The right thing to do?


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Littlemac
October 29, 2009, 09:31 PM
I purchased a Colt Ar-15/22 thinking it would be the answer to have a dedicated .22 rifle. It is a POS. Lots of problems with it and I purchased a different brand which has not exhibited the same problems.

Twice I have attempted to return it to the seller saying it was a POS and that I would like to get my bucks back. Twice he said no way- warranty issues were the responsibility of the Manufacturer, he would sent it in, but a refund was out of the questions (the owner).

In the means time, his back office staff has contacted me saying that I filled out the wrong form (4473) and that I need to redo it, for their benefit. I asked them to refund my bucks, I would give them the rifle back and we would both be happy. But NOOOOOOOOO.

I may be able to get a refund from my credit card company. So I will be made whole again.

My question is What kind to trouble can this company get into for using the wrong form. I would think they would be on the hook for not have a firearm on their records and not having it on hand.

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billdeserthills
October 29, 2009, 09:42 PM
Well, as a gundealer myself, the only real punishment the ATF holds is their ability to take away this stores federal firearms license. I will also tell you that if my store sells you a gun & you decide you don't like it, we don't take it back either. Of course, if my choice lay between making you happy or losing my FFL, I guess you would be happy. I guess you don't know this, but the gunstore did not hire the dwarf to excavate the metal, nor the blacksmith to form said metal into your gun. I can't guess why you think it is the stores fault that the gun you bought doesn't make you happy, but I can tell you there is just one place, whose job is to make your gun work as promised. That place is called The Manufacturer. They will repair your gun to the specifications they advertised, and they will be happy to begin doing that just as soon as you get the gun delivered to them.

Littlemac
October 29, 2009, 10:02 PM
So you just read I was unhappy with a gun. If the gun ran just fine, I would not try to get my bucks back. If the gun ran I would be happy. No harm, no foul.

How about sharing where you store is? Just so you and I don't cross paths.

I guess I did what the seller, wanted I parted with my bucks and he has them. Now I have a gun on which he has bad paperwork. You think that is a good trade? thanks for the feedback

mljdeckard
October 29, 2009, 10:06 PM
It's kind of two questions. A: Are they required to take the gun back, and B: What obligation do you have to correct their paperwork AFTER the fact?

A: Not really. Now, every time I've ever had a problem like this, they have tried to make it right. This is one reason I try to buy from a place with an in-house gunsmith, so that rather than face mailing it to the factory and waiting on a warranty claim, they will usually just grab the smith and ask him to give it a look. It's like when I was in the car business. People bring cars back with complaints all the time. According to the law, you can tell them to go bite a cactus. But what you WANT to do is give them warm fuzzies so that they will still tell their friends to come in. Is the gun under warranty, so that you can at least go through the tortuous process of sending it in for a warranty claim?

B: Paperwork is a VERY hot subject these days. The B of ATF & E is very silly about it. This is why Wal-Mart has dropped guns from most of their stores. BATFE is so silly, they will come in, go through their books, and point out errors such as, the state abbreviation isn't capitalized, and fine them. $10,000 per error. I'm not exaggerating. Some Wal-Mart stores would get hammered for $50,000 or more twice a year, and big blue just decided it wasn't worth it anymore. When I buy a gun from my favorite retailer, I usually do TWO 4473s. One is the test template, where they go over all the punctuation and handwriting. Then the manager/owner looks it over. If everything is correct, they have me sign everything and it becomes official. If not, they shred it and we start over again. It's not uncommon for guys to get fired for screwing up 4473s. That form is a BIG deal to them.

HERE'S AN IDEA. If it was me, I would go to them, and ask them; "Hey, I want to work with you here, keep everyone happy, let's take a look at the form, no problem. I understand that you can't just take the gun back, and it's ok. Would it be reasonable to ask you to ship the gun back to the factory for me for a warranty claim?" (Unless of course everyone is already too upset to look at it this way.)

f4t9r
October 29, 2009, 10:10 PM
Most gun stores have a sign that reads firearm & ammo sales are final. Most will send the gun back for repair or replacement but not very often will you get a refund. They want the manufacturer to take care of the problem.

Extremely Pro Gun
October 29, 2009, 10:15 PM
I would send it to colt... get it fixed.... and sell that piece of **** ASAP. Get a CMMG conversion for a real AR. I have heard great things.

ozarkhillbilly
October 29, 2009, 10:57 PM
No, the store in under no obligation to take the gun back and No you are under no obligation to help them with their paper work problem.
If they made it clear to you that the gun was your problem then the paper work problem is their problem.

I understand to sentiment of some dealers you believe that the problem is between you and the manufacture, but how many of these same people if they bought a TV at Wal-Mart that did not work right out of the box would take it right back to Wal-Mart and expect a refund or exchange. Which Wal-Mart would give. This is a major reason why big box stores do more business.

If I bought a new gun that did not work I would expect the store to help me out with it, if they take the profit then take some risk. Thankfully the gun shop I do business with would help me out and that is why I do business with them.

smithmax
October 30, 2009, 01:54 AM
So, did you take the seller up on his offer to send it for you? It's lame that it doesn't work, but you should at least give the manufacturer a chance to fix it for you.

mustang_steve
October 30, 2009, 02:15 AM
This is SOP for about every gun shop I've been to.

They cannot service the firearm themselves without a few things happening:
1) potentially voiding your warranty
2) If something goes wrong, opening them up to lawsuits.
3) it may not be the "best" repair

If the firearm goes to the manufacturer:
1) warranty is preserved
2) Nobody is opening themselves up to lawsuits.
3) It's restored to factory mechanical condition.

That said, send it back to the factory...let them iron it out. I hope I'm not sounding like a prick here, but buyer's remorse is not a valid reason for a dealer to take back your firearm. The shop should help you out with shipping it to them, since after all they did sell it to you. That's fair. What's not fair is dumping a bad firearm on them that they now have to send in, then sell for used. Basically you're taking a manufacturer issue and trying to make the retailer lose money over it.

Reporting him to the ATF over it will probably come to bite you in the butt...as the report would NOT be in good faith (instead being meant as a retaliatory measure).

Davek1977
October 30, 2009, 05:29 AM
I understand to sentiment of some dealers you believe that the problem is between you and the manufacture, but how many of these same people if they bought a TV at Wal-Mart that did not work right out of the box would take it right back to Wal-Mart and expect a refund or exchange. Which Wal-Mart would give. This is a major reason why big box stores do more business

Short answer- A gun is different than a televsion. Ask Walmart to take a weapon you've taken home and fired (or attempted to fire, even) and see what their response is. Even walmart, who will refund you ther price of a turkey if you return the bones and tell them it sucked, WILL NOT take a gun back. A store "taking back" a gun is something I've yet to witness in 32 years of life. I've seen them send guns in for repeair, I've seen shops do their own repairs, but I've yet to see a shop say "Ok, heres your money back". Its just not SOP in the world of guns, and frankly, if you thought it was, might I suggest coming out from under the rock you must live under once in awhile? Most shops I do business with would bend over backwards to help you return it to the manufacturer, but not a single one will refund your money on a gun you've decided doesn't work or you don't like. "100% satisfaction guranteed or your money back" simply doesn't apply to guns under normal circumstances.

natman
October 30, 2009, 07:17 AM
I purchased a Colt Ar-15/22 thinking it would be the answer to have a dedicated .22 rifle. It is a POS. Lots of problems with it and I purchased a different brand which has not exhibited the same problems.

Twice I have attempted to return it to the seller saying it was a POS and that I would like to get my bucks back. Twice he said no way- warranty issues were the responsibility of the Manufacturer, he would sent it in, but a refund was out of the questions (the owner).

In the means time, his back office staff has contacted me saying that I filled out the wrong form (4473) and that I need to redo it, for their benefit. I asked them to refund my bucks, I would give them the rifle back and we would both be happy. But NOOOOOOOOO.

I may be able to get a refund from my credit card company. So I will be made whole again.

My question is What kind to trouble can this company get into for using the wrong form. I would think they would be on the hook for not have a firearm on their records and not having it on hand.

Let's get this straight. You bought a new gun and you don't like it for legitimate reasons. The store has offered to send it back and get it fixed under warranty but you have refused.

Now you want to try and turn some innocent clerical error like using an outdated 4473 into a stink in retaliation.

Upon reflection I hope that this sounds as childish and petulant to you as it does to me.

NavyLCDR
October 30, 2009, 08:07 AM
Did the OP fill out the form that the store told him he had to fill out? YES.
Did the OP fill out the provided form in the way that he was instructed to? YES.
Did the OP lie on the form? We hope.... NO.

Is the bad form the fault of the OP? NO.
Does the OP have any responsibility to correct the mistake made by the gun store? NO

Is it the fault of the gun store that the gun the OP bought is a POS? NO (assuming that the gun store did not tamper with the gun, which I doubt they did)
Is it the responsibility of the gun store to fix or replace the gun? NO
Is it reasonable for the gun store to offer to provide the service of shipping the gun to the manufacturer? YES

rbernie
October 30, 2009, 08:26 AM
I hope that this sounds as childish and petulant to you as it does to me. Pretty much so.

Even debating about screwing with an FFL because you want an (unreasonable) refund rather than getting the (industry standard) warranty repair is frankly extortion, and IMO you should be ashamed of yourself for actually contemplating such a thing.

Were I that FFL, I would never again allow you through my doorway if I ever caught wind of this.

TexasRifleman
October 30, 2009, 08:42 AM
Legally no, you have no reason to go re-do the paperwork.

Legally, they have no reason to help you with the gun.

Personally I couldn't sleep at night if I thought I could help keep the ATF out of a gun store's business and I didn't, no matter how mad I might be at the store.

GRIZ22
October 30, 2009, 08:44 AM
I would never expect a FFL give a refund if a new gun didn't work any more than expect a car dealer to take a new car back because it broke down. He did offer to send it back for repairs at no cost to you which seems reasonable. The dealer doesn't seem to be doing anything other than normal business.

may be able to get a refund from my credit card company. So I will be made whole again.

My question is What kind to trouble can this company get into for using the wrong form. I would think they would be on the hook for not have a firearm on their records and not having it on hand.

This sounds vindictive to me.

archigos
October 30, 2009, 09:05 AM
Refunds are a favor that some stores will do for you. Treat it as such.
FFLs have enough to worry about with the BATFE, help them out because a) it is the right thing to do and b) I'm assuming if you're on these forums that you are pro-gun. If you're going to use the BATFE for wrongful vengeance and thus help supplement their unconstitutional power, you are aiding the anti-rights movement and probably shouldn't even waste your time pretending to be a 2nd Amendment supporter.

peyton
October 30, 2009, 09:48 AM
Man up, go by and do the paperwork. That local gun store could be closed up and then you will have no where to spend your money or handle the new guns.
Send your Colt back, they will fix it, even better call colt and they will send shipping instructions FOR FREE!!! Colt is not the only manufacturer that has quality control problems.

The LGS sold you rifle NIB, now if had been used I could see arguing. I bought a well used Winchester model 94 from my LGS. Went to the range, no bang. They called the gunsmith and paid for the firing pin to be replaced and gave me a box of shells for the inconvience.

BlayGlock
October 30, 2009, 11:06 AM
I think your best course of actoin is to have the store send it in for you like they said they would. It will be fixed under the warranty, and I understand your frustration with a bad product. When you get it back, sell it or keep it if you like the way it works.

No reason to be get these guys in trouble with the BATFE.

Grey_Mana
October 30, 2009, 11:12 AM
Consult a lawyer before deciding to sign anything. Do not sign paperwork you don't have to. Would you sign any other type of form, say - regarding a credit card you closed last year, or for medical bills that were fully paid by insurance but the hospital may have made a mistake and would like you to promise to pay an additional $10,000 if your insurance refuses?

At a minimum, they need to pay for you to hire a lawyer to review the documents. Otherwise, they don't need the document signed that badly.

When you sign a document to buy a firearm, BATF has jurisdiction over that sale and therefore over that document. Chance of being mislead or tricked is essentially zero. When you sign documents separate from a gun sale, you don't have that same umbrella protection. If they made a mistake on the paperwork, you have to figure out whether BATF is more likely to protect your rights, or screw with you.

As a worst-case scenario, they might have been notified about a manufacturer's defect, and been told to return that gun. If they sold it to you by mistake, maybe they want you to sign off that you were informed about the defect and bought it anyway. Is it worth your time to read the documents that carefully, to look for any pitfalls and tricks?

WoofersInc
October 30, 2009, 12:47 PM
For the OP. What exactly are the problems you are having with the gun? It might be something that is simple to fix. Please give some more information on it.

wheelgunslinger
October 30, 2009, 01:31 PM
I agree with the other posters here about this sounding petulant.

You didn't buy a BigMac and get mayo when you asked them to not squirt mayo on it. You bought a machine. Machines sometimes are very good or very bad, and are most often average. You just got a bad one. Stuff happens.
Colt is a great company.

If you overspent on the gun and now need to pay the rent, that's not the gun store's problem.

If it's just a question of the weapon not performing, no one knows the item in question like the people who made it.

It's absurd to wire these two issues (firearm and paperwork) together to somehow get the dealer over a barrel.
Put on your big girl panties, send the rifle to Colt, redo the paperwork, and get on with your life.

ozarkhillbilly
October 30, 2009, 11:02 PM
Even walmart, who will refund you ther price of a turkey if you return the bones and tell them it sucked, WILL NOT take a gun back. A store "taking back" a gun is something I've yet to witness in 32 years of life.

I hate to say it but maybe you have not been around too, to many places. I have witnessed guns returned to both Wal-Mart and to Bass Pro as well as Mom and Pop shops. I have a buddy of mine whose wife bought him a Remington SPS in 25.06 for his B-Day last week and he wanted a BDL so Bass Pro told him to bring it in and they would exchange it, no big deal.

Mags
October 30, 2009, 11:12 PM
Consult a lawyer before deciding to sign anything. Do not sign paperwork you don't have to. Would you sign any other type of form, say - regarding a credit card you closed last year, or for medical bills that were fully paid by insurance but the hospital may have made a mistake and would like you to promise to pay an additional $10,000 if your insurance refuses? What are you talking about? As for the OP if you have the Crecit Card company refund your money without returning the gun you have just commited fraud.

Atroxus
October 30, 2009, 11:47 PM
Refunds are a favor that some stores will do for you. Treat it as such.

God I wish more people understood this concept. I have worked in retail, and in tech support where I process warranty exchanges. People just can not grasp the concept that not making you duke it out with the manufacturers directly for warranty exchanges is a HUGE convenience for the customer, and is not *REQUIRED* of any retailer. These same morons are the ones that freak out when you tell them that the damage they caused a product is not covered under warranty. Or freak out when you enforce the return policy they never bother to read or inquire about before making their purchase. Whatever happend to "Buyer beware"? I am all for consumer protections, but if people are now too stupid and/or lazy to make even a token attempt to protect their own behind when making a purchase then maybe we have taken them too far. :cuss:

danbrew
October 31, 2009, 08:32 AM
My question is What kind to trouble can this company get into for using the wrong form. I would think they would be on the hook for not have a firearm on their records and not having it on hand.

If I were the dealer, I think I'd preemptively call ATF on you. Reading between the lines it sounds as if you're ready to drop the dime on the dealer to ATF. The dealer doesn't have a situation where he does not know where the firearm is - he has a situation where somebody made a mistake and he's contacted you in good faith and asked you to help him fix it - and you've (apparently) refused. ATF isn't going to close down a dealer because of a mistake on a form. Or using an outdated form. Unless it's every form.

It's hugely unreasonable to think that a gun dealer has an obligation to take back a gun you don't like. It's very common knowledge that those Colt .22s are super sensitive to ammo - so one could argue that it is not the gun - it's you. Even if it is the gun, some guns just suck. There's a reason that most gun dealers don't stock Jennings - they suck. Perhaps, over time, we'll see dealers stop carrying these .22s that are form factored into evil black guns - if they continue to suck. Some are quite good, from what I understand. I wouldn't at all be surprised to learn that Colt is requiring dealers to place orders for them - that is, if they want their other orders fufilled.

Imho, you'd be better of thoroughly cleaning the gun and using Federal ammo - the Remington doesn't seem to work well. Read this - http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?p=828643.

:D

JpSnareGuy
October 31, 2009, 08:57 AM
I have never personally been in or heard of a gun store or dealer that would take a firearm back after someone buys it, and I have been in and dealt with ALOT of places that sell firearms including gun shows. Some great places to deal with and some that were horrible to deal with, but none that will take a return on a firearm. That is just my experience.

DeepSouth
October 31, 2009, 09:08 AM
Post #13........ Summed it up

Littlemac
October 31, 2009, 01:52 PM
Thanks for all the feedback.
What I will probably do is sell this rifle at a gun show with the understanding that it is a pos. I checked my inventory and I have 67 different firearms and this is the first time I have purchase one that did not work out of the box.
I can see that we are divided about making this purchase right. When I purchase something new I expect it to work. Period. If is doesnt work I expect the seller to make it right.
Is is possible to post the name of the dealer in Ft Worth Texas who handled this transaction, just as a warning to other potential buyers?
I have done business with the FFL before, but I am just dollar signs to him, not a customer or someone to care about. So he has my dollars (which he wanted) and now I will take steps to solve the problem or pass is along to someone else. THX LM

Mags
October 31, 2009, 02:15 PM
Littlemac, I do not see why you wish to continue to smear this dealer's name. He has done nothing wrong, what do you want him to do take you for a beer or invite you to Christmas dinner. I mean really what do you want from the guy?

mljdeckard
October 31, 2009, 02:35 PM
^^ Yep. It is the manufacturer's job to stand by the product, not the dealer's.

GRIZ22
October 31, 2009, 03:07 PM
What I will probably do is sell this rifle at a gun show with the understanding that it is a pos.

So you are willing to take a fraction of what you paid for it?

When I purchase something new I expect it to work. Period. If is doesnt work I expect the seller to make it right

He did. He offered to send it back for factory repair. How can you complain about that? If you buy a new car, washing machine, lawnmower or anything else do you expect a dealer to replace it if something is wrong? Is this how you expeect to do business?

Is is possible to post the name of the dealer in Ft Worth Texas who handled this transaction, just as a warning to other potential buyers?

If it will make you happy go ahead. But be sure to be truthful "Firearms dealer offers to send defective gun back to the factory for repair but I want him to refund my money" is what this amounts to.

To show how irrational you are try going to the state consumer affairs department or equivalent and file a complaint. Try getting a lawyer to sue the dealer (hint: he'll want his money up front).

divemedic
October 31, 2009, 06:37 PM
I read many of the posts here, and they mainly boil down to:

1 The dealer isn't required to give you a refund
2 The buyer isn't required to correct the form, but he should because it is the 'right thing to do'


My opinion? The dealer isn't required by law to make the customer whole, but why should the customer do the dealer a favor?

This is a problem endemic to all retail: They no longer care about the customer. This is why so many retail stores are going out of business. I am a diver as well as a gunnie, and many dive shops are suffering because large online stores are undercutting them. A brick and mortar store cannot compete in pricing with an e store, so the only thing they offer is customer service. Gun stores, with a government ordered monopoly, don't have to worry about customer service.

ME? I would offer a deal. I would bring the gun in for store credit in exchange for fixing the paperwork. If he doesn't want that- too bad. Tell it to the ATF.

kwelz
October 31, 2009, 07:17 PM
I have returned one gun in my life. It was a Used Universal M1 carbine that would not function. I know the store well. I went in and talked to the manager whom I knew very well. I explained the issues and told him I didn't want my cash back but if he was willing to do something I would accept store credit. I didn't go in with an attitude or demanding anything. I suspect this had a lot to do with the response you got from the store. Not to mention that it was a new gun that could be fixed by the factory.

Also you really should do your research. These .22 M4s are not really Colts and they have a reputation for being crap.

Echo9
November 1, 2009, 12:03 AM
You said you filled out the wrong form. What did you fill out?

Or did they give you incorrect instructions for the 4473?

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