perhaps shtf, perhaps not scenario #1


PDA






Andrew Wyatt
November 5, 2003, 07:53 PM
You're going out to do something that requires a rifle. It could be anything. that's the only information you have. What rifle do you grab?

If you enjoyed reading about "perhaps shtf, perhaps not scenario #1" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
GySgt
November 5, 2003, 08:17 PM
My Ruger M-77, in .308

GM7RQK
November 5, 2003, 08:18 PM
Two rifles, I like backup. :)

Skunkabilly
November 5, 2003, 08:28 PM
HK .30-06, the only one I have.

OEF_VET
November 5, 2003, 08:45 PM
My SAR-1. If I'm going to the range, it's coming with me. If I think the excrement will impact the oscillating blades, you better believe it's coming with me.

Warner
November 5, 2003, 08:49 PM
With all factors unknown, I'd go with a mag fed semiauto that could be used at close to medium distances, so that means no scope.

If pressed into defense duty, I will have planned well. If I must hunt deer at 450yds, I may go hungry for awhile, but still be alive.

I'm not a fan of the 5.56 due to it's lack of versatility. So the nod goes to the 7.62X51.

Dave R
November 5, 2003, 09:11 PM
Only ONE rifle? Could be ANYTHING?

A semi-auto .308. Good penetration, good firepower, good range, good energy. Only thing bad would be weight or handiness for urban warfare or long marches. Adrenalin might solve that problem.

Art Eatman
November 5, 2003, 09:12 PM
I'd just grab Ol' Pet. Anything much inside of 500 yards, I own it.

:), Art

Schuey2002
November 5, 2003, 09:46 PM
If this SHTF rifle is mine, then I'm grabbing my Remington Model 700 chambered in .30-06; mainly because its my only "Reach out and touch someone" (or something) weapon. That, and its fun engaging targets (those would be of the furry variety) at long ranges with it..

If its any other rifle, then I'm grabbing a H&K G36K. They're light, compact, they look Tactical ( Yes! That is very important in my small world, Tamara. :uhoh: ), it will go full-auto with sweep of the thumb, and it has good punch against 2-legged targets at reasonable ranges. Another reason that I'm taking one is that I have always wanted one. Well, at least for the last few years.. :o

WonderNine
November 5, 2003, 09:58 PM
A Winchester model 70 in .30-06 with a decent scope.

Beetle Bailey
November 5, 2003, 10:05 PM
My M39 Mosin Nagant. But, tomorrow I should be getting a No. 4 Mark II from the BBT, so if that turns out to be a good shooter, I might go with it instead :) .

Moparmike
November 5, 2003, 10:27 PM
I only own a humble 8mm Yugo (I need to get a scope. It would become my "reach out and touch" gun). However, if I had an SAR-1 or an AR, you bet it would go with me. With the AR, anything inside of 300 yards (400 in a pinch) would belong to me.

Does my 10mm count inside of 100yds? It only drops 7in @ 100 if zeroed @ 50...:D

clint1911a1
November 5, 2003, 10:43 PM
My M1-A, 12 mags, and 500-600 rounds of 147 grain ball on strippers. ;)

hansolo
November 5, 2003, 10:55 PM
If not........Thompson SMG and a LOT of full magazines.

If I have to OWN it.....SKS and a LOT of full strippers.:rolleyes:

7.62FullMetalJacket
November 5, 2003, 11:38 PM
This is easy. FN FAL. .308 rules. No glass, military sights.

mgjohn
November 6, 2003, 12:23 AM
Styer SSG in 308

chaim
November 6, 2003, 01:27 AM
If someone said "come with me and you will need a rifle" so I knew I needed one but didn't know for what or how long I'd have to take my SKS. It is at home so I have easy access to it plus since ammo is cheap I have a ton of ammo loaded up on stripper clips. However, if I had time to go to my storage unit I'd prefer my Winchester 94 in 30-30. I like it better, I shoot it better, it is light and handy, and it will handle most any situation quite well (powerful, easy to top off or load on the go with the convenient loading window). When I pick up a .357 or .44mag lever rifle it will become my preference (lighter and cheaper ammo than 30-30 so I can have more ammo, the tube mag will hold more ammo, and it will still reach out and touch someone out to 100+ yards if need be).

David4516
November 6, 2003, 01:42 AM
Another vote for the .30-30 Winchester model 94 (I accutaly have 2 of them). I don't have any semi-auto rifles, so this is the next best thing. I'm much faster with the Lever gun than I am with any other action type (not counting auto-loaders). Another reason is that my tube mag can hold more rounds than most bolt gun's mags will...

And if it turns out I'm hunting critters with 4 legs instead of 2, I'd much rather have my .30-30 than something like at .223 or 7.62X39...

six 4 sure
November 6, 2003, 02:37 AM
Hmmm another interesting spin on a popular subject. If you’ll allow me to make one small assumption, I won’t be traveling more than 100 miles from home, I cast another vote for a Winchester 94 30-30. It’s light, it’s handy, and mines more accurate than I am out to 100 yards. Not many open places around here where long shots would be required.

six

Dionysusigma
November 6, 2003, 03:50 AM
Same as OEF_VET.

Dr.Rob
November 6, 2003, 06:02 AM
Come with me.

Where are we going?

You'll need a rifle.

Where are we going? (opens safe)

It's a secret but you'll need a rifle.

Will a shotgun with a rifled tube do the trick?

No I think it has to be a rifle.

Will I need a hunting rifle or a poodle shooter?

Look I was only told to tell you to bring a rifle.

Well look, if I take my trusty '06 we can pretty much shoot anything out to 400 yards.

Look just pick one.

If I take this here AK .223 carbine we can shoot all day at 200 yards.. make lots of holes. LOTS of holes.

What ever just pick one.. what are you doing?

(reaching for wheelbarrow) Well how else am I gonna carry all these magazines?

:D

Truthfully a scoped Marlin 30-30 is an awfully fine 'what if' kind of rifle, provided Brown bears or stampeding elephants aren't the issue.

I figure if anyone ever tells me I'll NEED a rifle it better be one that can kill something on two legs or four.

Maybe I DO need an M-1A.

Dorrin79
November 6, 2003, 10:04 AM
I'm thinking my SKS - I can sling it over one shoulder and 200 rds on stripper clips in a bandolier over the other and be ready to go.

If I had a lightweight, scoped .308 bolty (like a Remington mdl 7 or a Ruger M77 MII Ultralight) I might take it instead.

Soap
November 6, 2003, 01:00 PM
Remington 700P in .308 w/ Leupold Tactical VX-II Mil Dot

foghornl
November 6, 2003, 01:13 PM
US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly knows as 'The Garand'

Kurt
November 6, 2003, 01:15 PM
No poodle shooters for me. Any FAL will do just fine.

I will await the book or movie that portrays a man with his scoped boltgun, awakened at night, against three or four of these "whatevers".

Comedy or tragedy?

You decide.

XxAR10xX
November 6, 2003, 01:46 PM
Para Fal 18" barrel, with Aimpoint.

Steve Smith
November 6, 2003, 01:55 PM
Right now I'd grab one of my match ARs and dump the weights. However, I have a really nice match M1A that, once proven to be reliable, will be my SHTF gun...I shoot both well.

Andrew Wyatt
November 6, 2003, 02:05 PM
Interesting array of choices here.

Is the weapon you picked the one you train the most with?

Kestryll
November 6, 2003, 02:28 PM
If I am limited to what I own I would have to go with the Mini-14 with scout-mounted red dot and a bunch of known reliable mags. It's probably not everyone's favorite but it's the most versatile one I own. By the way, even if the scenario calls for a rifle while I am in the safe I'm grabbing my Browning Hi-Power and spare mags. Sometimes YOU are your own backup!

If I can pick what I want, select-fire M-14 with 4x scope in see-thru rings and the requsite boatload of known reliable mags.






And the Death Star:D

Ktulu
November 6, 2003, 02:48 PM
M1 Garand

50 Freak
November 6, 2003, 03:09 PM
Pretty simple:

Lightweight 18 inch Fal, with magazine vest (holds 10 mags and currently loaded and sitting under my bed). Also would bring the quick release scope for the FAL for the "reach out and touch someone" situation.

J. Parker
November 6, 2003, 03:26 PM
I'd take the only rifle I have.......an older left-handed Savage in 7mm Rem mag.:D

Jack19
November 6, 2003, 03:46 PM
I'll stick with the Poodle Shooter....an AR for me please.

And yes it's the one I train with the most.

RustyHammer
November 6, 2003, 04:00 PM
I'm going out to do something with a gun, but I don't know what it it? Sounds like a job for special forces, not me!

Just to play along, I'll toss my AR and some mags in the back of my Abrams M1A2 tank and tag along ....

/Rusty

mephisto
November 6, 2003, 04:15 PM
Enfield no4 mkII. 250 rounds. new pair of running shoes. 20 power bars. and some snuggles T/P.

Beetle Bailey
November 6, 2003, 06:20 PM
Is the weapon you picked the one you train the most with?

Yes, my M38 Swedish Mauser is lighter and if I get more practice with the Enfield it would get the nod, but right now if I had to make a shot, I'd grab the Mosin Nagant.

Schuey2002
November 6, 2003, 06:27 PM
Is the weapon you picked the one you train the most with?
No, that honor goes to my SL8-1, and that's only because its more affordable to shoot. :o

Soap
November 6, 2003, 08:26 PM
Kurt- If you notice in the original post, Andrew states,

You're going out...

Of course no one would choose the bolt guns if Andrew would have said, "You've been awakened at night, you need a rifle, which one would you take?"

Andrew Wyatt
November 6, 2003, 08:32 PM
I'm surprised no one's mentioned a steyr scout yet.

ShaiVong
November 6, 2003, 08:35 PM
Snatch up the Bushmaster A2 20" with freefloating tube and bi-level EOTech Tactical Reflex Sight leaning against the wall next to the bed with a Bushmaster 10 round mag in it; shrug on the Blackhawk vest hanging next to it with 6 30rnd mags of Q3131A and 4 mags of Glock22 loaded with gold dot's, with the holster right on the chest.

5 seconds and I'm mobile with 190 rounds of 5.56 and 50 rounds of 40 S&W :evil:

admar2
November 6, 2003, 08:36 PM
my M4gery and a LBV full o mags.

something like this.

http://amarino01.homestead.com/files/gear1.jpg

David4516
November 6, 2003, 08:40 PM
Death Star?

I wouldn't go with the Death Star, not enough stopping power :p

greyhound
November 6, 2003, 09:22 PM
Well, I only own a Mosin Nagant 91/30 and a Marlin 60 .22.

Methinks I'd slap the bayonet on the Mosin (guaranteed to scare any gangbanger/rioter if that is the situation) and roll out!:D

Ky Larry
November 6, 2003, 09:36 PM
I keep my AK-47 semi-auto loaded in my safe with an East German mag pouch loaded with 6 30 rd mags. I also have a backpack in my safe with several "suprises" in it.

goon
November 6, 2003, 10:20 PM
It would probably be my M-39.
The less pretty one.;)
I can shoot it well enough to make a sensible man think twice about a 3-5 second rush.;)

Kurt
November 7, 2003, 02:18 AM
Daniel Flory, Pardon my delayed response to your post (and hi to my other fans!).

I just had to go out and quiz some other non-family folks about that point you brought up a few posts back, and addressed to me. I want to tell you what I found out!

You stated that the original premise here was we're “going out” period…end of story. That appeared to be all the thought you were willing or able to muster about it. You seemed unduly agitated when I had an opinion on the scenario of waking up and having to face some multiple troubles, armed only with a scoped bolt action rifle. Well, after quizzing four (4) very average, walkin’ around, everyday type adults about this very thread and its outline, to a person they said…..are you ready, Daniel?……they said.......“you’ll have to sleep sometime”

You’ll have to sleep sometime. How profound - Huh! ..... and just what I was always thinking!

Conditions were never laid out in this thread as to what happens AFTER we are “out”, were they, Daniel. Will we be whisked away to lands unknown by a sexy supermodel in a H2 Hummer? Or immediately face 25 well-armed Islamic extremists? Or will we just be asked by a neighbor to help him make a very nasty animal room temperature.

What about other firearms? Is this rifle our only firearm? Or are we also allowed sidearms, shotguns, subguns, and grenades? Nobody ever said, Daniel, and you know what happens when you assume.

How about the duration? Is it to be 10 minutes? Two minutes? Four years? And what about the conditions? Conditions could be quite different right outside my front door, when compared to anyplace that the H2 could take me (and her) to.

Did I mention adversaries yet? Nope. Well......what shall we do about them? Will there be any - or will there be many. Daniel, as a forum-friend, I need to know if the bigger picture is happenin’ for you yet? I've personally found all this stuff to be so very, very basic.

Exceptions aside….IMO, the folks that chose the hard-hitting semi-autos here should do far better in a larger percentage of these scenarios (and most others), than those that chose the bolt guns, or anything less.

Besides, supermodels probably like them too.

;)

Andrew Wyatt
November 7, 2003, 02:52 AM
eeh. a fellow with a bolt gun can do just fine at short range. my go to gun is an enfield.


The esteemed Mr Flory is an all the time CCW'er. That probably affected his decision.


admar: what type of vest is that? is that a south african or an ephod?

Kurt
November 7, 2003, 03:05 AM
AW. Good thread!

I own more bolt actions than anything else. They are my favorite firearm type. That said, I would never choose one in a completely unknown scenario like you've laid out here. Love and prejudices aside, they simply cannot cover as many bases as a semi-auto.

But I do agree that something has affected Mr. Flory.:confused:

Andrew Wyatt
November 7, 2003, 03:27 AM
eeh. Semi-auto operation is overrated, and there are many circumstances where it's not worth the poundage it adds.


a six pound .308 is nothing to sneeze at. also, there are many instances where a semi would be counterindicated for reliability sake. a semi is not as reliable as a bolt gun.

Kurt
November 7, 2003, 03:33 AM
Andrew, the whole world has gone semi.

bukijin
November 7, 2003, 06:00 AM
Not "down-under" unfortunately :(
Marlin 336 30-30 and a couple of boxes of ammo in the pocket. That would take care of just about anything I can envisage.

Andrew Wyatt
November 7, 2003, 06:03 AM
No it hasn't. scout/snipers don't use autos. ask an african hunter what gun he uses. it's not a semi.

both of those instances fall under the scope of this thread. belittling other people's choices does not.

Soap
November 7, 2003, 10:22 AM
Kurt- Sorry I was curt in my response (bwaahhahahaha!) ;) Bad puns aside, you raise some very valid points. If the 25 Muslim extremists are waiting for me outside, I'm moving 180 degrees in the opposite direction. I don't like the idea of fighting 1 on 25 for any reason. Concerning other firearms, you're right, I assumed that I could still carry my 1911. As for duration, I'd rather have the long range bolt gun over a long period of time by myself. Any sort of fighting I would do by myself would be shooting and scooting. I'm not going to stick around John Wayne style for a showdown. My first choice was actually my AR but then the more I thought about it I figured that the 700P was a better choice. Since the situation is completely ambigious (this we completely agree on), I would rather be as far away from the situation as possible until I could find out what is going on, therefore my choice of a long-range scoped bolt action.

Andrew- The esteemed Mr Flory... I appreciate it but I'm only 21 for goodness' sake! :D

Kurt
November 7, 2003, 11:18 AM
No problem intended here AW. Just advancing my opinion on a sometimes controversial topic, and I usually slip in somewhere that it's my opinion. Before I posted the " the whole world has gone semi" line, I wondered who would bring up that 00000.17% of the world who are snipers or African Hunters.

You sure "got me" there.

Daniel, I felt AW's premise here sort of thrust us into the middle of an unknown situation, and escape/evasion wasn't in keeping with the spirit of the post. Loved your pun, now let's work on AW's sense of humor!

:neener:

Steve Smith
November 7, 2003, 11:47 AM
Andrew, I too wonder how many can say that they are truly GOOD with the guns they chose. We can only hope that they will purpose it in their hearts to become experts with them.

goon
November 7, 2003, 11:58 AM
Exceptions aside….IMO, the folks that chose the hard-hitting semi-autos here should do far better in a larger percentage of these scenarios (and most others), than those that chose the bolt guns, or anything less.


Be that as it may, I don't have a hard hitting semi-auto yet.
The only semi-auto I have is an AK.
It lacks the range, power, and accuracy of my M-39.
If and when I feel the need to fight, I won't be constrained by trying to hold the ground.
On the contrary, I will let the enemy walk right by.
Then, when he thinks the is safe, I will learn how he looks through the sights of one of my rifles.
The accuracy and power to hit far away is more important to me than the ability to spray a hail of lead at someone.

I am saving up for a FAL though.;)
Why not have both if you can?

Kurt
November 7, 2003, 12:38 PM
Goon - It seems many folks are planning on getting something like a FAL, but for whatever reason haven't yet. With the likes of DSA and all the various levels of parts and parts guns out there, the current climate and availability is just about right.

About your enemy "avoidance" preference, I agree - to a point. I’d agree to let that enemy walk right by me, UNLESS my family, friends or partners are behind me. And a heavy-hitting semiauto gives you options and capabilities like litttle else if such is ever needed.

LostCajun
November 7, 2003, 02:04 PM
M1, 2 bandoliers of Danish, and a 50-cal can of Korean in clips.
(No handloads yet)
Decision time: 6- or 10- inch bayonet?

MMmmmmm..... Danish........
LostCajun

Andrew Wyatt
November 7, 2003, 03:21 PM
I appreciate it but I'm only 21 for goodness' sake!


My pappy told me to respect my elders. :)

I'm curious, though. Why is engaging multiple hostiles the first thing most people think about and subsistance hunting or just plain shooting for fun the last? the last two are far more likely to happen.

7.62FullMetalJacket
November 7, 2003, 03:30 PM
Because the most violent and unpredictable critter that you will run in to when the SHTF will be two-legged. After we get through that problem, then subsistence can come into play.

Kurt
November 7, 2003, 05:34 PM
I'm far more concerned about those folks that can't see the need for such things.

Andrew Wyatt
November 7, 2003, 06:45 PM
of course i can see the need for it. as soon as i can get up the scratch, i'm going to buy an m-1a of my own. with a plastic stock they're not particularly heavy. and they're in a real caliber. however, thay lack the versatility the boltgun has, since you can't shoot really heavy bullets in an m-1a.

bolt guns and semis both have their place. does one make a better GP gun than the other? I don't know.

Dr.Rob
November 7, 2003, 09:31 PM
I'm pretty sure Steve knows how to shoot.

Case in point though for any and all us armchair commandos...

When it comes to sneaking around in the woods and shooting at things.. how many of you have carried a big bore battle rifle and a dozen mags for a day?

That's where a trusty hunter and his bolt rifle will clean your clock. How many of us are snipers or african game hunters? Well I know more than a few around here. 'Course odds are in here you'll run into one a lot easier than out in the real world.

No I'm not saying that a bolt rifle is a good for CQB or laying down supressive fire or a lot of things that a good hi cap rifle can do, however one man with a bolt action rifle can do a whole lot of damage.

IE: "Get your rifle"

'Whats the matter?"

"Some psycho is on top of the university tower shooting strangers.. we just got deputized."

That's One scenario where your rattle battle 20-30 shot ar-15/ak/fal might not have the guts/range to get after someone behind cover, where good optics would allow you to pick a clean shot through.

Now of course, maybe Steve could use iron sights... but I couldn't.

Scenario again:

"Get your rifle"

"what's up?"

"There's aliens/giant spiders/UN troops landing at the Hardee's up on Route 1."

Well now here is an obvious choice for hi-cap gore splattering "shoot through the damn car Clyde he's hiding behind it" mayhem.

Yet another:

"Get your rifle"

"Whats up?"

"Guy with a chainsaw and a leather mask/escaped con/ just broke into the neighbor's place."

That's where my shotgun, not my Rifle would come off the rack. I'd likely grab slugs, too.


Or the ever popular:

"Get your rifle"

"Whats up?"

"giant crabs are taking over the island":

"Take these bandoliers for my M-1.. and for god's sake make sure we have plenty of butter!"

Warner
November 7, 2003, 09:47 PM
While I might admit to a trusty hunter being able to clean my clock, I trust that I'd have little to fear from such an individual. The other type of folks often travel in groups.

Heck, it's times like that even our trusty hunter may appreciate some semiauto capability.

Soap
November 7, 2003, 09:55 PM
I'm curious, though. Why is engaging multiple hostiles the first thing most people think about and subsistance hunting or just plain shooting for fun the last? the last two are far more likely to happen.

My sentiment exactly. When someone tells me to "Get your rifle!", I immediately think, "Where is the groundhog/raccoon/wild dog/etc.!?" Even my boxing instructor...up until recently Army SF...told me that his one gun would be a Thompson Center Encore, a Scout type, or other scoped bolt .308. This man has "seen the elephant", yet he chooses a relatively non-ninja weapon. Simply because his rifle duties here in the States have nothing to do with "engaging hostiles". When he thinks rifle in the U.S., he thinks hunting due to the fact that it is astronomically more likely that he would hunt with it versus downing "tangos". At least that is the impression that I get.

Warner
November 7, 2003, 10:06 PM
If you're limited in your ability to hunt, you don't eat meat for awhile. If you've decided to limit your capability in the defense arena (like follow-ups), you may die for no good reason.

Any high-speed SF individual's choices shouldn't automatically be suggested as good choices for the masses. Even general army troops or troopers on patrol are no longer issued bolt actions. There's good reasons for that.

Andrew Wyatt
November 7, 2003, 10:33 PM
*shrug* i just don't think that an ar-15/ak/mini-14 is the best general purpose rifle, because it lacks the chutzpah to kill game. they're right handy, though, which is an upshot.


oh the other hand, an m-14 isn't exactly the best, as it's heavy and unhandy. it's got oomph, though, which is nice.


a scout rifle or other light boltgun in .308 can be as handy as a minor caliber semi, and have as much juju as a major caliber one. yes, you can't make follow up shots quite as quickly (you can still make them dang quick) but you gain the ability to carry more water or whatever and the possibility of getting in the first shot.

admar2
November 8, 2003, 12:10 AM
can't kill game with a .223?

hmm.. I've killed a few that would probably disagree. ;)

goon
November 8, 2003, 01:57 AM
Admar2 has a point.
The .223 has alot going for it in the post SHTF apocalyptic world.
Ammo is available and cheap.
The round itself has been used in combat for about 50 years by various countries, and with the right ammo, it is pretty effective.
The guns that fire the round are generally pretty accurate (bolt action sporter, AR-15, even the lowly SAR-3).
It is powerful enough to take deer sized game with well placed shots, but it is still a .22 cal hole on somethng smaller.
The ammo is light, so you can carry alot.

Andrew Wyatt
November 8, 2003, 02:29 PM
it's not an effective round on larger critters, or at longer range though.

the transition point between "this is enough gun if you have okay placement" and "this is not enough gun but you might kill what you're shooting at if your placement is perfect with a little luck" is about deer size.

There are an aful lot of critters i'd not want to face with a .223.

It seems silly to have something as limited as a .223 for a GP rifle.

Weaps
November 8, 2003, 09:36 PM
Since we're doing armchair commando, and I'm sitting in an armchair, I'd have to take two rifles - the ones I own.

The M1917 Remington "Enfield" in .30-06 with one bandolier filled with stripper clips and another bandolier of ammo on a .30cal machine gun canvas belt. That's to "reach out and touch something." I know I can hit with it.

The Mini-14 with the 5 or so reliable mags. It's fairly lightweight and can be slung over the shoulder and bandoliers while using the M1917. If whatever is coming gets in a bit closer, the Mini can then be brought to bear. I know I can hit with that too. At some point if whatever is coming isn't stopped I'm turning tail and heading in the opposite direction. I'm not the army and I don't have to hold ground.

Hey, this is hypothetical right?

Kurt
November 8, 2003, 10:29 PM
Sure Weaps, it’s hypothetical. So let’s hypothesize this: What happens if those “whatevers” that are closing in on you, also have the basic smarts to hide behind things when you cut loose on them with your Mini-14? Chances are that they’d be fairly safe from those 5.56’s.... and your best efforts.

And that’s not the worst part. When you decide to turn tail and run, what happens if your family is behind you and sort of depending on you?

The superior answer to these sorts of situations is a 7.62 semi-auto rifle, and one in a military pattern, as opposed to a sporter. Long range hits and more effective barrier penetration are what you get when you put up with a tad more recoil and weight.

Weaps
November 8, 2003, 10:47 PM
Kurt, if my family is behind me they are armed too. And covering me with what they have. The parameters of the question was "You're going out to do something that requires a rifle. It could be anything. that's the only information you have. What rifle do you grab?"

I posted what I would grab, and my family isn't that big. If it were the immediate family and we were all having a big defend the compound from invaders scenario, then I'd be armed with what I mentioned, my dad would be armed with his .270, mom would be armed with his Marlin 39A, my wife would be armed with my 10/22, and everyone would have pistols for the last ditch effort should all of us miss for some reason.

I'd love to have a FAL or HK-91 to grab with a whole bunch of mags but I don't at the moment. I fully intend to get one (a CETME is most in the budget for the near term) but at the moment there you go.

Oh, and when you say "when you cut loose on them with your Mini-14? Chances are that they’d be fairly safe from those 5.56’s.... and your best efforts." you're saying that the Mini-14 is crap, right? Well, mine isn't.

Kurt
November 8, 2003, 11:24 PM
I wasn't speaking about your Mini-14 Weaps, I was pointing towards the capability ot the 5.56 / .223 rounds to get through to it's intended target.

goon
November 9, 2003, 12:43 AM
The truth is that a semi-auto such as a Garand, M-1A, FAL, etc. would be better. They combine range, power, penetration, and firepower.
But you have what you have and that is what you have.
Right now, I have four rifles that would fit as combat weapons.
A Savage 308, a milled AK, and two Finnish M-39s.
I want a FAL and I plan to get one soon, but I don't have it yet.
The Scout fires a more common round and it is a good, reliable shooter, but it isn't a combat weapon. After about four shots, the rounds start to walk their way off the target, up and right. I think that sustained fire with it may damage it, so it is out.
The AK works well and would hit hard close up, but I can't hit crap with it past two hundred yards. No good for engaging a superior enemy and getting away alive. It is out.
The M-39s are battle proven. They will shoot hard and far and penetrate what is in the way when they get there. They are accurate, reliable rifles.
They are bolt actions, and the Mosin Nagant action is even on the slow side of bolt guns.
But they have my full confidence and I would choose one of them if I had to respond to whatever right now, right here, this very minute with a column of Cuban troops approaching my hometown.

If an '06 and a .223 is what Weaps has, then that is what he has to use.
Can't fault the man for that.

CWL
November 9, 2003, 01:15 AM
*shrug* i just don't think that an ar-15/ak/mini-14 is the best general purpose rifle, because it lacks the chutzpah to kill game.

For survival, poaching or defensive situtations, whoever said that you will only use one round?

In Africa, elephants, rhinos, and other big game are regularly poached with AKs. Same in SE Asia. Shoot enough bullets into anything and it'll eventually go down.

For me, because I live in a surban/urban area, probably my M4gery or maybe my Daewoo rifle. Both use the same USGI M16 magazines so it's a tossup. I prefer my Daewoo, but ARs have parts compatability.

If I knew what to suspect, then I might change it to either my M1A scout with red dot optics or my VLE .308 bolty.

Edward429451
November 9, 2003, 01:16 AM
It'd have to be the M1A. More versatile, accurate than the AR.

When it comes to sneaking around in the woods and shooting at things.. how many of you have carried a big bore battle rifle and a dozen mags for a day?

I hauled my M1A around the mountains for a week hunting. Not with a dozen mags or a 70 lb pack. A couple mags and a day pack. It wasn't bad.

Kurt
November 9, 2003, 03:53 AM
I noticed a sideline discussion here. Things have occasionally (and legitimately) digressed from the main topic, and into a smaller sub-topic of rifle action types and caliber effectiveness discussion. It fits well for me until someone lays out what resembles a guilt trip. This happens when someone states that while they know it’s not a good choice, they’ll take weapon “A” because that is all they have available.

In my opinion, little of value is passed on in going there. Especially when all a persons reasoning’s are included and it consumes the entire post. Sure, I understand it’s a free country, but it becomes far more interesting, and some real back-and-forth learning can happen when the “best tool for the job” type stuff is discussed.

I don’t know about everyone else here, but I fully understand that guns can be bought, sold and traded. So if you don’t have some truly effective armament - but want some - it’s simply a matter of priorities and getting’ a move-on for most people.

Besides, at the beginning of this topic, who said that we’re starting this journey at home (with only what we have on hand), and not while browsing at our favorite well stocked gunshop?

Andrew Wyatt
November 9, 2003, 04:48 AM
For survival, poaching or defensive situtations, whoever said that you will only use one round?

For sport hunting, which is something a general purpose rifle is more often called to do then SHTF, the game wardens frown upon the use of a whole 30 round magazine to kill a single animal.

This is a General purpose rifle thread, not a SHTF only thread.

Backwoods
November 9, 2003, 04:56 PM
Garand....with a couple of bandoliers of clipped ammo, maybe a couple of clips of soft point reloads, just in case.

Don in Ohio

Abominable No-Man
November 9, 2003, 06:09 PM
If I could have only one.......I'd have to bow out and say M14. IMO, as good as it can get for a GP rifle.

Even though the thread specified one rifle, I can see carrying some kind of backup, too. There's a lot to be said for a bolt-action .30-06 tho. I could see a .30-06 with the Mini-14 backup. Or a M14 backed up by a 12-ga or pistol. I think a .223 would probably do better than a pistol at 200 yards and under.

ANM

Soap
November 9, 2003, 06:30 PM
You many of us here can state the current yield of their money market, IRA, or their investment account? What is your children's college savings/investment account at? How many even have these things at all? My point is that we spend a lot of time discussing SHTF but I think that many people overlook the most plausible scenarios. SHTF has the smallest probability out of all of the uses of a rifle. Personally, I believe it is wiser to devote the most thought and effort to the plausible scenarios rather than wasting time worrying about things that statistically have a tiny chance of happening.

JShirley
November 9, 2003, 07:00 PM
Well...I'd probably grab one of my Mossberg shotguns, either my 500 GR, or my IER-scoped bolt gun. Probably the 500; it's more versatile, in that I can unload it FAST. And accurately. :)

On a different day, I might grab my M1 carbine.

On another day, I might grab my .35 Whelen.

On yet another day, I might grab my G1 (FN FAL).

Or my .45-70. Or my .300 WM.

Like it matters. I can do what needs doing with any of them, and that's the important thing; to have skill and confidence with your weapons.

John

TechBrute
November 9, 2003, 07:13 PM
If I had no clue what is going on, I'd grab one of my AR carbines.

If I knew it was an outside gig, non-urban, I'd go for my LTR.

If I could pick one rifle that I didn't own, it would be a M1A scout.

Kurt
November 10, 2003, 12:20 AM
Daniel, why does a 767 passenger airliner have redundant back-up upon redundant back-up for it's vital flight systems? The chance of it ever needing them is as slim as those shtf scenarios you like so much not to think about.

The answer? Because terribly bad things can happen if you don't prepare properly.

And what about home, life, auto, and health insurance? Do you believe in those Daniel? Same principle really. Just consider a weapon (beyond a boltgun or poodleshooter) an insurance policy; there if needed.

I'm glad your family and the armed services of this great country (and who knows whom else) have provided you with a comfortable and relaxed spot to pontificate from. I guess you have little need to be concerned about "all things nasty" out there. I must admit to being somewhat envious, as my own focus sometimes seem to gravitate to what's happening in the rest of our world, and even some things here. When that happens Daniel, I see some possibilities happening here that may not have much comfort attatched to them - and I take notice.

BTW.....If and when things start shakin', we just have to get some of these mods involved - they seem really capable!

;)

Steve Smith
November 10, 2003, 01:03 PM
Dr. Rob, I would grab my iron-sighted M1A or AR becuase I use irons all the time. It's been years since I've looked though a scope I think. I know that they will aid in low-light situations, but they will also slow you down if you have to hit multiple targets quickly. My rigs just aren't set up for scopes and I can't see that changing any time soon. Using irons isn't a snob thing with me, it's just that I will go with what I'm familiar with.

Another reason I'd grab one of those rifles is because it has a lot of utility. Not only do they have the accuracy for long distance work, but if I take the wrong turn I don't have to reload every four rounds. Carrying a bunch or M1A mags is a lot of work, but a good vest helps tremendously.

goon
November 10, 2003, 05:38 PM
Kurt- I do have to give you credit for the point about everyone needing a weapon that is effective as possible. That is just plain good sense, no two ways about it.
I thought I was getting a pretty good one with my AK, and as it turns out, I did. It is pretty capable, but still far from perfect.
As noted, it lacks range, power, and accuracy when compared to a MBR.
A FAL is on my wish list, and I will be the first to tell you that I have actively trying to come up with ways to fanangle one out of my modest funds.
Right now though, the money ain't there.
I could sell the AK to help finance it, but that would mean that I would be losing a proven weapon to one that I have never even fired before.
That idea is out.
So that leaves me with bolt actions for now.
Others could be in the same boat, or they could just prefer to stick with the same rifle that they have thirty years' worth of hunting experience with.
I will agree that I think a FAL or G3 would be a better weapon than my hunting rifle, but that doesn't make a deer rifle useless.
Afghan guerillas are still using Lee-Enfields and Mosin Nagants on a daily basis. Many of them have no doubt seen more combat than I have.
The bolt action may be old, but it has been putting people in the ground since long before I was born and it would still do it now.

Kurt
November 10, 2003, 08:25 PM
Goon – I would definitely keep that AK, especially if it’s in 7.62X39. If ever needed for area defense, it will solidly put to rest any controversy over #4 Buck vs. 00 Buck – or any handgun stopping power debate you can think of. It will get through to (and be effective on) things that a 5.56 cannot. If the penetration factor isn’t a problem in your circumstances, it is a tremendous “up close and personal” choice in carbines. The gun is light and fast (even more so with a 20 round mag attached), it’s tough, stone reliable and intimidating.

IMO, the FAL is also a great choice, and very likely the best one available today in its class. It will at least double your “reach and whump” levels over the AK.

All else being equal, every other MBR clone or parts gun available today has some serious “issues” swirling around it. The FAL very seldom does. That reason alone is good enough for giving it some consideration. This is especially true since nobody really knows what he or she may be up against one day……..despite the levity shown by some.

GigaBuist
November 10, 2003, 11:58 PM
Maybe I'm a little weird... but with all this SHTF talk and people talking about what rifle they'll grab, how many mags they have loaded up and on a LBV ready for action, etc.... does anybody consider grabbing a cleaning rod, solvent, and some patches?

If you've got 180rnds of .223 for your AR on you, by the time you're finished with that (and hopefully aquired more ammo) ... I'd want to swab the thing out in the event that I've got to call on it to push another 200rnds through in a hurry. Unlikely? Very! But, if I've got a whole lot of gunk stuck into a weapon I'd like having something to get the crap out with.

Ever had a paintball bust in your gun while playing? It sucks.

Rod, patch cloths, and Hoppes #9 is going to add about what... 5oz to your weight? Worth it to me.

I always wonder why I never see this in somebody's Bug Out Bag. Maybe I'm just paranoid.

Sven
November 11, 2003, 12:07 AM
Only have one big rifle now, M1A - it seems it would fit the bill for going into the unknown pretty well: semi-auto, .308, iron sights work out to 600 (or beyond, from what I've read).

ShaiVong
November 11, 2003, 12:23 AM
Giga, I have a little squeeze bottle of breakfree in my A2 stock and a chamber brush, and one of those doublesided toothbrushes. Thats all you really need. You dont need to clean the bore out, just scrub the bolt and carrier from time to time. Heck, in a pinch you could just scrub it with a shirt and some water, then dry and re-oil. I havent cleaned my AR in about 200 rounds, and it doesnt look like its going to be needing a cleaning any time soon either.

duckfoot
November 11, 2003, 05:44 AM
Fal and 6 loaded 20 round mags

goon
November 11, 2003, 07:44 AM
Cleaning isn't really necessary with an AK.
I have gotten by with several hundred rounds through my bolt actions w/o cleaning too.
I don't regularly do this, but it is nice to know how far your guns can be stretched if you have to.
Mine will go far enough.:D

Soap
November 11, 2003, 10:45 AM
Kurt- Exactly, it is the redundant back up system to the back up back up system. SHTF is firearms plan Z for me. It is the absolute last case scenario where I would use a firearm. Thus, I don't feel the need to be so anal about my choices. Because as JShirley stated, "Like it matters. I can do what needs doing with any of them, and that's the important thing; to have skill and confidence with your weapons." Amen to that. Regarding insurance policies, when I select one I view and review it extremely carefully, but I don't feel the need to think about it on an Insurance SHTF thread all the time on the insurance message boards ;)

Now when you bring up the armed forces point, you're being slightly insulting. Just because I don't debate AK vs. AR ad naseum in a SHTF thread that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate what our armed forces do :rolleyes: There are many types of people that build this country. The armed forces being a key element. Another key element being industrialists and financial experts. In addition, our armed forces wouldn't exist as we know it if there were not many people here at home working and paying taxes. That is great that you pay notice and that you believe you are being watchful. But many people who believe they are being watchful are missing out on the most obvious of issues. I would consider my own personal strategy to be: make gear choices, train like crazy with them and go on with my life. If you're stuck on step 1 you're probably going to miss out on steps 2 & 3.

Brian Williams
November 11, 2003, 11:06 AM
My Marlin 1894C in 357. It has a Marble's tang sight and a nylon sling.

I keep a box of various 357's near by with 38 spec 158grLSWC, 125 gr JHP, 357 158grLSWC, 125 gr JHP, 158 gr xtp jsp in it for multiple uses.

It is also compatible with my CCW, a S&W 13 and my Belt gun a S&W 586 half lug.

Kurt
November 11, 2003, 02:29 PM
Daniel, It’s been interesting, but I must leave you to your own resources now. I find that you cannot stick to a common point during our discussions, and space here is much too limited for that sort of thing. When I speak of you feeling safe and sound in your environment, and you rebut with those that have built this country. I speak of the multi-level advantages of a certain weapon type, and you call that anal. You make blind assumptions about me....... while I have challenged you on your own words, thoughts and ideas.

Some parting thoughts…

Proper preparation is a beautiful thing Daniel, but one cannot be forced into it. From your words here, you do not yet possess those superior back-up systems that we discussed. From my perspective, you haven’t even convinced yourself of their utility yet. So for you, the point is moot.

You infer that you are proud of your “training”. Training is good, and please, certainly train all you wish. But consider this; the WORLDS most highly trained and deadly martial arts expert is no match for a stay-at-home wife and her sidearm – and even if her training was simply basic. The simple addition of a “proper” and superior weapon there tilted the odds between those two. Moral....possess (and train with) at least the possible equal or your opponent.

Oops! I’ll save you some typing energy here. The above was just a correlation, Daniel. Just expand that same principle further, apply it to our discussion and scenarios, and observe the larger picture. With your weapons and training….strive for BALANCE.

I notice some assumptions from you concerning my information sources, my experience, abilities and training. I feel that this would be a great time for one of those “little light bulbs” to appear near you. I’ve learned that being naïve about something like judging other folks is seldom a good thing. And when it goes bad, it usually involves over-estimating yourself when interlocked with someone that you really know little about. If circumstances are right, one day that sort of thing could bite you quite firmly in the patootie!

Needless to say, my side of our back-and-forth here has been based on my opinions. I have attended to your opinions and comments until now, when it appears the amicable portions between us have gone bye-bye.

If you choose to never be on an equal footing (weapons, training, tactics, mindset, information) with those you may one day be up against, so be it. But one fine day, one of us may experience quite a distressing revelation. I’ll personally bet that it won’t be the one who simply spent some extra bucks on a proper “insurance” policy……

Keep safe :)

Soap
November 11, 2003, 06:05 PM
Kurt- Hate to burst your bubble here friend but the odds of you actually having to execute your extremely well thought out SHTF plan are about nil. To be quite frank, you say I don't possess the back up systems for proper SHTF action...let me state for the record that I really don't care. I have more pressing issues in my life to make the nil-sized possibility of Red Dawn a major concern of mine. I cannot keep from conjuring up images of ultra-prepared people who are spending $5K on MREs and fresh water storage that cannot afford to send their child to college next year. Your priorities and my priorites are obviously completely different. You bring that out in this statement:

If you choose to never be on an equal footing (weapons, training, tactics, mindset, information) with those you may one day be up against, so be it. But one fine day, one of us may experience quite a distressing revelation.

The likelihood of facing people in armed conflict for me is tiny . The likelihood of me having to provide monetary wealth, mental/physical/spiritual well-being, and opportunity to my own circle is 100%. Enough of talking about slaying Goblins, I have to study for my econ and strategic management exams.

BTW- No hard feelings. I'm sure we would get along just fine at the range :cool:

Warner
November 11, 2003, 06:07 PM
Great stuff Kurt, and I'll just assume that the expert just had his Black Belt along, and not a Kimber.:D

At the current FAL pricing levels, I can't imagine seeing any resistance at all, let alone this much.

Andrew Wyatt
November 11, 2003, 06:17 PM
gah. next time i want to find out what everyone has for a general purpose rifle, i'l just ask "What's your general purpose rifle?" instead of mentioning SHTF.

Warner
November 11, 2003, 06:23 PM
Now, now. There's no reason to be alarmed at a bit of serious discussion once in awhile in our sound byte world. I think your original premise was good, and forced folks to show what they're made of (or not).

goon
November 11, 2003, 09:08 PM
The purpose was and still is good.
It just happens that we don't always agree with each other about everything.
I personally respect a man more if he is willing to stand there in my face and argue that I am wrong.
I may not agree with him, but at least he has the backbone to hold his ground.
That is a character trait that many people no longer have, so I am kind of glad when I come across someone who does.

SMLE
November 28, 2003, 10:28 AM
My 1909 SMLE MkIII, as many friends with SMLEs as I can get my hands on.

sturmruger
November 28, 2003, 03:55 PM
I am pretty sure I would bring my SKS. I have several 30 round mags that are very reliable. I can shoot decent out to 225 yards with the open sites and even further with a scope.

Mannlicher
November 28, 2003, 04:40 PM
with no more intel than that, I 'm staying inside.

Dr.Rob
November 28, 2003, 08:28 PM
Paintball has little to do with needing a rifle, besides my AK has a cleaning rod mounted on it.

Imagine if every 20th shot your ammo disintegrated into a gooey mess in the bore? Yikes.

As far as taking something else.. cleaning patches etc.. I'd likely grab my B.O.B./Day pack anyway.

If you enjoyed reading about "perhaps shtf, perhaps not scenario #1" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!