[trol79]

Hi, i have a little question: 9mm parabellum (FMJ?) or 12g-sotgun with birdshot; which is a better manstopper ? H ad that dicussion after watching the movie "the mechanick" .

[ArmedBear]

Shot placement is key, but after that, 9mm.

Birdshot carries very little energy in each pellet. Even heavy pheasant load doesn't penetrate very much.

A birdshot wound is nasty, like road rash is nasty. 9mm penetrates over a foot.

[Water-Man]

No contest! 9MM.

[Gunfighter123]

A lot depends on the distance to the target --- from 1 inch to three feet away , I think a round of birdshot will do more damage then a 9mm ,38spl , 45acp , etc.

[ArmedBear]

from 1 inch to three feet away , I think a round of birdshot will do more damage then a 9mm ,38spl , 45acp , etc.

More damage, perhaps, if you're talking about hours of surgery required to remove the pellets, nerve and other damage to the victim, etc. -- and assuming that the 9mm doesn't hit a vital organ and just plain kill the victim.

That doesn't make birdshot a stopper any more than pepper spray. Pain can make an attacker break off an attack, but that's not what "stopper" means.

As I've posted before, I knew someone who tried to commit suicide with birdshot from a shotgun at point-blank range. Months later, he was still in the hospital, VERY messed up, but alive.

[Leaky Waders]

Doesn't anybody on this board hunt?

Go to a dove field. Bring a 9mm and a shotgun. If you can hit one with your 9mm, how much is left to eat?

I cannot believe this boards fascination with bird shot. Are pileated woodpeckers invading? Have the chickadees revolted? Is an Alfred Hitchcock novel some reinvented taliban strategy?

I'm surprised we aren't seeing...'would you rather be shot on a cold day or a hot day threads.' ;)

[Hansli]

I'll take the birdshot every time, dead or alive your subject would be done.

[oneounceload]

AT zero point blank range - that is muzzle against flesh - take your pick....as the distance increases, the lethality of birdshot decreases.....now - there is quite a difference between #9 skeet loads and #2 lead turkey loads - that also needs to be taken into consideration.

Personally, 00 buck works better than either of the other two , IMO

[Gunfighter123]

Doesn't anybody on this board hunt?

Go to a dove field. Bring a 9mm and a shotgun. If you can hit one with your 9mm, how much is left to eat?

Take a "Dove" and place it ONE INCH from the brl. of a 9mm handgun and ONE INCH from a SG loaded with birdshot and I ask you the same question = how much is left to eat ???

That doesn't make birdshot a stopper any more than pepper spray. Pain can make an attacker break off an attack, but that's not what "stopper" means.

As I've posted before, I knew someone who tried to commit suicide with birdshot from a shotgun at point-blank range. Months later, he was still in the hospital, VERY messed up, but alive.

AB -- I did read your post about it and I am sure you read the post here on the 12 yr. old killing a 800lb. { I think} Gator with one shot from a .410 with birdshot. As to the person you knew who tried to commit suicide at PB range with birdshot --- I would have to say -- HE WAS STOPPED .

I can provide links {AMA etc. } to police/hospital reports with photos {very gory} about attempted suicides with SGs loaded with birdshot --- almost 100% of the people who did live was because they pointed/held the barrel directly under the chin and when fired , blew the jawbone/teeth , nose/nasal area , eyes and/or forehead away. I have never seen or heard of a instance where the birdshot was directed to a straight on temple or forehead/ frontal lobe angle and the person lived.

PLEASE NOTE ---- I AM NOT saying that Birdshot is the Manstopper to end all --- I AM SAYING that at ONE INCH to THREE FEET a SG loaded with birdshot will do more damage.

In over 20+ years of being both a Match Director and competitor in Action/Combat type matches , I have seen 3 people shot with .45ACPs -- one in the leg and the other two both were shot thru the palm of the hand when "racking or clearing" the pistol , I am totally sure , AT THAT DISTANCE , a round of birdshot would have done much more damage.

BTW -- as to birdshot vs. pepperspray --- you never see any PDs shooting their officiers in the face with birdshot.

We were all asked by the OP what WE THOUGHT was a better manstopper --- IMHO , I will still stand by what I posted in my first reply to them.

[RSVP2RIP]

From one inch to three feet away is pretty limiting. I'd say a garbage truck is a better manstopper if we are going to stipulate the conditions. You could probably stop someone with the wad from a blank at one inch, or hitting someone with the shotgun in the face would do it. A ton of feathers would do the same thing....I can do this all day.

[Gunfighter123]

From one inch to three feet away is pretty limiting. I'd say a garbage truck is a better manstopper if we are going to stipulate the conditions.

The OP did not have ANY distance stated --- I STATED the 1" to 3 feet and still think that at that distance the birdshot will do more damage.

Or let me put it this way --- at 1000 Yards , which is a better Manstopper , a 9mm or a SG with birdshot !!!! LOL

[ArmedBear]

I have seen 3 people shot with .45ACPs -- one in the leg and the other two both were shot thru the palm of the hand when "racking or clearing" the pistol , I am totally sure , AT THAT DISTANCE , a round of birdshot would have done much more damage.


Sure. One hole and complete pass-through penetration, vs. many holes and a mess of little lead stuck in your hand. No argument from me.

It's just not relevant to the question of which one is a stopper.

(Oh, and the next time you hear anyone with ANY knowledge of the subject advise a shot to the hand or the leg in self-defense, you let me know.:rolleyes:)

[ArmedBear]

BTW I spent some time chatting with a retired FBI agent and long-time and current High Master, who was involved in the 10mm thing years back, the development of the .40, etc, and though retired, still trains all the local cops at the academy as a firearms instructor. It was interesting. Nice guy, too. Conversation went all over the place, but I had to think of it here.

With all the work that the FBI has done on "stoppers", have they ever gone to something like a "safety slug" or other birdshot-like pistol round? NO. Never.

Why do you think that is?

[JShirley]

That's easy. Because LEO may have to shoot through harder objects like car bodies or glass. Also because they may have to take cross-body shots. All of these dictate a tougher/deeper penetrating bullet.

Now, at extremely close range, I'd take birdshot over 9x19mm, but you're talking about a typically very penetrative round vs. an extremely shallow one. Why is birdshot even in this conversation? Why aren't we comparing (at a minimum) #4 buck?

John

[Snarlingiron]

These things get so silly. You fight with what you have. If all I have is a shotgun with birdshot, I'm going to fight with it if I have to. Given a choice between a shotgun loaded with birdshot or my Glock 19 in a typical HD situation, it will be my 9mm every time. The reason is that I can't know in advance at what distance I might have to defend myself. I'm good with the 9mm from a few inches to the entire length of my house, about 60 feet.

Why is birdshot even in this conversation?

Indeed, but it always seems to find its way in, doesn't it?

[167]

I'm surprised we aren't seeing...'would you rather be shot on a cold day or a hot day threads.'

Cold day please:)

I think 9mm would be better, but I think I could make either work if I had to:evil:

[lobo9er]

armedbear comparing birdshot with pepper spray, he and I know that is not a fair comparison. I think we can all agree here if given a choice none of us would choose to defend ourselves with birdshot, RIGHT? And since the majority of us have not shot anyone and the ones who have probably didn't do it with birdshot, this is 100% opinion based. so in my opinion i'd say a face full of birdshot would stop just about anyone

I agree with snarlingiron and he is correct to say "these things get silly" but i would add still entertaining

[ArmedBear]

armedbear comparing birdshot with pepper spray, he and I know that is not a fair comparison.

No. It is fair. Both rely on disorienting pain inflicted on an attacker, for their effectiveness. That's my point. That's why I used it as a comparison.

JShirley- the only reason is that the OP asked the question.

[ArmedBear]

Also because they may have to take cross-body shots.

How do you know that everything about a defensive shot will be in your favor, any more than a LEO does?

[gyvel]

And "birdshot" is? #8? 7 1/2? 7? 6? What?

[ArmedBear]

And "birdshot" is? #8? 7 1/2? 7? 6? What?

Like someone else says, doesn't anyone here hunt?

[Gunfighter123]

(Oh, and the next time you hear anyone with ANY knowledge of the subject advise a shot to the hand or the leg in self-defense, you let me know.)

If and a BIG IF , I ever do hear of such a thing , I will.

And you make sure to let me know the next person you talk to that says " I'd rather be shot in the face with a load of birdshot then get a dose of pepper-spray in the face."

[Titan6]

Here:
Birdshot:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Perdix_perdix_%28Marek_Szczepanek%29.jpg/240px-Perdix_perdix_%28Marek_Szczepanek%29.jpg


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/11/03/arts/ab-bigbird-190/blogSmallInline.jpg

Buckshot, slugs and 9mm:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/images/Muqtada-al-Sadr.jpg

http://emm.newsexplorer.eu/NewsExplorer/photos/000/038/38783.jpg

http://blogs.phillyburbs.com/news/bcct/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2009/March/Thursday/manson.jpg

See how easy that is?

[foghornl]

Birdshot if you suddenly find yourself in a 1960's Alfred Hitchcock movie.

Otherwise, of your 2 choices..9MM

[oneounceload]

And "birdshot" is? #8? 7 1/2? 7? 6? What?
Like someone else says, doesn't anyone here hunt?

Yep, and I've used everything from #9 skeet loads to #2 for all types of bird hunting - quite a difference between a 1oz #9 skeet load and a 1-1/2 oz load of #2's.......

[snooperman]

You need penetration to do the job. That said, A large amount of birdshot could possibly stop an attacker within the confines of a home. However if one has a shotgun why would he choose something that is borderline, to say the least, when he has so many other lethal options is beyond me. I guess in this silly scenario I would rather use the 9mm because of its inherent ability to penetrate deeper into the vitals.

[autospike]

Someone asked about sizes:

[JShirley]

Since the OP asked about birdshot vs. 9mm FMJ, it seems a foolish attempt to compare less effective defensive tools.

9mm FMJ overpenetrates to over 40", IIRC. Unless you're talking about the very heaviest waterfowl loads, birdshot underpenetrates.

The question, absent the distractions, is really this: would you rather have a massive extremely shallow wound or shoot through the attacker with a very small wound?

Answer: neither. Proper expanding ammunition or rounds appropriate for self-defense should be used, in either case. Now, I don't live in Germany, and I don't know what ammunition is legal there. If one only could use birdshot, the heaviest shot available (BB or larger) should be used. If you are forced to only use FMJ in handguns, Federal makes expanding full metal jacket.

[tactikel]

Birdshot patterns spread 1" for each yard. After 2-3 yards your pattern is one pellet deep. A single pellet would barely penetrate a canvas coat, skin, 1-2 " of fat, much less a ribcage and vitals. #4 buckshot and above yes, anything under use a 9mm. You need penetration to bring down an assailant, in the entire realm of shooting, nothing penetrates less than #9 shot!

[zhyla]

Yay! Another birdshot thread!

There's way more data (police shootings, military, etc) on 9mm. I'd trust it over birdshot. But I've got birdshot in the HD gun because I want to minimize penetration. I'm not too worried about it being too weak, but I do have some 00 and slugs attached to the stock just in case..

[trol79]

Thank you, I had a discussion with a friend of me who also was watching the "mechanik" and did not understand why Dolph Lundgren has taken a doublebarreld shotgun and not the beretta in the final. we startet talking about ammonitions and ended with this two kinds.

[Gunfighter123]

Dolph Lundgren ???? I thought we were talking about Charles Bronson !!!:neener:

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Here, I'll sum up the high road.org

HURRR DURRR, NOOO DUN USE BIRDSHOOT.

IF YOUR ATTACKER HAS AN ILLNESS, BIRDSHOT WILL CURE IT AND MAKE HIM SLIGHTLY BETTER LOOKING.

EVEN .25ACP IS BETTAR THAN BIRDHSAT

HURRR DURRR DDRURR DERP DERP DERP



Basically, it's better than a pointy stick.

[Dogbite]

From this recent story, birdshot definetly can be fatal close up. Three shots and he is dead. 9mm vs birdshot--take your pick, but saying that birdshot wont stop someone across a room is nonsense.

Article is interesting in that not only is the weapon mentioned but the ammo as well. Who says birdshot isn't deadly?


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/6652958.html

Police: NW Houston homeowner fatally shoots robbery suspect

A homeowner fatally shot a suspected intruder in northwest Houston this morning, police said.

The shooting occurred around 9:30 a.m. in the 8500 block of Norton, near the intersection of Bingle and Kempwood.

Homicide Detective C. Elliott said the resident, spending his day off from work at home, returned from a grocery store errand to find things in disarray. He retrieved his shotgun and searched the home.

The resident found the intruder hiding in a closet. After a confrontation, the homeowner shot the suspect, who had a screwdriver in his possession, Elliott said. The homeowner fired three blasts of birdshot.

"It was a horrible experience, a scary experience," said Mark Brown, the homeowner. He didn't get into details about the face-off with the stranger, except to say he kept the shotgun for security but hoped he'd never have to use it.

"Thank God (the thief) didn't find it first," said Brown, who works for a local beer distributor.

Brown's neighbor across the street, 78-year-old Milton Brandt, said he wasn't aware of a burglary problem in the area but said the confrontation is a reminder that people should be ready to protect themselves.

"I would have done the same thing," Brandt said.

Elliott said the case would be referred to a grand jury without charges, as is customary in shootings that appear to be lawful. No other information was immediately available.

[167]

but saying that birdshot wont stop someone across a room is nonsense.

There are documented shooting incidents in which this is the case, so I wouldn't call it nonsense.

I wouldn't call the referenced article evidence of birdshot lethality at "across room" distances either, since the engagment distance is not mentioned.

[dacavasi]

The home invasion hero that I lit up several years ago with a #6 shot reload at about 2 feet, who lost 4 fingers and his entire lower jaw, might argue that a 9mm might have been a more mercifull load (I doubt that after it blew a finger or two off it would have had much steam left to do more damage to his palate...). When you are "up close and personal", a face full of 12 gauge, no matter the size, is plenty convincing, I would venture to say, more than a 9mm...
Just my $0.02, YMMV...

[Dogbite]

He found the burglar hiding in a closet. It was probably pretty close, probably closer than across the room. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say you would have the worst day of your life getting shot from 12' or so right down to the end of the barrel. I think I'm fairly safe with this assumption.

[Dogbite]

You should always use something like 00 buck if you can(no penetration worries), but birdshot will work close in.
Watch. http://shilohtv.com/?p=2490

[b.thomas]

I made the mistake of shooting a rooster pheasant one time at about 12 feet distance, using ounce and a eight of number 7 1/2 shot (stock pheasant).
All I did was bore a two inch hole from it's left leg to the right shoulder, all the way through the damn bird!
At close range, say less then fifteen feet I'll go with the bird shot!;)