Laser grips .........

[P95Carry]

Can't seem to recollect reading much - if anything here .... about these things.

Always see em advertized but ...... are they just gimmick?? The principle seems sound but .. are they any use, at all??

[pax]

I have shot both the Crimson Trace and the LaserMax laser grips -- the LaserMax on a 10mm Glock and the CT on several different guns.

Laser grips are definitely not just a gimmick. They are also definitely not the solution to all shooting problems. The truth is somewhere in between those two points of view.

It is not true that you will immediately be able to get faster, better hits with a laser. It will take you more than a few shots before your reflexes learn to "trust" the laser, and your shooting will continue to become faster for quite awhile if you work at it. It is true that if you practice for awhile, you will be able to get faster, better hits with a laser.

It is true that the laser dot disappears under certain conditions, so you will still need to use iron sights under those conditions. If you try to use the laser, discover it isn't bright enough, and transition to iron sights, it will take more time than if you simply used iron sights to begin with. However, it only takes a little while of practice before you "instinctively" know whether or not the laser will be useful when you pull your gun. After awhile you will "instinctively" begin using the best sighting system for the conditions.

It is true that the laser is all-but-indispensible in low light situations. It isn't just about speed, it's about accuracy -- the laser is positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, no question about it more accurate in low light situations than any other shooting system ever devised.

The laser grips I've played with have been sturdy and reliable. Of course you must remember to charge the batteries regularly, but that isn't really an issue since you can do that when you clean your gun (you do that regularly, too, right?).

To my mind, snubbies benefit most from being fitted with a laser. These guns are easily concealed and light to carry, but not always easy to shoot well because of the short sight radius. When fitted with a laser, they become easily concealed, light to carry, and easy to shoot well. That's a match made in heaven right there.

pax

[BluesBear]

YEs to everything Pax said.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Heck I probably couldn't say it as well.

Cheaper Than Dirt has a really good price on the Crimson Trace.

[P95Carry]

Pax ...... much appreciate your input m'am ...... nicely written up response. All you say makes absolute sense.

I think I will look further on this ... bearing in mind the pro's and con's .... certainly the appeal for low light is hard to deny. I think cost will be the deciding factor as to whether it is something to try out.



BB .. I will check that out thru CheaperThanDirt, thx.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, forgot to ask .. are they easy to set up for POI adjustment etc?

[Daniel Flory]

Argh. I hate lasers, let's leave it at that. :banghead:

[Kentucky Rifle]

I just bought a set of Crimson trace laser grips from Cheaper Than Dirt. (Along with LOTS of other stuff.:rolleyes: ) I like them. They're sort of a gimmick thing that works well.:D

KR

[SouthpawShootr]

I ordered a set of CT grips from Cheaper than Dirt a couple of weeks ago. A week later, somebody in customer service e-mails me and tells me they were cancelling the order b/c inventory depletion. :cuss: Fine, but why did that take a whole week? :cuss:

I'll get it from someplace else.

[yzguy]

as with anything, you will improve with practice, but I found that I shot much faster very quickly with the laser grips than with irons. I still shoot more with standard sites, but still shoot better/faster with the laser.

The laser grips are really the only laser I like. You can use normal holsters, does not add bulk or wires, activates with normal grip, windage and elevation adjustable, bright dot, and holds zero. They are expensive, but they are the best...

also Ultimate outdoors has pretty good prices on them:
http://www.ultout.com/crimsontrace-sights-laser,night,standard.htm

[P95Carry]

Well .... some interesting comments ..... and more positive than I expected.

Just spoke with a buddy of mine from down TX and turns out he has put some on his SP-101 ..... I was thinking of that or even for my M85 Taurus as a possibility. He really likes his .. finds them great as an ''adjunctive'' measure ... meaning he still uses his iron sights as usual but has taught himself to also aquire the dot quickly in lower lights. He reckons they could make all the difference in a low light situation.

I am suddenly converted! Well, anyways, enough to wanna try these out. They are wicked expensive and so one reason why I'd never even considered a purchase. Guess it's bin rattlin around my head for long enough, that I decided to start this thread!

Cheaper Than Dirt have the M85 ones but nothing listed for SP ......... a bit of lookin around yielded .........

http://www.impactguns.com/store/index.html

And whilst I don't have the link to actual page ... found they do the ones for SP (as well as M85) .... so have gone ahead and burned boats and ordered one .... Crimson Trace Laser Grips Ruger SP-101CMTLG101 These are about $10 more expensive than the Cheaper Than Dirt prices ... well, when compared with the M85 one, but .... seems like at least I can get what i want.

I shall see how they shape up later and post my findings.

[bountyhunter]

If you are putting a laser on your defensive gun, be warned: in a low light condition, your adversary will be given a perfect aim point to zero in on and kill you with. IMO, night sights are a smarter option for a defense gun.

As for target shooting, I find a red dot scope gives the fastest target acquisition of any aiming system. One thing most shooters don't realize is that at least 90% of their shooting "error" on the target is not because they can't aim the gun accurately with iron sights, it's because they move the gun when they pull the trigger. At the range, it's fun to watch somebody with a laser put it on the "X" and then try to figure out where the hole went after the bang. They think it's like Miami Vice where you see a red dot and a hole magically appears when you shoot.

[P95Carry]

in a low light condition, your adversary will be given a perfect aim point to zero in on and kill you with Very good point BountyHunter .... one I was cognisant of when I first thought of these things... the main ''downside'' let's say!!

I am gonna put night sights on my P97 probably ... a see how those shape up too ... in the end I'll select what seems best overall for the low light scenario.

I hear ya re moving the gun when shooting ... I have shot for many years tho and so am pretty much in control of that aspect ..... so maybe i guess just seekin that ''edge'' .... we'll see.

Guess with the laser deal ... it's one of those things I just need to try!!

[JCM298]

I've got CT grips on an S&W 340SC. They are the new style, over-molded.
I had the original style but they did nothing to tame recoil and the new ones do. I had the originals for nearly 4 years and the new ones for about six months.

I've read the pros and cons but decided to buy them because my eyes are old and the sights keep shrinking on me.

I do practice with both.

John

[P95Carry]

decided to buy them because my eyes are old and the sights keep shrinking on me. I belong to same club JCM! ;)

[squire]

Pax made a point about being good for snubbies... that being said how many folks here have laser sights on their snubbies? What are you thoughts on them?

[V-fib]

I’ve had the CT laser on my Sp101 for quite awhile now and would not be without it. The ability to fire from any position and the fact that you can turn them instantly on and off at will with the grip switch defeats any argument that the other person is going to be able to fire on you any easier than you could fire at them in low light situations. Actually with the laser you can cover more of yourself when in a defensive position. For example, when firing around a corner; with conventional sights you have most of your head and face exposed in order to aim down the sights. With the laser you have only your hand and one eye exposed. Another example where the laser is superior to conventional sights would be in another defensive situation where you could see through an obstruction but in order to return fire you would have to put your head up to fire over the obstruction. With the laser it’s just a matter of raising you weapon over the obstruction and having only your hand exposed, then quick target acquisition and fire while protecting the rest of your body.

I strongly recommend the “Shots in the Dark” video by Clyde Caceres for anyone with the CT or contemplating purchasing a laser for their weapon. The video presents the use of the laser in a comprehensive course. Some topics covered include myths of laser sights, speed shooting, team tactics, shooting from disadvantaged positions, use of lasers in conjunction with white light, and using the laser in law enforcement situations. It’s available from Paladin Press but you can probably do a search and get one cheaper. I got my copy direct from Crimson Trace on sale for ½ price.

:cool:

[P95Carry]

Another good perspective V-fib ........

... you make some excellent points. Thx.:)

[bubbygator]

I have CT's on my Colt Commander, Browning HP, and S&W 442... and LaserMax on my Glock-26. Besides all the positives mentioned above, they make old-eyes capable of easy SD and fun target shooting again.

CT's are better than LaserMax - IMHO. If I could, I'd buy stock in CT; they have a terrific product in both design and quality & have only scratched the surface of the gun world application for lasers.

CT has a discussion forum that answers question directly from the maker so the whole world can see - at this site (http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php).

[yzguy]

in a low light condition, your adversary will be given a perfect aim point to zero in on and kill you with

this is not true... you can not see the beam itself unless there is something for it to reflect off of (dust, smoke, mist or an actual object). And the only way to see the light emitting part without one of these things is for it to be aimed at your eye!!

and if you find yourself in a place where there is something in the air to reflect off of, you can simply not use it at all, or possibly until after your first shot (after that they will probably know where you are anyway).

one more point to remember is that you will only be activating it right before you are going to fire, you don't sit there and hold it on.

I love it on a defensive weapon. :)

[P95Carry]

Balancing all factors out ...... I am getting ever more impatient for mine to arrive ...... and test it!:)

[Guntalk]

A minor nit.

The Lasermax is not a laser grip. It replaces the guide rod on an autoloader.

It's also very high quality.

Reports from Law Enforcement are saying that there is a huge probability that the suspect or attacker will cease and desist when he sees the red laser dot on him.

Not having to shoot is always a good thing.

Good comments here. Lasers are not faster, nor are they supposed to be.

Lasers do not replace iron sights.

Lasers can be a great training tool. For curing a flinch, teaching trigger pull, showing where the muzzle is pointed, etc.

It's another tool, with limitations, and some benefits.

[yzguy]

Lasers are not faster
true, but I am faster with a laser than irons. Does this mean that I am not as fast as I can be with my irons... yes. Is this another tool that I can use to speed up my shots.... another yes... :) Do I spend a lot of time using it and not my irons, no (but you really don't have to, I do use them occasionally and even though I have much less practice with it, I am always faster with it).

in my opinion it is something that can give a shooter that does not train heavily an advantage to narrow the gap between them self and someone who does train frequently.

[Daniel Flory]

Let me be very short, consistently use a laser to hit a running animal at 20 yards and I will be converted.

[P95Carry]

Daniel ..... that's a sorta ''trick question'' :)

A laser sight will not be worth trying on a moving target - simply because it will be little use aiming with the spot on the target ...... well, you know this eh ... thus the ''challenge'' ....''n'est pas''??

That would perforce be an iron sights only shot ... to permit assessment of a suitable lead .. even if a small one.... tho at 20 yds it wil be very significant.

[Mike Irwin]

I'm not fond of lasers at all on anything other than fun guns.

[Greybeard]

Another fan here of CT grips, especially on snubbies. The DO help with quicker target acquisition (except in bright light) for those with "over 40 eyes". I've got both types on j-frames and have done timed/scored comparisons, initially personally and subsequently with several students.

Of the two offering for S&W j-frames, I much prefer the "overmoulded" option. They tame recoil, often better than the factory grips. My "zero" has remained solid despite lots of shooting of 340 - and battery life is far greater than expected.

[Bear One]

I am having trouble seeing the sights on my SA Champion, my every day carry weapon. If I wear the glasses to see the sights, I can't see the target. Last Christmas, Mrs. Bear gave me Crimson Trace Laser Grips. I love them. I still practice with out the laser, but the switch is on while carrying.

[agony]

I just received a set of CTC grips that I won from SIGforum for one of my SIG P220s.

Holy schmoley I love these things! The grips feels even better than factory, as it makes the single-stack grip even slimmer! The finger groove front strap wraparound is not as agressive as Hogue wraparounds, hence you aren't completely bound by the mandated ergonomics. Fitment is tight and secure, without any annoying seams.

As a lefty, I never paid much heed to CTC grips as they look to be discriminatory against southpaws. Not even close. I can maintain a good thumbs-forward grip without interfering with the laser's beam. The ambi switches on this particular model are genius.

I want to buy a snubbie just to have CTC grips for them!

However, one small gripe is that they don't have them for a wide spectrum of pistols...It would be great if they could make them for: Kahr steel pistols, SIG P239, SIG P226 wraparounds, and a host of others.

[yzguy]

Let me be very short, consistently use a laser to hit a running animal at 20 yards and I will be converted. Not a situation I would even consider using a laser for....

someone intending to do me harm at 7-10 feet (not running side to side, mainly coming at me) however is.... :)

[CWL]

My main concern with a laser sight on a self-defense pistol is that, a red dot in the dark is simply a red dot, is it a wall, curtain, sofa, or human? it does not tell you WHO you are aiming at as well as WHAT part of the target you are aiming at.

I do have a beef about TV/movie portrayals of red dot sights on people, there is often talk about it being an 'effective intimidator' -my question is that in times of stress and adrenaline release, both sides are goingto be focused on the threat, so how will a BG ever know that there is a red dot on his forehead or chest? BGs action will be based on "he/she has a gun!" not, do I have a laser dot on me?

I prefer white lights personally, because I want to know what I am pointing a loaded weapon at.

Lastly at true self-defensive distances, point and shoot is going to be just as effective/ineffective as aimed sighting. -Example, the recent LA lawyer shooting on TV were the nut was using a snubbie 5-shot against the lawyer. I doubt that a red dot system would have helped this nut, whereas training would have.

[Daniel Flory]

CWL raises one of my gripes. Even though you have an aiming index in the dark, how do you know what you are aiming at? If I use tritiums I have an aiming index, but unless it is combined with a flashlight, I don't really have an effective self defense tool. That is unless the BG is right on top of me, and at that point lasers/tritiums/etc. won't really matter.

yzguy- I never said the animal would have to be running laterally. Also, I'm not sure if you realize how fast someone can close 7-10'. You really won't have the time to get a proper aiming index regardless of sighting system. In fact, it is doubtful that you'll even have the time to draw. If your gun is already covering the person, then I suppose you can use whatever aiming index you like...but don't forget that when they move, your aiming index is gone if you use the laser. That is why I like sights, the index is always in the same place.

[BluesBear]

Lasers are good. But they were never intended to replace sights.
They work great WITH sights.

Unless you are at bad breath distances, you should always go for the sight picture you have trained with. If you are doing everything close to correct you will be seeing your sights AND the red dot. The red dot should be reinforcement.

Quite often, especially uring an adrenaline dump, the front sight creeps higher than it should. If you think your sight picture is good, but the dot is searching for the Big Dipper, chances are your shots will be a teensy bit high.

As for the grip mounted lasers, what else is there that you can mount on a handgun, for the money, that will assist you in hitting your target? What else is there that even MIGHT intimidate the BG into giving up?

I'm a big proponent of white light too. That's why I carry a Sure-Fire. But not on my handgun for 2 reasons. They add too much bulk and, thankfully, I have a need for a bright white light a LOT more often that I need a handgun.

[Daniel Flory]

So you sight in with the red dot right above your front sight? Does the dot stay in the exact same place on top of the front sight at all practical ranges (0-25 yards)? Also, if you're properly aligned, the dot isn't really providing you with any sort of valuable input. Concerning aiming high, that is true, but that is a question to be overcome by training. Any experienced shooter doesn't really need a laser to tell him or her that the sights are misaligned.

[444]

As with most threads, I wonder how much actual experience the naysayers have with the actual product specified.
As is usual with threads such as this, the people who actually say they own one and shoot with it, love it.
I have never even seen either item other than in magazines or on the 'net. The idea appeals to me. It seems to fill a niche role and would not detract in any way from the performance of the gun when not in use. Of course you can come up with all sorts of situations where it wouldn't be the ideal sight system, but we have extensive threads on here by people who don't feel that the use of iron sights is worthwhile.

[yzguy]

yes there are MANY circumstances when a laser will be of no use, but for those, the iron sights will still be there. But for the situations where the laser IS a help you have them. I don't think anyone is denying that there is at least 1 scenario when a laser would be beneficial, so I can't see why having the option of using it could be a bad thing.

[bubbygator]

I'd like to point out one item of laser use. When I use it, my whole visual attention is "out there" with the target/BG, not "in here" trying to get a proper sight picture.

With not having to "worry" about the sight picture, I find I can feel my trigger-pull action better. Perhaps that's not the best way to phrase it... my squeeze-through feels better coordinated to let-off at the point when my laser spot is on-target. Man, that doesn't say it exactly right either.... has anyone else noticed a better awareness or confidence of trigger-pull with lasergrips?

[pax]

My main concern with a laser sight on a self-defense pistol is that, a red dot in the dark is simply a red dot, is it a wall, curtain, sofa, or human? it does not tell you WHO you are aiming at as well as WHAT part of the target you are aiming at.
I've played with them in the dark in my bedroom at night. If your eyes are reasonably night-adjusted, the laser does provide enough light for a shoot/no shoot decision at room distance.

No, it's not as bright as a Surefire (:D), but it's enough.

pax