Ruger mini 14 vs AR15 accuracy challenge. Calling all Ruger Mini14 shooters


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R.W.Dale
November 7, 2009, 04:41 AM
I put this out there in the other thread and I'm sure it'll get lost so I'm making a topic that can be searched and posted to as need be.

This is an open challenge to all ruger mini 14 owners and there's even a prize.

Now I'll openly admit that this thread is serving a as "put your money where your mouth is" action toward the Ruger Mini crowd. But for the first person to meet the below challenge using a ruger Mini14 I'll apologize for my anti mini comments and at my expense send the winner 2 boxes (40rds) of Monarch .223 ammo or equivalent $$


Here's what you must do

Using Iron sights from the bench
shoot two targets at 100yds
both groups will be 5 shots
all 10 rds must be fired within 3 minutes
the average group size for the two must be under 2.5"
both "targets" must be the same and have AR15 vs Mini14 hand written on them
post pics of the targets together


now AR15 or even .223 AK owners

I want you to show that this can be done. Sorry no prize:( other than the honor of it all

match expires 2-1-10


EDIT, ADDENDUM, CLARIFICATION and other fine print legalese
Any shooting position is fine even though benched is specified. If you can take this challenge in a field shooting position more power to ya. But when shooting from the bench I want an actual person shooting the gun, no solid gun vises or rifle fixtures

The prize of 40rds of ammo is is only to be extended to the first person to submit a target with a mini14 that falls within the outline above

official group sizes will be determined using OnTarget software.
http://www.6mmbr.com/ontargetsoftware.html


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/rugermini.jpg

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sticks
November 7, 2009, 01:49 PM
A link to your challenge has been posted on the PerfectUnion forum.

:D

frankiestoys
November 7, 2009, 03:08 PM
I like your challenge , ( i could use the ammo,) Ill be heading to the range in a few weeks with my mini. I have another new rifle to try out as well. My mini is a 580 series with a trigger job and a accu-strut installed i'll remove the scope im pretty sure the mini can do it i just hope my eyes can.:D

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 7, 2009, 03:19 PM
I think you should expand the challenge to include scoped rifles. No reason to add an unduly large element of potential for human error when what we're trying to test here is RIFLES, not humans.

R.W.Dale
November 7, 2009, 04:50 PM
I think you should expand the challenge to include scoped rifles. No reason to add an unduly large element of potential for human error when what we're trying to test here is RIFLES, not humans.

If you want to add to the pot I'll be more than happy to expand the challange. Remember I'm footing the bill here


A link to your challenge has been posted on the PerfectUnion forum.

:D

back link ;)

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=74127

One thing Id really apperciate is the posting of any targets thed don't make the cut. That way at the very least folks begin to get an idea of what these rifles may or may not be able to do

OrangePwrx9
November 7, 2009, 05:05 PM
I think the AR15 owners who post showing that this can be done, should report the number of jams, malfunctions and broken parts that occurred in the course of trying to shoot two targets that they could post. Oh, and the number of quarts of oil used. :D

Let's make this thing relevant both ways :evil:

carbine85
November 7, 2009, 05:10 PM
I think you just gave away a couple of boxes of ammo.
Should be fun to see what happens.

frankiestoys
November 7, 2009, 05:51 PM
If you want to add to the pot I'll be more than happy to expand the challange. Remember I'm footing the bill here




back link ;)

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=74127

One thing Id really apperciate is the posting of any targets thed don't make the cut. That way at the very least folks begin to get an idea of what these rifles may or may not be able to do

So let me get this sraight i can leave my scope on ?:evil:

R.W.Dale
November 7, 2009, 07:23 PM
So let me get this sraight i can leave my scope on ?:evil:


Irons only for my match and prize, if there's going to be a scoped category someone else will have to donate a prize

General Geoff
November 7, 2009, 07:25 PM
You said iron sights from the bench; is prone position allowed? I don't have a mini but I know someone who does, and I'm tempted to see what I can do; I'm better prone than from a bench.

R.W.Dale
November 7, 2009, 07:49 PM
Prone is fine by me

MistWolf
November 7, 2009, 07:53 PM
Is this for the first shooter to meet your criteria, all that do or the one who shoots the smallest group? Is this for group size only, or best score? If best score, using what target?

Just asking for clarification. Thanks

Girodin
November 7, 2009, 07:58 PM
I'm interested to see the targets start coming in. Iron sights will be a big limiter for many people irrespective of the rifle they are using.

General Geoff
November 7, 2009, 08:06 PM
A sling and proper hold go a long way towards repeatable groups with iron sights. You don't have to see the holes in the paper, you just have to have natural point of aim.

R.W.Dale
November 7, 2009, 08:08 PM
Is this for the first shooter to meet your criteria, all that do or the one who shoots the smallest group? Is this for group size only, or best score? If best score, using what target?

Just asking for clarification. Thanks

GOOD POINT

the prize is only for the first person to submit a target that makes it under the 2.5" floor

Again this a first 2.5" for the mini guys, we get more targets we can certianly have a match, but again the prize us only for the first sub 2.5" submission

MetalHead
November 7, 2009, 09:41 PM
This has me wanting to shoot my Mini for the first time in over ten years, too bad my daylight hours are spent harvesting corn now. Course with the fame of a good grouping I could trade it for something I really want like a Saiga 308. ;)

highorder
November 7, 2009, 10:39 PM
I'm about to pull the Aimpoint off my middy AR to add a scope... I think I'll throw my hat into the ring. Tomorrow looks like a good day to shoot!

jonc
November 8, 2009, 04:42 AM
just wondering if you are allowing the mini target rifles in the match, i didnt see any mention of them

R.W.Dale
November 8, 2009, 11:19 AM
just wondering if you are allowing the mini target rifles in the match, i didnt see any mention of them



Iron sights are REQUIRED

rbernie
November 8, 2009, 05:09 PM
Heh.

Today at the range, I sighted in my Mini14 with it's new Ultimak rail and Aimpoint 9000SC. Interestingly, four-shots-in-ten-seconds groups were hovering solidly under 3" at 100 yards using ADCOM 55gr fodder.

It doesn't 'win the challenge', but it's interesting to note nevertheless...

wcoats
November 9, 2009, 01:31 AM
Well, I don't have anything in .223 yet, so I can't attempt it. But why hasn't anyone posted any pics of a target yet? I think people should post pics of their attempts. I'm very interested to see how this thread turns out.

HuntAndFish
November 10, 2009, 01:21 AM
Well, I think part of the reason we haven't seen any targets yet is because this was posted early on a Sunday. I'd like to try it with my Mini as well but the first chance I'll have to get to the range during daylight hours is Saturday. I'll have to take off the red dot and see if I still have the irons on there.

gunnutery
November 10, 2009, 06:09 AM
I thought someone would've posted by now. I want to but have not the time. Thanksgiving will be the soonest for me.

dom1104
November 10, 2009, 08:26 AM
A quick search for "Mini 14 Accuracy" brings up this bad boy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VzVThmHw0

I think the way Mini 14 owners roll is to wear a Tshirt on their head while they are sighting in their sweet rifles.


Mini 14 owners...... have a fashion sense all their own.

:evil::evil::evil:

Walkalong
November 10, 2009, 09:06 AM
Using Iron sightsYou have something against old timers? :scrutiny:....... :D

benEzra
November 10, 2009, 09:08 AM
Here's the best 100-yard group my 188-series Ranch Rifle ever shot in the 16 years I owned it, with or without optics, with or without premium ammunition, from a front rest and rear bag, cool barrel, windless day:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49644&stc=1&d=1166703910

Yeah, that's why I sold it. The ironic thing is that it shot just as badly with Winchester Premium Match 69gr and high-end Remington and Winchester 55gr as it did with Winchester white box.

HarleyFixer
November 10, 2009, 01:26 PM
Here is a link to what my Mini-14 is capable of. Unfortunately I cannot shoot iron sight accurately anymore.
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67948

frankiestoys
November 10, 2009, 05:50 PM
Harleyfixer
I made my own accu-strut as well , with almost identical results.
I wish i had younger eyes too :(

HuntAndFish
November 10, 2009, 09:17 PM
I think I'll take an iron sighted AR and the bolt CZ in .223 with me too and make a morning of it. By the way, are we talking only stock Minis for the prize?

EvanWilliams
November 10, 2009, 09:44 PM
I would have no trouble putting 5 shots in 2.5 with my mini-14 using WWB 45gr JHP, if I do my job. However, that is the ONLY load I have ever shot that would perform well in my gun.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 10, 2009, 09:49 PM
If you want to add to the pot I'll be more than happy to expand the challange. Remember I'm footing the bill here

You misunderstand me - I'm not suggesting you should *expand* the challenge. I'm suggesting you should *change* the challenge. :)

bluemalibu
November 10, 2009, 10:42 PM
I am interested in seeing how this plays out....

I spent months and $$$$ on modifications of my mini including all flavors of bedding, custom carbon stocks, floating, and on and on...

That piece of scrap-iron couldn't hold to a 4 1/2" circle at 50m to save itself.

cameron.personal
November 10, 2009, 11:55 PM
Wow! I had no idea that Mini 14s where so inaccurate. I suppose I am spoiled with AR15s that are consistently sub HALF MOA.

I suppose 3-5MOA for a ranch rifle isn't too bad. Most AKs are just as bad.

It is amazing that Mini 14/30 owners even bother with accuracy test, with all of the derision and ridicule that it causes them.:banghead:

Cameron

cameron.personal
November 11, 2009, 12:01 AM
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
I think you should expand the challenge to include scoped rifles. No reason to add an unduly large element of potential for human error when what we're trying to test here is RIFLES, not humans.
Oh that would be just plain mean. :D
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/AR15DDSPRL.jpg

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/DanielDefenseTarget0711.jpg

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/DanielDefenseTarget2.jpg

Avenger29
November 11, 2009, 12:12 AM
I think I'll take an iron sighted AR and the bolt CZ in .223 with me too and make a morning of it. By the way, are we talking only stock Minis for the prize?

The man said

Using Iron sights from the bench
shoot two targets at 100yds
both groups will be 5 shots
all 10 rds must be fired within 3 minutes
the average group size for the two must be under 2.5"
both "targets" must be the same and have AR15 vs Mini14 hand written on them
post pics of the targets together

I don't see anything in there about using or not using a modified Mini 14, just so long as you were shooting with irons from the bench and the groups fit. He didn't say factory irons, he didn't say standard Mini 14.

R.W.Dale
November 11, 2009, 12:35 AM
No I'm not going to disallow modified rifles. This match is mini vs ar and let's face it, what's a stock ar15?


If it takes a heavily modified mini to claim this prize what does this say for the MINI?

Please submit targets though mini or not so we can show that this can be done

carbine85
November 11, 2009, 11:06 AM
Here's the best 100-yard group my 188-series Ranch Rifle ever shot in the 16 years I owned it, with or without optics, with or without premium ammunition, from a front rest and rear bag, cool barrel, windless day:
No offense, but that's not the gun that's the shooter unless the rifle is moving around in the stock.

cyclopsshooter
November 11, 2009, 11:15 AM
what about mini users that have a bull barrel and 500 bucks worth of accurizing add ons... they are in the AR price range- you should stipulate factory rifles only

oh, nevermind, didnt notice page 2 comments

Welding Rod
November 11, 2009, 01:04 PM
Hmm. Great idea. I wish I could play. Unfortunately I sold my 580 Mini already. I am pretty sure it would meet your challenge. My only reservation is the 3 minute limit limit.

I only normally shoot 5 round groups, with about 8 seconds between shots on average. But I normally allow a barrel to cool between groups. I am confident it would easily shoot sub 2.5" for one 5 shot group using inexensive Federal bulk pack 50 grain JHP... not sure about 2 groups in a row within a 3 minute window.

I am interested to see some targets come in.

dom1104
November 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
Listen to the mini owners lol

"Well, it could but not within 3 minutes, I need to let it cool down"

"Are we allowing rods bolted down and clamped and welded and ..."

"Thats the shooter and not the gun"

yeesh.

Welding Rod
November 11, 2009, 03:05 PM
DOM is you are going to quote and expect to not discredit yourself, you should do so accurately - without exageration or embelishment.

First I am not a Mini owner. I clearly mentioned I sold the gun.

Second, I did not say "Well, it could but not within 3 minutes, I need to let it cool down". You can see what I said, it is directly above your post. It is not what you put in quotes.

I am not an owner trying to somehow defend the Mini. I am a former owner providing honest input based on my personal experience with the gun. Nothing more or less. Obviously if I was a big fan of the gun I would not have sold it.

Please keep things at an adult level.

dom1104
November 11, 2009, 03:57 PM
I was purposely exaggerating for the sake of humor.

You have to admit it is funny. Sorry if the humor is juvenile.

Its like people who love their old coon hound, even tho he never could tree coon. Loyalty afforded to the mini is amazing. And humourous, to me at least.

1858
November 11, 2009, 04:01 PM
It's about time that I join this discussion to set the record straight on one major oversight. There are some folks such as myself that own ARs and Mini-14s and like both systems for different reasons. I like the Mini enough to have one and I like ARs enough to have four. I will participate in this "challenge" without any excuses and in the name of science and could care less about winning a couple of boxes of ammo. However, I do like working up loads and knowing what each of my firearms is capable of. My involvement in this is not about seeing which rifle is better since I have both platforms for different reasons and don't consider them to be competitors.

I can say without a doubt that all of my ARs are more accurate and consistent than my Mini-14 (bought new in '96) but the Mini is stainless, 100% reliable, rugged, accurate enough and compact so I like it for what it is. I look forward to seeing what it's capable of at 100 yards with factory ammunition (XM193) and my reloads. The only "upgrade" I have is an adjustable gas block and a Hogue stock, both of which have helped accuracy. Why subject the rifle to the battering (and harmonics) that it takes each time it hurls an empty case into the next zip code? M14/M1A owners have been playing with gas regulation for decades to improve accuracy and longevity so why not the Mini?

If we can avoid some of the idiotic posts that infest the thread below maybe we can all learn something.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=485033

:)

frankiestoys
November 11, 2009, 04:13 PM
It's about time that I join this discussion to set the record straight on one major oversight. There are some folks such as myself that own ARs and Mini-14s and like both systems for different reasons. I like the Mini enough to have one and I like ARs enough to have four. I will participate in this "challenge" without any excuses and in the name of science and could care less about winning a couple of boxes of ammo. However, I do like working up loads and knowing what each of my firearms is capable of. My involvement in this is not about seeing which rifle is better since I have both platforms for different reasons and don't consider them to be competitors.

I can say without a doubt that all of my ARs are more accurate and consistent than my Mini-14 (bought new in '96) but the Mini is stainless, 100% reliable, rugged and compact so I like it for what it is. I look forward to seeing what it's capable of at 100 yards with factory ammunition (XM193) and my reloads. The only "upgrade" I have is an adjustable gas block and a Hogue stock, both of which have helped accuracy. Why subject the rifle to the battering (and harmonics) that it takes each time it hurls an empty case into the next zip code? M14/M1A owners have been playing with gas regulation for decades to improve accuracy and longevity so why not the Mini?

If we can avoid some of the idiotic posts that infest the thread below maybe we can all learn something.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=485033

:)
1858

well said!

HuntAndFish
November 11, 2009, 11:01 PM
I agree, well said. Let's try to keep it High Road.

Darn, I do not have rear irons for the Mini. I took them off when I installed the red dot and don't know where they went. I guess I'm out on the Mini unless I can scrouge some from one of you guys in KCMO.

ETA: I could shoot a couple groups, just not for the prize.

Avenger29
November 11, 2009, 11:08 PM
I agree, well said. Let's try to keep it High Road.

Darn, I do not have rear irons for the Mini. I took them off when I installed the red dot and don't know where they went. I guess I'm out on the Mini unless I can scrouge some from one of you guys in KCMO.

You don't win the prize without irons, but how about shooting anyway and posting what you get?

Heck, I don't care if your Mini is scoped, unscoped, modified, or stock, I just want to see what you mini shooters come up with while shooting, and please post the details of how your rifle is configured.

HuntAndFish
November 12, 2009, 12:22 AM
but how about shooting anyway and posting what you get?

You must have been thinking that at the same time I was.....:)

X-Rap
November 12, 2009, 12:45 AM
The last I shot my stock H-Bar it would put 5 in under an inch. The Carbines are maybe 1.5. Of course that is at 100yds. not the 22yds as shown on the sweet You tube video, are those guys really serious?

EddieNFL
November 13, 2009, 02:52 PM
Just for comparison:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a338/EddieF/20RoundTarget.jpg

Bushmaster w/DCM upper. Iron sights, slung-in prone position. 20 rounds at 200 yards, fired in about 15 minutes.

This is not my target. Fired by a friend last summer during a reduced course of fire.

HuntAndFish
November 18, 2009, 12:32 AM
Bumpty bump. Weather kept us off of the range this weekend. It's suppose to be nice this Saturday though.

janobles14
November 18, 2009, 01:06 PM
im just shocked that noone has even submitted anything! hell i might go borrow a buddies mini just to give it a go

RedLion
November 18, 2009, 03:45 PM
Yea, the silence is deafening...

Offfhand
November 18, 2009, 03:56 PM
I agree with Mr Winslow, no point in limiting test to iron sights, otherwise it's just a seeing competition.

dom1104
November 18, 2009, 04:02 PM
I would give the mini owners some time.

Its hard to get out to the range some weeks.

However I think alot of people are probably getting groups they dont WANT to post. So we will only see the cream of the crop.

I think it would be better to take signups, like get 10 AR guys and 10 mini guys to commit to posting a group. That way nobody can welsh out of it.

But internet competitions are really hard to orginize. so hopefully we will see some targets.

benzy2
November 18, 2009, 06:37 PM
The problem I have is that the fall is the worst time for me to get to the range. Between football, volleyball, working, and holidays/preparing for holidays I get very few trips to range from a month or so ago to about the first of the new year. If I get to the range before this thread dies I will post EVERY group shot at 100 yards out of my AR, be that good or bad.

X - Man
November 18, 2009, 08:15 PM
Finding commercial target grade ammo has been a real problem in these parts. Nothing is available with a heavier weight bullet. Reloading components are just as scarce. So it going to take awhile before I can get out to the range. I'm collecting reloading supplies just as fast as I can find them. 55gr FMJ is too light for my Mini's 1 in 7 twist barrel for target work. Unless you're a coyote, then it's good enough.

tlmkr38
November 18, 2009, 08:55 PM
Ok I just curious here.Are you talking about shooting these groups our of stock rifles or can they be accurized? I'm just wondering.

X-Rap
November 18, 2009, 09:24 PM
I say stock AR's and any Mini, just be honnest when posting if its not stock. Maybe throw in the SKS guys. they will pretty much out shoot most mini's too.

Candiru
November 20, 2009, 01:47 AM
How about nonmagnified scopes? I have an Aimpoint on my Mini and would rather not fight the loctite to take it off. It technically cowitnesses with the irons, though, so I could just turn off the dot if need be.

frankiestoys
November 20, 2009, 09:30 AM
I will be heading to the range this weekend ( if it does'nt rain ) every trip with my mini has given me consistant 1 1/2 groups, but i use a scope. I believe ,(as many others have said ) that a scope helps the accuracy of the shooter (me) , not the rifle ,my eyes are just not that good ( sorry).
So if my tagets show the consistant groups ,even with the scope, i believe it's the rifles credit not mine.
Im not concerned about winning a box of ammo but showing the accuracy of the newer mini. :)

Avenger29
November 20, 2009, 12:54 PM
Ok I just curious here.Are you talking about shooting these groups our of stock rifles or can they be accurized? I'm just wondering.

We've already covered that. Read the second page. Just have to use irons.

I agree with Mr Winslow, no point in limiting test to iron sights, otherwise it's just a seeing competition.

Then how about simply shooting the groups with a scope, posting what you get, and being honest about your equipment? You aren't eligible for the prize but at least you will prove your Mini can shoot the groups.

I will be heading to the range this weekend ( if it does'nt rain ) every trip with my mini has given me consistant 1 1/2 groups, but i use a scope. I believe ,(as many others have said ) that a scope helps the accuracy of the shooter (me) , not the rifle ,my eyes are just not that good ( sorry).
So if my tagets show the consistant groups ,even with the scope, i believe it's the rifles credit not mine.
Im not concerned about winning a box of ammo but showing the accuracy of the newer mini

Ah, we have a shooter! Good luck, sir.

R.W.Dale
November 20, 2009, 01:08 PM
Thank you Avenger29! I was just sitting down to make the same clarification.


By all means if you want to use your scoped mini to show us what this platform can do please feel free to submit targets same goes for the AR15/other guy's.

But you will not be eligable for the "grand prize"

Now as to WHY? 2.5" at 100yds, well it all goes back to the last paragraph of this post
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6025814&postcount=25

The purpose for the 2 boxes of ammo is it puts some of my "skin in the game" making this challenge. In fact making it an open challenge instead of just another trash talking session

McBuck
November 20, 2009, 01:14 PM
I love this stuff.
I love my 580 too.
But AR-vs-Mini 14 ? I have heard this argument before. They are both fine rifles, and both serve a specific purpose/need for certain people for both guns.
Oh well ! Let the beating continue !

cleetus03
November 20, 2009, 01:44 PM
I agree with Mr Winslow, no point in limiting test to iron sights, otherwise it's just a seeing competition.

^I agree........but I must say that anyone who can shoot a target 100 yrds out with groups under 2.5" using iron sights is a badass in my book regardless of rifle used!

Andrew Wyatt
November 20, 2009, 02:07 PM
Here's a better test.

Open to any rifle combination.

Shoot a rifle ten. post your score.

Rifle Ten

This is one of the classic drills used by Jeff Cooper. A single IPSC "option " target is placed at 300 yards. There are five firing points, one each at 300, 275, 250, 225, and 200. The shooter stands clear of his firing point at 300 yards.

On signal the shooter moves to the firing point , assumes any position he chooses and engages the 300 yard target with two rounds. He immediately moves to the 275 yard position firing two more shots, then advances to the 250 yard position, fires two more rounds, and then to the 225 yard position where a 2 foot high baffle precludes prone or supine position and fires two more rounds. He the moves to the 200 yard position where a 3 foot high screen eliminates any position but off hand or standing and fires two rounds.

Score is based upon the hit values divide by your time in minutes, with a par time of 2 minutes. To prevent someone throwing away the two 200 yard shots you can use a separate target for the 200 yard stage. The option target is scored 5, 4, 2. A score of 40 in two minutes is considered very good.


In interests of fairness, decrease all distances by 100 yards.

X-Rap
November 20, 2009, 02:16 PM
The shooter is then tested not the rifle, no answer to the question of the ages. Mini or AR?

Andrew Wyatt
November 20, 2009, 02:23 PM
The shooter is then tested not the rifle, no answer to the question of the ages. Mini or AR?


Exactly. I'm willing to bet upwards of five dollars no one on this thread can shoot well enough under conditions even slightly adverse for it to matter.

Avenger29
November 20, 2009, 02:28 PM
Exactly. I'm willing to bet upwards of five dollars no one on this thread can shoot well enough under conditions even slightly adverse for it to matter.

You can do all the drills you want. We've got people claiming that their Mini can hang with an AR-15 in the accuracy department, and Krochus has offered a challenge to those. We want to see what the rifle can do, not what the shooter is offering.

McBuck
November 20, 2009, 04:26 PM
You'd win. That would be a tough test for...99% of the average everyday shooter.

McBuck
November 20, 2009, 04:41 PM
Avenger29 said
"You can do all the drills you want. We've got people claiming that their Mini can hang with an AR-15 in the accuracy department, and Krochus has offered a challenge to those. We want to see what the rifle can do, not what the shooter is offering."

I couldn't find the quote icon, so I copied and pasted...hope you don't mind.

I agree with you, and I am a Mini-14 owner. I have the 580 tactical with the 18" bbl.

As a rule, I think you are probably right...a good quality AR is probably more accurate than most Mini-14's. I would consider myself luck in that I got a pretty accurate Mini. It can hold about a 6"-4" 100 yard group with iron sights...but that is with my old eyes shooting it. A better shooter may do a little better.
With a scope I may be able to tighten it up some, but all in all I would say as a rule that AR's, or at least a good one, in the hands of a decent shot may fare a little better than a Mini. I would call a Mini a 4" gun and a good AR a 2.5" gun But there are exceptions to every rule.
If I scrape enough cash and can get my Mini scoped, I will post my target and let it stand.
btw...my Mini is stock off the shelf. It is a great little gun, and reliable to a fault. It tends to eat every thing I shove into it...factory mags only though...after market is for crap.
I actually wanted an AR, but I am one of those country boys who has to put his toys in lay-away, and pay oout over time. I did pick it up for about $400 less than what a Bushmaster was selling for at the time : that is the market for Mini-14 owners is anyway...a poor mans SHTF defense rifle. Nothing fancy, but it will serve a purpose.

I will add one more thing...I have owned several Minis in the past, and only one of them shot worth a flip. The rest were...I think some one called it "minute of barn"

wow6599
November 20, 2009, 06:44 PM
I will try to post some pics if I can make it to the range Sunday. I have a NRA Mini with a Nikon Prostaff 3-9x40 that will give me (at times) 1" groups @ 100 using WM $39.99 Federal 55 gr fmj "value packs". Sometimes it will open up to 1.5"-2". I just went last Saturday and shot with my father-in-law, my Mini and his new Rock River AR and the little NRA made shots a 75 yrds under 1" and the barrel was smoking. The AR, 3" +.
Now, i switched to Federal 50 gr hp and it opened up to 3" +. Also, he was using crap Wolf ammo, so I'll cut some slack.
I really do have an elusive MOA Mini (on good days;)) - without a single modification.

McBuck
November 20, 2009, 09:01 PM
I am on the hopes that my Tactical Mini will shoot as well as yours wow6599.
I am anxious to get some glass on it and see what it will do. I am planning on putting a low power variable on it...maybe a Banner 1.5-4.5x32 because of the length and weight factor..Whaddya think ?
I do think that some of the ideas here are ..."accurate" to a pont. ( pun intended) and that most AR's are a little more accurate. But I will say that the Minis are typically more sturdy than an AR.

wishin
November 20, 2009, 10:38 PM
I have a target mini-14 that shoots 3/4" groups consistently at 100 yds, using 68 grain Ultramax ammo ONLY. I've tried all the other bullet weights and manufacturers and can't match or beat that. I've not seen a scoped AR that can do that on a regular basis.

X-Rap
November 20, 2009, 10:46 PM
You have the 1 in a million,I'd keep buying lottery tickets.

R.W.Dale
November 20, 2009, 10:51 PM
You have the 1 in a million,I'd keep buying lottery tickets.

Or better yet submit targets as per the rules in post one

wishin
November 20, 2009, 11:05 PM
Krochus, even if I can't get to the range before the end of the year, and the end of your contest, I'll' send the targets when I next shoot.

icanthitabarn
November 20, 2009, 11:25 PM
I was shocked when my older Mini kept all the rounds on a little orange dot. No scope, just the orange glo stick glued to the front site. The stick even survived a trip to Ruger for a bolt replacement. They took out the buffer. Oh ya, shot at 50 feet.

frankiestoys
November 21, 2009, 07:20 PM
Well i was able to get out today the weather was great here in sunny Florida.
First im going to say is , I want an AR . But before i here any :cuss: Let me explain i went to the range in Palm Beach, it is sponsered by our local sheriff's. (fine men and women ) There facility has 50 yrds 100 yrds and 200,
Rifles only no handguns . My mini 14 as always does a fine job and i think my targets will show that. I was having a little trouble at first with the scope it was shooting way to the left , i bore sighted it and everything :confused:
It took awhile and i even got some help from a friend who brought along his very nice Bushmaster. We finally got the mini to hit close enough to give the contest some good results. I didn't follow the challenge to the letter in fact these two targets are the results of about eight or more.
The mini did a great job at 50 yrds and a respectable job at 100 yrds. Ammo used was remington fmj.
My friends Bushmaster was keeping much tighter groups at the 100 yrds then the mini. He also owns a mini and said ''It's a great little carbine'' but like's his AR better.
As i have said in my other post they are both good rifles and both deserve
some respect Im never selling my mini 14 but i think i want an AR too.:D
Any recomendations on a lower end AR are welcome.

McBuck
November 21, 2009, 08:50 PM
Acceptable for an auto IMO. But a little info on your gun :
What model Mini was it ? 180 series, 194...etc
What type glass do you have on it ?
Were there any mods to the gun ?
And last, but not least...can you post a pic of the gun ?

frankiestoys
November 21, 2009, 09:08 PM
Acceptable for an auto IMO. But a little info on your gun :
What model Mini was it ? 180 series, 194...etc
What type glass do you have on it ?
Were there any mods to the gun ?
And last, but not least...can you post a pic of the gun ?
580 series
nikon pro staff
trigger job
home made accu strut

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2009, 05:05 AM
frankiestoys how did you measure your group. I ran it through ontarget several times and I always came up with over 3"

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/FIRE/TgtGfxrugermini.jpg

frankiestoys
November 24, 2009, 06:35 AM
With a simple ruler , not from center of target. I don't have any fancy software.
I still think its respectable enough for a mini , maybe not to enough to win .
That's not important to me, my only purpose was to show that the (new ) mini 14 is an improved little carbine and not an inaccurate piece of S..t

dom1104
November 24, 2009, 08:11 AM
huh. that accu-strut must do its job, that is an impressive group for a mini.

3 moa is not bad at all.

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2009, 10:58 AM
With a simple ruler , not from center of target.
That's not important to me, my only purpose was to show that the (new ) mini 14 is an improved little carbine and not an inaccurate piece of S..t


We'll just have to agree to disagree then.Because at 3 moa from an accurized scoped model that would NOT be my assesment

dom1104
November 24, 2009, 11:28 AM
I think 3 moa is impressive for a mini.

But what i dont understand is why a ruler would show up 2 3/4 and some software would show 3?

What are we to believe?

My gut would say a ruler is more accurate than some fancy dancy software.

frankiestoys
November 24, 2009, 11:30 AM
well you know what they say about opinion's
Besides, a bad guy at the end of this rifle wouldn't be able to tell if it was a Mini or an AR
and thats enough for me.

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2009, 11:41 AM
I think 3 moa is impressive for a mini.

But what i dont understand is why a ruler would show up 2 3/4 and some software would show 3?

What are we to believe?

My gut would say a ruler is more accurate than some fancy dancy software.

This program has proven to be EXTREMELY accurate and has been accepted as the scoring method for all of THR's online matches.

Just as a double check I ran this file group I had shot with my rem7615 police carbine through the software using the same input values. As you can see on/target pretty much agrees with my digital calipers for this target.

stchman
November 24, 2009, 01:54 PM
Very nice groupings at 100 yards. People that say Minis are inaccurate have never shot one.

stchman
November 24, 2009, 02:12 PM
My only problem with this test is that there should be the following rules:

All rifles are stock. The price range should be under $1000 for each rifle
No bull barrels
No fancy optics
No mods of any kind
No harmonic dampeners

Same brand/weight ammo needs to be used.

Each rifle needs to be locked down in a solid bench rest. You need to remove the shooter from the equation. We are finding out how accurate the rifle is, not the shooter. Some people are a better shot than others.

Once the rifle is completely locked down in a solid rest then pull the trigger 10 times to see what the results are.

A sample of 10 of each rifle should be used and remove teh high and low in each group.

xsquidgator
November 24, 2009, 02:12 PM
krochus-
A little off-topic but THANKS! for the info about ontargetcalc. That's frickin' awesome and I wish I'd known about it a couple of years ago. Re- program accuracy, I just ran it on some old targets I'd done and it agrees with my painfully slow measurements with a ruler.

General Geoff
November 24, 2009, 02:14 PM
Each rifle needs to be locked down in a solid bench rest. You need to remove the shooter from the equation. We are finding out how accurate the rifle is, not the shooter. Some people are a better shot than others.

Once the rifle is completely locked down in a solid rest then pull the trigger 10 times to see what the results are.

Why the ban on fancy optics then? Optics do not affect mechanical accuracy, only shooter ability.

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2009, 03:18 PM
Why the ban on fancy optics then? Optics do not affect mechanical accuracy, only shooter ability.

or better yet just shoot the darn groups and quit complaining:rolleyes:


here's my submission I just shot

The average for the two groups is 1.72"

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/FIRE/retroarvsmini.jpg

shot with this rifle, as stock an ar as you can possibly get.
a bone stock pencil thin barreled army surplus colt 603 upper in a1 configuration.
cast EA lower with a parts kit fire control group
ammo was really old Black hills 52grn HP
all 10 rds were fired over the course of 2min 20 sec

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/1a5952bc.jpg




and yes on target is accurate. I was a bit baffled by the discrepancy of Group no 2 but after going back and double checking I found because of the holes position on the edge of the plastic sticker it oblongs as it borders the edge of the decal thus group size based on this hole is diffrent from its inside or outside measurment vs the other extreme hole on calipers. On target splits this discrepancy almost exactly.

frankiestoys
November 24, 2009, 03:43 PM
krochus

Thats some fine shooting and a nice AR , i was just looking at a DPMS on GB ,but i still think that a bad guy wouldn't know the difference at the wrong end of my mini .:D

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2009, 03:49 PM
krochus

Thats some fine shooting and a nice AR , i was just looking at a DPMS on GB ,but i still think that a bad guy at the end of my mini wouldn't know the difference .:D

Thanks!

My issue with this is I shoot targets,other items & small furry woodland creatures a whole whole whole lot more often than bad guys, and these targets would indeed know the difference.

DPMS makes a fine piece of equipment you won't be disappointed

X - Man
November 24, 2009, 05:19 PM
Frankiestoys: I wanted to ask what type of ammo did you use?

frankiestoys
November 24, 2009, 05:36 PM
Frankiestoys: I wanted to ask what type of ammo did you use?
Well im sure it would have helped my resuts if i used some better ammo, but whats done is done .
Remington 55 gr fmj mc

X - Man
November 24, 2009, 10:13 PM
Thanks, I'm just taking notes on results. I agree with your comment, as getting a good match between rifle and ammo is critical for best results.

Good shooting, by the way.

Avenger29
November 24, 2009, 10:46 PM
Well im sure it would have helped my resuts if i used some better ammo, but whats done is done .
Remington 55 gr fmj mc

If you can find a favorite brand of ammunition...I'd like to see the results.

420Stainless
November 25, 2009, 11:34 AM
Does barrel length play any factor with the potential accuracy? I know short rifles can be capable of great accuracy, but most of the ARs I see pictures of that are set up for matches seem to have at least a 20" barrel and often longer. Seems at the very least that both rifles should be of equivalent weight (+ a couple of ounces) if not similar in other respects.

Just wanted to ask because I've never shot an AR or .223 and am curious in case I look into getting one someday. I do have a mini, but its a virgin 6.8SPC thats been waiting quite some time for me to load ammo for it. Obviously I need to spend more time at the rifle range learning more about this stuff, but I've always been more into handguns.

If I do get some 6.8 SPC loaded can it count in the AR vs Mini debate?

R.W.Dale
November 25, 2009, 11:46 AM
Does barrel length play any factor with the potential accuracy?

In terms of pure mechanical accuracy in theory a shorter and therefore stiffer barrel SHOULD be more accurate than the same barrel in a longer length. Now shooting at long ranges the muzzle velocity loss associated with a short barrel can become an accuracy decreasing factor. But we're talkin 300 or 400 meters plus before this factor comes into play!

Sight radius is another factor. Shorter barrels typically have a shorter sight radius making them a bit more difficult to shoot accurately using irons. BUT this leaves me with a question for the mini guys How far apart is the front and rear sight on a ruger mini?

R.W.Dale
November 25, 2009, 12:01 PM
Here we are 2 weeks in and over 100 replies later and still no mini targets submitted that have been shot along the guidelines set forth in post number 1.......


here is the first out of two runs I made yesterday (my official submission is on pg 10) this one wasn't as good as the second so it didn't get officiated. But hey I figure I'll post it to show that my other submission wasn't a fluke.

2.022" average


1st
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/GROUPS/TgtGfx-1.jpg

2nd
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/GROUPS/group21stattempt.jpg

420Stainless
November 25, 2009, 12:14 PM
BUT this leaves me with a question for the mini guys How far apart is the front and rear sight on a ruger mini?


Mine are just about 22 inches apart.

I still think any AR's used for comparison should be limited to 7 pounds weight and $800 max. cost for a fair comparison.

dom1104
November 25, 2009, 12:20 PM
seriously. less rules more targets. its getting tedious.

We all know the ARs will win, what we are interested in is how well the minis can do.

General Geoff
November 25, 2009, 12:20 PM
Here we are 2 weeks in and over 100 replies later and still no mini targets submitted that have been shot along the guidelines set forth in post number 1.......

Closest thing I own to a Mini-14 is an M1A. My friend with the Mini hasn't gotten back to me yet :(

R.W.Dale
November 25, 2009, 12:44 PM
Mine are just about 22 inches apart.




Advantage mini then My 20" A1's sights are only 20" apart


I still think any AR's used for comparison should be limited to 7 pounds weight and $800 max. cost for a fair comparison.

WHY????????When the only AR submitted save for about .5lbs so far sails under your "requirement" with flying colors. Heck it even has a thinner barrel:rolleyes:


We all know the ARs will win, what we are interested in is how well the minis can do.

+1000000000

More targets less excuses! Since I started this thread I've done nothing but make concessions to the MINI crowd allowing accurizing and now optics. It's not like I'm asking for sub MOA groups. We're talking TWO and a HALF INCHES for crying out loud.

X-Rap
November 25, 2009, 12:50 PM
I still think any AR's used for comparison should be limited to 7 pounds weight and $800 max. cost for a fair comparison.

The issue from the start has not been cost or weight but how they perform, I can pretty much guarantee that the AR's will win on the average and won't have to have truss'es attached to the front end. If AR's are to simply improved then it seems that helps in answering the age old question then doesn't it.
I think that the 7# $800. criteria will bump out quite a few AR's but I never thought accuracy was to be sacrificed to cost. If that is the test then lets shoot SKS's and put the cap at $250 or even the $59 that I gave for mine.

R.W.Dale
November 25, 2009, 12:55 PM
If that is the test then lets shoot SKS's and put the cap at $250 or even the $59 that I gave for mine

Please shoot it! It's not like I'm going to prevent you from posting pics. At his point I don't care what gets submitted provided it's an autoloading centerfire and uses non magnified optics........Mini guys you can still use a scope just not to claim the prize ammo

X-Rap
November 25, 2009, 01:04 PM
I will try to get out over the weekend if I don't make a fishing trip and shoot a few AR's and a SKS. I don't have a mini and don't even know anybody that does anymore.
I'll go open sights on the H-Bar, 2x7 leupold on a light barreled carbine and a eotec or trijicon on M-forgeries.
Might need some help with the pic posting.

General Geoff
November 25, 2009, 01:18 PM
At his point I don't care what gets submitted provided it's an autoloading centerfire and uses non magnified optics........


Alright, you asked for it... :D

http://www.shadowflareindustries.com/images/11-25-09/m1a1s.jpg

Measures 4.5" (the far shot up top measures 4.5" from the other two furthest, making roughly an equilateral triangle), it looks a bit bigger in the photo because the measuring tape is floating about an inch above the plate. I made sure to line up the edge of the tape with the edge of the left hole. I got that 15-shot group while shooting off-hand standing. :eek: I'm not entirely sure I could reproduce that if I tried...

R.W.Dale
November 25, 2009, 01:23 PM
That's cool General now please go out and shoot the 2 5shot in under 3min challange

General Geoff
November 25, 2009, 01:29 PM
will-do, once I get someone to accompany and time me :)


edit; looks like I'll have a chance to do it Saturday.

R.W.Dale
November 26, 2009, 12:14 PM
Terrific! I look forward to seeing your results

General Geoff
November 26, 2009, 06:17 PM
Had a chance to shoot this morning. Here are my results (click for full size):

http://www.shadowflareindustries.com/images/cpp/11-26-09/groupmed.jpg (http://www.shadowflareindustries.com/images/cpp/11-26-09/1126091154.jpg)

I haven't actually done a measurement with a ruler or tape measure yet, but it looks like 3 MOA (average of the two targets) as-is. I didn't realistically expect any better with milsurp ammo, which is all I have at the moment. Just as a note, the left target I shot second, so barrel heatup has nothing to do with the group sizes (the rifle was already warm anyway, as I'd shot a few test groups before that set). I didn't write "AR15 vs Mini14" on the targets because I don't qualify for the contest anyway, technically :P

But bottom line, ~3" average is the best I can muster with my equipment. Done with a Springfield M1A Standard, 100 yards, iron sights, prone. Rifle:

http://www.shadowflareindustries.com/images/cpp/11-26-09/riflemed.jpg

frankiestoys
November 26, 2009, 06:39 PM
Nice shootin General , good looking rifle too. My dad owned one when i was a kid he's still mad he sold it.

General Geoff
November 26, 2009, 07:36 PM
Thanks. I got a huge kick out of shooting in the leaves, note the large patch of leafless grass directly in front of the muzzle. My friend Ed was observing, and he observed the leaves being blown away by the muzzle blast. Also, after shooting two sets of five shots, the leaves directly under the rifle were smoking for some reason! :D

R.W.Dale
November 26, 2009, 07:47 PM
Great shooting general, nice equipment too:D

Your average according to on target is 3.092"

420Stainless
November 26, 2009, 11:29 PM
The issue from the start has not been cost or weight but how they perform

Cost and weight were the two reasons why I chose a Mini over an AR. I haven't seen any off-the-shelf ARs available for within $200 of my Mini and most stock ARs, even in carbine configuration, come in at over a pound heavier. If someone designs a 6.5lb AR that sells for $700, runs reliably, and always gives < 3 minutes of angle then they would surely dominate the market. But most of the time, one of those attributes needs to be sacrificed in order to meet another. I just read an article for the new STI AR that's 6.5lbs and shoots less than one minute of angle (highly impressive). However, it MSRPs at $1300 - which probably puts the street price at > $1100. A great value for what it is, but too expensive for what I want in handy carbine.

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2009, 12:24 AM
Cost and weight were the two reasons why I chose a Mini over an AR. I haven't seen any off-the-shelf ARs available for within $200 of my Mini and most stock ARs, even in carbine configuration, come in at over a pound heavier. If someone designs a 6.5lb AR that sells for $700, runs reliably, and always gives < 3 minutes of angle then they would surely dominate the market. But most of the time, one of those attributes needs to be sacrificed in order to meet another. I just read an article for the new STI AR that's 6.5lbs and shoots less than one minute of angle (highly impressive). However, it MSRPs at $1300 - which probably puts the street price at > $1100. A great value for what it is, but too expensive for what I want in handy carbine.


http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=5295 :rolleyes:
$704 @ 6.3lbs and it comes with 2 30rd mags an $80 value on the Mini


here it is for $660
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=147682841
You mini guys don't seem to be very savvy shoppers

BHP FAN
November 27, 2009, 12:25 AM
''You mini guys don't seem to be very savvy shoppers..''

Well,I bought mine for $200.00.

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2009, 12:38 AM
''You mini guys don't seem to be very savvy shoppers..''

Well,I bought mine for $200.00.

Lets stick to new prices for comparisons, used prices on ANYTHING really only reflect on the seller's knowledge

Where are all these mythical sub $500 mini's? In the past 10 years of me trolling every gun shoppe in a 300mile radius I have yet to see a ruger Mini ANYTHING priced at less than $600. Be that used, new or looking like it was ran over with a farm implement.

danez71
November 27, 2009, 10:01 AM
Nice challenge Krochus.

I would have liked better if it was unmodified vs unmodified. But.....

I have a mini that I dont shoot any more however, I DONT think I could have beat your challange.

I always thought of my mini 14 as a Ranch rifle instead of a sniper or target rifle. Still like the gun though as I think it performs its intended purpose fairly well.

Nice challenge.

SHvar
November 27, 2009, 12:18 PM
As a long time Mini14 owner I can tell you that the reason there are still no Mini14 submissions that come close to the competition standards is plain and simple.
The mini is made as an inexpensive ranch rifle, period.
With several hours and lots of ammo to fire, and a very good scope mounted on mine years ago I could get the first 2 shots in about an inch at 100 yds, after that the shots strayed wider and wider, usually by about 1 to 2 inches more, and wider as you fired more.
In the time allotted, a mini14 or 30 can only place about 3-4 shots in the 2.5 inch group if you are locked down to eliminate as much human error as possible. Im basing this from my old stainless mini14 that has the very thin barrel, the one I bought in 1992.
Obviously the submissions from newer heavier barreled, very heavily modified mini14s are proving that no amount of money, or equipment will improve that.

Both 16 inch ARs I have shoot far better. Oh, and the trigger assembly doesnt rattle loose with the factory stock, then fall out unexpectantly while firing such as happens with the mini14 or 30.
For the responce about reliability and lubrication used near the beginning, without lubrication of any kind, any AR or M-16 Ive ever seen will far outperform and mini14 ever.
The mini 14 will eat lots of cheap ammo and in all my years shooting it Ive had one jamb, a case stuck in the chamber once, it took a bit to get loose but it happened. My ARs have never had that problem period. Keep in mind I could fire both of my Ars (Bushy, and DPMS) rather quickly and group all 20 shots in the area that my mini 14 would group 5 shots taking all day to allow the barrel to cool between shots.

BushyGuy
November 27, 2009, 12:23 PM
Oh please a suped up Mini-14 vs a fully modified AR-15 -it wont be a fair contest cuz AR15's that have trigger jobs and Bushmaster barrels will be undefeated in this match-up.

Gas piston Mini-14s even the target rifles are no match for fully upgraded AR's DI has better accuracy then any gas piston rifle on the planet, only downside is the jams.

Looks like Mini-14 owners are looking for revenge on how bad they are being beaten by match grade AR15's :p

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2009, 12:39 PM
Oh please a suped up Mini-14 vs a fully modified AR-15 -it wont be a fair contest cuz AR15's that have trigger jobs and Bushmaster barrels will be undefeated in this match-up.

And yet we have a cast lower, cheap parts kit trigger, ????? round count surplus chrome lined pencil thin barreled US army surplus upper'ed AR shooting iron sights besting the only mini target submitted from a modded scoped Mini.

Plus if you'd bothered to read the OP you would see that this isn't really a Mini vs AR match, but rather it's getting JUST ONE example of two groups from a mini that average a rather underwhelming 2.5" at 100 yds. As I mentioned previously the other submissions are to simply show that it can be done.

At the rate we're going I have no doubt I'll be shooting the 2 boxes of Monarch through my AR come February What happened to the mini guys on perfectunion?

Ratshooter
November 27, 2009, 05:12 PM
I would like to try this but right now is deer season. I shoot where I hunt and don't want to shoot the place up until I have a second deer in the freezer.

I may go to a public range (yuck) and do the shooting. But most likely I will wait till after the hunting is finished.

You mentioned perfect union. Have you posted the contest oer there? I haven't been on PU in a while.

Redneck with a 40
November 27, 2009, 09:30 PM
As soon as I can get my mini out to shoot, I'll post up my results. I'll be shooting my handload's and my mini is scoped. I'm not really interested in the ammo, I just want to see if I can get (2) 2.5" goups. I think its doable.:)

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2009, 09:32 PM
As soon as I can get my mini out to shoot, I'll post up my results. I'll be shooting my handload's and my mini is scoped. I'm not really interested in the ammo, I just want to see if I can get (2) 2.5" goups. I think its doable.:)

I tip my hat to you sir!

I look forward to your submission

C-grunt
November 28, 2009, 02:10 AM
Well I should be going to the range on Sunday. Ill see what my old Colt 6520 can do. I hope I dont embarrass myself to much. maybe even throw in my M96 Swede for the hell of it, just so we have some more pictures here!

X - Man
November 28, 2009, 08:54 PM
Redneck with a 40, I agree with you, I also think it can be done. And like you, it's all about what my rifle can do.

The weather here has been terrible for shooting for weeks, and remains very muddy. First chance I get, it's off to the range.

I still beating the bushes looking for good target ammo, though.

1KPerDay
November 29, 2009, 12:35 AM
People that say Minis are inaccurate have never shot one.

My mini is inaccurate. And I've shot it. See?

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/35a4834f.jpg

It's a 195 series ranch rifle, scoped. Stock other than a m14-style flash hider (which is supposed to improve accuracy). That's 50 yards, prone, from a rest. 9 inch pie plate.

Steve Marshall
November 29, 2009, 03:23 PM
I bought a Mini Ranch many years ago. I put a Really really nice Tasco 3x9 on it and proceeded to shoot 5-6" groups at 100 yards. So I tried PMC. 5-6". I tried Remington Factory in several different iterations. 5-6". I tried Winchester. 5-6". Years later, I tried FGMM. 47/8-57/8"!!! Oh joy! Now I'm on to something. I reloaded Berger, Ballistic Tips, Lapua, and Hornady's. 41/2 -6". Now this might not be what krochus was looking for BUT-- you have to admit this was a consistent Mini. A few years ago, I traded it and 4 each Ruger 20's and 30's even up on a new Bushmaster.

Redneck with a 40
November 29, 2009, 03:50 PM
I'll have to prove it with a target post, but I'm getting 2.5" groups with my handload's and a 580 series Mini. My biggest groups are hovering right around 3" at 100 yards. The Mini has definitely improved from the early models.

My dad's 180 series will print 6" at 100 yards, mine is quite a bit more accurate than that.

frankiestoys
November 29, 2009, 03:54 PM
Redneck
thats about right
lets see those targets :)

McBuck
November 30, 2009, 03:52 PM
I am not a semi-auto guru, but I would call this a decent 50yd group for a semi.
I was shooting Fiocchi 55gr FMJs out of a hot bbl. This was basically a 16 round mag dump. I have only shot this gun once before this range trip, and only had zeroed it at 25yds. This is with the factory peep sight too. My sight picture was holding the front post at the bottom of the larger orange dot to not completely obscure it. My eyes are old enough to barely make out the orange dot, so don't be too cruel on me. I am still contemplating on a scope as I like the gun without glass, but feel like a scope would make a huge difference with my less than stellar vision.

oops...forgot to tell you this was from a factory OOTB 580 Tactical Mini-14

Ratshooter
December 1, 2009, 03:51 PM
Here is a link for a photo of one of the groups and the story for the straight taper 580 series mini I shot a while back. I did not have a good rest. This is only 50 yards. It is with open sights. I bought a new 580 with the tapered barrel and it shoots better. I sold the first mini. I wish I had it back. It was 3/4 of a pound lighter than the newest mini.

I plan on shooting my new gun at 100 yards and when I do I will post it. I did set up 6 2 liter coke bottles full of water and shot them at 75 yards. All but one bottle fell over when shot. So I shot it twice more. When I looked at the holes in each bottle if they had of been on one bottle the group would have been about two inches. Those were shot using a tree for support for my left hand and not off a bench.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?p=508464#post508464

If you click on the link for some reason it lands in the middle of the page. Jump to the top to see the whole thread.

frankiestoys
December 1, 2009, 04:00 PM
Ratshooter
this shows that the 580 series is a better gun then the older mini , it still wont convince the judge or the mini haters but who cares anyway.
nice shooting.

Ratshooter
December 1, 2009, 06:22 PM
Thanks Frankie. I forgot to take the allen wrench to adjust the rear sight with me. I was holding on the very bottom of the bull and was still shooting high.

I don't know why so many people badmouth the mini. It never was pushed by ruger to compete one on one with the AR as far as I know. I could have bought an AR just as easy as a mini, I just like the way the mini felt in my hands over the AR. A personal choice. We can still make those. You just can't make them without someone jumping up and telling you how wrong you are and that you should have bought what they would have bought.

McBuck
December 1, 2009, 08:05 PM
On AR's ? Personally, I carried one for five years and never did like those "Mattel" knock offs. Always rattling around in a CUCV, catching more dust than a Hoover, and generally being a pain in the rear to clean and keep running properly. These were the old A1's mind you , and while they shot relatively well and would hold a zero they did tend to be what we called "jam-masters", especially when they got a little dirty after a long night fire, or a few days at Hohenfels. I never could get used to the things. I always shot "Expert", and I use that term loosely because mot many GI's could tell you the muzzle velocity, energy or bullet weight of a 556mm NATO. The gun(s) were not comfortable to shoot. Recoil felt like a little girl trying to slap a plastic cork gun out of your hands and follow up sight pictures are terrible on em. I always thought those goofy carry handles were for girls who didn't know how to properly carry a weapon, and what is up with that 3" tall front sight. No, no...I will stay with the little brother of what Patton called "the finest battle implement ever invented."

I'll get back to the range and get a yard 5 shot group as soon as I can. Heck, I hope I can even see 100 yards through a peep sight !:evil:

X - Man
December 5, 2009, 04:23 PM
Photos of three targets I shot last week:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96...E/3faadbe1.jpg.

100 yards, from a prone position off a sandbag. Used Federal 223 Rem 55 gr. FMJ, value pack. My Mini is a Ranch S/S 188 series 1 in 7 twist, with a Bushnell Sportsview 3 x 9 scope. (Once I'm satisfied and document the performance of my Mini I'm going to remove the scope). The Mini has its original barrel, with many mods made for improved performance. That's another posting topic.

I call these targets preliminary for two reasons. These show the Mini's groupings before cryo-treatment, as the process is being done to the rifle currently. After treatment target photos will be shown when I get back out to the range later.

Also, I shot two single groups of five rounds, in a time of three minutes per group, and reloaded the magazine between groups. For the final target submission two groups of five rounds each must be shot in the three minute time limit. This time criteria is the standard set by Krochus and will ensure that target results reflect the consistency of the rifle and shooter.

I couldn't see using more ammo than necessary in this first round of shooting. The second round will test how well this Mini, with its new cryo-treatment, holds up under the time allotted.

Thanks to Krochus, he has been very helpful in the review, photographing and plotting of these targets.

R.W.Dale
December 5, 2009, 04:27 PM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/FIRE/3faadbe1.jpg
Photos of three targets I shot last week:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/FIRE/3faadbe1.jpg.

100 yards, from a prone position off a sandbag. Used Federal 223 Rem 55 gr. FMJ, value pack. My Mini is a Ranch S/S 188 series 1 in 7 twist, with a Bushnell Sportsview 3 x 9 scope. (Once I'm satisfied and document the performance of my Mini I'm going to remove the scope). The Mini has its original barrel, with many mods made for improved performance. That's another posting topic.

I call these targets preliminary for two reasons. These show the Mini's groupings before cryo-treatment, as the process is being done to the rifle currently. After treatment target photos will be shown when I get back out to the range later.

Also, I shot two single groups of five rounds, in a time of three minutes per group, and reloaded the magazine between groups. For the final target submission two groups of five rounds each must be shot in the three minute time limit. This time criteria is the standard set by Krochus and will ensure that target results reflect the consistency of the rifle and shooter.

I couldn't see using more ammo than necessary in this first round of shooting. The second round will test how well this Mini, with its new cryo-treatment, holds up under the time allotted.

Thanks to Krochus, he has been very helpful in the review, photographing and plotting of these targets.


Nice Please keep us posted on your progress

Hammerhead6814
December 5, 2009, 07:01 PM
Two years ago when Mini-14's were being sold for $500~, I'd have rooted for them.

But now Ruger and they're dealers decided they're $200~ to build rifles are now worth $600-$700, I'm all for the AR-15's. Even though I still think they're the bastard child of Eugene Stoner's AR-10. :evil:

GO AR-15's!!!

Casefull
December 5, 2009, 11:43 PM
I am not supplying any targets but I have 3 mini 14s and more ar style rifles and the rugers suck in the accuracy dept., as in I could not believe how inaccurate they are. It is 1 to 2 in for the ar's and 4 in plus for the rugers.

BillCh
December 6, 2009, 12:24 AM
"...and never did like those "Mattel" knock offs.."

I've been watching this thread for a while.
The M16A1/"AR" was my issue weapon. It failed me twice, Once when I needed it most.
Never again.
A cheap-o piston gun is my preference now. They just shoot.
Any AR is second best.

I've got a Mini-14, never clean it or anything, just shoot it. I've never had a FTF.
Lets try that with an AR.

B

McBuck
December 6, 2009, 02:31 PM
"It failed me twice, Once when I needed it most."

I know men who have a limp from those failures. What is worse, is those men can tell you tales of men that lost their lives from those failures. I don't recall a Mini ever costing a mans life because it didn't go bang when it was supposed to. That is the legacy of an AR...IMO.

X-Rap
December 6, 2009, 02:51 PM
I know men who have a limp from those failures. What is worse, is those men can tell you tales of men that lost their lives from those failures. I don't recall a Mini ever costing a mans life because it didn't go bang when it was supposed to. That is the legacy of an AR...IMO.
__________________

We will never know the reliability of the great "mini" under combat conditions other than the hundredth of a percentage that were used by prisons and leo. I bet if the stats were run there is a greater failure rate.
No matter, what does matter is that the mini in all its greatness has never been the primary weapon of any country aside from those tinpot dictatorships from the A Team television program.

Through out history you will find evidence that all the weapons used in war have failed and likely cost someone. Putting up a caricature of a former battle weapon as if it were the original as a comparison is a joke and hardly worth noting except that there is a following that persists on making the claim as though the US would be better armed like BA Baracus or Hannible Hays.

Perhaps a black van would be better than an MRAP for a patrol vehicle.

FRJ
December 6, 2009, 03:07 PM
I have several targets with groups shot during load development on my Mini 14. They are all under 1" but it was done with a 4X scope as I am 65 years young and my eyes are not what they used to be. If I knew how to transfer them from the my pictures section of my computer to this site I would. Can anyone help? If so please send me a PM. Thank You FRJ

67rschev
December 8, 2009, 01:43 AM
Hello All ,
I'm over from the Perfect Union forum and thought i would drop in and say hello . I wanted to jump in on this 'Challenge' and post a few targets for ya . I'm a relatively new Mini owner and just love the feel of these nice little cheap carbines . This target was shot today with my new 581 Ruger Mini 14 Tach series rifle . I did do quite a bit of research before i bought this weapon and knew the early minis were god awful with stringing in the accuracy department , so i opted for one of the new ' hammer forged ' taper barrel model . I also wanted the factory threaded end , with flash suppressor too , cause they seem to help with barrel harmonics , and hence accuracy . The only thing i really didn't like was the synthetic tactical stock , so i immediately swapped out with a nice Birch model , ala ebay , before i even put a round down the chamber . Woood is Goood an I'm a 'plastic' is for pistols kind of guy , and if i wanted a ' black ' gun ...... well I woulda probably wound up with an AR like the rest of you . Did i mention it was ' Cheap ' ? ...... Or should i say inexpensive . Like $597 cheap . Any way , only a few little tweaks , the usual re-torque of the gas block cause Ruger cant seem to get that right , floated the block , worked the trigger over which wasn't all that bad new , and some major polishing of the receiver and bolt .
This target was shot today , at 100 yards using bags , and was well within the 3 minute time limit . I Was using the WW Federal 100 bulk pack 55 gn rounds and was pretty surprised with the results . I did use a 60 $ BEC 4 x optic for this round , but i was just trying to put some rounds on paper to see where i was at . The break in was all done using some Russkie rounds out doors , plinking at clays , dumping mags on unsuspecting inanimate objects and such , so i had no real idea how it was shooting . My measurements from today came in close to the Target program , at 2.828 for the first group low and left . 3 clicks up and 3 to the right , and the second group which i measured at 1.326 . The targeting program showed the first at 2.951 with 2.818moa and second at 1.104 with 1.054moa . I will try with the irons next week with cheapo ammo and post , lets hope my eyes can get it done . After that , onto working up some hand loads and do the two target deal first with the POS scope , and then my tired old eyes . I'm not after the ammo , just out to see what this weapon is capable of and share with the non believers . These are really nice little capable guns , and serve their intended purpose well . Did i mention , U can pick one up for under 600 bucks ?
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/67rschev/DSC07526.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/67rschev/100yd.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/67rschev/DSC07478.jpg

Bye the way , nice little forum you guys got here . Some great info here and hopefully i can contribute . Pic of the Mini is old , wearing a red dot for break in . Its just a hoot to dump 20 rounds at 50 meters , but you can only measure that by a ' minute of a man ' , and when SHTF , thats what we are gonna be measuring .

benzy2
December 8, 2009, 04:55 AM
How much was the stock? You don't add it into your price list. Good groups for sure, especially with bulk ammo. Not sure I would say $600 is inexpensive in this game. In fact its fairly close to the base model AR that has been in comparison in many of these threads. If it is a good deal is up each owner, but in this context I wouldn't put as an overly cheap/inexpensive rifle. In the end if you are happy with how it shoots its a keeper, be it better or worse than what the other guy has.

McBuck
December 8, 2009, 11:34 AM
Hey !! 67rschev !! How much did you pay for that gun again ?!? :evil:
I think I have $700.00 in mine and that includes two factory 20 mags , two aftermkt 30 mags, sling, and a hard case.

SSN Vet
December 8, 2009, 01:13 PM
I don't recall a Mini ever costing a mans life because it didn't go bang when it was supposed to.

Well seeing that the mini has never been selected as a "issue" weapon for combat troops and the AR has hundreds of thousands of combat man hours under it's belt, being carried daily in every American war since Nam, I think this is a pretty meaningless statement.

How many home defense failiures or LEO failures which can be documented as being attributed to a failure of the AR system can you point us to?

Here's an equally meaningfull comparison....

I don't recall a M60 Marlin ever costing a mans life because it didn't go bang when it was supposed to.

Love your Mini and 'ol sell out Bill all you want.... the fact is that the Mini is untested in combat.

67rschev
December 9, 2009, 12:05 AM
How much was the stock? You don't add it into your price list. Good groups for sure, especially with bulk ammo. Not sure I would say $600 is inexpensive in this game. In fact its fairly close to the base model AR that has been in comparison in many of these threads. If it is a good deal is up each owner, but in this context I wouldn't put as an overly cheap/inexpensive rifle. In the end if you are happy with how it shoots its a keeper, be it better or worse than what the other guy has.

Hey Benzy
The stock was 48 bucks plus shipping , and was like brand new in pristine shape , SUPER SUPER tight fit . I wont count that into the price of the gun , cause i turned around and sold that brand new plastic sportster thing on the evilbay for a buy it now of 55 dollars to some GI Joe wanna be . Considered it an even swap , but I'm kinda wishing i would a kept it to play with it , I wanna experiment with some bedding options and i rather screw up some polycarbonate , than my new woody .

I guess I didn't read all the replies close enough , cause i missed the 600 dollar AR or any targets posted by them . If you could post a link to where I could get one . Around these parts a low dollar stripper AR still goes for 800 and up , and when i was weighing my options this summer , they were even more , and were few and far between . All the ones I looked at , were cheesy kits with somebody's left over , worn out , old haggered up parts that didn't work for them so they upgraded , and they all looked like they were cobbled together by 'Joe Dirt' in his trailer house . I even for a brief moment thought of building an AR , but for quality parts , it was looking like 12 bills and up-wards . At that price point , i can drop off my Mini here locally to Accuracy Inc , and get a guaranteed 1 MOA barrel upgrade and work-over , so I would disagree with ya and say 600 bucks IS inexpensive in this game , or at least in my part of the country .

On a side note CDNN has the over priced Ruger Mini 20 round mags for 24 bucks , and the 30 round ( which ruins the balance of the gun IMHO ) for 29 . Thats one gripe i have with the Mini , no inexpensive after market mags that work all though i never tried any of the knockoffs to see for my self . When I shot my posted targets , I was using the 5 round 'California' special mags , they seem to have a better bench balance and feel for any of you Mini shooters .
www.cdnninvestments.com
They also had original Ranch minis for 549 last month .

ECVMatt
December 9, 2009, 12:35 AM
Here is a picture of the Bermuda Regiment

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Bermuda_Regiment_-_Recruit_Camp_1993.jpg/800px-Bermuda_Regiment_-_Recruit_Camp_1993.jpg

Sure looks like they are using Ruger Mini-14's to me. I guess some folks have fielded the Mini.

The track record for the AR has some spots on it as well. It was not perfect when issued and had the backing of the US Government to make it right. I wonder what the Mini would be like with that kind of support?

To me the bottom line is use what you like, but don't try and run down everyone else. Thank god we live in a country where we have so many choices. I have an AR, a Mini, and an AK in my safe. I take them all out and use them as I please. I see things I like about all three and haven't found a single rifle that contains them all, although we are getting closer.

I wish folks wouldn't be so hung up on their pet rifles. This is getting a bit out of hand.

Matt

benzy2
December 9, 2009, 01:12 AM
67rschev,

Sarcasm or not I'll try to respond politely. I do believe krochus posted an AR with surplus parts that would have been in the price point you are talking. Del-ton rifles can be found NIB for about $670 which isn't far off what you paid. I have had very good luck with their products in the past. I had a del-ton build on an RRA stripped lower that I spent $600 on. All the targets for that rifle went with the rifle when Obama prices hit hard but it was an honest 1.5" rifle with the right ammo, with the rare group around or under 1" at 100 yards. Again I can't confirm this anymore as all the targets for that rifle went with it. If you build one today the prices aren't bad for a base model. Stripped lowers can be found under $100 easily. Rifle kits from a few companies run in the $465-$500 price range. I find del-ton again to sell a decent kit for the money. Toss in another $10-$15 for a USGI mag and prices aren't far off the mini. Not saying you can't easily spend 2,3, or 4 times that on an AR, just that a few basic options work out to be in the same ball park as the Mini.

Personally I would like to see some of these "cheesy kits with somebody's left over , worn out , old haggered up parts that didn't work for them so they upgraded , and they all looked like they were cobbled together by 'Joe Dirt' in his trailer house" rifles. Honestly I don't know what you are looking at here, if you mean like this from the factory or the way a user built the rifle. I've looked at a few ARs, bought two so far, and have yet to see any in this state, though I was looking at new parts/rifles. The AR market this summer isn't the current market. There are still people on gunbroker looking to get 2-3x what a rifle is worth (with no bids to boot) but most places are close to or at pre Obama prices. Availability has come back as well. Again I wasn't claiming that the AR is only a $600 rifle, only that a few quality budget options exist to get you in at a price not much out the mini price bracket.

67rschev
December 9, 2009, 09:00 AM
Sorry for the perceived sarcasm , sometimes i go off on these D Miller like rants .

OK , I have never seen any of these low dollar kits that you are referring to . If you say i could do one for ~ 700 , I will believe you . In your defense , I looked at my CDNN mailer after i got off line , and they list a generic knock off AR for 750 , so I'm sure its doable . In my defense , many of these Minis posting targets here are early 188 models and such , and they can be had all day for 300 to 400 depending on condition . Bottom end model to bottom end model , they are still twice the price . I would still like a link .

As for the Joe Dirt rifles i looked at , thats exactly what they were , not talking about factory weapons here . Some left over and used pieces some body threw together poorly to make a couple of riffles . This clown had two of them , and it woulda made you cringe to see these poor excuses for an AR , it made me :barf:

R.W.Dale
December 9, 2009, 09:12 AM
Where are all these cheap minis?


I look and in the past 10 years of shopping every gun shop and show in a 200 mile radius I saw the cheapest used mini I'd ever seen at a Springdale gunshow last week

priced at a super cheap $575


Here's the thing fellas! A month in and not one single qualifying target has been submitted. We have scoped modded minis getting outshot with a milsurp uppered mixmaster AR shooting irons

67rschev
December 9, 2009, 09:27 AM
Where are all these cheap minis?


Here ya go
www.cdnninvestments.com

New for 580 . I havent seen any heavely 'modded' minis post here . Scoped , yeah , modded no . My stock scoped unit went under 2 " . Be paitent , this time of year its tough for people to get out and shoot with weather and hunting . Looks like your the only one to submit an ' AR or Other target '

R.W.Dale
December 9, 2009, 09:34 AM
There hasn't been a stock mini shot yet in this match. One was even "accustrutted"

Either way though yes we shall see.....



I would also like to request that we keep this thread as on topic as possible and not discuss anything but the accuracy angle.

ECVMatt
December 9, 2009, 09:56 AM
Krochus,

I am not sure of the point here. Are trying to prove that AR's are more accurate than Mini's? I don't think anyone would doubt that. I normally follow your line of thinking, but I am not getting this one.

Also in the last ten years if the cheapest used mini you saw was 575 I would say you live in a unique area. A quick check of my local used gun spot lists Mini's from 450 on up depending upon when they were made and what dodahs come with them. Newer 580 series start about 500 and go up from there.

I am confused why AR's would be so cheap in your area, but the "Inferior" Mini's would be so high?

Anyways I will agree with you that the AR are generally More accurate than a Mini 14.

R.W.Dale
December 9, 2009, 12:19 PM
I am confused why AR's would be so cheap in your area, but the "Inferior" Mini's would be so high?

that makes two of us! For some silly reason used rugers get treated as though they're made from gold round these parts. We must have a lot of A team fans or sumpin. From what I see gunbroker prices end up north of 500 as well on actual auctions on used minis.


No the sole reason for this threads existence is because you know as well as I do that about every other week someone with a couple decent 3 shot groups a new mini and a huge superiority complex will start up a thread about how reliable the mini is and how the new 588's aren't inaccurate at all and are just as accurate as an AR.


This thread is to put this assertation to the test , and it's doing a fine job as this thread contains almost all of the mini groups presented on THR to date. Also if you'll read the OP carefully you'll note that the only reason for the other rifles being shot is to simply show that the challange set forth to the mini crowd is indeed achievable

McBuck
December 9, 2009, 01:58 PM
FWIW....Three 190 and 180 series Minis at my local gunstore all listed from $399-$499 DOC. The newer 580's he has list at $629 The Ar's..( Bushmaster, Colt, S&W, Remington, and I think he had a DPMS) all listed for $950-$1450.

JWF III
December 9, 2009, 02:46 PM
In regards to prices...

Only one company manufactures a Mini 14/30/6.8. There is nobody that makes a carbine even similar to the Mini. The next closest would be an M1 Carbine.

Everybody and their mother builds an AR now.

Compare the cost of the Mini to one of the original manufacturers of the AR, and Ruger comes out well ahead. Close to half the price of some.

If Ruger had the competition that the AR manufacturers had, the Mini would have better performance (accuracy), and the price would drop. Same thing with their magazines. If someone built a more reliable aftermarket mag, and sold it for say $15-$20, Ruger would be forced to follow suit.

When it comes to competition, the purchasers will always benefit. AR owners can see this in their weapon. Ruger owners just have to get used to it. Ruger will not improve on performance or price until people are outraged enough to "force" them.

Wyman

BTW- I own 3 Mini-14s. Ranging from a first year 180 series to an early 90s Ranch. I know what they were designed for, and their limitations. For some reason, my experience has been opposite of many Mini owners. My iron-sighted 180 series out shoots my scoped Ranch.

ETA-I have $800 total in the purchase price of all three.

SSN Vet
December 9, 2009, 02:54 PM
Here is a picture of the Bermuda Regiment

I'd be very interested in knowing how much combat experience those boys have and how many rounds they have fired from those mini's in real combat.....

Say what you will about the AR platform.... the U.S. has been deploying it in actual combat for quite some time....

strambo
December 9, 2009, 03:09 PM
Tagged

I'm not a big Mini fan...I think 67rschev can do it though.

carbine85
December 9, 2009, 03:10 PM
Here's a little on the Burmuda Regiment
http://www.bermudaregiment.bm/Home.html#

X-Rap
December 9, 2009, 03:32 PM
The BR probably has an arsenal equal or less than the Texas or California DOC. It would be interesting how they came to adopt the Mini as their Battle Rifle but proves little since their ammo/training budget is likely less than either of the above state agencys and their history shows no combat in recent yrs.
I don't know if any state DOC still use the Mini, I think Co. went to the AR yrs ago.
Some posts lament rugers cruel fate not being adopted in place of the M-16 all I can say is. If wishes were horses then beggers would ride.

frankiestoys
December 9, 2009, 03:51 PM
KROCHUS
I been watching this thread over the past week or more since i posted my targets and i believe as well as many others that you have proven your point (the AR is more accurate) .Now unless a real marksmen comes up with a super accurate mini the best groups have shown 2 1/2 to 3''groups, including my own. I wanted to post this target showing my groups, that my mini was shooting( same day 100 YRDS ) as you can see they are waaaaay off center ( i was re-sighting in my rifle.) You may or may not care but now i think its important to add only to show consistency.It did not meet the challenge ,slow fire and way more then 5 shots.
Now in your defence i have seen Ar's in the price range close to what you are claiming and i will reluctantly admit ,what i paid for my mini $850 OTD. I have seen AR's for $749 (centerfire) to $999(G.MT) for a basic platform starter. I like the AR's but im not getting rid of my mini and and for what these guns (at least the newer series) group they are decent reliable carbines.You can argue against that all you want but it won't convince any of the current model mini owners that there guns are s..t that is just your view and you are intitled to it, isn't that the way the HIGHROAD works.

benzy2
December 9, 2009, 04:05 PM
Sorry for the perceived sarcasm , sometimes i go off on these D Miller like rants .

OK , I have never seen any of these low dollar kits that you are referring to . If you say i could do one for ~ 700 , I will believe you . In your defense , I looked at my CDNN mailer after i got off line , and they list a generic knock off AR for 750 , so I'm sure its doable . In my defense , many of these Minis posting targets here are early 188 models and such , and they can be had all day for 300 to 400 depending on condition . Bottom end model to bottom end model , they are still twice the price . I would still like a link .

As for the Joe Dirt rifles i looked at , thats exactly what they were , not talking about factory weapons here . Some left over and used pieces some body threw together poorly to make a couple of riffles . This clown had two of them , and it woulda made you cringe to see these poor excuses for an AR , it made me
No worries about my sarcasm remark. I have troubles online telling when people are being sincere and when they are being sarcastic. In most of these threads I cynically assume its sarcasm.

If you check www.Del-ton.com they sell kits that include everything but the stripped lower and a magazine starting at $465. Model 1 sells kits in the same price range. I know there are a couple other places with kits in the same price range as well. Del-ton also sells complete rifles. Their website has them for a bit of a premium but if you go to www.aimsurplus.com they are selling their carbine model for $670. Elsewhere on the internet you can find Olympic Arms rifles for sub $700 as well, though they have been tougher to find in stock since the Obama rush. As I said the Del-ton rifles and kits I have seen will put them in the at 1-2MOA using standard handguards, a carbine stock, and a standard trigger. Good accuracy with plenty of potential left through a fixed stock, better trigger, and float tube.

I did see the new CDNN flier and did see their base ARs were a bit more than their base Minis. Also so the Ruger Mini mags for a fairly reasonable price. I will say the old Minis aren't a fair representation of today's Minis.

The used market is tough to compare. I haven't seen any $300 minis in my area. If that is the going rate where you are it certainly adds a new twist to the decision but here they are few and far between and when you do find one they are hardly below the cost of a new rifle. That said I know the used market is variable by location so its almost impossible to say those aren't the prices you see on a daily basis. If I could find one for $300, old or not, I would probably give it a try, do most of the inexpensive and home mods, and see how it does.

That is too bad about the AR's you saw junked together. It is why I don't like to buy AR's from gun shows. It is too hard to tell who made the upper or what parts were used. While you can easily see wear or poorly assembled parts its almost impossible to know if the product is as stated. Its the down side to a rifle being as module as the AR.

Matt-J2
December 9, 2009, 10:03 PM
here it is for $660
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=147682841
You mini guys don't seem to be very savvy shoppers

You failed to mention the added costs of shipping, transfer fees, and those oh so basic shooting devices: sights. While it's not going to jump to $1k or anything, it's going to get up near $800 I suspect.
I feel they're worth every cent of that $800, too, but you really should mention the extra costs that come along just to get the thing in basic shooting condition.
Round here, I've seen used minis run the gamut from $400 to same as new prices($650+). I'm also not sure why they're so much, as I've seen a rare few ARs come close to that used as well. Not that I see many used ARs at all.


Too bad I own neither of them, the challenge sounds like fun. Closest I have is a 15" bbl Encore pistol in .223, but that's not quite the same thing!

rizbunk77
December 9, 2009, 11:10 PM
Accuracy is fine but what the hunter should be more concerned with is precision. With regard to precision, I don't think anyone would want to stand 200 yards out front of a practiced, determined shooter possessing a cold barreled mini-14.
Our LEO kept a log book of all the different groups he shot with with his mini. Each page was devoted to a particular load. These were 3-5 shot groups going usually about 1-1.5 inches at 50 yards. Very consistent with what has been posted so far. Keep in mind this challenge is really measuring the following things in the following order:
1. Individual Marksmanship
2. The rifle's ability to maintain a steady POI with a barrel that is getting constantly hotter.

ROGER4314
December 9, 2009, 11:13 PM
A mini 14 shooting against an AR-15? Holy smokes..........that's just not going to work! I've owned a pile of both of them and have been a 200,300,600 yard match shooter with the AR. The AR will smoke the Mini ESPECIALLY since you specify that all rounds have to be fired in a short period. That scrawny mini barrel has a mind of its own when it gets hot.

Accuracy wise, I'd place the Mini-14 in with the AK-47. I like both rifles but competing against an AR? That's nonsense.

The Mini is a cool little rifle but I wouldn't waste the ammo in a contest between the AR and the Mini-14.

Flash

Golden_006
December 9, 2009, 11:27 PM
I was hoping to see more targets and less fighting.

I saw a post here that said any rifle and some targets goes, so I figure I'd post my Romanian SKS that I shot tonight. This is the first time I fired a rifle like this. The first I shot a gun was in Junior High when I shot a 22 and a shotgun that my dad loaded for me however upstate. I shot a magnum in college but that is arleady 10 years ago. The guy at the gun store who sold me the bullets, while I was on my way to the range, showed me how to load the thing. The range I went to is only 25 yards long . . .

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5855/skstargetgroup.th.jpg (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/skstargetgroup.jpg/)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5053/sksontable.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/sksontable.jpg/)


PS - I'm sure the Mini is a fine rifle. Any gun good enough for Hannibal and Murdoch is good enough for me.

essayons21
December 10, 2009, 12:00 AM
The point of this post is not to prove that the AR is more accurate than the Mini. Everyone with a half a functioning brain cell already knows that.

The point is to see how bad Mini's actually are, or depending on your point of view, how good. I see alot of Mini owners talking about how accurate Mini's can be, and I have never seen any proof of it. I know they are light, handy, and reliable, but IMHO 2.5 MOA is pretty crappy for a modern rifle. Hell I can do that with my $300 Romy AK on a good day.

Krochus posted an offer for Mini owners to win 2 free boxes of ammo just by holding 2.5" at 100 yards. If I had a Mini, I would be all over this challenge. If I can't do it in 2 boxes of ammo, it's probably not going to happen. If I do it in less, FREE AMMO! I think that's something we should all appreciate, especially nowadays.

For pete's sake people, if you have a Mini, stop making excuses and go out and shoot!

Avenger29
December 10, 2009, 12:04 AM
The only reason this thread exists is, IIRC, that we have Mini owners claiming that the Mini-14 is "just as good" as an AR-15, even in the accuracy department.

So, Krochus asked people to post targets of these Minis that shot 2.5" groups. And lets, admit it, 2.5" groups are not a spectacular indication of accuracy.

What resulted was a few targets being posted and a lot of whining about "it isn't FAIR" and "Butbutbut my Mini's 'combat accurate'/'accurate enough'" instead of keeping their mouth shut or posting targets.

icanthitabarn
December 10, 2009, 12:42 AM
I am gonna take up the offer this Sat. 188 RR, cold outside or not. (will be). Made me a strut, and put a never used red dot on. Still have use of peep, and if by luck, the thing shoots well I will post both groups. Thanks for the offer cause it got me educated about the tri-rail setup. Now I got a tri tri-rail.:)

ECVMatt
December 10, 2009, 12:52 AM
"instead of keeping their mouth shut"....

This is when the High Road becomes the Low Road. I am out of this one guys.

Avenger29
December 10, 2009, 01:31 AM
Too bad I own neither of them, the challenge sounds like fun. Closest I have is a 15" bbl Encore pistol in .223, but that's not quite the same thing!

Shoot it and post a target. Please.

"instead of keeping their mouth shut"....

This is when the High Road becomes the Low Road. I am out of this one guys.

Hey, I'm just tired of 6 or 7 pages of excuses.

R.W.Dale
December 10, 2009, 02:29 AM
STOP!

Dangit! I'll freely admit that I may not disagree with what's been said but darn it for this thread to work at all I have to keep it unlocked for another month and a half. Up till this point we may not have bowled straight down the center of the lane but we've managed to keep this ball out of the gutter, lets try to keep it that way!

SO PLEASE TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC for crying out loud!:cuss:

Matt-J2
December 10, 2009, 09:37 AM
Shoot it and post a target. Please.
If I make it out this weekend, then I'll attempt the challenge and post pics of the targets. :)

McBuck
December 10, 2009, 09:37 AM
hmm... I only see one target from the AR folks.:scrutiny: and that was from the initator of the challenge. Even that target took Krochus eighteen days, and that was from the challenger. As a rule it takes time to plan a trip for some selfish "me time". A lot is going on right now with people.
Thank you Krochus. While you and I have differing opinions, I appreciate you calling the thread into order. I will post my 100yd attempt as soon as I can get to the range. I must note though, that you have given a very liberal time limit.
The anxious board members here are mostly part of the "McDonalds Generation" and want theirs through the drive thru window. Patience is a virture that not many have, and a large dose of patience is what is needed from us all right now. The crush of two holidays, and the urgency of deer season will keep quite a few people from the range, save those people that live in an absolute rural setting and can shoot right out the back door. The Mini, may or may not be able to meet the challenge guidelines, but I am willing to bet that Mini owners will post plenty of targets as time permits. I am sure there will be some impressive targets, and perhaps even some surprised Mini owners; some may not like their surprise, and some may love it. But again, thank you krochus for sending a message to the board that we need to keep it an adult disagreement, and not an adolescent argument.

67rschev
December 10, 2009, 10:12 AM
Benzy
Thanks for the info . At that price point I might piece one together and sneak it into my man-cave without the wife finding out . Seems like it would be a decent base model to build onto if I decide to take on another toy project .

Frankiestoys
Not a bad groups at all ! Sounds like your Mini is relatively new , so dont fret . I felt like mine didn't really start shooting consistently until I hit around the 400 round mark . I'm sure the production tolerances at Ruger are iffy at best , and the lands needed to get worn in a little for consistent chambering of the round . Mine still prefers a reactively short OCL round , as in that last outing the bulk 55 gr out-shot some 69 gr factory PRVI match rounds I shot at 75 . I haven't checked head-space , so we will see . I still am fighting a first round low and left issue , so I know when I'm manually charging the first round , its not the same as when the gas system loads the riffle . There again the more use , the better and more consistent it will become .

Strambo
Thanks for the vote of confidence ! I have all ready proved that the riffle is capable enough and CAN shot what the OP said couldn't be done . He wanted 2.5 in and i came in under 2 . I guess it just now comes down to if I'm a good enough rifleman to get the job done . Problem is , the only riffle Ive ever really worked with and shot , other than some 22 plinkers , with opens is my fathers ( hopefully soon to be mine !) Garand , and you could train a monkey to shoot a M1 accurately with those irons . So we will see , no pun intended . If I cant , it only proves the OP is a better marksman than I , and not that the Mini isn't capable of shooting to his criteria . There are many other rifleman that i have seen that indeed can do it easily , but they are just not interested in getting into just another Mini vs AR pissing match with someone and their my toy is better and cooler than your toy complex . Just for the record YES , I agree with most of you , an AR is a more accurate weapon platform than a mini . Nobrainer

2dumb2kwit
December 14, 2009, 04:41 PM
Hello all. I'm new here. I followed a link from the perfect union forum, mainly because I'm nosey. LOL

I don't have any targets to post, that qualify, but I'd be glad to share with y'all what my mini has done. I'm not worried about the challenge....I'm just here to share some info.

My mini is stock out of the box, with the exception of a cheap 3-9x40 scope. It's the so called "tactical" model. (18" barrel w/flash-hider.)
This target was shot at 100 yds, from a bench, using my ammo bag as a rest. 5 shots, about 5 seconds apart. Ammo was Wolf military classic. Believe it or not, that's what my mini liked the best, out of 8 kinds of ammo that I've tried. LOL Go figure.

EDIT: oops....it's a 16.12" barrel.

2dumb2kwit
December 14, 2009, 04:45 PM
Oh...just to clarify.....this is my best group.
Typical groups run 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yds. This is with me shooting.(I'm not very good.) Since that target, my mini killed that cheap scope, and I haven't really done any "target" shooting with it since then.

cfendley
December 14, 2009, 05:06 PM
I just traded my mini a while back because it wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside. My eyes arent good enough for that at 100 yards and open sights, if I can talk my brother into doing it on the next nice day I'll try to get more AR targets for the thread.

Art Eatman
December 14, 2009, 05:33 PM
A standard variety, non-top-of-line AR does what for MOA? Two? Three? I'm not talking about stuff like a CMMG complete upper for $600 or $700 or thereabouts. More like the original Colts that first came out before the A2.

Those generally compare to the Mini. And as I've noted many times, the Mini is nowhere near being a benchrest target rifle. It's a hellaciously good hunting rifle. Works real good on jackrabbits and coyotes, where the reliability of the first shot's POI is important.

I'm on my fifth AR, now. And, yup, a CMMG complete upper along with the A2 upper. Shoots good.

I've had four Minis; none on hand right now. No real reason; just worked out that way.

But if I wuz calling coyotes, either a Mini or an AR would work as good as my Sako .243 or my Ruger .223 or my Rem700Ti 7mm08 or my Weatherby '06.

And none of them would work as benchrest competition shooters.

For all that I've been messin' with guns for over 65 years, I save my emotional attachments for friends, women and dogs. Not guns. A gun is just a tool. If it serves my intended purpose, I'm happy. If it doesn't, I don't own it and don't worry about it.

And I guess that any other comment about it and I'd have to ban myself.

kanook
December 14, 2009, 06:08 PM
I've been trying to find a slickside carrier for my upper do to this comparision with. That way the pencil thin upper barrel against the pencil thin barrel mini.

ILikeLead
December 15, 2009, 02:05 PM
After reading this thread, I brought the mini to the "range" last weekend with other guns, just to see what looking through that peep and across that front post would be at 100 yards. My front post covers 12 inches in width at 100 yards. That's simple extrapolation. How in the WORLD can one shoot a 2 inch group with a 1 foot bead at 100 yards? I considered using the corner of the front post just to see if I could be consistent and the best I could do was about 5 inch groups.... uhh patterns.

I would really have to appreciate anyone who could shoot a 2 inch group with any iron sights at 100 yards...

Carry On,
Corey

R.W.Dale
December 15, 2009, 03:04 PM
After reading this thread, I brought the mini to the "range" last weekend with other guns, just to see what looking through that peep and across that front post would be at 100 yards. My front post covers 12 inches in width at 100 yards. That's simple extrapolation. How in the WORLD can one shoot a 2 inch group with a 1 foot bead at 100 yards? I considered using the corner of the front post just to see if I could be consistent and the best I could do was about 5 inch groups.... uhh patterns.

I would really have to appreciate anyone who could shoot a 2 inch group with any iron sights at 100 yards...

Carry On,
Corey
You focus on the entire front sights placement in the target and not so much the sight top itself.

IE look around the edges of the front sight post and make sure you have the same amount of "target" overlapping each side


I've been trying to find a slickside carrier for my upper do to this comparision with. That way the pencil thin upper barrel against the pencil thin barrel mini.
__________________

How thick is a mini Barrel? My AR's barrel is only .680" to .60" under the handguard and a mere .584" forward of the FSB


ART EATMAN

standard variety, non-top-of-line AR does what for MOA? Two? Three? I'm not talking about stuff like a CMMG complete upper for $600 or $700 or thereabouts. More like the original Colts that first came out before the A2.


A standard variety, non-top-of-line AR does what for MOA? Two? Three? I'm not talking about stuff like a CMMG complete upper for $600 or $700 or thereabouts. More like the original Colts that first came out before the A2.


So far the only AR that's been shot in this challange is a COLT USGI 603 upper and from what I've seen thus far the MINI's ARE NOT comparable

kanook
December 15, 2009, 03:20 PM
.562 from the chamber slope forward.

haldir
December 15, 2009, 03:43 PM
My Mini-14 shoots good enough.

msgsummit
December 15, 2009, 07:59 PM
Hey all,
I really have to ask this question...... is 2.5 MOA really considered mediocre accuracy? I do own a mini....one of the 580 series with the skinny barrel. I am sure my shoot groups are probably in the 3-4 MOA range, which is also about the size of the groups I get out of my Garand, and probably what I shoot with the M4 Uncle Sam allows me to shoot. All with Iron sights. Lord knows I ain't the best shot in the world but seriously....2.5 MOA mediocre?

X - Man
December 15, 2009, 09:02 PM
msgsummit; You are asking the right type of questions.

For a detailed discussion on the matter, take a look here;
" http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218&page=1 " by "Molon". AR Discussions; The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups (plus - The Texas Sharpshooter - page 10). It was started in 4/2006, and is STILL running.

It talks about the method of using average mean radius to determine actual shot accuracy, based on statistics. It's the method used by the US Military to set accuracy standards for its ammo.

I use this method, AMR, to determine how well I'm doing with my rifle and ammo.

Link fixed.

ECVMatt
December 15, 2009, 09:07 PM
I saw Tactical Impact the other night and the guy who was the former SEAL was sighting an M-4 with an Aimpoint. He shot a group at 100 yards about the size of his open hand, about 4 or 5 inches. He stated, "Now this rifle is ready for combat".

I am trying to go to the range tomorrow. I am going to bring my 580 mini and a Eagle Arms ER-15 A2. It is a standard barrel with no dodads or wigets attached. If it works out I will post some pictures tomorrow.

masterPsmith
December 17, 2009, 05:49 PM
Well I decided to take up the challenge. Went out and shot a little while ago. Both targets from bench @ 100 yards, 5 rounds each and both targets in less than three minutes. I used Winchester white box 5.56 55gr ammo as I did not want to burn up my match ammo. I heard of this challenge from over on perfectunion.com and that is where I am from as well as firearmstalk.com.
I hope I will be welcome here as one of you.

Below are todays results:

Jim......................

Avenger29
December 17, 2009, 05:54 PM
Great!

67rschev
December 17, 2009, 06:19 PM
Nice work Jim , Great to see a true marksman with a mini step up to the plate .

R.W.Dale
December 17, 2009, 06:41 PM
First off welcome to THR


Please share with us more details about the rifle and modifications and the results.

masterPsmith
December 17, 2009, 06:58 PM
It is a 186 series, standard stainless Mini-14. Mods are as following: ACG barrel strut and clamps, ACG .060 gas port bushing, ACG Match Trigger which breaks @ around 3 pounds, front and rear buffers, Williams Foolproof rear target sight with the front sight narrowed to .070", the muzzle brake is an ACG prototype, a lot of polished stainless for bling, Harris Bi-Pod, barrel is a 1:7 twist. It is sub MOA when scoped. All work was done by me in my shop (formally Alvord Custom Guns). I have been smithing and accurizing the Mini-14 platform sense back in the 70s. Although semi-retired now, I have been a gunsmith for over 43 years. Glad to be aboard here on the highroad......................


Jim..................

waterhouse
December 17, 2009, 07:31 PM
Nice shooting masterP.

So, is that a winner for the ammo?

R.W.Dale
December 17, 2009, 07:43 PM
It would appear to be the case. I'll type up something more detailed and update the leaderboard when I get home as I'm on an iPhone now.

McBuck
December 17, 2009, 09:15 PM
From your OP Krochus, "match expires 2-1-10" That would give some other Mini shooters the opportunity to match or beat masterPsmith's shot strings. I am more than happy for him, and doubt that I could, but I do want the opportunity to get to the range and see what I can do. The deer season is still in here in Georgia, so most of my free time is spent deer hunting. The weather hasd not been real agreeable either, but the rules state that the "match expires 2-21-10"
If you want to close it to the ammo , then that is fine by me....masterPsmith deserves it, but give some other Mini shooters the chance to prove what the Mini can do.

frankiestoys
December 17, 2009, 09:27 PM
masterPsmith
NICE, VERY NICE IM GLAD WE HAVE A WINNER AND SOME RESPECT FOR THE MINI HAS BEEN EARNED.

PS. and its not even a 580 :what:

R.W.Dale
December 18, 2009, 03:08 AM
Again congratulations on your achievement masterPsmith that's certainly a fine example of shooting AND gunsmithing if ever I saw one. Fine work Fine work!


As I said I would do at the beginning of this match I owe the Ruger Mini crowd an apology for any and all derogatory comments I have made towards the ruger mini series of firearms. They can indeed be accurate with proper tuning.

As to the official onTarget numbers and leaderboard update

Like everything you've submitted thus far masterPsmith your target scoring was top notch. Matching the computer program within just a few thousandths. Officially coming in at a very fine indeed 1.369" average

Whip
December 18, 2009, 10:36 AM
A mini can be made to shoot pretty good. With a few low cost mods. Mine does not have a front site I made my own flash supresser and did not incorperrate one on it.This is what mine will do at 100 yards with a scope. The barrel was cooled between groups. The black center is 1". Not as good as some AR-15s but good enough for a 29 year old pencil thin barrel. A good coyote gun but not a target rifle.
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/tnwhip/5-5shotgroups.jpg

HarleyFixer
December 18, 2009, 10:42 AM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2634/4195382080_27466a107a_s.jpg
I don't have time to go to the range but here is a group I shot with my Mini14 this summer at 100 yds after installing barrel strut. So yes there are some that can shoot but not without some work.
This group was shot from a solid rest with a 10X target scope so it does not qualify but shows what can be done. BTW that is a .8025 group if you can't read the calipers.

wyksta
December 18, 2009, 07:37 PM
I was going to ask what the OP intended to accomplish - then I read a few of the posts in this thread. It seems no matter the brand, especially with firearms, there will always be those that take up the banner and drop their senses and maturity. It could have been a football or baseball forum, maybe even a Chevy or Ford forum, the end result is the same; we humans can be exceedingly small-minded, especially when we put our minds to it.

X - Man
December 18, 2009, 09:02 PM
The original poster krochus, has provided a forum for targets to be submitted and reviewed. It allows realistic comparisons to be made, and from those comparisons, lessons learned and applied. For some of us there has been a lot of ideas exchanged between us.

I have another set of targets which is being set to krochus as a submission for the contest. If posted, the target info may be useful for other shooters.

There may be others that can shoot better than me, but my abilities as shooter have been improved by participating in this forum. The toughest competitor I face is usually myself.

masterPsmith
December 19, 2009, 11:13 AM
Well, after having shot and posted my results, I hope it does not stop there. I would like to see a lot more Mini and AR shooters get out there and shoot, then post. I see many posts saying what they can do on both sides, but don't see them posting any targets to back it up. Does not matter if it is a Mini, AR or other .223/5.56 semi auto, would like to see more participation..................

Jim.....................

R.W.Dale
December 19, 2009, 01:21 PM
This match has been great, but it's also getting large ad rather unweildly in terms of post count. I intend to replace the current ar vs mini match with a free for all winter 2010 rapid fire match. It will be just like the current match with the exclusion of a shorter time limit of two minutes and specific classes for scoped vs irons and caliber. I invite all you fellas from perfectunion to participate.

Now I'm not picking on anyone with the shorter time limit, My reasoning it's just that when shooting my submissions I noticed that 3 minutes for 10 shots really wasn't that "rapid". SO I''l but it up before you guys.

A Stay with the 3 minute time limit and shoot against bolt actions and the like

B or go to 2 minutes and pretty much make this a semiauto and milsurp (strippers) only match

chuwee81
December 19, 2009, 01:41 PM
just shot the ar this past tuesday with red dot and grip bipod and sandbag. IT IS A FEAT to shoot that small of a group with just iron sights. I used the 4 MOA red dot and the results are just that: 4-5" group at 100 yds, 3-3.5" at 50 yds - with the red dot and iron. the target is as big as the front sight post at 100 yds (in my defense - it's only the 2nd time out with the platform and it was windy and cold as well - we Houstonians aren't used to cold that much, especially when one ignore the weather forecast and didn't bring a pair of gloves).

So :
1. I agree about the quote about tactical impact thing: 4 MOA red dot is good combat accuracy at 100 yds. It easily covers the human heart or head.
2. It's VERY HARD to go under 2.5 MOA with just iron sight at 100 yds. Heck i couldn't even do it at the 50 yd line.
3. the contest seems to put up the shooter to the challenge and not the platform to its full potential. It'll be interesting to see the scoped challenge results.
4. I need to go out shooting more :)

FRJ
December 19, 2009, 06:15 PM
Here is a photo of a group I fired with my mini off the bench at 114 yards. It was fired in a timed fire manner to see if poi changed as the barrel heated. It falls well within your limits BUT it was shot with a 4X scope as I'm 66 years young and can't see 100yard targets well enough to get good accuracy.This is however what a mini can do.

FRJ
December 19, 2009, 06:20 PM
The target I posted is a group of 20 shots at 114 yards shot from a mini 14 at a high rate of fire and grouped 1.438" It was shot with a 4X scope since at my age I cant see well enough to shoot accurately at 100 yards with iron sights. Sorry it doesn't qualify for your challenge but it does show how a mini can shoot. FRJ

McBuck
December 19, 2009, 10:35 PM
OLD GUYS RULE !!!
I love to see what old guys can do with a rifle. Dosen't matter the gun, I am always impressed to see how experience always triumphs over bravado. I am just glad I didn't run my mouth against you FRJ :D

frankiestoys
December 19, 2009, 10:56 PM
FRJ
Nice shooting ! As krochus said ,and many others will agree, the mini new or old , young guys or not so young. The mini 14 has shown to be a darn good rifle.
Great job to everyone who posted or just got out there and tried.I think this was fun, educational and at time's entertaining.
Lets all remember we all have a common intrest and a genuine love for firearms .
frankiestoys

Darth AkSarBen
December 25, 2009, 01:27 AM
Great job FRJ. I've been shooting since I was 8 back in 1961. Started out with a .22 single shot. Just a post of a Saiga (made by Izhmash, in Russia - same place the AK-47 and other variants made) in the .308 Winchester caliber. This is a Kalashnikov design with a long stroke piston and 3 locking lug breech. 16" barrel and 5 shots at an old Pizza Hut box at 100 yards. When shooting (took less than 2 minutes) I wasn't even sure the bullets were hitting the cardboard. Used a 3x9 x 32 scope. When i walked up on the target I found out why I couldn't see the holes.

http://vernsdidj.com/pictures/guns/Saiga308/308_saiga_rem150psp.jpg

This is a testament to the ability of the Kalashnikov design when shot with proper ammunition and optics and in the right caliber.
It should also show that the Piston action system is a good competition to the DI systems of the AR-15 Eugene Stoner design. I'm looking at getting an AR-15 but in 6.8 SPC II and converting it to Piston action, Adams Arms, just as soon as I get the rifle.

VeT|Us
December 25, 2009, 03:36 PM
Best group last outing with my 580-series with accustrut 2 added: 0.27 MOA.

Even cut out the target and keep it in my drawer.

icanthitabarn
January 17, 2010, 01:49 PM
Well thanks to krochus for motivation and learning of the homemade strut. Hope there is a red dot class in future challenges. Went out yesterday, but only made it to 50 yds. The SOAG is shooting fantastically. I had a little problem with the CTD struts, (3) :) and ended up retapping all 24 holes and using larger SS fasteners. I now imagine that the rig is even more solid. Had room for a laser too. I need to get a new photohost, as photobucket wont let me sign in or add pics. Lets just say, I think 3/4 inch moa is possible at 50 yds and hopefully further. ( doubt it). I am sticking with heavy bullets, but even some Wolf stuff shot way better than ever. I even got motivated to reload for the gun.

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