Some Liberals Actually DO love the Second Amendment -- teach yours to love it, too


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Aristodemus
November 5, 2009, 11:14 PM
There's a group of users on dailykos.com who are out to prove that you can be liberal/progressive AND a big 2A supporter.

They're attempting to post a new diary every Tuesday. You can search for it right here (http://www.dailykos.com/search?offset=0&old_count=30&string=RKBA&type=both&sortby=time&search=Search&count=30&wayback=20160&wayfront=0) (or just go to www.dailykos.com/search (http://www.dailykos.com/search) and put RKBA in the search field "stories and diaries"). Forward this link to any liberal friends you have who don't support RKBA.

One extremely popular one was written last year and recently reposted. It's titled "Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/10/6/11474/7753)." Read it, forward it to any liberal friends you have who don't support RKBA. It is long, detailed, and hot-linked to numerous data sources. Hell, if you google it you'll find it cross-posted all over conservative and libertarian sites and blogs.

DKos has a formula to calculate "impact" for a diary. On the day "Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/10/6/11474/7753)" was posted its "impact" score was 19th out of 120 diaries that day (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/10/7/9506/39019).

Doesn't suck. It means a lot of people read it, and there were 560 separate comments. Some pie-fights, to be sure, but also some people who lean to the left who understand the issue just a little bit better.



Mod Note: Remember the sticky on posting in Activism (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270671)? For your post to remain in this thread stay focused on the topic of constructively reaching folks who identify themselves as liberal with the RKBA message. Don't wander into what a "liberal" is or isn't or whether they're good folks or evil. If you can't be positive with this idea don't post. (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270671)

If you enjoyed reading about "Some Liberals Actually DO love the Second Amendment -- teach yours to love it, too" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
LibShooter
November 6, 2009, 09:28 PM
This Liberal who loves the Second Amendment thanks you for the tip. I'm going there now.

Nematocyst
November 6, 2009, 10:04 PM
Thanks for posting this, Aristodemus.

One extremely popular one was written last year and recently reposted.
It's titled "Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/10/6/11474/7753)."I read that. Found it very well done. The argument is cogent, logical, articulate.

I'm not liberal. But neither am I conservative, libertarian, or green.

I'm apolitical. I just don't do politics. Period. I disdain politics (not statesmanship, but politics as practiced in the US today).

But I still like the article, and will encourage libs I know to read it.

I hope this thread attracts more attention. I get so freaking tired of liberal bashing on gun lists. I find it sophomoric black/white, either/or, us v them reasoning. Life is not that clear cut. One can be a liberal and still support 2A. That article, and even some of the comments appended to it, should offer evidence of that.

Nem

sherman123
November 6, 2009, 10:13 PM
+1 Nematocyst, I hear terms like "tree hugging hippy liberal" thrown around and it does nothing but hurt our cause.

Aristodemus
November 6, 2009, 11:29 PM
At [________].com I'd usually get flamed for even daring to suggest that RKBA advocates can be found left of center. Lots of nice terms like "libertard" being thrown around. Lots of vitriol. Lots of tin-foil caps.

HERE at THR folks are so much more respectful toward others -- other people's opinions, ideas, political affiliations, etc.

Just last night I found the Liberal Gun Club (http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/beliefs.html). I read the "Beliefs" (http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/beliefs.html) section and agree with most of the reasoning, disagree with some of the conclusions, but can live with the differences of opinion.

It also has links to other sites featuring the intersection of firearms ownership and left of center politics. I knew about Pink Pistols (http://www.pinkpistols.org/index2.html) -- love 'em. I was pleased to see that AHSA sent a letter to Attorney General Holder (http://www.huntersandshooters.com/node/1479) encouraging him to not attempt to renew the AWB.

Which brings me back to my point that THR is definitely the firearms site for people whose brains are engaged and who understand that we all hang together, or we all hang together, without regard to which party is indicated on our sample ballot.

So, LibShooter, Nematocyst, sherman123, thanks for the encouraging words.

And Nematocyst -- you get bonus points for your sig:

Levers, wheels, blades
... & now allured by ARs ...

Nematocyst
November 6, 2009, 11:46 PM
And Nematocyst -- you get bonus points for your sig:Can I apply those towards the purchase of an AR?

;)

Aristodemus
November 6, 2009, 11:58 PM
Almost forgot -- I wasn't sure just which forum was the most appropriate, so Moderator, if I've goofed, I won't be offended if you redirect me to a different forum.

I'm encouraging people to read and forward RKBA content that happens to come from left of center groups -- especially forwarding to any left of center friends/family/acquaintances who might be anti-RKBA and who might be more open to RKBA content that originates from sources closer to their own political coordinates. I'm not advocating any ideology except RKBA.

I'm just saying "please read, forward, and link."


Activism is about what you've done or what you propose we all do to affect change on behalf of RKBA so that others can follow your lead.

Please read, forward, and link.

While every single voice is important, Activism is about amplifying our voice so that more people hear and follow.


Please read, forward, and link.

This the place to outline action to be taken.

Please read, forward, and link.

This is not the place to use RKBA as the excuse to promote a broader social or political agenda. STAY FOCUSED!

Please read, forward, and link.

This is where we present actions we actually have carried out or action we want to carry out to make change happen.

Please read, forward, and link.

Are we cool?

hso
November 7, 2009, 12:23 AM
I saw it 4 minutes after you posted.

The thread's still open, but there has to be something more that can be done than sending it out just to individuals. Shouldn't we make sure that we push it to a wider distribution? The internet is a vast tool to reach the "print is dead" generations, but what can we do with this to reach "boomers" also? The piece is a great argument that we can use, but if we leverage it properly we can reach so many more people that need to "hear" it.

Aristodemus
November 7, 2009, 12:23 AM
Can I apply those towards the purchase of an AR?


Absolutely.

And so as to not hijack my activism thread into a hardware thread, I'll IM you a list of hardware that's certified good to go by Pat Rogers, the man who knows as much about the AR platform as anybody on the planet.

Aristodemus
November 7, 2009, 12:49 AM
hso:

I saw it 4 minutes after you posted.

The thread's still open, but there has to be something more that can be done than sending it out just to individuals. Shouldn't we make sure that we push it to a wider distribution? The internet is a vast tool to reach the "print is dead" generations, but what can we do with this to reach "boomers" also? The piece is a great argument that we can use, but if we leverage it properly we can reach so many more people that need to "hear" it.

Good point. I dig on the pure meritocracy of the internet -- where ordinary people can garner huge distribution purely on word of mouth. 30-Second Bunny Theater (http://www.angryalien.com/) (for an extreme example) has passed the one BILLION hit mark. It is now commercially sponsored, but from inception until recently it was just a lark that people would send along, und so weiter.

I'm sort of a stone knives and bear skins kind of internet guy -- before Twitter, before Facebook, before Myspace, even before Firefox, IE and Mosaic . . . we got by with usenet, ftp and that gopher thing I could never get to work properly.

That’s not to say that new media technologies can’t increase leverage – your point is made just by examining the increase in the curviness of the curve (vague memories of differential calculus) from those ancient technologies available only to .gov and .edu, to, e.g., Twitter, so that you can, if you want, now let the entire world know what you had for breakfast. ;-)

For further analysis I'm gonna have to ask my 9-year old niece how she stays connected to the world . . .

Nematocyst
November 7, 2009, 12:52 AM
Shouldn't we make sure that we push it to a wider distribution? Yes.
The internet is a vast tool to reach the "print is dead" generations,
but what can we do with this to reach "boomers" also?But print is (mostly) dead (or at least dying, at least for now...)

If the boomers want to keep up, they should go digital like the rest of us did. :rolleyes:

(Hey, I was born in '50, but I started with DOS and never turned back.)

For those that didn't, I'd recommend a bunch of 1/8 page fliers
with some appropriate images (levers, wheels, blades ...),
about 9 words (*), and links to relevant pages.

* Give up your guns, give your freedom to tyrants.
* Guns in the US kill fewer people than cars.
* Want fresh meat on your table? Buy a gun.

jfh
November 7, 2009, 08:46 AM
to specific "forums" where the RKBA is a topic.

For those of us who do this--i.e., cruise the 'net looking for discussion into which to place RKBA / pro-individual viewpoints--there's a couple of needs.

1. A list of forums / sites / where these discussions can take place. This list would not be, for example, as generic as "The New York Times, but might well include a link to their "Gun Control" page. (Which is woefully un-updated, and provides no discussion format--but it's a marker we should have). A better marker would be into their Daily Lede Blog, I suspect.

2. An ever-expanding list of the topics-du-jour. That is, a basic take on the current talking points. (For example, while I haven't looked for it yet, there is no doubt that "semiautomatic assault weapons" will come up again w/r/t the Fort Hood mess.)

A topic / post that is updated regularly would be of great help, IMO.

Jim H.

bdickens
November 7, 2009, 08:58 AM
Real liberals could do nothing but support the Second Amendment.

SuperNaut
November 7, 2009, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the link Aristodemus. I recall reading that earlier this year, but it is good to know that there is some will behind it. I'll keep checking in in Tuesdays to see where it goes. Just a word of warning, look into the AHSA with a skeptical eye - they are not what they portray themselves to be.

I have found THR (1&2) to be made up of people who sport a great variety of political views. Where most of us come together is in support of the 2A. I'm glad to see this in the Activism forum, this is where the rubber meets the road.

hso
November 7, 2009, 09:54 AM
Folks, I'm going to put my mean old mod hat on and ask that we keep the thread focused on the plan requirements and not drift or hyjack. I would hate chattiness to push this out of Activism and into Activism Discussion.

Astrodemus has identified an outstanding tool and a good plan to reach an important segment of society that needs to be reached by "our truth" instead of "their propaganda". We may expand on the plan or refine the plan a bit, but let's stay with working the plan and avoid the tendency to dilute the effort with side chatter since this is such a good idea.

If you want to toss your two cents in outside the narrow scope of this particular discussion, open your own in AD.

Nematocyst
November 7, 2009, 03:20 PM
Astrodemus has identified an outstanding tool and a good plan to reach an important segment of society that needs to be reached by "our truth" instead of "their propaganda". We may expand on the plan or refine the plan a bit, but let's stay with working the plan and avoid the tendency to dilute the effort with side chatter since this is such a good idea.My Friday night, let-the-hard-week-go jive talk not-withstanding <ahem>, I very much agree. This ball is too important to drop it.

A request: could someone - you or Aristodemus, probably - clearly explicate "the plan".

I'm sure there's a good one in here, but a quick reread this afternoon before lunch doesn't tell me exactly what the plan is other than to expose more folks to the resources offered above by forwarding.

I suspect you're talking about more to the plan than that, right?

Or is that what we're brainstorming here: what that plan is, exactly.

(BTW: I'm going to send a link to this thread to a couple of personal friends/colleagues, one of whom is already a member (though an infrequent visitor these days) and one of whom isn't yet but is considering it. Between the three of us, we know a bunch of folks that need to read that angry mouse essay.)

Walkalong
November 7, 2009, 09:00 PM
Real liberals could do nothing but support the Second Amendment. They really should. Unfortunately, many don't. We need to work on that. Of course the Socialists will never believe in people owning guns because they believe in government running our lives, and those two things don't go together well. I wish the Liberals would take the Democratic party back over.

There's a group of users on dailykos.com who are out to prove that you can be liberal/progressive AND a big 2A supporter.
I wish them all the luck in the world.

Nematocyst
November 7, 2009, 11:13 PM
A request: could someone - you or Aristodemus, probably - clearly explicate "the plan".

I'm sure there's a good one in here, but a quick reread this afternoon before lunch doesn't tell me exactly what the plan is other than to expose more folks to the resources offered above by forwarding.Well, duh (*), ok, i just read more carefully, especially Jim's post 12.

... there's a couple of needs.

1. A list of forums / sites / where these discussions can take place. This list would not be, for example, as generic as "The New York Times, but might well include a link to their "Gun Control" page. (Which is woefully un-updated, and provides no discussion format--but it's a marker we should have). A better marker would be into their Daily Lede Blog, I suspect.

2. An ever-expanding list of the topics-du-jour. That is, a basic take on the current talking points. (For example, while I haven't looked for it yet, there is no doubt that "semiautomatic assault weapons" will come up again w/r/t the Fort Hood mess.)

A topic / post that is updated regularly would be of great help, IMO.

Yeah; makes sense.

I know there's more in here to parse, too; hopefully tomorrow I'll have time to read it ... at work tonight.

(* Excuse: my earlier post wuz before breakfast.)

okespe04
November 8, 2009, 10:42 AM
Lots of gun toting liberals here in Oregon. I used to be one of them but have started leaning more to the right for the last few years.

Nematocyst
November 8, 2009, 03:12 PM
<gentle reminder> OK, folks, like Hso suggested, let's keep this thread on topic.

This isn't a place to discuss what liberals are or are not, to distinguish them as a category from conservatives, libertarians, etc.

This thread is about extending arguments and resources about RKBA and guns to anyone who is a partial anti, or at least a fence sitter when it comes to guns, regardless of their political persuasion.

Let's not risk closing this thread with conversations about what "liberal" means.
We can talk about action here while being vague about what "liberal" means, exactly.

SuperNaut
November 8, 2009, 04:32 PM
The most persuasive method I have found to spread the RKBA message to my liberal anti-friends is just being myself. I'm not your traditional gun enthusiast and I'm not secretive about my guns or their use. I try to keep it as above-board, de-mystified, and as normal as I can. Just to show by example that the stereotype painted by the anti-gun minority in the US is utterly wrong.

IRL I also refrain from trying to actively "convert" anyone. I make it clear that a trip to the range is a standing open invite, but I never preach, or push, or berate. During gun-related arguments I do my level best to stick to the facts and if it gets heated, I will usually just shut up and let the other side have their say. IMO once you resort to emotional arguments you are playing the anti's game, one that they know well enough to win.

Nematocyst
November 8, 2009, 06:34 PM
I try to keep it as above-board, de-mystified, and as normal as I can.So, you don't exhibit this kind of behavior (http://i.greatbeyond.com/blog/2009/01/19/militia-fail.jpg)? :)

I agree with your strategy, SN. I do the same around my friends and acquaintances, and increasingly even around clients. I rarely bring up guns myself in conversation (outside of my normal gun friends), but if the topic comes up, I'll freely discuss it, and name myself as a gun owner since I was 9.

If they ask what kinds of guns I own, I tell them the same as my sig line says, with a bit more reservation about the AR, but I'm not bashful of it.

I've only had one good liberal friend and colleague react negatively - and in his case, extremely negatively, in a totally irrational, won't even listen to reason.

And it's people like him that I'm most interested in learning more from this thread about how to ... nudge him towards rationality.

Walkalong
November 8, 2009, 07:48 PM
I agree with your strategySo do I. Above board, no apologies, never argue, always ready to teach or take shooting.

When asked if I have any "assault rifles" I tell them I have a couple of semi auto lookalikes, and that they are fun to shoot.

ants
November 8, 2009, 08:00 PM
I agree with all the positive comments on this thread. Walkalong and SuperNaut say it nicely. Take people out shooting, they'll have fun!



Funny thing. Shooting is not a political act. It's fun. It's challenging. It's competitive. It saves lives. It's right.

Shooting only becomes political when people on either side make it political. And that's bad for everyone on both sides. Once an activity becomes a political football, everyone loses.

Shooting sports and gun ownership are not political unless you are dead determined to make it so. Then we all lose.

Shadan7
November 8, 2009, 08:59 PM
Thanks to Aristodemus and all the others - I'm part of that dKos group, and have been fighting the good fight for RKBA there for 5+ years. There has been significant progress, I am happy to say. :evil:

In addition, I also try and take my liberal friends shooting, showing them that it is fun as well as practical. It makes more converts than all my internet discussions ever could, and I heartily recommend it to those who may know someone of a liberal bent.

Cheers!


Jim D.

ants
November 8, 2009, 10:51 PM
In my state we have a committee of shooters with one goal: Introduce shooting to politicians, especially those who lean the other way because they've never been part of it before.

If you want to form a committee, first recruit community leaders who are already shooters. This goes a long way to attracting non-shooting politicians, who are more likely to see them as peers and agree to participate.

Take your guests to a safe and clean range, take hand cleaner and clean towels with you. Review the safety rules, take the NRA safe shooting pamphlets with you. Insist on safety.

After the fun, clean up and buy them lunch. You don't have to be a hard salesman. Don't lecture them. Just let them shoot safely and responsibly. They will learn from your example.

okespe04
November 8, 2009, 11:53 PM
I took a liberal to buy his first shotgun the other day then took him shooting. I even gave him a couple of 00 buck loads to take home with him. He is now saving up for a revolver. Thank you very much.

Babarsac
November 9, 2009, 07:49 AM
I also consider myself in the ranks of gun-toting liberals, and soon to be a suppressor-toting liberal. I've taken quite a few friends and co-workers to the range and have one looking to take a CCW class with me. I'm very happy with the tone and information available on this forum and am glad to contribute.

P.S. What's really funny is when NOVA drivers pull up behind me and see my Coexist sticker next to my NRA sticker their heads pop :D

Aristodemus
November 10, 2009, 02:35 AM
A request: could someone - you or Aristodemus, probably - clearly explicate "the plan".

I'm sure there's a good one in here, but a quick reread this afternoon before lunch doesn't tell me exactly what the plan is other than to expose more folks to the resources offered above by forwarding.

I suspect you're talking about more to the plan than that, right?

Or is that what we're brainstorming here: what that plan is, exactly.

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af333/quijibo_album/DARKKNIGHTGUYWITHAPLAN.jpg

Pink Pistols has an excellent plan for activism in the physical world titled "Breaking Barriers and Building Bridges" (http://www.pinkpistols.org/breaking_barriers.html)

Take a look at the page; it provides in part:



Socially, the pink and shooting communities are both quite similar. Both are often insular and can be closeted, and both have a stereotypical preconceptions about what the other is like. Members of either group can feel threatened by a representative of the other group. Because you belong to two groups which are supposed to oppose each other, people are forced to question their preconceptions about whether shooters and pink people should be adversarial and why. Their confusion creates curiosity and gives you a chance to step in and explain your views, potentially building relationships. (http://www.pinkpistols.org/breaking_barriers.html)
That's consistent with my personal experience. The local chapter organizer would suggest a date/time for a group shoot, and we'd go shoot. Some of the folks who showed up were gay, some were straight, some were experienced with firearms, some were novices. Everybody was cool.

There are already intersections in the virtual world as well.

Oleg Volk (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=323520) and Pink Pistols have worked together. To a libertarian these things already go together like peanut butter and jelly. To the rest of the political spectrum, however, this coexistence is not intuitive, hence the comment that “both are often insular and can be closeted, and both have a stereotypical preconceptions about what the other is like.”

I think approaches for both virtual and physical outreach are worthwhile. I live in the Northwest. Pretty easy for me to contact the PP chapters in Portland, Tacoma and Seattle and, say, see if we can muster enough people to get a group rate on some classes with Firearms Academy of Seattle (which is actually in Centralia, roughly half-way between Portland and Seattle). If I had any friends who were RKBA-friendly but not GBLT-friendly . . . I'm not saying you have to tell any invitees all the details of what they're getting into.

Their FAQ (PP, not FAS) discusses their political neutrality and how they interact with the world of politics (http://www.pinkpistols.org/faq.html).

The aforementioned links on The Liberal Gun Club (http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/wordpress/) are a logical step in the virtual direction. Let’s say, counting LGC, there’s five other groups they link to. If I contact one and five other people each contact one . . . .

Somebody savvy with the social networking products should initiate contact, establish areas of mutual agreement, and "make friends" or W(ever)TF you call it. Voila! Via six degrees of separation, you can potentially reach the entire work (or at least that portion of the world that speaks English and has internet access).

If there are enough members of such groups in a geographic location, organize a group shoot. Few people are going to agree to meet over beers just to scream at each other about diametrically opposed political views. But more people would probably be interested in an activity – like a day at the range.

Then, if I take my tips from South Park appropriately, you add to the invitation that the event will feature punch and pie. More people show up if there’s punch and pie.

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af333/quijibo_album/SOUTHPRK-0.jpg

Is plan, no?

Only remaining issue is whether these discussions should stay here or, at the Mod's discretion, move over to Activism Discussion.

MrPeter
November 10, 2009, 12:00 PM
I just had to say I read this article and am very impressed. Since about 99% (not 100% because I'm sure there's someone I'm forgetting) of my friends and co-workers are slightly to very left leaning (I fall in there somewhere too) I posted it on facebook and urged everyone I know to take a few minutes and read it.

barnetmill
November 10, 2009, 12:35 PM
I quickly read the article. It appears to be somewhat factual and suggests strongly that the point of the 2nd A is for military defense of the nation. It would be a better article if it covered also the recent arguements presented to SCOTUS in the DC case. I am not sure if this is the best arguement to present to liberals. But it is certainly a good start. But how to spead the message? You have true liberals that are interested in the truth and others (libertards) that do not want to be confused by facts. The place to start is likely locally in the democratic party by activism and not just sending emails. Let everyone know that democratic liberal does not have to equal antigun. When there is more time that is what I plan to do. Many top people privately in the repubican party are not necessarily progun either.

PS I like the nematocyst signature, maybe I will change mine to cnidarian

Pileatus
November 10, 2009, 02:02 PM
I am a left leaner myself, and I love shooting and the Second Amendment! Thanks very much for finding this site; a lot of people assume that I and all others who are left of center hate guns and want to disarm the country. Quite to the contrary! As has been said before on this thread, true liberalism is much more in line with gun ownership than it is with gun control, at least in terms of political philosophy. Plus, shooting only gets political when either side makes it into a political shouting match. Blasting a clay pigeon has never been about politics for me, it's about having fun!

Edited to add...this is the reason I like THR better than any other gun site...imagine, actual civil discourse regarding a potentially-controversial issue, on an online firearms forum? Impossible!!!

malix
November 10, 2009, 03:28 PM
I hear terms like "tree hugging hippy liberal" thrown around and it does nothing but hurt our cause.

I agree.

Nematocyst
November 10, 2009, 03:43 PM
...I do not know what a pink community is. I can only guess.Hint: think gay shooters (http://pinkpistols.org/).

But, admittedly, this site (http://www.pinkbrowser.com/forum/) comes up first on a goog search of "pink community".
Somehow, I think that's not what Aristodemus had in mind ...

hso
November 11, 2009, 07:49 AM
Folks,

Once more, try to stay on topic. This thread started out in Activism and a number of posts were pruned trying to keep it focused on how to reach self identified liberals with a particular RKBA argument. Now it's in Activism Discussion, but that doesn't give license to call names, point fingers or shoot off in any direction the word "liberal" causes you to skyrocket. If your posts have been pruned please reread the requirements for posting in the forum. Pay attention to the clearly stated part that negativism isn't going to be tolerated. Come up with ways to improve the original plan, expand upon it or even develop alternate plans, but stay focused on the original intent of reaching folks who identify themselves as "liberals" and gaining their support for RKBA. If you can't do that then don't post in this thread.

skwab
November 11, 2009, 10:22 AM
Here in Texas, many liberals are also shooters. The congress member from our district is a moderate dem who is very pro 2A. - it's hard to get elected in Texas if you're not - but I thought the article was a good one and raised some good points. But I think the best course of action, like others have said, is to invite naysayers to shoot. If they're open minded enough to go, then they are open minded enough to reconsider their position - if not, then don't waste your time because they will never attempt to learn the other argument.

But I remember when I first took my wife shooting - not that she was anti she just never grew up around guns and was afraid of them. Most of us started out early, so I don't recall those emotions the first time I went shooting, but to see her excitement was a lot of fun. Most Antis I have come across have never fired a gun - they are afraid, they have no understanding of a firearm - so to give someone that opportunity and to experience their first shots is a lot of fun.

Aristodemus
November 11, 2009, 10:22 PM
Cheers to all who've read and forwarded.

It would be a better article if it covered also the recent arguements [sic] presented to SCOTUS in the DC case.

The diary was written last year (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/21/496931/-Why-Liberals-Should-Love-The-Second-Amendment), roughly two months before the Heller opinion (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf). The diary was reposted last month.

Notably, its reasoning WRT an individual rights interpretation closely tracks the reasoning in the Heller majority opinion. But Heller left open sooo many issues, e.g., incorporation, and, oh yeah, *** does "reasonable" mean?

Which is why the diary is that much more important.

The diary points out – to a group of people who self-identify with the terms "liberal" or "progressive" – that they tend to vociferously resist any infringement of the First, the Fourth, the Fifth, the Sixth, and the Eighth Amendments, no matter how "reasonable" the proponents of restrictions claim them to be.

And that such people should therefore be just as suspicious of and just as resistant to whatever somebody proposes as a "reasonable" restriction on the Second.

Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/6/790213/-RKBA:-Why-Liberals-Should-Love-the-Second-Amendment) states:

We oppose restrictions to our civil liberties. All of our rights, even the ones enumerated in the Bill of Rights, are restricted. You can't shout "Fire!" in a crowd. You can't threaten to kill the president. You can't publish someone else's words as your own. We have copyright laws and libel laws and slander laws. We have the FCC to regulate our radio and television content. We have plenty of restrictions on our First Amendment rights.

But we don't like them. We fight them. Any card-carrying member of the ACLU will tell you that while we might agree that some restrictions are reasonable, we keep a close eye whenever anyone in government gets an itch to pass a new law that restricts our First Amendment rights. Or our Fourth. Or our Fifth, Sixth, or Eighth.

We complain about free speech zones. The whole country is supposed to be a free speech zone, after all. It says so right in the First Amendment.

But when it comes to the Second Amendment...You could hear a pin drop for all the protest you'll get from liberals when politicians talk about further restrictions on the manufacture, sale, or possession of firearms.

Suddenly, overly broad restrictions are "reasonable." The Washington D.C. ban on handguns -- all handguns -- is reasonable. (Later this year, the Supreme Court will quite likely issue an opinion to the contrary in the Heller case.)

Notably, the ACLU has stated that it "disagrees" with the Heller opinion (http://www.aclu.org/2008/07/01/heller-decision-and-the-second-amendment/) and suggests that it won't exactly be jumping at every opportunity to oppose the "reasonableness" of a proposed restriction. And it has taken a LOT of heat from many of its members. Maybe more of its members -- people who quite possibly aren't firearms owners -- would be critical of such position if they see the issue of the Second framed in a manner consistent with the ACLU’s positions on the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth. In other words, to direct the ACLU, regardless of whether it "agrees" with Heller's holding, to fight against every attempted "reasonable" restriction of the Second.

Look at the pleadings in Heller II (because it's in the District, the issue of incorporation is not addressed) -- the issues primarily address the "reasonableness" of the new and improved laws D.C. enacted after remand of Heller:

Heller v. D.C. II, Second Amended Complaint (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/lawsuits/Second%20Amended%20Complaint%20Heller-DC.pdf)

Memorandum Of Points And Authorities In Support Of Plaintiffs’ Motion For Summary Judgment (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/lawsuits/Mem%20Heller%20Sum%20Jud.pdf)

Plaintiffs’ Opposition To Defendants’ Motion For Summary Judgment (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/lawsuits/Opp_to_DC_Motion.pdf)

Heller v. D.C. II, Reply Memorandum To Defendants’ Opposition To Plaintiff’s Motion For Summary Judgment (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/lawsuits/Reply_to_DC_Opposition.pdf)

The diary calls out on the carpet people who oppose what government proponents claim are "reasonable" restrictions on the rights enumerated in the First, the Fourth, the Fifth, the Sixth, and the Eighth Amendments, and challenges those people to oppose with equal vigor what government proponents claim are "reasonable" restrictions on the Second.

Staunch defenders of the First Amendment will explain that they will fight for the rights of people to express political speech even if the content of the speech is repugnant to the defenders themselves or even the public in general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie). Don't like guns? Fine. Don't want them in your house? Fine. Don't like the idea of private ownership of weapons that look scary? Fine. The diary is a call to support the exercise of a right -- with as few restrictions as possible -- even if you personally don't like the right. (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/6/790213/-RKBA:-Why-Liberals-Should-Love-the-Second-Amendment)

I am not sure if this is the best arguement [sic] to present to liberals.

I will happily make the time to read any argument you can find that you think would be more persuasive with an audience who expressly self-identify as being on the left.

But it is certainly a good start.

I agree; it is a good place to start.

But how to spead [sic] the message? You have true liberals that are interested in the truth and others (libertards)

NB: the Mod’s rules about pejoratives.

that do not want to be confused by facts. The place to start is likely locally in the democratic party by activism and not just sending emails.

I am in no way saying that local action isn’t essential. It is.

Standing on a soap box allows your voice to reach that many more people. Movable type that many more, broadcasting via old-style wireless (whatever bandwidths are licensed for radio and television), yet more.

But the internet has proven to be the great equalizer -- merit rules. That which is liked is further distributed. That which is not, is not.

30-Second Bunny Theater has passed one BILLION views. (http://www.angryalien.com/)

The Best Page in the Universe (http://maddox.xmission.com/) has recorded millions of page views.

Admittedly, those are entertainment.

Then consider this: On September 19, 2009 a young woman with a web-cam posted a highly political video-blog entry titled The Origin of Stupidity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmHN3JtyUXg). I just checked, today, November 11, 2009, and it has had over one MILLION views. Please note, The Origin of Stupidity is highly critical of Ray Comfort, so if you're inclined to agree with Mr. Comfort be warned that you might find the video offensive.

Two months. One million page views. Impressive.

SaMx
November 13, 2009, 09:24 PM
I've read the Daily Kos diary before, but this is the first time I've seen http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/wordpress/

I've thought that kind of organization is really what's needed IMO. Left leaning gun rights activists have a chance to reach a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't be very receptive, including politicians, and a place like that is a great way to organize.

KingMedicine
November 15, 2009, 02:38 AM
I call myself an Idaho liberal. Where in idaho, i am pretty far to the left. But if i were in Cali, i would be concidered quite conservitive.

unloved
November 15, 2009, 11:02 AM
I've read the Daily Kos diary before, but this is the first time I've seen http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/wordpress/

I've thought that kind of organization is really what's needed IMO. Left leaning gun rights activists have a chance to reach a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't be very receptive, including politicians, and a place like that is a great way to organize.

If only there wasn't a link to the AHSA on that page...

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