New 9mm Bullet


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MissouriBullet
November 3, 2009, 11:01 AM
Any interest in the classic 9mm 115 RN Parabellum bullet? I ordered the mould set yesterday, hoping we could sell a bullet or two.

I'm thinking this will be a popular bullet and have no idea why I waited 3 years to build out for this one. Our 125 grain RN 9mm bullet is our very best seller - out of nearly 50 bullets - and I should have long since figured out that Georg Luger's original design would probably be nearly as popular.

Anyhow, we'll have it within a month or so (Magma continues to be backlogged on mould orders.)

We're going to call this one "Parabellum." No contest on that name :-)

Brad

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Galil5.56
November 3, 2009, 11:14 AM
I'd rather see a 115 grain SWC sized .357" and .358", somthing along the lines of the Lee 105 keeping the nice square base. Tried 115 RN's, and in my experience prefer the 125's. Good luck with your continued success.

Travis Two
November 3, 2009, 12:11 PM
I'd rather see a 115 grain SWC sized .357" and .358", somthing along the lines of the Lee 105 keeping the nice square base. Tried 115 RN's, and in my experience prefer the 125's. Good luck with your continued success.
www.pennbullets.com has a 115gr. SWC available in .357 or .358. Its an excellent shooter. Cuts very clean holes and is very accurate.

freakshow10mm
November 3, 2009, 12:34 PM
Is this like the Slippery 9mm?

mongoose33
November 3, 2009, 04:52 PM
I'm waiting to run low on bullets so I can get some of the 9mm, and you have just made my life harder. If you only have one style there's only one bullet I have to work up loads for. Now you've made my life harder! Do I do 115 or 125?

:)

I guess I'll just get 1000 of each and see what works better. I really like the 200gr RNFP in .45.

jard
November 3, 2009, 06:38 PM
I expect that your sales on the 124grainers will just drop when your sales of the 115 increase.

Roccobro
November 3, 2009, 07:33 PM
I don't see that happening. But it certainly is possible.

Justin

MissouriBullet
November 3, 2009, 10:45 PM
I expect that your sales on the 124grainers will just drop when your sales of the 115 increase.
That could easily happen, but it doesn't matter. The important thing is being able to provide exactly what someone wants. Adding another bullet is always a risk. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. I have mould sets that produced bullets that have sold one box. But that one customer got what he wanted and he'll be back for more and eventually, others will want that bullet, too.

So I don't see a downside to having another bullet in our line that is similar to another.

Brad

MissouriBullet
November 3, 2009, 10:46 PM
Is this like the Slippery 9mm?
It looks just like that slippery thing!

MissouriBullet
November 3, 2009, 10:47 PM
I'd rather see a 115 grain SWC sized .357" and .358", somthing along the lines of the Lee 105 keeping the nice square base. Tried 115 RN's, and in my experience prefer the 125's. Good luck with your continued success.
Magma doesn't make a mould set for that one :-(

freakshow10mm
November 3, 2009, 10:56 PM
It looks just like that slippery thing!
Sweet. My molds are a 135gr nominal. They feed in anything. It's a kick ass bullet. Seriously guys, this profile rocks. I run the heck out of this bullet in a fully automatic 9mm M16 at 675 rounds per minute.

Galil5.56
November 3, 2009, 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galil5.56
I'd rather see a 115 grain SWC sized .357" and .358", somthing along the lines of the Lee 105 keeping the nice square base. Tried 115 RN's, and in my experience prefer the 125's. Good luck with your continued success.

Magma doesn't make a mould set for that one :-(

True, and a 115 SWC "9mm" has always looked interesting to me... Always thought a "little H&G68" for 9mm would be great, and having seen this bullet for years via the link Travis Two provided, I wondered who made the mold?

My .02, but a BB style taking away from not much bearing surface to begin with on a light cast bullet sized .356" can be problematic, especially considering all the potential groove diameters out there over the defacto .3555". My European brand 9mm's like sizing of .357-.358", and the more bearing surface the better. Always thought this Magma bullet looked like a good match:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/Abucaster/130Magma9mm.jpg

which is similar to the accurate Lee 125 2R I currently cast myself from WW's, that drops 128 grains. Nice accurate bullet, but the lube groove is a bit skimpy as shown via this drawing courtesy of TMT enterprises:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/Abucaster/Lee20Mold20356-125-2R2020125_gr.jpg

Again, best of luck with your business, and perhaps when I'm feeling a bit too lazy to cast my own/run out of metal I'll give your bullets "a shot". :)

JA22
November 3, 2009, 11:49 PM
I, for one, will be ordering the 115 gr!

Thanks!

firstg19
November 3, 2009, 11:55 PM
i will also be ordering some, my local shop Graf's Reloading in St. Charles, MO, doesnt carry lead 115 grain in any style. It sure would be nice to see missouri bullet in there. ;)

ljnowell
November 4, 2009, 10:26 AM
That could easily happen, but it doesn't matter. The important thing is being able to provide exactly what someone wants. Adding another bullet is always a risk. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. I have mould sets that produced bullets that have sold one box. But that one customer got what he wanted and he'll be back for more and eventually, others will want that bullet, too.

So I don't see a downside to having another bullet in our line that is similar to another.

Brad

Thats the attitude that keeps us coming back Brad. Great products are nothing without great customer service!

jjohnson
November 4, 2009, 11:00 AM
Yep, the reason I buy the 124-125 cast 9mm is because the 115s aren't offered by many casters. I'd prefer the lighter weight and will be standing in the same line to buy some when you get your molds.

One thing also mentioned here - about having the same bullet sized to .357 or .358 - I'd buy those, too. Awhile back I had one of your competitors size some 95-grain bullets for .380 sized to .3575 so I could use 'em for cowboy/plinking/short range target practice. I'll be buying those again, but if you were to offer one of the 9mm bullets "sized large" I'd buy some.

You might consider using a "poll" here.

Keep asking, Brad, you'll keep getting answers. :evil:

rbernie
November 4, 2009, 11:15 AM
I buy (and shoot) a lot of cast 9mm bullets. I've bought at least 10K of the Missouri 124gr SmallBalls, and maybe as many as 20K.

Problem is, the profile of the SmallBall bullet is untraditional (the shoulder is too wide) and won't work in a number of my pistols. My CZs and BHPs and 940s are the typical culprits that will NOT chamber a SmallBall profile, but there have been others as well. This thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=421949) has some of the back discussion on the issue.

Right now, I have to run two 9mm cast loads - one with SmallBall for some pistols and another using a Dardas or Kead bullet for the more finicky pistols.

I am all in favor of Missouri offering a cast 9mm design that will mimic the traditional 9mm bullet shape.

jjohnson
November 5, 2009, 02:05 PM
Yeah, funny how most of us handloaders like to play with different bullets but would laugh at women who like to have more than a couple pairs of shoes. :D

Choices are great to have. Being tinkerers by nature, I'd suspect many of us would buy something new just to experiment with.

Buckshot Bill
November 8, 2009, 12:00 PM
Howdy, Brad. I have an FEG PJK-9HP Browning Hi-power clone that is finicky about what bullet shapes it likes. Actually, the 115 GR. RN. bullet is the only one that will feed in mine, but it seems to work very well. TC shapes do not-in mine. So, yes, I'd also be interested in you offering a 115 GR. RN. Thanks, Buckshot Bill

MissouriBullet
December 13, 2009, 03:01 PM
Finally!

Ok, we got the 9mm 115 grain mould set in a couple of weeks ago and I made time today, finally, to run some of them. They're cute as can be! Georg Luger would be proud (in a stuffy way, I'm sure.)

So, here's the deal: It took a long time to get this bullet to market so we're going to blast them out the door. There is an introductory special on this bullet for you guys who want it. Initially they will be available only in thousand-lot quantities and we're going to price them - for a week or so, only - at $45.00/thousand. This is the best price you're going to find, I think. Afterwards the price will be $26.00 or so per 500. So this is the deal.

Look for them on the website on about Tuesday.

Their name (of course!) is "Parabellum."

Brad

R.W.Dale
December 13, 2009, 03:06 PM
got any pics?

MissouriBullet
December 13, 2009, 03:30 PM
Jeepers Krochus, give a guy a break! :-)

I just cast some today, no sizing crew on site today (it's SUNDAY!!) to get them sized until tomorrow. You'd want a pic with a nice blue lube ring around the bullets, right? Well, wait 'til Tuesday and the photo will be on the website.

Thank you for your question.

Brad

thelaststand
December 13, 2009, 03:30 PM
YOu better get busy casting these because I'm about to order a lot :D

thelaststand
December 13, 2009, 03:31 PM
By the way, how many can you put into one shipment cost of 10.85?

MissouriBullet
December 13, 2009, 03:32 PM
YOu better get busy casting these because I'm about to order a lot :D
I'm taking the rest of the day off! You can't make me go back out there!! I've been casting since 5:45 this morning. Do I know how to enjoy myself, or what?

MissouriBullet
December 13, 2009, 03:50 PM
By the way, how many can you put into one shipment cost of 10.85?
3500 would be the number, right at 64 lbs.

thelaststand
December 13, 2009, 04:37 PM
data.hodgdon.com has data on the 115 gr LRN which is what I'll be using for these.

MissouriBullet
December 13, 2009, 05:11 PM
I see that 231 is in there. Is that the universal powder, or what?

Roccobro
December 13, 2009, 07:09 PM
So if it is sold by the K, how are we going to order a full 3500 box??? :D

Justin

ETA: Where is the "order RIGHT NOW!" button? hehe

MissouriBullet
December 13, 2009, 07:19 PM
So if it is sold by the K, how are we going to order a full 3500 box??? :D

Justin

ETA: Where is the "order RIGHT NOW!" button? hehe
..order 3.5k of them? :-)

spartywrx
December 13, 2009, 07:36 PM
Man, I just ordered 1K of the 125gr LRNs. Next batch I'm probably going to get some 115gr. too. Hodgdon has the 115 LRN data with HP38/WW231, which is what I use

idahoglock36
December 13, 2009, 08:53 PM
Hey Brad,

Are the 115's out yet? Also, any chance of getting the 45/200 IDP #4 with a lower Brinell around 12-15?

Thanks

Seedtick
December 13, 2009, 11:16 PM
I'll be putting in my order Tuesday also.
:D

ST

DesmoDucRob
December 14, 2009, 12:03 AM
I expect that your sales on the 124grainers will just drop when your sales of the 115 increase.
I doubt the Small Balls will decrease in popularity with the introduciton of the 115's. They are currently my faithfull USPSA bullet, and I suspect that I'm not alone. My story may change a bit once I get a load for the Missouri 147 fp's smoothed out ;)

MissouriBullet
December 14, 2009, 10:11 AM
Hey Brad,

Are the 115's out yet? Also, any chance of getting the 45/200 IDP #4 with a lower Brinell around 12-15?

Thanks
But we have those already! Cowboy #4, 12 BHN, same price.

wally
December 14, 2009, 10:23 AM
Just make sure they are plenty hard enough, I've had trouble with leading in 115 gr 9mm hard casts, not so much with 124 gr bullets. But I use 147 gr running 900-950 fps now. Your's work great!

Always thought a "little H&G68" for 9mm would be great
The idea sounds good, but the H&G68 was designed to hit the feed path in a 1911 like ball ammo does when loaded OAL 1.25" and works great in 1911s but not so great in other .45 autoloaders. I've a fair number that are fine with any JHP I try but choke on the H&G68.

--wally.

MissouriBullet
December 14, 2009, 10:35 AM
Just make sure they are plenty hard enough, I've had trouble with leading in 115 gr 9mm hard casts, not so much with 124 gr bullets. But I use 147 gr running 900-950 fps now. Your's work great!


The idea sounds good, but the H&G68 was designed to hit the feed path in a 1911 like ball ammo does when loaded OAL 1.25" and works great in 1911s but not so great in other .45 autoloaders. I've a fair number that are fine with any JHP I try but choke on the H&G68.

--wally.
Wally, they're plenty hard, no worries.

I had the same problem with the 9mm SWC's back in the 80's. I don't know where Larry Clay of Lane Bullets got his SWC moulds, as Magma Engineering doesn't make them, but they were fine little semi-wadcutters. But they wouldn't feed reliably in my 1911 and I gave up on them, opting instead for the 147 grain RNFP design which we now make as the SubSonic bullet. That little dude will feed in anything.

Galil5.56
December 14, 2009, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Always thought a "little H&G68" for 9mm would be great

The idea sounds good, but the H&G68 was designed to hit the feed path in a 1911 like ball ammo does when loaded OAL 1.25" and works great in 1911s but not so great in other .45 autoloaders. I've a fair number that are fine with any JHP I try but choke on the H&G68.

--wally.

I can't say I get even remotely the same results when I use #68 commercial clones in my .45 Auto's (SIG P220 and GI spec 1911). Both pistols feed, fire, eject perfectly, and I seat them to 1.20" +/- depending on case length to where I get just a a tiny amount of the shank above the case mouth.

Same perfect functioning using my Lee 200 grain SWC TL's I cast myself, and seat @ 1.185". Only problem I have ever had was when taper crimping was a bit light due to case variance, and a tiny "bite" was taken out of the case mouth and bullet chambering in the P220. As for LSWC's in 9mm, my Beretta M9 feeds any bullet style I have tried perfectly, and that includes 158 grain LSWC's and LSWC HP's... Lot of other folks report great accuracy and good feeding from the little Lee 358-105-SWC. As we all know, all guns are different, and it pays to experiment.

Husker_Fan
December 14, 2009, 12:01 PM
Brad,
I just want to say that this thread is exemplary of how you have suceeded. I didn't want to bump an earlier thread but most people hear are probably familiar with someone not-so-slyly marketing their wares and claiming their bullets were optimized by hardness. Someone could easily copy your business plan, and perhaps match your prices (for a short time), but I can't imagine anyone meeting your level of customer service or having your work ethic. Keep it up.

Oh, and now that you will have these, I may have to pick up my first 9mm. I've always wanted a 9mm HP and these bullets should work well.

thelaststand
December 14, 2009, 01:21 PM
....

R.W.Dale
December 14, 2009, 08:39 PM
Look for another 1k order come tomorrow

MissouriBullet
December 14, 2009, 09:37 PM
Look for another 1k order come tomorrow
Well, I'm heading back into the office in the house now with some samples to photograph and put up on the website. They'll get there unless Jo Ann whacks me with a 2x4 for making her work this late after all the bagging/tagging/shipping she had to do today (Monday's are huge shipping days.)

With luck, they'll be available in 45 minutes.

Quoheleth
December 14, 2009, 09:40 PM
Re: 147gr Subsonic: That little dude will feed in anything.

Even CZ75/85s? Curious, b/c I have to shorten the OAL of the 125s go get 'em to run in my 85.

Q

thelaststand
December 14, 2009, 09:58 PM
Are there extra discounts for very large orders on your bullets at missouri bullet company?

MissouriBullet
December 14, 2009, 10:05 PM
Are there extra discounts for very large orders on your bullets at missouri bullet company?
We do offer volume discounts. First one beyond 5% comes in at 25k bullets, mix and match. Top discount (trade secret alert!!) is 20% at 100k bullets. Not huge discounts, but we're very competitive to start with. This is primarily due to the fact that I underpay the help.

Brad

Roccobro
December 14, 2009, 10:13 PM
This is primarily due to the fact that I underpay the help.

ROLF.. Lemme guess... Nieces and nephews? hehe

Justin

MissouriBullet
December 14, 2009, 10:17 PM
So I took a crude cellphone photo from my Android. This is the sizer output pan from the first batch I sized tonight (about 5k bullets.)

We've cast up maybe 15k so far, another 8 will be cast tonight and we will size all of them tomorrow. They will be on the website by no later than Tuesday morning.

Just for grins, while taking the photo of the Parabellums, I decided to photograph a few views of the shop and will post them in a main thread in this forum shortly.

MissouriBullet
December 14, 2009, 10:18 PM
ROLF.. Lemme guess... Nieces and nephews? hehe

Justin
No, they're all too smart to work for me :-)

Roccobro
December 14, 2009, 10:37 PM
Look at that big bowl of happiness....

Justin

MissouriBullet
December 14, 2009, 10:57 PM
Brad,
I just want to say that this thread is exemplary of how you have suceeded. I didn't want to bump an earlier thread but most people hear are probably familiar with someone not-so-slyly marketing their wares and claiming their bullets were optimized by hardness. Someone could easily copy your business plan, and perhaps match your prices (for a short time), but I can't imagine anyone meeting your level of customer service or having your work ethic. Keep it up.

Oh, and now that you will have these, I may have to pick up my first 9mm. I've always wanted a 9mm HP and these bullets should work well.
Husker_Fan, let me thank you for your kind thoughts.

You know, anybody is welcome to my business model, which is not a secret. I like to think that we at MBC did actually pioneer the hardness optimization model. Maybe not, but I will say that I have noticed that since our product has caught the attention of so many wonderful customers, many other casting companies seem to be specifying their hardness numbers. Maybe I'm imagining that, but I don't think so.

I have always been an "open-source" person, thinking that secrecy is bad for everyone. I'm happy to share my thoughts on the business and how I tend to run things. We all work hard here and we're trying to work smarter every day and we must never forget that every customer is our boss. When we make a mistake, we will move heaven and earth to acknowledge and attempt to fix it. That is all that we can do and if that isn't good enough for folks, then I can at least say that I tried. An example would be from last year when Josh, our day sizer guy, was sizing .38 Match and .357's on two sizers. Well, one of those sizers had run the 9mm SmallBall the previous day and Josh forgot to change the die in that one. So, we wound up with 118,000 .38's and .357's, half of which were sized to .356 instead of .357. We didn't realize this until 5 days after the fact when one of our customers called and alerted us. I made the decision that we would replace every .38 and .357 that we had shipped since the day the sizing error was made and we made and shipped out 118,000 replacements to over 75 customers. That took 3 days and there wasn't time to alert people in advance, as we were working 18 hour days to get this done. We included a note explaining the situation with every replacement carton and the whole thing wound up costing us $6200.00, as we had no way of knowing which of the 50% of our customers had gotten the undersized bullets. I guess we surprised some folks when their new bullets showed up.

So that's how we deal with mistakes, except for the times when I lose it with those very very few customers who insist on being idiots.

But anyone is welcome to our business plan, the basics of which include:
1.) Self-finance the hardware and building infrastructure
2.) Keep your day job and work for free until you're showing a profit, for as long as it takes
3.) Buy lead in advantageous quantities (we're sitting on almost 60 tons right now)
4.) Underpay your help :-)
5.) Reward your customers' decision to purchase your product by busting your butt to make them happy
6.) Buy all the insurance you need to handle worst-case scenarios
7.) Live and work on the same property
8.) Do that in a rural, unzoned county
9.) Get your wife to do the company website and do it using open-source software (Linux or Solaris)
10.) Buy enough equipment that you can maximize production per unit of time rather than pay for manpower (remember John Henry?)
11.) Maintain stores of every imaginable spare part, controller, counter, connectors, and motors
12.) Maintain a strong supply of Sam Adams Black Lager to reward yourself after a long day
13.) Oh yeah - that hardness-optimized thing. Very important!

So, that's my secret business model.

Thank you again, Husker_Fan, for your thoughts.

Brad

ps - Jo Ann wanted me to fire Josh. I explained that I had too much invested in him to fire him. And now he's our best employee. Not bad for a 20 year old kid, I think.

thelaststand
December 15, 2009, 12:39 AM
What is the discount at 25k?

MissouriBullet
December 15, 2009, 12:50 AM
What is the discount at 25k?
Ten percent.

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