels are skinnier.

Break Action rifles can be very strong (the strongest actually)....as with any other action, they are designed depending on their use...a bolt action 22 LR will not be as strong as a Weatherby Mark V safari action....

MistWolf
November 3, 2009, 04:23 PM
The express cartridges are loaded to lower pressures. But that doesn't make their terminal ballistics weak

saturno_v
November 3, 2009, 04:54 PM
The express cartridges are loaded to lower pressures. But that doesn't make their terminal ballistics weak

Lower pressures compared to what?? A 458 Win Mag or a 460 Wby?? Yes...a souped up 45-70?? No....

MistWolf
November 3, 2009, 05:10 PM
Understood. The 45-70 is one of those cartridges loaded to lower pressures. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I believe that standard factory smokeless 45-70 loads use even less pressure for less performance than the tropical Express loads. The object of my previous post was to point out that just because the Express cartridges used a lower pressure than the standard it didn't mean they were weak

saturno_v
November 3, 2009, 05:15 PM
Understood. The 45-70 is one of those cartridges loaded to lower pressures. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I believe that standard factory smokeless 45-70 loads use less pressure than the tropical Express loads. The point of my previous post was to point out that just because the Express cartridges used a lower pressure than the standard it didn't mean they were weak

Of course they are not

Maverick stated that the NE cartridges are lower pressure than the 45-70 (modern loads or otherwise), he called them "weak and that the break action rifles are weak....instead the break action can be the strongest of any.

Onmilo
November 3, 2009, 05:55 PM
If you look at the ballistic tables, you will note that when fired in those handguns, the .500 & .460 S&W Magnums, they are near identical to what the .45-70 and .50-70 produce in 32" long rifles.

A .500 S&W Magnum is a modern version of the old .50-70 and if you choose to load with rifle powders when shooting in a rifle you will exceed the capabilities of the older .50-70.

S&W didn't do anything monumental, they siomply adapted two 100 year old cartridges for use in their tricky handgun design.
Brilliant but not unique by any means.

SharpsDressedMan
November 3, 2009, 06:44 PM
The stop/kill a horse thing is interesting. I would think that any round that hit the horse hard enough that he didn't want to carry a rider anymore would be sufficient enough for the task. It wouldn't necessarily need to kill the horse, only stop him.

ArmedBear
November 3, 2009, 07:40 PM
A .500 S&W Magnum is a modern version of the old .50-70 and if you choose to load with rifle powders when shooting in a rifle you will exceed the capabilities of the older .50-70.

The .50-70 sucked in 1870 and it sucks now. There's a reason it was replaced by the .45-70 after only a few years of service in the military, and never gained any popularity outside the military. The .45-70 lasted as a military round until the smokeless era, and is still in common use by civilians.

The .500 S&W is a world-class handcannon round. The .45-70 is one of the world-class rifle rounds, still used for 1000 yard competition. Different cartridges, with different intents.

Obviously, they'll both lob lead downrange. However, if I had to choose between them in a single shot rifle, the .45-70 would be the easy choice.:)

Maverick223
November 4, 2009, 03:00 PM
The object of my previous post was to point out that just because the Express cartridges used a lower pressure than the standard it didn't mean they were weakThat is exactly the point that I was trying to make as well...furthermore velocity has very little to do with pressure. A high pressure cartridge is simply one that has a comparatively small case capacity with regards to its energy (mass * velocity ^ 2). I am pretty sure that no one was saying that any of the NE rounds were anemic in any way.

he called them "weak and that the break action rifles are weak....instead the break action can be the strongest of any.I did not call NE rounds "weak", only low velocity. Also I called the average .45-70Govt. break action weak, and went on to say that there are other (break actions) are not (as in high pressure magnum rounds). The large African cartridges do not typically have high velocity and therefore do not need a very robust rifle except in the case of the thrust block at the rear of the chamber as the "bolt thrust" is fairly severe with the large boomers.

:)

Wanta B
November 4, 2009, 04:16 PM
OK,I have to jump in on this one.

I have spent a good deal of time in Africa and personaly seen a can attest to seeing the "little 45-70" out of Marlin 1895s kill and penitrate further than even the vaulted 460 Weatherby...repeatedly and side by side in two cases on two seperate elephants.This is nothing new nor unheard of.Quite the contrary,many conversations have centered around this phenomnon...I personaly beleave it to be hydrostaic in nature.Hit water with your hand quickly and there is a lot of "slap" with little penitration.Do the same a noticeable amout slower and you get less "slap" with better penitration.

To say the 45-70 is not a cartridge worthy of hunting any land animal on this planet is so very incorrect!!! Other than bragging rights and "customary carry" the 1895s and 1896s do VERY well.Fast follow up shots fast reload/top offs And they have proven very reliable.

Any doubts as to the strength of the Marlin 1895 do a search for the most powerful leveraction...It will blow your mind,your shoulder and your target to kingdom come!

I would go 45-70 unless you are matching to a revolver.Wish S&W made a modern 45-70 revolver!

saturno_v
November 4, 2009, 05:17 PM
...furthermore velocity has very little to do with pressure.....

Again, you gotta be kidding right??

Velocity has everything to do with pressure....you can have a higher pressure round with a smaller case capacity being slower than a lower pressure one with significant higher capacity (for example comparing the 308 to a 30-06) but if you have two rounds of identical or nearly identical case capacity and one is higher pressure, the high pressure one will always develop higher velocity.....higher pressure = higher temperature = higher sound speed in that gas = faster pressure wave propagation.......ballistic 101...

The large African cartridges do not typically have high velocity and therefore do not need a very robust rifle

All the double rifle models I can find info on (H&H and Purdey James) offer chambering ranging from 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag and all the NE rounds......so is that action strong or not???

You said

In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well.

So to me you were implying that the break action rifles are weaker than the average 45-70 action...which is not true.

Wanta B
November 4, 2009, 05:26 PM
Careful there...358 Win and 338 Fed. have more velocity at lower pressure than 308 Win does with the same weight 180gr projectile and same case size. So,no,higher pressure does NOT always indicate higher velocity.

saturno_v
November 4, 2009, 05:29 PM
have spent a good deal of time in Africa and personaly seen a can attest to seeing the "little 45-70" out of Marlin 1895s kill and penitrate further than even the vaulted 460 Weatherby...repeatedly and side by side in two cases on two seperate elephants

What kind of bullet?? Same for both rounds?? A Garrett Hammerhead 300 gr. 44 Mag hardcast can outpenetrate a 300 gr. 375 H&H Nosler Partition....is that means that a 44 Mag will always reliably oupenetrate a 375 H&H?? Not a chance...

You know, a 460 Wby can launch a 500 gr. slug at 2600 fps or a 600 gr. at 2450 fps...8000 ft/lb of energy....where the strongest 45-70 can spit a 400 gr. pill at 2100 fps

I don't know what you really witnessed....bullet type?? shooting angles??


If the 45-70 is so "magic" (in a fast repeater rifle to boot) that can outpenetrate a 460 Wby, why experienced African hunters bother spending that kind of money in the Nitro Express and Weatherby rounds and rifles?? They could save a lot of money and go 45-70 right??

I hope H&H Hunter doesn't read your post...I would love to see his take on this...:D:what:

Talking about nonsense.....when enthusiasm clouds reason....

saturno_v
November 4, 2009, 05:44 PM
Careful there...358 Win and 338 Fed. have more velocity at lower pressure than 308 Win does with the same weight 180gr projectile and same case size.


Not according to the Hodgdon reloading manual


Max vel for a 180 gr. 308 Win is 2683 fps at 58,200 PSI

Max vel for a 180 gr. 358 Win is 2603 fps (pressure rating only in CUP so you cannot compare it)

Max vel for a 180 gr. 338 Federal is 2811 fps at 59,900 PSI


338 Federal...higher velocity and higher pressure.

However when the values (pressure and bullet weight) are very close, the different overboring ratio between the different cartridges may be a factor...

Wanta B
November 4, 2009, 06:09 PM
I am intimately familiar with both cartridges...owne weapons chambered for both.

It was an experiment in an attempt to discover how this could be.Yes the projectiles where the same.Both solids and soft round noses were used.Both fired multiple times from nearly the same angles,cavet being tissue damage nessesitated POI being slightly to one side or the other.Using the same weight projectiles the 45-70 had more penitration...I do however suspect that the 460 would do better with heavier solids but can say the 45-70 still came out over the 460 with heavier softs...Again I beleave this to be do to the hydrostatic shock value.By the way all animals were already dead.

Speaking of Garrett,he has exposed of this subject too...the penetration qualities of the slower 45-70 vs. higher velocity .458s.

As to saving money,vs. weapon used...I have a Dodge Charger that will beat the pants of Ferraris,that was built for much less money,yet folks still buy Ferraris. Like I said "customary carry" has a LOT(notice punn) to do with it as does what is legal to hunt with and long held biases as to what is effective.

Am I enthusiastic about the 45-70...absolutely! Am I talking nonsense,no.

Wanta B
November 4, 2009, 06:15 PM
AUHH!! True to a point on the 308,338,358s...I just happen to owne one of each in the same Ruger hawkeye "platforms".Loaded with the same powder,same charge,same weight projectile...velocity increases with bore size.

Wanta B
November 4, 2009, 06:34 PM
I too hope H&H Hunter chimes in. I would like to hear their input to the discussion and would be pleased to make their aquaintence.

Thinly veiled my freind,thinly veiled...and wholely ineffective.

Wanta B
November 4, 2009, 08:17 PM
BTW,levergun hunts are becoming rather popular in Africa.So it would seem more folks are trading in the high dollar arms as they discover the practicality of the good ol' leveraction.

Tamlin
November 5, 2009, 01:27 AM
Man, I'm so confused. Half of you guys think the 45-70 is the be-all, end-all gun that can take anything; the other half think it's a meager gun at best, suitable only for deer or target buffalo at point blank range. I guess I'm in the fringe 5% who think it's a decent all-around gun for almost anything, not great but not bad, maybe more for self-defense of aggressive animals, but certainly better to carry than a .357 mag rifle.

Maverick223
November 5, 2009, 12:50 PM
Again, you gotta be kidding right??

Velocity has everything to do with pressure....you can have a higher pressure round with a smaller case capacity being slower than a lower pressure one with significant higher capacity (for example comparing the 308 to a 30-06) but if you have two rounds of identical or nearly identical case capacity and one is higher pressure, the high pressure one will always develop higher velocity.....higher pressure = higher temperature = higher sound speed in that gas = faster pressure wave propagation.......ballistic 101...With regards to the same case size AND caliber of bore, that is true, HOWEVER you can have a very large, low pressure cartridge. For example the .416 Rigby is an enormous case at relatively low pressure (about 47kpsi) with ballistics comparable to the new .416Ruger which has a much smaller case volume and higher pressure (55kpsi). If you have enough powder in the case you can make it fly as fast as you like, with as high or low of pressure if you like. A high pressure cartridge will have a shorter action (typical), and be more efficient. A low pressure cartridge will be less apt to stick in the chamber, will have a greater barrel life, and will be more forgiving with regards to reloading. Both have their place and advantages, there is a notch in my gun safe for a few of each.

So to me you were implying that the break action rifles are weaker than the average 45-70 action...which is not true.NO, I am saying that of the actions chambered in .45-70Govt. (no other cartridge), the break action is amongst the weakest designs. With regards to dangerous game doubles, don't believe that the size of the cartridge requires a more robust rifle, the design of the rifle is primarily a result of the pressure of the cartridge, however the trust block or bolt must be designed based upon the energy of the round and not the pressure. Basically the breach must be thicker for a larger caliber cartridge (and/or larger base) at the same pressure due to the surface area. Also, as I have stated in an earlier post, there are break action 7mm Magnums (as well as other magnum offerings) that are in no way weak, as they operate at high pressure.

:)

saturno_v
November 5, 2009, 01:01 PM
Maverick

The same double rifle models chambered for the Nitro Express rounds usually are also chambered for the 375 H&H and 458 WM which are high pressure cartridges.

Actually there are 2 models from H&H which are chambered from the 7 mm Magnum to the enormous 600 NE...well over $100K for one rifle....:)

With regards to the same case size AND caliber of bore, that is true...

I mentioned in one of my previous post the fact that the overbore ratio may be a factor in velocity

However when the values (pressure and bullet weight) are very close, the different overboring ratio between the different cartridges may be a factor...

Maverick223
November 5, 2009, 01:07 PM
The same double rifle models chambered for the Nitro Express rounds usually are also chambered for the 375 H&H and 458 WM which are high pressure cartridges.I have little doubts, most doubles are well over-designed...as they should be. I wouldn't want a double .470NE to have any trouble even if the pressures are a little high, the weather is hot and sticky, and I am staring down an animal that wishes me a bad day...over-design is a good thing, but not typically the case with break action .45-70 rifles (generally cheap single shots not designed or intended for the pursuit of dangerous game).

:)

Wanta B
November 5, 2009, 02:19 PM
Tamlin---I agree with you that the 45-70 in not the be all end all cartridge of all time.IMO it is one of the very best and versitile.Definately one of my alltime favorites.Given todays powders and projectiles it can,will and does everything that the "african" or "safari" rounds will with less punishment to the shooter.However,again,that is with todays tech.! Much like the 30-06-another of my alltime favorites- with todays tech. can and does everything,even slightly surpases the "original" .300H&H.

Please keep in mind that almost every cartridge out there performs better than it did originaly...The cool thing about the 45-70 is the penetration factor.This NOT saying that it is "better" than the others,just a unique quality to the 45-70...in certain aplications the .460 Weatherby,tho' not having the penetration of the 45-70,still has more than enough AND has the shock value,scaled up of coarse,of a "varmint" round,ie. TREMENDOUS hydrostatic damage to surounding tissue.

So it is a trade-off of sorts.What do you want/need most?

In the end I can,will and do find all manner of reasons to get any number of weapons and chamberings.I have my favorites and "pets",if you will,that I have gained fondnesses for through decades and uncountable down range sendings.Many of those "pets" are often outdone by others.Take the .416 Rigby but there it is nastalgia...it just so happens that it also works very well .

With todays tech.,to hunt everything on the face of the planet...rifles only....22LR,30-06 and 45-70.(you could even dispense with the -06) Now were the clock turned back to say 1919, I would go 22LR,35-06(now the 35 Whelen and I could easily go with a slightly larger cartridge here),and .416 Rigby. Tho' even then the 45-70 was planting the big 5 on their butts...Of coarse this could change depending on my mood but you get my drift on power levels and versitility.

And again I have to clearify that I know there are MANY cartridges that are as versitile as the 45-70 and I have stated their advantages many times thru' the years...The OP asked about 45-70 or 500S&W,after all.

Ridgerunner665
December 30, 2009, 07:51 PM
I don't know how I missed this thread...

The 45-70 can and will penetrate deeper than a 458 Win Mag (and 460 Weatherby and 458 Lott and...all of them)...this has been proven.

This may come as a shock to some of you, but there is such a thing as too much velocity for certain things...and penetration is one of those "certain things".

Put 500-550 grain (hard cast or solid) bullets in a 45-70 (even a Marlin 1895), throw them at around 1300-1550 fps and you'll have to go well up into the Nitro Express rounds to beat them for penetration...not kinetic energy, penetration.

Read this... http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 30, 2009, 07:56 PM
I should think that for drives, you'd want both:

1. A different a caliber, with a bullet that gets there faster - can make the difference between on a moving target in hitting where you want it to (minimizing lead estimation error). I don't take shots at running deer, but if I did, I'd want a bottlenecked round - and

2. Something in a semi-auto or at least a fast manual repeater like a levergun - reason being follow up shots.

Neither Handi rifle / caliber meets either 'requirement'.

Having said that, I still have a Handi in .45-70. Have hunted with it but never took a shot at game with it. But I still keep it just because it's cool - I dunno.

Ridgerunner665
December 30, 2009, 08:23 PM
45-70 penetration... GREAT lil video.

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

Ridgerunner665
December 30, 2009, 09:43 PM
Also...I "think" Maverick223 was referring to the common break action rifles chambered in 45-70.

They are weak...especially the locking mechanism.

Wanta B
December 30, 2009, 10:01 PM
Thank you for posting those links Ridgerunner665!!!!

I rutinely carry a Marlin 1895gs Stainless...one or the other a 18.5" or my 16" LTD...not always but often.Hope to get the Marlin SBL when I get back home.My kind of carry gun!!!...well,one of them anyhow:)6rnds on tap with closed action top offs:evil:

With a bit of practice and correct loads to simulate the slow heavy weights,only with light "practice rounds" to help with flinching problems,a person should have no worries with lead off with the heavies when the time comes.:D

Ridgerunner665
December 30, 2009, 10:06 PM
You're Welcome...

The old 45-70 is something to behold...the numbers on paper DO NOT tell its story.

noob_shooter
December 30, 2009, 10:09 PM
a 500 SW is not a good enough 50 to brag about.. a 50 BMG rifle is something worth bragging about..

cz85cmbt
December 30, 2009, 10:40 PM
This was a dug up from awhile ago. I'm curious how hot a handi rifle can be loaded in .45-70, you would assume really hot because a 500 smith is around 55,000 psi right? I'm not gonna bother to look it up but it is around there. It is a lame cartridge in my book. All the bullets for it bleed energy faster than a .45-70 ever dreamed about, it is a pistol round first where a bc doesn't count for much. As a revolver cartridge it has retarded amounts of recoil. In general, a waste of time.

Maverick223
December 30, 2009, 10:56 PM
Also...I "think" Maverick223 was referring to the common break action rifles chambered in 45-70.

They are weak...especially the locking mechanism.Exactly...thank you for taking the time to read the posts to understand the point that I was trying to make. I love the .45-70 (and most any .40cal+ round, in particular the .458s), but it doesn't make the action any stronger, nor does it need to be for factory loadings (which I personally very much like to best).

I'm curious how hot a handi rifle can be loaded in .45-70, you would assume really hot because a 500 smith is around 55,000 psi right?The .500S&W is a 50kPSI cartridge, and the NEF loading for .45-70Govt. is a Class II pressure loading (28kPSI) IIRC.

It is a lame cartridge in my book. All the bullets for it bleed energy faster than a .45-70 ever dreamed about, it is a pistol round first where a bc doesn't count for much. As a revolver cartridge it has retarded amounts of recoil. In general, a waste of time.I agree, but it would make a much better rifle cartridge than pistol, however I would rather have the .460S&W for rifle use due to its versatility (.45LC and .454Casull).

:)

Wanta B
December 30, 2009, 11:13 PM
I could see a good levergun converted to use the .500S&W being very nice in say,Alaska...espesialy coupled with a matching revolver. Low ballistic coefficient would be no worry there,as the large frontal face and raw energy at close range,ie BEAR,is desireable. Backup for fishing,etc. in that part of the world.

I know that I am kind of contradicting myself here:uhoh: but,to me,it is like the .358Win. and the .338Fed....One has better penitration and energy down range(.338Fed.) while the other(.358Win.) has better "slap" damage at close range while still having good penitration...Not quite the same as the .500SWvs. .45-70 but perhaps something to consider:scrutiny:.It comes down to what will they be used for.Again if I were in Alaska fishing,I'd go "cowboy commando" and have both handgun AND rifle use the .500SW----Possibly.

For me,in Afrika it IS the .45-70. Dangerous game=no worries,one shot kills are normal.:D

Wanta B
December 30, 2009, 11:16 PM
Not what the OP asked but hey tangents happen...Yeh the .460SW!!!!!! Weight,penitration,velocity AND multi cal.!!!

Maverick223
December 30, 2009, 11:29 PM
Yeh the .460SW!!!!!! Weight,penitration,velocity AND multi cal.!!!...and MUCH cheaper to reload for. ;)

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 12:23 AM
The 45-70 can and will penetrate deeper than a 458 Win Mag (and 460 Weatherby and 458 Lott and...all of them)...this has been proven.




Ridgerunner

Maybe if you take a soft point 458 WM/Lott or 460 Weatherby Magnum Vs. a "nuclear" 45-70 solid bullet....again, maybe

With both solid not a chance.....otherwise African Hunters would take a 45-70 in the dark continent and leave the exotic calibers at home..

Let's hope H&H doesn't read your post man....:eek::D

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 12:38 AM
With both solid not a chance.....otherwise African Hunters would take a 45-70 in the dark continent and leave the exotic calibers at home.Actually it is well documented that the faster rounds do not penetrate as far with solids (I imagine they do a little better with well constructed expanding bullets as the .45-70 will run out of steam after a while), however the .45-70 doesn't travel fast enough to induce hydrostatic shock (which typically presents itself at about 2350fps IIRC), and I imagine that has a great deal to do with the cartridge selection for large, dangerous critters. Also, the old loads for the .45-70 (when safari was more popular, and most of the NE cartridges were developed) was fairly anemic by African standards, as the loads were black powder or light nitrocellulose loads. This is no longer the case, and .45-70 is now being used on the dark continent with some success. As for me, I'll stick to ole trusty in a traditional NE flavor, thank you (if I ever went to Africa with the intent to hunt something big and mean that might hunt back).

:)

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2009, 12:51 AM
saturnV...you must not have read Garretts article.

The bullet was a 500 grain solid...in ALL rounds, same bullet.

The 45-70 penetrates more...a lot more.

And its not a "nuclear" load...not by any means. The loads with the right powders(several to choose from...RL7, RL10x, IMR 3031, IMR 4198 and similar) are around 38,000 psi and perfectly safe for a Marlin 1895.

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 01:08 AM
The FACT is that,today,the .45-70 is often loaded to power levels the original .375 H&H could only dream of...To which that original .375 HH did VERY well,obviously!! To say the "modern" .45-70 is incapable of taking anything walking on this planet with regularity is,well,WRONG!!!

With todays powders and projectiles my little .358Win. achieves more penitration than the original 375HH. Not power but penitration,tho' power is VERY close.

FACT!! Not fiction.(read PERIOD)

Please,PLEASE,read up on this,do real world feild tests, but stop spreading untrueths.

I am quite confident that should H&H Hunter---whom I would still like to make the aquaintance of---read this thread,they will agree.Given that is their call name here,I am sure they know the history and capability of the cartridge...

Mr_Pale_Horse
December 31, 2009, 01:14 AM
Dunno where or how you want to use it, but the 500 S&W is a legal deer cartridge in Indiana, and the 45-70 is illegal. Dunno if other states are as capricious.

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2009, 01:16 AM
Illegal???

Why???

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2009, 01:21 AM
Never mind Pale Horse...I see that the 30-30 is illegal too, after seeing that I don't even want to know why.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 01:23 AM
Dropped H&H a PM considering you guys have been speculating that he would say this or that...I figured I would give him to the opportunity to speak his piece...or not. He might not settle the argument...but he will settle "what he would say".

:)

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 01:28 AM
Outstanding!! I truely would like to hear their inpit.:)

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 01:30 AM
What in the world??!!!!!! Indiana,:eek:

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 01:34 AM
What in the world??!!!!!! IndianaEh, because the .45-70Govt. killed too many indjuns. JK, Hehehe. :evil:

Mr_Pale_Horse
December 31, 2009, 01:35 AM
Indiana only allows pistol cartridges of a longer barreled guns, mostly single shots or lever guns. I think the 35 Remington in a contender is legal, because that barrel is too short to get all the good out of that case.

That's why I hunt in Kentucky :D

Mr_Pale_Horse
December 31, 2009, 01:38 AM
Kentucky allows ANY centerfire.

25 ACP in a pocket pistol is legal :what:

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 01:39 AM
No .45-70 or 30-30 thats just weird/crazy:what:.I'm quite the USA mutt...1/4 being Native:neener:...I'm not pissed.:p:D

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 01:42 AM
I'm quite the USA mutt...1/4 being Native...I'm not pissed.Thanks...just jokin' around, I am part indjun as well (but only about 1/8 IIRC, so it doesn't really count). :)

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 01:48 AM
No worries Maverick223,ifn' we can't take a bit of ribn' its time to go home.:cool:

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 01:49 AM
WOW!!! Ok,.25ACP...just as weird in the other direction!:what:

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 01:53 AM
Just noticed there are 458 folks veiwing in rifle county!! Ha!Ha!:D

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 01:54 AM
I have already made a joke about American Indians in Indiana...there is probably another one in there about Hillbillies in Kentucky...but I leave that one alone. :neener:

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 02:20 AM
Where is the link to the Garrett article??

However a US Forest Service study about effectiveness of rifle rounds against big bears placed the 458 WM and the 460 Wby at the top and the 45-70 at position #17 :rolleyes:

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

There is no way in the world that if you take two identical undeformable bullets .45 cal of the same weight, the faster one will penetrate less...never ever.

The Garrett 45-70 +P Exiter can launch a 500 gr. slug at ~1600 fps where a 460 Wby can launch the same pill at 2600 fps....1000 fps more!!!

Garrett can play around with bullet styles to make impressive claims (like when they say that their 44 Magnum hardcast Hammerhead load can outpenetrate a 375 H&H...but if you read carefully, they mean a 270 gr. soft point .375 cal bullet)

Don't ever tell to an experienced African hunter that a 45-70 will outpenetrate a 460 Weatherby Magnum (all else being equal) if you do not want to be laughed at.....seriously....:rolleyes:

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 02:32 AM
However a US Forest Service study about effectiveness of rifle rounds against big bears placed the 458 WM and the 460 Wby at the top and the 45-70 at position #17I won't claim that it will outclass the big .458s (and I like 'em all), but the modern hot .45-70Govt. does much better than the Forest Service indicates, they only used the weaker loads that were and still are more common. For a .45-70 to perform as it should you need to select your loads carefully or ideally handload for it.

:)

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 02:33 AM
:banghead::rolleyes:

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 02:42 AM
A link to one of Garrett's articles is in a post above. #77.

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 02:46 AM
1983 the year of that USFS study.

Fired at a swimming pool of water the 5.56Nato thru' the .50BMG brake up within 6-8" or less....12ga slug and black powder muzzle loader 6-12' penitration.

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 03:07 AM
Wanta

That Garret page is not a test page but just a discussion page with no hard data...just conversation.

The US Forest Service study instead include all the info you need and the rankings (page #7 in the pdf link I enclosed)

#1 - 458 WM 510 gr. Type bullet RSP (Round Nose Soft Point), Velocity at 15 yards: 2074 fps, Expansion Ratio: 4.6, Penetration: 19 inches

#27 - 45-70 405 gr., Bullet Type RSP, Velocity at 15 yards: 1322 fps, Expansion Ratio: 2.1, Penetration: 15.8 inches

End of the story....really....

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 03:08 AM
1983 the year of that USFS study.Now there's your problem!

Fired at a swimming pool of water the 5.56Nato thru' the .50BMG brake up within 6-8" or less....12ga slug and black powder muzzle loader 6-12' [penetration].Don't believe that either...this was from a Mythbusters (who oft get firearms related "myths" wrong, or manage to simply conduct the test wrong from what I have seen) episode and they fired it at an angle, high velocity spitzer rounds tend to fragment or deflect when fired at a smooth surface at an angle. If fired straight down (like the shotgun was), there would have been much more penetration. I won't comment on whether it would have been more or less than the 12Ga./Muzzleloader, but it would certainly have been more that the result they arrived at. Simply not and apples to apples comparison of penetration. I can guarantee that the .50BMG will do a whole lot better than 6-8" of penetration with the proper projectiles.

:)

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 03:18 AM
End of the story....really...Not really...if you notice the faster .460Wby doesn't perform as well as the .458WM, this is because there is a Goldilocks velocity (I am not sure whether or not it remains the same with respect to caliber size, but it exists), that lies somewhere between a weak Trapdoor .45-70Govt. and the powerful .460Wby Magnum. There is evidence that the maximum penetration of a .458 caliber projectile is somewhere in the 1500-1800fps range, however this obviously does not provide as much energy transfer (assuming that the slug stops within the animal on the more powerful round, and is not wasted externally), and therefore a much larger temporary cavity (a result of hydrostatic shock) and perhaps permanent one (due to tumbling, expansion, and or fragmentation). Obviously the mass, shape, construction, and the diameter of the projectile also has a great deal to do with the terminal effect of the round, including but not limited to the amount of penetration.

One thing that is FACT, is that you can always load the .460Wby (and the .458WM/Lott, .450NE/NE #2, et al) to the velocity of the .45-70Govt. (with the same projectiles) to mimic its performance, but you cannot load the .45-70Govt. to mimic any of the aforementioned cartridges. :D

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 03:21 AM
More than likely true enough as our .50s will go thru' 55gal.drums of water 6barrels deep that I have seen.I'll have to check that out some how.Ideas?

However,I can also say that the high velocity rounds,allbeit at an angle,have messured up as I staited against the .12ga.s and the .60 muzzle loader floating around here.Tho' not always...sometimes the slow movers deflect too BUT they do not break up.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 03:27 AM
Ideas?More barrels? I have thought of using a old oil tank (used for heating homes), cut open to form a trough, shot from end to end, however if 6 bbls won't stop it that probably won't either. How did you shoot them? Long ways...or standing up side by side?

:)

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2009, 03:28 AM
saturn...

Its hard to explain...When hit with a faster bullet, the tissue has to move out of the way faster. This creates MUCH greater resistance on the bullet, thereby slowing it down at a faster rate.

The 45-70, purely by chance, strikes a near perfect balance in this...enough speed, enough weight.

I'm tired of trying to tell you, and regardless of what ANYBODY says...I have tested these bullets in 45-70 and 458 Win. Mag myself...the 45-70 penetrates more. Not a great deal more than the 458, but more. (Just like Garrett said they did...that article inspired my tests, which confirmed his results)

My tests were done using wet newspaper and phone books...not on live animals, but the results wouldn't be any different.

EDIT: And that #27 ranked load you speak of...was a 405 grain bullet. A 525 grain Piledriver at 1500 fps would be a whole other monster entirely... see the video in post #79.

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 03:41 AM
I,ve used my .45-70s,.458x2 1/6",.458WinMag and .460Wby....45-70 and .458x2 1/6" have the best penetration. Test media has been wet phone books,wet news paper,dead animals,live animals,wet plywood(.460 broke even on that one.)

Barrels were standing upright...My thoughts are that there may be some relationship with the water being in barrels rather than one large body?Perhaps the results would be different if say the side of a swimming pool were fired on?
This need not be an expensive pool,possibly even a "blow-up":p pool?8-10' diameter.

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 03:44 AM
A bit OT but I want to try a .416x2 1/16" Ruger.:scrutiny:

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2009, 03:47 AM
wet plywood(.460 broke even on that one.)

"Hard barrier"....sorta.

When you have to penetrate hard barriers more speed does help, hence the 460 "caught up" a little.

Bones are not hard barriers...solid wood, metal, glass and such are hard barriers.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 03:49 AM
A bit OT but I want to try a .416x2 1/16" Ruger.Sometime in the near future (when the gunsmith can squeeze me in), I will be rechambering my Browning 1885 High Wall to .45-120NE and begin loading at roughly .450NE specifications (should push a 450gr. solid to about 2400fps)...then I will be able to do a bit of experimenting of my own. :D

When you have to penetrate hard barriers more speed does helpAbsodagumlutely!...example .223Rem. penetrating steel (well) vs. tissue (not so good).

:)

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 03:52 AM
Ridgerunner


If you read that study, the 460 Wby performed worse than the 458 WM because the bullet fragmented.

Wanta

I agree with you that the bullet will encounter much more resistance at faster velocity and the gain in penetration would be way less than the velocity difference with a slower bullet may imply....however I find hard to believe that, assuming undeformable bullets (solids ARE NOT all the same...some bullets may behave as solid at 45-70 velocities but would deform at 460 Wby pace), the 45-70 would outpenetrate a 460 Wby.

A similar parallel can be done with simple air resistance...as you know the aerodynamic drag increase exponentially with velocity (the air getting out of the way)....a bullet flying at 3000 fps will not go 50% farther than the same bullet flying at 2000 fps......still it will go a bit farther.

If that is true, African hunters can save a lot of money in rifles and ammo and carry a fast repeating Marlin 1895 in 45-70 against Dumbo, Rhino and Cape Buffaloes.....why buying a slow bolt action rifle for $5000 and up with $10 a pop ammo when you can do a better job at 1/10 of the cost??

I wish H&H could pitch in with his considerable African experience.

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 04:10 AM
The leverguns are gaining in popularity here quite a bit with the curve rising quickly. Traditions as such change slowly...also as I staited in an earlier post I have a restomod '74 DodgeCharger (850hp,20mpg fwy)that was built for far less than the Euro Super cars it beats regularly but the folks that buy them like a certain "look".

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 04:12 AM
If that is true, African hunters can save a lot of money in rifles and ammo and carry a fast repeating Marlin 1895 in 45-70 against Dumbo, Rhino and Cape Buffaloes.....why buying a slow bolt action rifle for $5000 and up with $10 a pop ammo when you can do a better job at 1/10 of the cost?They would probably be just fine with a modern .45-70...however it doesn't impart nearly as much energy (especially if the faster one doesn't exit, but penetrates far enough to hit vitals), hydrostatic shock can be very important with some game (particularly cats from what I hear). I maintain that if I am afforded a hunt in Africa I will choose a large bore traditional African rifle (preferably an old cartridge such as the .470NE, but more likely a .416Rigby/.458Lott). My [future] .45-120NE should be more than adequate, however I wouldn't trust a single shot falling block against large, dangerous game.

Also FWIW you can get a perfectly acceptable "slow bolt action" in a traditional African chambering for much less than $5k (CZ has a good rifle for about $1k in all of the popular chamberings), also most hunters that are serious enough to go to Africa are reloaders and choose their load carefully to ensure proper performance. All of this is a moot point because the cost of the trip and hunt will far surpass the equipment necessary...and thus typically caters to "if you have to ask you can't afford it" crowd (not always, but often the case).

:)

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 04:15 AM
The leverguns are gaining in popularity here quite a bit with the curve rising quickly.I have heard similar rumors myself.

Speaking of "here", if I might be a little nosy: where is here and why are you there (I was guessing military service...due to the "Under my cover and in my boots Currently somewhere in Afrika" location). Feel free to not answer if you are not comfortable with the question.

:)

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 04:17 AM
also as I staited in an earlier post I have a restomod '74 DodgeCharger (850hp,20mpg fwy)that was built for far less than the Euro Super cars it beats regularly but the folks that buy them like a certain "look".


Be careful there....I love American muscle but......perform better in what sense?? Straight line??? What about on a track?? Top Speed?? Handling?? Brakes??

A little Lotus Elise (with a puny 200 HP, Honda 4 Cyl engine) asswhipped a Mustang 500 GT real good on a track and a mountain road.

However a Corvette Z06 (one of the very few real American exotic with the Viper, the GT-40 and the Saleen S7) can beat on a track a Ferrari 430 for less than 1/3 the cost....

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 04:24 AM
Maverick


However the hydrostatic shock theory has never been proven and it is object of active debate.

I agree about the "marketing" and perception aspect of the African safari equipment market...given the cost for the trip, the equipment makers can be a bit heavy handed in pricing.

When it comes to cats, many experience African hunters (including the South African former owner of my beautiful sporterized Mauser 98 in 30-06), especially the ones that live in that part of the world, agree that the 375 H&H minimum requirement for cats is ridiculous.

Countless numbers have been dispatched very effectively with the good old 303 British and the 270 Winchester decades ago was considered adequate lion medicine. Many love the 7mm Rem Mag for Simba.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 04:29 AM
When it comes to cats, many experience African hunters (including the South African former owne of my beautiful sporterized Mauser 98 in 30-06), especially the one that live in that area, agree that the 375 H&H minimum requirement for cats is ridiculous. Countless numbers have been dispatched very effectively with the good old 303 British and the 270 Winchester decades ago was considered adequate lion medicine. Many love the 7mm Rem Mag for Simba.I have heard likewise...but the good ole '06 also has enough velocity to have hydrostatic shock...so I guess you can say: if it is a marketing ploy, or a figment of someones imagination, I'm buying (for dangerous game). As Weatherby said: "speed kills"...although he did go a little crazy on just about all of his magnum cartridges IMO.

I do not claim to be an expert on the subject, nor have all of the answers, I know a little about dangerous game (mostly hearsay and testing) but in the end I am just as opinionated as anyone else...right or wrong, I like what I like. :)

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 04:45 AM
Saturno---Quite right,it does all depend.My charger uses Bear 6 pistons on the front 4 piston on the rear 13" both ends.No longer uses torsion bars,now coilovers,etc. Coatings on engine internals,twin turbo,426 hemi that is TPSEFI,5spd out of a '91 Toyota Turbo Supra(Auzzies and Kiwis swear by them and it has been living behind this motor for 15,000+ miles),3" dual exhaust with x-pipe,Aero mufflers and electric cut-outs to the resonators,51/49 front/back weight dis.Mini tubs to frame,subframed,caged,275r17 front,315r17 rears...'71 RT louverd powerbulge hood,'71 RT tailights,'71 inset side marker lights,Semi Flat Black with Custom Gloss Black Super Bee stripes.Black leather and aluminum interior. All work except engine coatings done by me and my freinds.Lambos are in my dust regardless...Lotus in the slalomn they can beat me but not often...I love to drive!!!:evil:

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 04:50 AM
LOL...quite,don't we all have our opinions!!Could not have said it better.For better or worse,right or wrong,we all got 'em.Keeps it interesting.:)

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 04:55 AM
Interesting story Wanna B...I have considered taking an Civil Engineering job overseas to help fund my hobbies (mainly the gun collection)...but am indecisive and have not found the right position.

:)

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 05:11 AM
Yah,sometimes ya' just gota' jump in and do it,see if its for you or not.

Could easily fund/go on Safari tho'...

coloradokevin
December 31, 2009, 06:03 AM
Where is the link to the Garrett article??

However a US Forest Service study about effectiveness of rifle rounds against big bears placed the 458 WM and the 460 Wby at the top and the 45-70 at position #17

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

There is no way in the world that if you take two identical undeformable bullets .45 cal of the same weight, the faster one will penetrate less...never ever.

Respectfully,

I'd ask that you refer to page 13 of the article that you just linked us to, then reconsider the portion of your post that I highlighted! I have to admit that this is news to me, as I always sort of assumed that faster bullets would penetrate deeper, all else being equal.

But, I read the article you linked me to, and on page 13 of that article they state in the first paragraph of the center column:

"In general we found that bullet penetration decreased as striking velocity increased."

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 01:37 PM
In general we found that bullet penetration decreased as striking velocity increased."


Yes because, if you read the report, they used soft point bullets not solids...mystery solved...:)

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 01:38 PM
Yah,sometimes ya' just gota' jump in and do it,see if its for you or not.We will see...but I don't believe I am not ready to commit to it presently.

In general we found that bullet penetration decreased as striking velocity increased.
they used soft point bullets not solids...mystery solved...Interesting, however this was not the case with respect to the trapdoor .45-70 loads; however, I believe it would be completely different if they had used a more powerful loading with a heavy solid slug.

:)

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 02:03 PM
The solids we used on the elephants(dead already),did not deform,any of them.So I do not know how to make it any clearer...there is a "sweet spot" for speed and penetration.

So...just got word from a freind of mine back in the states.He used my FN Muaser .460Wby and his Marlin 1895 Cowboy. Both using 500gr. solids against two blocks of ballistic gel,one each,18"x18"x6'.

Both made it all the way thru',end to end!!...drum roll...
The 460Wby had a much larger balloon to the wound channel at first but tapered of quickly to near bullet diameter at exit.
The .45-70 had a narrower ballon but was sustainded nearly unchanged thru' till the softball sized exit.

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2009, 02:10 PM
All right I was actually studying some stuff for work and have deliberately been trying to avoid wasting any time on the net. But now you rotten SOB's have gone and done it and I am going to have to waste some time!:D;)

So here's my take on this.

First off the original question the S&W .500 vs .45-70. The hottest load I can find for a .500 S&W is the 440 gr Corbon @1625 FPS That's a pretty hot pistol round no doubt. And it's a pistol round. Like all handgun rounds it suffers from a severe lack of powder capacity and it will never be a pimple on a center fire rifle rounds behind.

Does that mean that the S&W .500 out of a rifle wouldn't be a cool little blaster that would be perfectly awesome for close range hog and even black bear hunting? No it doesn't not in the least. But whoever said that the .500 S&W would be a better choice for African dangerous game needs to drop his crack pipe and proceed directly to the nearest rehab center. The .500S&W on dangerous game is a stunt. The round even out of a rifle is hard pressed to make 3,000 Ftlbs at the muzzle (very hard pressed) not mention the 4,000 ft lbs required for thick skinned DG hunting in almost every African country that allows hunting. And it is highly recommended that you use a bullet that has a minimum sectional density of .300 or greater. And that brings us to the fabled and often spoken of .45-70.


Here are the facts.. Did you guys ever used to watch Saturday Night Live when they had the skit called "the gay, communist, gun club"? The shtick was to get into the club you had to gay, a communist and like shooting guns, no exceptions allowed. Well in Africa there is a another club kind of like that but it is called minimum legal requirements to hunt thick skinned dangerous game. And to play in that club you must have the following prerequisites no exceptions allowed.

1. A minimum bore diameter of .375. Or in Zimbabwe 9.3mm (.366).

2. A minimum muzzle energy of 4,000 Ftlbs at the muzzle or in Zimbabwe 3950Ftlbs.

That's it, pretty simple huh?

Now lets see if our fabled .45-70 is able to join the club

1. Bore diameter .458..Check!

2. Minimum muzzle energy of 4,000 Ftlbs..Whoopps!!

Even the hottest Garret loads don't make it.

Now I know we are going to jump all over me because of the penetration issue. Yes the .45-70 with heavy hard cast loads penetrates very well. Yes there has been a number of African DG taken with it. Yes those who did it were doing so illegally except for Mr. Vince Luppo who did his amazing feats inside a high fenced game farm in South Africa:rolleyes: which made it legal to hunt with his .45-70. And yes the .45-70 is capable of cleanly killing a variety of DG with the right loads as is a .50 Cal muzzle loader based on the same principles.

The .45-70 however can not be relied on to adequately penetrate on a frontal brain shot on a BULLelephant as has been proven by several PH's who shoot a lot of elephant . Which makes it a very marginal weapon to carry in real life no BS DG country.

Randy Garret sells ammo in particular he sells .45-70 ammo he has a vested interest in promoting his product, keep that in mind when you read his "scientific" studies. For years people have been touting the test where his 530 gr HC out penetrated a .416 Rigby. Of course the .416 was using a soft point expanding bullet. The other thing that Mr. Garret conveniently likes to leave out is that often the faster round haven't stopped penetrating rather they've left the medium earlier IE they went off course and exited. And in those tests it's usually a round nosed bullet verses a flat nosed in the .45-70.

I've personally seen a round nosed Woodleigh 400 gr out of a .416 Rigby enter the hind quarter of a big bull cape buff smash the hip and exit out the throat. Is that enough penetration for you?

In a .458 Lott I've personally shot buff up the rear and found the round nosed solid bullet under the skin of the neck. That's a good solid eight to ten feet of penetration. a .470 NE does about the same. the last buffalo I shot with a .470 I hit with a 500 gr X Bullet in the on shoulder I found that bullet under the skin in the opposite hip.

There was a test done on a device called the iron buffalo. It is series of Plywood boards inter spaced with water compartments. In that medium which is set up to more closely approximate the density of heavy animal tissue and bone the higher velocity .458's with similar solids in similar shapes absolutely smoked the lower velocity .45-70 rounds. The frontal brain shot tests on a wet big bull elephant skulls with the .45-70 tend to bear this out.

In summary here's my take on the .45-70 on Dg issue. First off the myths.

"The .45-70 in a modern loading can nearly approximate the .458 WM"

B.S! The .45-70 with a 400 gr load can get close to what a .458WM will do with a 500 grload apples and oranges guys. The .458 WM is an honest 5,000 ftlb round a true stopper. the .45-70 can eek out an energy level somewhere in the mid to high 3,000 range and with total thermo nuclear load in a Ruger Number one you can just get it to edge 4,000Ftlbs with a 400gr bullet which of course is seriously lacking the SD needed for true reliability on DG. With a 500gr bullet a .45-70 can't carry a .458's panties to the laundry. Not even close.

"The .45-70 will out penetrate a higher velocity .458 mag"

B.S again all of the "tests" have been either a solid with a square nosed profile out of the .45-70 verses a soft point expander in the .458 mag or it's been with round nosed bullet. And it's been in a medium that would benefit from lower velocity like wet paper or water cans not one that truly tests the bullets ability to penetrate a medium that replicates the structure of an animal like an elephant. To really get a true test of penetration the following needs to be done. A series of bullets needs to be fired into a variety of mediums. The bullets need to be of similar shape a construction and the shooters need to be non biased and competent so that one round isn't accidentally started off at slight angle to skew the data. If one round does veer off and exit that needs to be taken into account and either re fired or found to see why it did so.


I've killed a lot of game with .45-70's with all kinds of bullets from Garret loads to regular old Remington 405 gr soft points. The .45-70 is a smasher on lighter game no two ways about it. Even on heavy game it is a very efficient killer with the right loads. But in my experience it doesn't even come close to the effect that a true heavy like a .470NE has on game. A .470NE hitting a big feral hog is a sight to behold it hits with extreme authority it absolutely crushes them to the ground. A .45-70 with the hottest loads simply doesn't have the same smack.

Here's something for you to mull over, I can always load my .470NE or my .458 Lott down to 1500 fps with a 500 gr bullet but can never in your wildest dreams load your .45-70 up 600 to 800 FPS to match my .458 Lott.

In closing is the .45-70 capable of killing DG? Of course it is so is a .303 or an 8MM or whatever given the perfect situation. Is the .45-70 a true DG caliber? Not only no but not in your wildest dreams should it be considered as a serious choice in DG country and in particular in elephant country. I have never met or do I know of any DG PH's who would carry one professionally as a stopping rifle with clients present. That statement does not include several South African game farm PH's who carry them, once again apples and oranges.

There you go that's my take on it.

PS

Do I have a problem with anyone hunting DG or carrying a .45-70 in DG country. Nope not in the least. It's your dime it's your time go knock yourself out. And if you really want to try it out go do it then come back and tell me all about it until then it's just a comic version of the truth.

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 03:16 PM
Excellent!!

Quite true the rounds we used were round nose.They were solids tho'...no idea how much of a difference the round nose makes tho'.

Not sure how wet paper or water barrels favors one or the other but more than open to in put.

That Iron Buffalo sounds great. I will set myself to making some.

I do not feel biased in favor of the .45-70,tho' I do beleave it very capable...much like .308Win. is too elk,bear,moose. My personal favorite is .416 Rigby...I have a soft spot for .416 Taylor as it was my first "African" chambered weapon.

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 03:26 PM
My thing at this point is what are the true penetration capabilities of these cartridges. Not jumping on you about this,just realy want to know.

No doubt the others mentioned are more powerful...wound chanel in ballistic gell.

Interesting "club"...certainly the PH would have the anchor to back up the client.


Sorry about the spotty/random replies.

Gryffydd
December 31, 2009, 03:57 PM
Velocity has everything to do with pressure.
Nope. It has something to do with pressure. "Everything" implies a 1:1 relationship that's just not there. Yes, ALL things being equal more pressure=more velocity. However, things are very rarely ever equal.

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2009, 04:01 PM
My thing at this point is what are the true penetration capabilities of these cartridges.

Wanta b,

Don't worry about jumping on me I'm used to it.;) And I sure don't take it that way I enjoy your coherent and well written response.

Here is an interesting outcome form the elephant carcass penetration test.



Posted 30 October 2009 09:51 Hide Post
Michael,

If you look at my reported results with 450gr FN North Forks and 500gr RN Woodleighs on elephant heads and bodies, which we have discussed before, you will note that the Woodleigh is loaded to higher portential than the NF. The heavier Woodleigh has more enregy as well, but the NF out penetrates it by something on order of your observed 35%. I can't accurately calculate the % difference I've observed since so many NF's exit that it skews results downward.

My requirements for solids is for them to get where they need to go, regardless of what they must penetrate. After they get to where they must go, I am not too concerned about the rest of their trip, though more straight line penetration is favorable. That is why I use Woodleighs for first shots on eles. I have never recovered one with nose damage, so I am confident that they will breach the bone they must on brain shots. Not so with NF's. I have recovered NF's with divoted noses and I know one veered, albeit mildly - maybe 8" over about 54", with most curve being in the last 2' of penetration. Nevertheless, I fear the veer!, even though I know that FN's will provide significantly greater penetration. Veering on a second shot to the heart or lungs is close to irrelevant since the target is so very large and penetration at a premium for these second and subsequent shots, which may be at some considrable quartering away angle.

On bullet length, think boats. The longer the waterline length, the faster a boat will go given the same power, up to a point. Then weight and friction will intervene. On the other hand, the longer a bullet the more spin it need to remain stable in air to flesh transition. GS Custom's web site has much on this topic worth reading. Same shape bullets, etc, etc, with different results. For their bullets shorter is better down to a point, and then physics and SD take over.

As for velocity, your observations contradict mine, but mine are more limited because the velocities I have used are within a tigher boundary. For, say, the 500gr 458 Woodleigh RN, increasing velocity from ~2025fps or so to ~2145fps makes a world of difference in penetration.

Also, according to others who report their results on eles, the increase in penetration for the same bullets is significant when you jump from ~2100fps to 2300fps.

Common sense tells me that early disipation of energy from a higher velocity bullet cannot alter the performance of the bullet once its energy has dropped to that reflective of the impact velocity of the slower bullet - assuming like bullets. So, a bullet raveling at, say, 2400fps strikes the target and begins to penetrate. It is also disipating energy faster than a slower bullet would by displacing more non permanent wound channel tissue. But it slows to the velocity of the second, slower bullet at impact. The second bullet and the first will behave exactly the same from the point where they have eqaul velocity, but the first bullet will already have penetrated some distance. The faster bullet will ALWAYS penetrate further, all else being equal, including stabilization at transition, which naturally favors the faster bullet.

Also, FWIW, flat noses, at least truncated cone flat noses, favor velocity, with apparently non-linear gains in penetration reflected as velocity increases. At least that is my take. Not enough comparative data to be sure. Seems to be one reason lighter, faster but less energy potential possessing flat noses out penetrate heavier more enegry potential possessing RN's. Like my Woodleigh 500's vs my NF 450's.

JPK

Wanta B
December 31, 2009, 04:19 PM
Quick thought on flat vs. round...could it be that the flatnose "grabs" tissue more effectively,then,as with hollow points, an umbrella of sorts is created that directs the tissue farther to the sides and out of the way,of the projectile.There by allowing a truer,farther penetration track do to less deflection at impact and less drag during bysection? Where as with a round nose,if not straight on has more deflection at impact,then rapidly less and more drag on the sides of the projectile due to the tissue "slipping" around it?:scrutiny:

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2009, 04:28 PM
Wanta,

Yeah pretty much my take on it and it's been shown that wide meplate flat nose bullet penetrate better than round nosed and like to be pushed faster.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 05:08 PM
All right I was actually studying some stuff for work and have deliberately been trying to avoid wasting any time on the net. But now you rotten SOB's have gone and done it and I am going to have to waste some time!Glad I could help. :p

But whoever said that the .500 S&W would be a better choice for African dangerous game needs to drop his crack pipe and proceed directly to the nearest rehab center.Hehehe...so you're saying that it WOULDN'T be your first choice for a bull elephant? :confused: :evil:

2. Minimum muzzle energy of 4,000 Ftlbs..Whoopps!!My loads get close...but still wouldn't dream of using it (300gr. at about 2400fps), way too light/SD for my taste.

Here's something for you to mull over, I can always load my .470NE or my .458 Lott down to 1500 fps with a 500 gr bullet but can never in your wildest dreams load your .45-70 up 600 to 800 FPS to match my .458 Lott.

In closing is the .45-70 capable of killing DG? Of course it is so is a .303 or an 8MM or whatever given the perfect situation. Is the .45-70 a true DG caliber? Not only no but not in your wildest dreams should it be considered as a serious choice in DG country and in particular in elephant country. I have never met or do I know of any DG PH's who would carry one professionally as a stopping rifle with clients present. That statement does not include several South African game farm PH's who carry them, once again apples and oranges.

Common sense tells me that early disipation of energy from a higher velocity bullet cannot alter the performance of the bullet once its energy has dropped to that reflective of the impact velocity of the slower bullet - assuming like bullets. So, a bullet raveling at, say, 2400fps strikes the target and begins to penetrate. It is also disipating energy faster than a slower bullet would by displacing more non permanent wound channel tissue. But it slows to the velocity of the second, slower bullet at impact. The second bullet and the first will behave exactly the same from the point where they have eqaul velocity, but the first bullet will already have penetrated some distance. The faster bullet will ALWAYS penetrate further, all else being equal, including stabilization at transition, which naturally favors the faster bullet.Makes perfect sense when (and only when) using SOLIDs...which I would bet any amount of money the studies I have read did not do...making it a moot point, as expanding rounds are of limited or no use on large, dangerous game (at least to me).

One final question, H&H: I am getting ready to purchase a .375H&H and in the next month or so (when my gunsmith has the time to perform the work) rechamber my falling block .45-70Govt. to .45-120NE (should drive a 450gr. solid to a minimum of approx. 2400fps)...what projectiles would you recommend for each (for dangerous game)?

The ones that I have picked out so far are as follows: Woodleigh 350gr. RN FMJ and/or Barnes Banded Solid FN (wide meplat) 300gr. for the .375H&H; and 450gr. Barnes Banded Solids FN (wide meplat) 450gr. for the .45-120NE. Does this look about right to you...or would you recommend a Woodleigh RN FMJ for both?

H&H, thank you so much for joining in...it has been very informative and was well worth disturbing your slumber. :P

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 05:09 PM
Quick thought on flat vs. round...could it be that the flatnose "grabs" tissue more effectively,then,as with hollow points, an umbrella of sorts is created that directs the tissue farther to the sides and out of the way,of the projectile.There by allowing a truer,farther penetration track do to less deflection at impact and less drag during bysection? Where as with a round nose,if not straight on has more deflection at impact,then rapidly less and more drag on the sides of the projectile due to the tissue "slipping" around it?Pretty much my understanding is that a FN projectile with a wide meplat crushes the tissue with authority rather than simply pushing through it, this is caused by cavitation at the nose of the bullet.

:)

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2009, 06:50 PM
The 4,000 ft.lbs is a "road block" for the 45-70...no matter the bullet weight, it maxes out at around 3,600 ft. lbs.

Gryffydd
December 31, 2009, 06:59 PM
The 4,000 ft.lbs is a "road block" for the 45-70...no matter the bullet weight, it maxes out at around 3,600 ft. lbs.
Hodgdon's data maxes out at 4200 ft.lbs for "Modern Rifles" and 3,900 ft. lbs for Lever Actions.

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2009, 07:05 PM
Thats about right...like I said "around" 3,600 ft. lbs. (referring to lever actions).

I expect a hot loaded Marlin Cowboy could make the 4,000 mark with the right load.

I say 3,600 because I like to keep my loads (per Hodgdens site) to around 38,000 cup (which is about 40,000 psi... a bit under the MAX for a margin of safety))

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2009, 07:18 PM
One final question, H&H: I am getting ready to purchase a .375H&H and in the next month or so (when my gunsmith has the time to perform the work) rechamber my falling block .45-70Govt. to .45-120NE (should drive a 450gr. solid to a minimum of approx. 2400fps)...what projectiles would you recommend for each (for dangerous game)?

M223,

You really can't go wrong with any of the choices you've already mentioned. In my .375H&h I use 300gr Barnes TSX and BBS. IN the .450-120 the same in a .450 Gr choice would be great as would any selection from North Fork, Woodleigh Swift A-frame ETC ETC.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hodgdon's data maxes out at 4200 ft.lbs for "Modern Rifles".

Gryffydd,

I know that you can just edge 4,000 Ft lbs in a 400 gr bullet with a Ruger #1 or Siamese Mauser. Of course the 400 gr projectile is well under the 300 SD recommended as a minimum. The problem comes when you step up to a 450 or 500 grain bullet. A 400 gr bullet is way to light o be counted on with thick skinned heavy boned DG. The poor old .45-70 just doesn't have enough case capacity to push those bullet at enough velocity to make the numbers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here is a wake up call. Some of the most experienced elephant hunters on the planet who regularly back up clients on elephant in thick cover all recommend a .50 cal or larger firing a 570gr bullet or larger at over 2,000 FPS. Johan Calitz uses a .500 NE, Ivan Carter uses a .577, Jeff Rand uses a .577 for dedicated elephant work. They all say that if you are in a really big jam with a elephant at close range these is the power level required to turn an elephant with a missed brain head shot. Most agree that the various .458's and .470 class rifles are to light and don't deliver enough thump to relied on at close quarters with big bull elephant. This of course is for sport hunting culling is an entirely different mind set.

I don't want you guys to read this and think that I am the final authority on any of this stuff. These are just my observations and the information I am throwing out there is for your enjoyment and for the purpose of provoking thought and possibly increasing your knowledge data base when referring to this type of hunting. There are tons of different educated opinions out there non of which are definitively right or wrong there and that's what keeps the world an interesting place.:)

At the end of the day if you get into the shiz with a big dangerous critter you'd better have an adequate, dead reliable rifle and caliber combination capable of reaching the goods from any angle. that leaves a lot of options open guys. Have fun choosing and then have more fun becoming deadly instinctive with your chosen weapon. For me that is either a heavy caliber double or bolt gun. My primary DG rifles are a .470NE double a .404 Jeffery bolt and a .458 Lott.My Lott is on loan to a writer and I haven't seen it back in several years.:fire: I am also having a .450-400 double built as we speak and my back up "light" rifle in DG country is a .375H&H. Which is minimal yet adequate and legal for DG.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 07:44 PM
I say 3,600 because I like to keep my loads (per Hodgdens site) to around 38,000 cup (which is about 40,000 psi... a bit under the MAX for a margin of safety))Perhaps I am calculating something a bit wrong...but my loads for my .45-70 should well exceed 40kPSI (fine for my particular rifle...good way to blow up others), and I came up with about 3900ft/lbs of energy with a 300gr. projectile...the larger (really longer) the projectile the less powder without significantly increasing pressure (due to the smaller case volume)...and therefore less energy or DANGEROUS conditions. I really do need to invest in a nice chrony so I can pinpoint my velocity, but I am running 62gr. of RL-7 with a 300gr. slug out of a 28" bbl (try this at your own risk peril :uhoh:).

You really can't go wrong with any of the choices you've already mentioned. In my .375H&h I use 300gr Barnes TSX and BBS. IN the .450-120 the same in a .450 Gr choice would be great as would any selection from North Fork, Woodleigh Swift A-frame ETC ETC.Thank you for the advice, I have been thinking about it for a while, but haven't really decided whether I want bone crushing mass or smaller projectiles that offer a boost in speed and therefore hydrostatic shock. IMO the .375H&H is a no-brainer (not to suggest it is incapable of a effective brainer...:D), as it offers enough speed for any reasonable weight, so go with something at least 300gr. and preferably a little heavier.

My Lott is on loan to a writer and I haven't seen it back in several years.Sounds like instead of buying a new .375H&H all I need to do is "borrow" one from you. :evil:

Gryffydd
December 31, 2009, 07:44 PM
So... Nobody using the .50 BMG over there? :D

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 07:47 PM
So... Nobody using the .50 BMG over there?You can always download...a lot (go from one canister of powder per round...to a little...only a half). :D

Gryffydd
December 31, 2009, 07:48 PM
You can always download...a lot.
Well, then what would the payoff be for lugging around a 30lb rifle?

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 07:49 PM
Well, then what would the payoff be for lugging around a 30lb rifle?Bodybuilding. :p

I am not advocating the use of it (as I am sure you aren't either)...just pickin'.

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 07:51 PM
H&H

I'm glad you put some sanity in this thread!! Amen to that!!

Thank you!!


I was trying to say the same thing you did over and over and these gentlemen would non budge....finally they came to their senses.

So guys, again for the -nth time over and over....all else being equal (bullet shape, solid, etc..) the faster round penetrate better...got that???!!! :eek: There is no "goldilocks speed" and nonsense like that...

There is no way in the world that a 45-70 would match a 458 or a 460, again and again, all else being equal.

Yes, flat nose Vs. round nose is different in my book.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 07:58 PM
all else being equal (bullet shape, solid, etc..) faster round penetrate better...got that?Still if it is a expanding bullet (for both high and low velocity rounds) the lower velocity round may very well penetrate more due to excessive expansion, yawing/tumbling and/or fragmentation...but with well constructed solids I cannot fathom how the faster round would not penetrate further in virtually any medium.

:)

Gryffydd
December 31, 2009, 08:02 PM
I saw a test a while back where various rounds were fired into sandbags. The .45ACP penetrated much further than a .30-06, both using FMJ ammunition. There are plenty of times when more speed means less penetration due to fragmentation etc. The situation under discussion isn't one of them...

saturno_v
December 31, 2009, 08:10 PM
Still if it is a expanding bullet (for both high and low velocity rounds) the lower velocity round may very well penetrate more due to excessive expansion, yawing/tumbling and/or fragmentation...but with well constructed solids I cannot fathom how the faster round would not penetrate further in virtually any medium.



Finally...amen to that....it took time though...;)

With expanding bullet you have to take in consideration the intended velocity to avoid overexpansion...we already did talk about that...

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2009, 08:15 PM
Still if it is a expanding bullet (for both high and low velocity rounds) the lower velocity round may very well penetrate more due to excessive expansion, yawing/tumbling and/or fragmentation...but with well constructed solids I cannot fathom how the faster round would not penetrate further in virtually any medium.

BINGO we have a winner. That's why a 180 Ballistic tip put of a .30-06 is a winner on game the same round out of a .300 WBY can be very finicky the impact velocity is simply above the design capability of the bullet in the Weatherby.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 08:18 PM
Finally...amen to that....it took time though..Hey don't look at me...I said either (.500S&W or .45-70Govt. in any iteration) wasn't good 'nuff (WRT large, dangerous game) for me a few decades ago here...
What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt. (trapdoor load), and will have a inferior sectional density and ballistic coefficient due to the larger caliber and equivalent (or lesser) mass. That said I don't believe either are good for large dangerous game (on the order of Cape Buff, Rhino, Hippo, Elephant, et al)

BINGO we have a winner.Ooooh...what do I get...a new, shiny .375H&H bolt gun? :D

coosbaycreep
December 31, 2009, 09:19 PM
I'm too lazy to read through all 7 pages of this thread, so if I'm saying something that's already been posted, sorry.

I got a marlin 45-70 right about the time I got a handi rifle in .500mag. I sold the 45-70 shortly after.

You can get bullets ranging from 300grains to 700 grains for .500 mag, and it is fairly accurate with all weights of bullets I tried.

500mag in a rifle has more power than any 45-70 load other than 500gr ruger no.1 loads, and for what a ruger no.1 costs, you can buy 3 handi rifles...or a no. 1 in .458 lott.

500mag reaches the same velocities with 350gr bullets as a .458 does, but it doesn't do so hot with 500gr.

My hottest load for 500mag is 350grains at 2,385fps, which equates to 4,422 lbs of knockdown. With 700gr bullets it's 1,373fps. 500gr is 1,486fps.

500mag may not be a .458, but unless you have a ruger no.1 or something similar, the .500mag is capable of more power than .45-70, and is probably cheaper to shoot. I have yet to have to throw out a piece of 500mag brass yet, and some of them are on their sixth or seventh reload with max or near max loads. I don't know how much powder 45-70 uses, but 500mag only uses about 25-50grains, and pistol powder is cheaper than rifle powder last time I checked.

For the money, I'd take a 500mag handi rifle over any .45-70.

hydraulicman
December 31, 2009, 09:25 PM
45-70 is just plain cool

500 mag is the new hotness

I'd go with the 45/70 it will kill anything the 500 will

45/70 is legendary

elmerfudd
December 31, 2009, 11:39 PM
The way I see it, if you've got more energy and more momentum, you've got the potential for greater penetration. That doesn't necessarily mean you will actually get it with any two similar bullets however. A bullet that penetrates great at 1500 fps might fragment or mushroom at 2500. If you find the correct bullet however, then the extra energy and momentum WILL give it an edge every time.

Look at it this way. If the "Goldilocks" velocity is 1700 fps, then a bullet traveling 2500 fps will have already penetrated quite a few inches when it reaches the Goldilocks velocity and at that point it can still match the remaining penetration of the 1700 fps cartridge.

H&Hhunter
January 1, 2010, 02:38 AM
500mag reaches the same velocities with 350gr bullets as a .458 does, but it doesn't do so hot with 500gr.

My hottest load for 500mag is 350grains at 2,385fps, which equates to 4,422 lbs of knockdown. With 700gr bullets it's 1,373fps. 500gr is 1,486fps.

Two questions,

1. What does a .458 WM do with a 350 gr bullet? Answer about 2500 fps. So no the .500 S&W does NOT match the .458 in velocity, ever no way no how. You are using Garret logic here.

2. A 350 gr Load @ 2,385 fps!! Have you ever actually chronoed that load? Man oh man you've got yourself a man portable shoulder held in your face hand grenade there my friend. And all that velocity with a sectional density of less than .200. You are claiming over 500fps gain over the hottest loads listed I realize that these are probably form a pistol but 500FPS is a whole heck of a lot of gain. Are you sure about those numbers?



http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500%20SqqqW%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source

Wanta B
January 1, 2010, 02:42 AM
Sorry,I have to make this quick...

I think that we all could very well be talking about nearly the same things hear...Please refere to my posts #s 68,76,92,119 and 137. Hopefully they can speak for the lack of time in this reply.:o

For me,respectfully,I must still voice some disagreement however...

Several of us had heard of this penetration deal,so we gave it some field trials on our owne.Results were as I staited.Now,with first hand accounts that contradict everything we had held true some of us are trying to find out how this can be.That is why,instead of saying my piece and going on down the road,so to speak,I keep chiming in here.I am looking for answers not arguements.

As to the .45-70...I have not said it is more powerful,does more damage nor the ideal cartridge for DG. I look at it as what the .308Win. is to Elk,Moose and Bear.It has and will work and with regularity.Modern loads are still more powerful than the original .375HH. I do not know about penetration,yet.I will give it a go as time allows.

A PH has an aspect to their job that I do not nor does a recreational hunter looking for a thrill. The PH must,repeat,MUST be able to stop dead a charging animal to protect the client.No doubt the other cartridges are better suited for that task.

Talk to you all later,gota' go.

Regards
Want B

H&Hhunter
January 1, 2010, 02:47 AM
A PH has an aspect to their job that I do not nor does a recreational hunter looking for a thrill. The PH must,repeat,MUST be able to stop dead a charging animal to protect the client.No doubt the other cartridges are better suited for that task.


Yep pretty much what I have to say about it too. You and I are in agreement. However from personal experience I can promise you that you should never trust a PH to solve your problems for you. I've had to dig myself out before. Therefore my take on what makes a suitable DG rifle.

Maverick223
January 1, 2010, 05:11 AM
A 350 gr Load @ 2,385 fps!! Have you ever actually chronoed that load? Man oh man you've got yourself a man portable shoulder held in your face hand grenade there my friend.Just checked Lyman's 49th Ed. and it lists the maximum load of a .500S&W (out of a 15" break action rifle barrel) using a 350gr. JHP projectile as 1869fps...that is 500fps over max, so something is very wrong...or if attempted is about to be. :uhoh:

FWIW the sectional density of the aforementioned bullet is .200, and the maximum SD is .280 (in a 500gr. JFP), which is still mediocre, and translates to mediocre penetration. By comparison the 500gr. RN .458cal bullet has a respectable SD of .341 (and the lowly 450gr. is even .306). Poor penetration, due to a poor SD, is why the US military abandoned the .50caliber rifle (.50-70Govt.) after only 7yrs of service (by comparison the .45-70 soldiered on for nearly 20 yrs., and was not fully replaced for an additional 20yrs, when the .30-03 was introduced). I am inclined to believe the .500S&W may suffer the same fate as the .50-70, but the additional velocity (the .50-70 was never modernized to shoot nitrocellulose) may help somewhat.

:)

H&Hhunter
January 1, 2010, 12:48 PM
If a guy really wants a .50 cal lever gun that is short and handy go get a .50 Alaskan. That round is actually pretty darn impressive.

coosbaycreep
January 1, 2010, 06:21 PM
I've chronographed almost all of my loads, and a decent variety of factory 500mag ammo too.

The 350gr load at 2,385fps was a speer UCSP with 48.5gr of lil gun. The max charge listed in the speer manual is 49.0gr. There was no sign of overpressure. The handi rifle has a 22" barrel IIRC. The speer manual lists 1739fps with 49.0gr using a 8.875" barrel. The also list 1667fps with the starting charge for this bullet with lil gun at 45.0gr. I got 2302fps with 45.0gr. I individually weigh every charge too, mainly because my powder measure won't throw a consistent charge.

A lot of the rounds I've chronied, especially the factory ammo, doesn't gain as much velocity as it should. (If the theory of 50fps gain for every extra 1" of barrel length is suppose to be true). Some of them impress me, but some are pretty disappointing. Either way, 500mag is a whole lot of gun that doesn't seem to be getting the respect it deserves.

As for the 500 not reaching 458win velocities with a 350gr bullet; the speer manual lists
max. charge velocities ranging from 2,314-2,593fps, so 2,385fps from the 500mag isn't that far off, especially since it uses about a third less powder, is bigger in diameter, and isn't a rifle caliber to begin with.

I know nothing about sectional density, penetration, or how much of an effect any of this has on hunting, but I do know that 500mag has more power than any load a .45-70 handi rifle can handle, and only a ruger no.1/siamese mauser/etc is capable of higher velocities with heavier bullets. I also doubt there's enough of a difference in the price to shoot it if you reload too, and if I'm gonna bruise my shoulder and wallet shooting at something, I'd just assume make the biggest hole possible, and only a shotgun will make bigger holes for the money.

And another thing, my handi rifle shoots 1/2" one shot groups all day long. Try that with your little .45 caliber squirrel rifle.

Wanta B
January 1, 2010, 08:01 PM
coosbaycreep---

When I get back state side I would like to extend an invitation/challenge(freindly that is) to put our favorite pet loads against one another.I can provide all sorts of test media...soon to include Iron Buffalos.

In this way we not only get to have some fun but also get more eyes on the results.:)

I'll make a gentlemen's bet with ya' that my .45-70 will out penetrate your .500.:D

Maverick223
January 1, 2010, 08:50 PM
I'll make a gentlemen's bet with ya' that my .45-70 will out penetrate your .500.I too would take that bet (for the .45-70Govt. that is), and be more than willing to put up a load of my own.

:)

ms6852
January 2, 2010, 04:44 PM
I would go for 45-70 for versatility, but for deer and as a brush gun marlin 336 35 remington. More loving for your shoulder, cheap ammo at walmart and can bring down black bear.

Maverick223
January 2, 2010, 04:54 PM
More loving for your shoulder.The .45-70 loves your shoulder...that is why it likes to get real close when you pull the trigger. :neener:

coosbaycreep
January 2, 2010, 05:06 PM
Wanta b, I accept your challenge. The only thing I think your 45-70 will out penetrate my 500 against is steel, and that's only because it's a smaller diameter bullet.

I remember seeing test results (can't remember the website) online somewhere that showed the penetration of most of the big bore pistol and rifle calibers against wet newspaper, and while the 45-70 had ungodly penetration, 500mag still went further.

We'll see though.

Wanta B
January 2, 2010, 05:51 PM
Outstanding!!:D

I know some folks that are located in SW Oregon,Rogue Valley,so travel,once back state side,will be no problem...I am assuming Oregon coast area?

First hand,side by side comparison...sounds like fun! Regardless of the winner.

I'll bring my .460Wby too.Perhaps the .416 Taylor,.416 Rigby,.375 Ruger as well. If you are interested. I have an old custom I had built in '89,.338-.416 Rigby that spawned the .338 Lapua. 250gr@ 3275 fps::)

Maverick223
January 2, 2010, 07:44 PM
Impatiently awaiting the results. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/coffee.gif

coosbaycreep
January 2, 2010, 07:49 PM
I actually live in the Roseburg area right now, but I'm looking at moving somewhere else soon.

Whenever you get here though, I'm down for slinging some big bullets and bruised shoulders.

Wanta B
January 3, 2010, 01:27 PM
My apologizes gentlemen but it will be a bit before I am back state side...around spring.However I too am eagerly looking forward to the results!:D

Should prove to be lots of fun...

phatgemi
January 4, 2010, 10:31 AM
For me personally, the choice was very simple. I live in Indiana and the 500 is a legal deer cartridge whereas the 45/70 is not. So guess which one I sold? I made someone a happy camper as they now have a nice 45/70. For the naysayers, the 500 can be loaded very light for plinking and pretty potent. Plenty of gun for those of us caliber restricted. Sometimes the permissible calibers laws trump ballistic agruements.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
January 4, 2010, 12:13 PM
The FACT is that,today,the .45-70 is often loaded to power levels the original .375 H&H could only dream of...To which that original .375 HH did VERY well,obviously!! To say the "modern" .45-70 is incapable of taking anything walking on this planet with regularity is,well,WRONG!!!

With todays powders and projectiles my little .358Win. achieves more penitration than the original 375HH. Not power but penitration,tho' power is VERY close.

I agree. But be that as it may, it STILL does not make the .45-70 gov't a legal caliber to use on DG in most (if not all) African countries (unfortunately), in my understanding.

Wanta B
January 4, 2010, 01:31 PM
I am finding that is indeed the case most of the time.:rolleyes:However I am also finding that "special hunts" are being granted:).I need to look into that more:scrutiny:.

To me it seems very strange that,since it can be loaded just past the old cordite 375HH--a proven loading--that it would be considered under power today...:rolleyes: To me it seems folks have to much "magnumiteus",taking the place of skill at arms and courage under pressure.

Please keep in mind that statement includes myself at times and given a choice I typicaly go for the larger projectile,ie. in order of selection...358Win,.338Fed,308Win,7mm-08,260Rem,243Win....35whelen,338-06,30-06,etc.,etc. Also I have the choice of using 5.56x45 but quickly foresake it for 7.62x51. and .45ACP,tho' I do carry a 9mm too, and back home I quite often hunt deer with a .300WM or .45-70. Infact,save pistol cal. carbines and a few 5.56x45,three uppers for FN-FAL .243Win,.260Rem and 7mm-08,I do not owne a rifle smaller than .308Win..

I suppose,sometimes I just want to put the critter down,being a meat hunter mostly,and sometimes I want a bit of a thrill...I mean I went on a medieval Boar hunt in Texas a couple of years back...Period bow,arrows a boar speer,sword and 13" knife.:uhoh::rolleyes::D

Wanta B
January 4, 2010, 01:36 PM
I just noticed that I had stated my .358Win. will out penetrate the original .375HH...I actualy can not say I have first hand knowledge of that.Only secound hand:o.I do trust the sorce however. Still I did get caught up in the moment.:o

Wanta B
January 4, 2010, 01:39 PM
:oUmmm,goodness,I miss spoke again...I have several rifles in .22LR.:o

Maverick223
January 4, 2010, 01:48 PM
...sometimes I want a bit of a thrill...I mean I went on a medieval Boar hunt in Texas a couple of years back...Period bow,arrows a boar speer,sword and 13" knife.You my friend, are crazy...I hope you had a medieval hand cannon (perhaps a medieval .45-70 :D) to back you up.

:)

Wanta B
January 4, 2010, 01:59 PM
ROTFLMAO...NO...no...but there were six of us.That might count as a midieval six shooter.:neener:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
January 4, 2010, 02:03 PM
but there were six of us [with spears]. That might count as a medieval six shooter

heh heh.... :D

Maverick223
January 4, 2010, 03:54 PM
NO...no...but there were six of us.That might count as a midieval six shooter.Sounds to me like a six shooter thrower. :neener:

Wanta B
January 26, 2010, 12:54 PM
Possible example of basic penetration charactoristics... See the thread "Are semi-auto rifles truely need for HD",post #80. Look at the 9mm 147gr and the .308 155gr. ...I know that they are different projectiles but weight is similar and speed difference is similar to the more powerful .458s compared to the .45-70.

From what I have seen and have been trying to descibe is that,indeed the larger .458s do create much more devistating wounds but do not reach the penetration of the slower .45-70. Or so it seems. Again,I beleave this to be do to hydrostatic/liquid tension.


Yes I am most definately still in for a shoot offthis spring.:D
Don'tcare how it turn out,just want the results...:D

Wanta B
January 26, 2010, 12:55 PM
Oh and hey,with the bows and arrows it may still qualify as a "sixshooter"...:p

Maverick223
January 26, 2010, 01:30 PM
Still impatiently looking forward to it... http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/coffee.gif

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