[Labyrinth666]

Basically what the title states, which do you prefer? Or I guess if you prefer some crazy rocket shell with an acid-spitting cobra inside go ahead and post that too...

[RugerBob]

Buck shot. Covers a wide pattern in hallways and what not. I pertty much just have #8 shot for that purpose.

[RSVP2RIP]

I suppose it depends alot on where you live. Most slugs will go a long way even if it goes through someone. If you live on a farm down south then thats fine, maybe even preferable as slugs have a reputable one shot stop record.. But being in the land of satan (Illinois) you had best only be shooting at someone who is a threat (read in your house). In that instance, buckshot might be a better choice. There are several loads that will all but guarente that all the pelets will land in a torso, and overpenetration will be less of a concern. Bird shot of any size is for emegencies only and I wouldn't use it unless it was all I had.

[JamisJockey]

Buck shot. Covers a wide pattern in hallways and what not. I pertty much just have #8 shot for that purpose.


Because you don't have to aim a shotgun, right?
:banghead:
Birdshot doesn't penetrate enough to stop a threat reliably. #8 is not buckshot. That is birdshot.



For the OP:
I use 00 Buckshot. At HD ranges, the small sized grouping of buck offers the biggest chances of stopping a threat immediately.

[wnycollector]

00 buck in my shotgun with two low recoil slugs on the butt cuff...just in case.

[Nugilum]

12 count 00 Buck

[chuckusaret]

I load my HD 12 ga with a BB chambered followed by 7 slugs in the magazine. Just me and my wife and walls can be repaired, but I don't intend to miss the BG on the first round fired.

[mgkdrgn]

Buckshot ... I personally like #1.

The problem with slugs is that your neighbors won't like pickin them out of THEIR walls (pets, spouses, children, whatever) after your HD encounter.

[Fred Fuller]

Get some basic defensive shotgun training first. There are no hardware solutions to software problems.

Choose your ammo loadout based on your individual circumstances. Live in an apartment in an urban area? That will influence what you choose to use. Same as if you live in the middle of several acres in the country with the closest neighbor a half mile away.

Our situation here approximates the latter moreso than the former. We keep the house guns loaded with full velocity 00 buckshot, and keep Brenneke KO slugs in the Sidesaddles. Except of course for the gun my wife prefers, which she carries when we go to visit her parents in western NC. They get the occasional nuisance bear up there, and her 870 is loaded with Brennekes with four more in the Sidesaddle.

It's a decision that needs to be based on personal training, experience, patterning and experimentation, not advice off the WWW. YOU are responsible for the results of your actions, not the anonymous strangers who gave you advice, whether it was good or bad.

fwiw,

lpl

[AcceptableUserName]

Good ol' 00 buck. However, Slugs are preferable at ranges that are no longer labelled "self-defense" and suddenly become "prison-time".

[benEzra]

Be aware that using slugs for HD is like using .45-70; slugs will penetrate some things that even .308 won't. Just something to be aware of.

[Titan6]

Slugs work well for us but they are not for everybody. Where can I find some of the shells with the baby cobras inside? They sound awesome!

[snooperman]

The wound channel and hence trauma to the body is much greater with buckshot within the confines of a home. Outside at 40-100 yards, that is where the slug is supreme. Because of its greater mass it will have greater carrying power at those distances and buckshot will lose velocity quickly beyond 30-40 yards and the shot pattern will be too large for effective use.

[-v-]

I prefer some crazy rocket shell with an acid-spitting cobra inside. That is naturally the best SD loading ever made. Just make sure to feed 'em a mouse or two every other week.

Seriously though, I alternate between 10 pellet 000 3" magnums or 15 pellet 00 3" magnums. Yes, they stop being "fun" to shoot after 3-4 shells out of an M500, but I figure in an HD situation, the amount of fun that a load will be will be the last of my concerns. I also keep the last two rounds of my 7 round tube with a 1oz and 1 3/8 oz slug. I figure if after 75 pellets of 00 buck COM someone is still coming at me, its time to up the ante, and hope sheer blunt trauma stops 'em.

[Mike J]

I keep a little 20 gauge loaded with #3 buckshot-I figure at home defense distances it would mess someones world up & be less likely to overpenetrate.

[Dee]

I personally can't decide between 00 buck and slugs so I load with some of each and keep some to spare in the shell holder on my Knoxx stock. I do live on a lot of land, if I had neighbors real close by then I would probabley just stick with buckshot, maybe even lighter that 00.

[Youngster]

I like #4 buckshot for an indoor load, I've tested 4 buck against typical interior walls and all kinds of other media and I'm convinced that even if does somehow exit my place it ain't going to have much "juice" left.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

I like #4 buckshot for an indoor load, I've tested 4 buck against typical interior walls and all kinds of other media and I'm convinced that even if does somehow exit my place it's going to have much "juice" left.
I think you meant it's NOT going to have much "juice" left.

I know, I know.
Picky, picky.
That's why I'm an inspector.

[brandnew]

Unless you've got hallways or rooms that are more than 30 yards long, I'm not even sure why you're considering slugs. Those suckers will go through multiple layers of sheetrock and plywood.

As a rule your shot will spread 1" for every yard travelled. Buckshot tends to hold together better than birdshot over distances. So even if you did have a hallway that was 30 yards long (seriously?), your shot pattern would only be around 30" in diameter. Now that's just slightly bigger than human sized and you're a heck of a lot more likely to actually hit your assailant with that than with something that is 1" in diameter. Remember, you're assailant will be moving (gasp!) more than a paper target.

For more rural areas, a lot of professionals recommend #4 buck or 00 buck because it's physically effective and less likely to hurt your non-existent neighbors. If you live in an apt building, you need to seriously consider your situation and figure out where that shot is likely to land when/if you miss with any of your shot. Remember you DON'T want to hurt your neighbor sleeping nextdoor or their cat.

There's more to this than just going to the store and picking up some ammo. So, my recommendation to you is to examine your home and imagine some scenarios where you'd need to fire your shotgun on an assailant to stop the lethal threat. There are two things you need to figure out:

1. What will my shotgun's pattern be at the distances I am considering?
2. What is the background beyond where my assailant might be in different situations?

Once you figure out #1, you need to go to the range with different shotshells and try them through your shotgun at those distances. Get a sense of the patterning to expect from different ammo at those distances. Then use #2 to make a decision on ammo based on what humans/animals or other highly valuable things lay beyond your assailant. If there are humans beyond those walls, then you might consider #8 birdshot. It will still do the job of inflicting simultaneous nerve shock.

And as Lee Lapin said, take a shotgun course. Even a 1-dayer will be really beneficial.

[Labyrinth666]

Oh, I also forgot to include the option of "less-lethal" things i.e. Rock salt, bean bags, etc. What is your opinion on those type of things?

[Titan6]

Oh, I also forgot to include the option of "less-lethal" things i.e. Rock salt, bean bags, etc. What is your opinion on those type of things?

Rock salt is great on driveways for melting snow. Bean bags make good chairs for adolescents or toys for toddlers; although at one time people collected bean bags in the shape of animals. Police use less lethal options because they have the advantage of training and often numbers. Unless you are going to have six of your buddies jump on an intruder and give him a good stomping stick with what works.

[SnakeLogan]

Most slugs will go a long way even if it goes through someone.

Brenekke's and sabots yes, but regular rifled slugs no. They only penetrate 12 - 15 inches.

I prefer 00 buckshot any day over slugs. All the penetration you need to reach the CNS on a large attacker (16+ inches in ballistic gel) with much more surface area (increasing the likelihood you'll hit the CNS).

[okespe04]

I shot a pumpkin with a 3" slug today. Wow! there was nothing left of the pumpkin. I keep 00 buck in my hd shotgun. That stuff is nasty!

[JamisJockey]

Oh, I also forgot to include the option of "less-lethal" things i.e. Rock salt, bean bags, etc. What is your opinion on those type of things?

Junk Junk and Junk.
Lethal force is lethal force.

I keep a little 20 gauge loaded with #3 buckshot-I figure at home defense distances it would mess someones world up & be less likely to overpenetrate.

Don't "figure" nothing. Do some penetration testing and patterning with your chosen ammunition. I figure works if you're doing arithmetic.

[Mike J]

I did pattern it Jamis Jockey. I was lazy about the pentration testing though. I let someone else do it for me. www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm
There was another article showing this load being tested for wall penetration but I can't seem to find it right now.
BTW the patterning & the research were both part of the figuring

[tactikel]

Never shoulder a shotgun unless you are in mortal danger, rock salt and beanbags are worse than useless, if the BG is armed he will surely be compelled to shoot you, if he is not, you will be sued "my client was grievously wounded by a 12 ga beanbag and will never be able to lead a normal life again." Slugs are if you dont have a neighbor within 1/2 mile, all else is buckshot. If you ARE in mortal danger use #4 buckshot in an apartment, 00 for a house in the 'burbs. Take a few minutes and look and see how each shot would end up- down each hallway, etc. You really dont want to hurt a neighbor. Remember if you pull the trigger, justified or not, your life will never be the same.

[Labyrinth666]

I know this isn't very likely, but 'what if' questions are entertaining to me, anyway, what if they are wearing body armor? Will buckshot penetrate?

[Kangspec]

i will say no way in hell. however the impact might stop him or slow him down.

i dont know.....armor? lol you live inside bank?

[Cosmoline]

Standard deer slugs are perfect for home defense. They're soft lead and flatten pretty good, plus they experience a lot of drop very quickly. I'm not convinced that buckshot is more effective, or that it will penetrate less.

[psyopspec]

Those suckers [slugs] will go through multiple layers of sheetrock and plywood.

As will 00 buck, .22LR, 9mm, .45, etc etc... Do some googling around for penetration testing. I'd post links, but my internet is heavily restricted right now.

You're still going to be responsible for anything coming out of the muzzle of your gun. Recommend BA/UU/R to increase the chances of your rounds going where you intend for them to.

For armor, depends on the type. Slugs and 00 buck aren't likely to penetrate most soft and hard armor, but particularly with soft armor are very likely to stop the threat, which is the primary goal.

[Rshooter]

I am somewhat rural and use slugs. I understand a slug can pass through an interior wall, insulation, and exterior wall but I really doubt that slug will have the power to travel the two hundred yards to a neighbors house and then penetrate their walls after that. Besides that my neighbors all live uphill.

That would make an interesting experiment though to fire a slug through walls and then see how it's ballistics are affected. I would bet that the drop would be very significant.

[Labyrinth666]

well, my neighbor is about 50 yards away and their house is made of bricks, do you think a slug would penetrate my walls and theirs as well?

[FullEffect1911]

well, my neighbor is about 50 yards away and their house is made of bricks, do you think a slug would penetrate my walls and theirs as well?

Probably not, but I wouldn't bank on that. If you feel compelled to use slugs in a HD shotgun I would stick with foster type rifled slugs. A large chunk of squishy lead will at least not penetrate to much more then necessary. Brenekke and sabot slugs will penetrate more because they have a stronger structure to them. Slugs are typically used on deer (or larger) or for longer ranges where shot becomes less effective.

I personally use 2-3/4" 8 or 9 pellet 00 buckshot. Pattern them in your shotgun to see what brand gives you the pattern you want at the range you want.

[RockyMtnTactical]

00 Buck.

[AcceptableUserName]

Bean bags make good chairs for adolescents or toys for toddlers; although at one time people collected bean bags in the shape of animals.



LOL!

[saturno_v]

As many already said..it all depends from where you live and what kind of danger you are going to face...

In my case, I live in a semi-suburban area, 3/4 of an acre of property with neighbours all around....and most likely I'm going to face only human predators.

Under my bed I keep a Mossberg 500 stuffed 5 + 1 of buckshot 00 (and a plastic bag with 15 more), the regular Remington 2 3/4 high velocity ones (1325 fps) not copper plated.....the variable choke is set all open.

Probably a regular velocity Foster Slug would not overpenetrate a lot (it would flatten easily)....still I think it would go through more stuff than buckshot.

As backup, I have 3 handguns on my nightstand, a 40 S&W, a 9 mm and a 44 Mag loaded with 44 Specials....but the pump shotgun would be the first firearm I grab (and I wpuld put one of the handgun in my pocket too)

Never underestimate the ffect of a backshot in the chest/face at short distances...

[chuckusaret]

Good ol' 00 buck. However, Slugs are preferable at ranges that are no longer labelled "self-defense" and suddenly become "prison-time".

I tried to find where Slugs are not a legal SD/HD round and I am not able to do so. I called several lawyers and the sheriff's office and all stated that they were not aware of any law outlawing the use of slugs for SD/HD.

Please provide any info that you have on the law.

[Schofield3]

#4 shot; or low-recoil 00 buck

[ny]

00 buckshot! If there is 2 assalents 3 or so ft apart you'll get them both!

[Titan6]

00 buckshot! If there is 2 assalents 3 or so ft apart you'll get them both!

Maybe if they were 50 feet away.

[Labyrinth666]

I was thinking I could alternate, hit them first with the buck shot and then hit them with a slug if they are still moving, although I would most likely try to remove their leg at the knee with the slug if it comes to it

[cameron.personal]

I was thinking I could alternate, hit them first with the buck shot and then hit them with a slug if they are still moving, although I would most likely try to remove their leg at the knee with the slug if it comes to it

Are you serious?

[benEzra]

Good ol' 00 buck. However, Slugs are preferable at ranges that are no longer labelled "self-defense" and suddenly become "prison-time".
I tried to find where Slugs are not a legal SD/HD round and I am not able to do so. I called several lawyers and the sheriff's office and all stated that they were not aware of any law outlawing the use of slugs for SD/HD.
I believe he's saying that at distances at which slugs are more effective than buckshot, you can't usually claim self-defense.

I am somewhat rural and use slugs. I understand a slug can pass through an interior wall, insulation, and exterior wall but I really doubt that slug will have the power to travel the two hundred yards to a neighbors house and then penetrate their walls after that. Besides that my neighbors all live uphill.

That would make an interesting experiment though to fire a slug through walls and then see how it's ballistics are affected. I would bet that the drop would be very significant.
You may be underestimating the power and trajectory of heavy .729 caliber slugs. Think ".45-70 Government" and you'll be in the right ballpark. Here's a piece of "bulletproof" polycast acrylic, from the Box o'Truth:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm


Stopped a .223 FMJ at close range:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/6-9.jpg


Stopped a .308 FMJ at close range:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/6-11.jpg


Couldn't stop a 12-gauge slug:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/6-13.jpg

[Labyrinth666]

why couldn't I use a slug? Dead is dead, if I take someone's head off with some 00 buck from 10ft. away, why would it bee any diferent than a slug (granted a slug might paint my walls, but they need a new coat anyway)?

[nathan]

Car burglar shot dead by shotgun mama ! I bet it was loaded with buckshots !


http://www.khou.com/news/pregnant-woman-shoots-burglary-suspect-69583407.html

[MikePaiN]

Thanks benEzra.....I was reading through this thread and knew I needed to linky to the Box-O-Truth..but you beat me too it :)

main page:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[Fred Fuller]

00 buckshot! If there is 2 assalents 3 or so ft apart you'll get them both!

Heaven preserve us from shotgun mythology. Next, someone will be saying that "with a shotgun, ya don't gotta even aim."

At usual home defense ranges, shotgun patterns won't be much bigger than saucer size, IF they even get that big. 'Bore size' is much more likely. Personally, if I have any choice in the matter, I won't use a barrel/load that produces four foot patterns at 75 feet (25 yards), much less a lot closer.


...although I would most likely try to remove their leg at the knee with the slug if it comes to it

And likewise, Heaven preserve us from the "shoot them just a little bit" approach to self defense. Lookit- a shotgun, and ANYTHING fired from it, is a deadly weapon. Its use constitutes the application of lethal force. Any time application of lethal force is not legally justified, use of a shotgun- no matter what it is loaded with- is not going to be justified. I am not a lawyer, and I don't know case law or blackletter law in all jurisdictions, but I'd sure hate to have to go to court with a defense that 'I only meant to shoot him a little bit.'

If you're justified in shooting, shoot for center mass and shoot to stop. Otherwise, find a different way to solve your problem than a shotgun. But no matter what, know the law regarding self defense where you live. And get your info from a local criminal defense attorney, not off the Internet.

[benEzra]

why couldn't I use a slug? Dead is dead, if I take someone's head off with some 00 buck from 10ft. away, why would it bee any diferent than a slug (granted a slug might paint my walls, but they need a new coat anyway)?
The difference isn't effectiveness so much as recoil and downrange hazard. A slug penetrates building materials like a .45-70; there aren't all that many common firearms (including a lot of high-powered rifles) that a 12-gauge shotgun shooting slugs will not out-penetrate, which is fine if you live in the boonies, but not so fine if you have neighbors.

[nulfisin]

Don't, God forbid, hurt your family. I have a wife and four kids. Buckshot easily goes through drywall, so it is not for me. A blast or three of birdshot has a pleasant subduing capacity without the same collateral risk.

[mljdeckard]

nulfisin- read Lee's post in #47.

Here's the thing about overpenetration. You ALWAYS have to plan on ANY load from ANY gun overpenetrating. It's not like you can stand your kid behind the bad guy, shoot him with birdshot, and say to yourself; "Wow, it's magical that I used birdshot, there's no way it could hurt my kid." For birdshot to be effective, (It is ALWAYS less effective than buckshot,) you're talking about less then ten feet of range. An ounce of lead is an ounce of lead when you're close enough. BUT, it will ALSO scream straight through a human target at that range. If you don't believe me do some testing of your own. Preventing people in your house is a matter of planning and shooting angle, not ammo selection. No matter how safe your round is with a direct hit, statistics show you won't always get that hit.

As for slugs, it's not a bad idea to keep some, say in a sidesaddle, 2-3 rounds, pointing the opposite direction. If there arose a need for you to take a shot through the refrigerator, you would have the option.

[Kindrox]

You ALWAYS have to plan on ANY load from ANY gun overpenetrating.

Really? What is your definition of overpenetrating? For example, if I was to use #8 birdshot, I should plan on it penetrating the equivilent of 16-20 inches of gelatin? What about rock salt?

Maybe people choose ammo and guns with the idea that the risk of one overpenetrating is less than an alternate choice? Not that it can never happen?

[geniusiknowit]

well, my neighbor is about 50 yards away and their house is made of bricks, do you think a slug would penetrate my walls and theirs as well?

It will penetrate your walls, even if it's brick. It may or may not penetrate your neighbors' wall after that. It could penetrate your wall, then a neighbor's window. Or penetrate your window, then a neighbor's wall.

Buckshot and slug will both penetrate interior walls with ease. The question is whether or not you have to worry about penetrating exterior walls. If you have neighbors within shooting range, stick to buckshot.

[mljdeckard]

Kindrox-

You certainly can't take for granted that it WON'T. Are YOU going to stand your kid after a bad guy and two layers of sheet rock, shoot through with ANYTHING, and hope for the best? This is why you can't make 'lower penetration ammo' part of your plan. It ALL has the possibility. You might as well use the most EFFECTIVE ammo. Not just in the home, EVERYWHERE.

[DougW]

Reduced recoil 00 buck in the tube and side saddle and reduced recoil 1oz slugs in the butt cuff. If you are not sure about your load, go shoot something like a pumpkin at 10 yards and see what your stuff will do. I use high v #6 in 3 gun matches instead of buck, and the bird shot works well for knocking plates over. Wouldn't use it for HD though.

[Kindrox]

You certainly can't take for granted that it WON'T. Are YOU going to stand your kid after a bad guy and two layers of sheet rock, shoot through with ANYTHING, and hope for the best? This is why you can't make 'lower penetration ammo' part of your plan. It ALL has the possibility. You might as well use the most EFFECTIVE ammo. Not just in the home, EVERYWHERE.

Humans have the intelligence to evaluate risk factors. Slugs and shot may have the potential to both penetrate the same, but odds are they won't.

[mljdeckard]

So......are you going to stand your kids in front of it, with two layers of sheetrock to protect them?

It isn't relative. It's yes or no.

[Daniel]

RE: slugs and penetration,

According to a forensics book I have, your typical Foster slugs rarely penetrate the human torso; they end up pancaking or breaking up into a few large pieces. The author did numerous autopsies of people hit with such. Buckshot was the same, rarely penetrating the torso unless the range was very close. This bodes with my testing on slugs on penetrating water bottles; they flatten/pancake upon penetration of a soft target and this inhibits their penetration greatly, but it also creates a much large wound track, of course. People who hunt deer with lead slugs will probably find a similar thing, i.e., the slug resting on the off side that was hit just under the skin.

If you hit what you're aiming at, there's no need to worry about "overpenetration" with buckshot or slugs. So practice, then practice some more.

As for me, I like the standard high velocity 9 pellet load of 00 buckshot (Winchester 00SG). I've tested it at various ranges, and I know where it hits and how it patterns. I like it over slugs for the simple reason of putting nine holes in the target rather than one, which equates to a greater chance of striking a main artery for example, which will lead to quicker incapacitation (which is death).

[mljdeckard]

In real life, you cannot assume you will get that hit, no matter how much practice you have.

[Kindrox]

So......are you going to stand your kids in front of it, with two layers of sheetrock to protect them?

It is hard to make predictions, particularly of the future. If my life is in danger, I might have to take that shot.

A question for you is, will you "stand" your neighbor's kids up between you, 10 layers of sheetrock and 2 layers of siding, and take a shot with a slug?

[Snakum]

Since picking up shotgun fever about six months ago I have read just about every defensive shotgun book in print, read every website currently on the errornet, read almost every HD shotgun post here and elsewhere, and picked Lee L.'s brain repeatedly (he's the resident shotgun guru). I've also tested/patterned a whole lot of different brands and sizes of buckshot and slugs. And here's what I do for home defense, armed with all that info ...

... a simple, 18.5", bead-sighted, cylinder bored, Streamlight mounted, Remington 870 with 6 rounds of Remington 2 3/4" 00 buck in the tube and 6 more on the caddie. Plain old Wally World 2 3/4" 00 buck held the best patterns, allowed quicker follow-up shots, and were relatively inexpensive. I keep it simple, because simple works.

My hunting set-up is quite different. But HD? Keep it simple.

[Rshooter]

You may be underestimating the power and trajectory of heavy .729 caliber slugs. Think ".45-70 Government" and you'll be in the right ballpark. Here's a piece of "bulletproof" polycast acrylic, from the Box o'Truth:

Yes the slug passed through the acrylic when the two bullets did not but I believe that test was more about mass then penetration. You give me a .308 and I can shoot through a bullet proof jacket but a slug will not. Does that prove disprove the box of truth? No, just different parameters.

You cannot make me believe that one ounce of soft lead will pass through my interior wall, the exterior wall, and then still maintain it's trajectory, assuming that I miss.

You also cannot make me believe that one ounce of soft lead is more dangerous than a FMJ load that I might load into a 9mm. These rounds are known for over penetration. I will stick with my slugs.

[USSR]

I was thinking I could alternate, hit them first with the buck shot and then hit them with a slug if they are still moving, although I would most likely try to remove their leg at the knee with the slug if it comes to it

why couldn't I use a slug? Dead is dead, if I take someone's head off with some 00 buck from 10ft. away, why would it bee any diferent than a slug (granted a slug might paint my walls, but they need a new coat anyway)?

You're a sick puppy, L666.

Don

[SlamFire1]

One year at Camp Perry I was squadded with a Toledo Cop. They carried shotguns. I asked him about the effectiveness of buckshot. Buckshot is very effective on humans. Devastingly effective.

[mljdeckard]

Kindrox- I don't assume that ANY shotgun round won't overpenetrate. I use #4 buck, but I could see the possibility of keeping slugs in the sidesaddle for the possibility that you need to shoot through something. If you have them, then you have the option.

[nulfisin]

Of course buckshot provides more knowdown power than than birdshot. If that's the only criterion, then buckshot easily wins. But, in my house, it's not. Realistically, any "justifiable" shooting in our house is going to be at close range -- 15 or 20 feet tops. Birdshot will stop most intruders at that distance. Not as well as 00 buck, but down is down. The difference is that stray pellets are not going through a wall or door.

For what it's worth, I've spoken at length to a former FBI agent and Chicago street cop about this very subject. The consensus is that buckshot is obviously more lethal, but too dangerous to loved ones in a confined area.

[mljdeckard]

Yes, they will.

[saturno_v]

Unfortunately the use of a firearm in a defense situation it implies some level of risk (if you do not have a firearm it is worse for sure!!)

I'm not going to use birdshot against an intruder..I want him down for good....that means buckshot.....there must a be a reaosn why 00 buckshot is so popular for HD....

[Nicodemus38]

actually what you should do is look at remingtons ammunition for shotguns. the corelokt jhp slugs in sabots for 12 and 20 ga. the leave entrance holes that would make a handgunner with a 454 proud of, and exit holes that look like you used a 30-06. and they really dont pose as much structural risk as solid slugs, but however pass through more stuff behind a deer then buckshot.
however, these jhp will do far far far more injury to something that it hits. just about liquifies a deers chest at 50 yards.

since your considering buckshot for self defense, have you considered a small caliber pistol in a similar bore diameter as the buckshot is? if a 9 pellet load of .32 caliber buckshot is good for sd in your opinion, why not have a 32 acp with a 18 round magazine? each bullet will have the same amount of energy as each shotgun pellet as it leaves the barrel.

[PJR]

The advantage of a shotgun is the option to select a wide range of shot. My circumstances are a rural location where the shotgun will most likely be deployed against small varmints but could and have encounted larger animals including bears. My typical loading is one round of #4 buckshot up first followed by Brenneke slugs. Birdshot is reserved for the birds.

[Daniel]

In real life, you cannot assume you will get that hit, no matter how much practice you have.
Of course, but the more you practice, the more likely it is that you'll hit the target. Criminals rarely go prone and fire from behind cover a few hundred meters away, like in military applications, so your chances of hitting are fairly good if you know how to use your weapon. I'm quite certain I'd have a 100% hit chance at 10 meters and under in the "real world" with my shotgun, as I do in somewhat stressful situations, like hunting and sport/competitions.

I know that I haven't missed at typical self-defense ranges in practice and hunting, I know that 00 buckshot won't penetrate a human unless it's very close range (muzzle against skin); I know for a fact that birdshot has terrible penetration, unless the muzzle is pretty much against the skin (it doesn't even completely penetrate rabbits in my experience; I've moved up to BB shot for them).

I'd take the most likely scenario, and that's hitting what I'm aiming at and using effective ammunition (with the chance of missing for some unforeseen reason), then to hit [and still possibly miss for the same unforeseen reason] with ammunition that might not stop the unprovoked attack. The chance of a errant pellet passing through several walls and hitting someone is far, far less than the chances of me missing the target at under 10 meters.

I also make sure my muzzle never sweeps the room of anyone due to effective training; hold at low ready and shoulder once the situation is justified lethal force.

All common defensive pistols and rifles will penetrate more in flesh and most types of housing materials than 00 buckshot, and Foster slugs too on torso hits.

[Philo_Beddoe]

I keep hearing about how slugs overpenatrate and I think it depends.

Brenneke slugs most defineatly, they are solid unlike the hollow Foster slug.

Ballistic gel testing indicates that standard 12 ga foster slugs will not overpenetrate as they expand and break up easily.

In both of these ballistics gelatin test, the slugs never penetrated the 16 inches of gelatin and in fact penetrated around 12-15 inches with excellent expansion, which according to the FBI is the sweet spot of penetration. The FBI doesnt really consider it overexpansion until 18 inches or more.

Brenneke slugs are quite different from the soft led foster slugs.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Excel_files/12%20gauge%203%20inch%20magnum%20slug%20summary%20Excel%2097%20to%202003%20format.xls

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html

[trol79]

I don't have any experiances with buckshot, in germany sportshooting is most times done with birdshot or slugs. so if I were in a HD-situation, geco competition slugs would be my choice, because i'm most used to shooting them.

[saturno_v]

since your considering buckshot for self defense, have you considered a small caliber pistol in a similar bore diameter as the buckshot is? if a 9 pellet load of .32 caliber buckshot is good for sd in your opinion, why not have a 32 acp with a 18 round magazine? each bullet will have the same amount of energy as each shotgun pellet as it leaves the barrel.


First, a single 0.33 pellet has more energy than a 32 ACP as the muzzle velocity of the 00 Buckshot I use is 1325 fps vs. 850-900, at best, for the 32 Auto...you can use the Hornady TAP 00 buckshot load which reach 1600 fps!!!

Yes I know the actual pellet is a bit lighter than a .32 bullet and it has worse sectional density....however, becauce of its much higher velocity, the energy is superior.


Second, when you shoot someone is like hitting him with nine 32 cal. bullets at the same time (15 if i use 3" shells),....the shock is a bit different!! :D:D

[mljdeckard]

Daniel-

You haven't done it when someone was shooting back.

[Kindrox]

You haven't done it when someone was shooting back.

And was he moving, quite possibly in an awkward direction? I am always amused at the "can't miss" crowd, like the criminal is going to phone up "Would 2pm work for you? Great! How about I use the front door? No? Ok your favorite ambush spot it is! See you there!" Then I guess they will warn the neightbors to leave, round up the kids and wife to get them down flat behind the ambush spot, and have at it :rolleyes:

[Snakum]

I know that 00 buckshot won't penetrate a human unless it's very close range (muzzle against skin)

I'll have to disagree with you there. I have seen post-mortem pics and autopsy reports where at least some 00 buck pellets went all the way a human torso thru from as far away as three yards.

[SnakeLogan]

First a single 0.33 pellet has more energy than a 32 ACP as the muzzle velocity of the 00 Buckshot I use is 1325 fps vs. 850-900, at best, for the 32 ACP...you can use the Hornady TAP 00 buckshot load which reach 1600 fps!!!

Yes I know, the actualy pellet is a bit lighter than a 32 ACP bullet and it has worse sectional density....however becauce of its much higher velocity, the energy is superior.


Second, when you shoot someone is like hitting him with nine 32 ACP bullets at the same time (15 if i use 3" shells),....the shock is a bit different!!

Good post. Plus incapacitation has less to do with energy than some people make it out to. Instant incapacitation is about hitting the BG's CNS. Any projectile that is able to travel 16+ inches in ballistic gel is going to have enough energy to cause "lights out" when it hits the BG's CNS.

[mljdeckard]

Yes. A lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about what their gun will and will not do, and what they KNOW will happen in a real-life gunfight. Bad ideas.

[Nicodemus38]

to get actual energy of buckshot at the muzzle you have to divide the listed muzzle energy by the number of pellets in the load. that doesnt include any buffering or shotcup/wad weight.

for example if the box says 1000 foot pounds at the muzzle for a 10 pellet load, each pellet will have roughly 100 foot pounds of energy when it has left the muzzle.
actual energy will be a little less as the buffering, wads, and shotcup will subtract a portion of the total energy from the load when it seperates. One old time shotgunner i used to know liked to add 2 pellets to the divisor number if it had a shotcup, and an extra pellet for the buffering.

[meadmkr]

Assuming I grab the 20g Mossberg first and not the Glock the first round is usually #2 or #4 shot, then buckshot and then the last ones are slugs... The choice of shot first slugs last is due to the layout of our house and bedrooms.

If an intruder or intruders are confronted and shots fired, their options would be to retreat quickly or face exponentially increasing lethal force. If they do retreat after the first shot they are going to be in severe 'discomfort' with several dozen pellets in their carcass with a trip to the ER being highly likely. And if they keep moving towards me the lethality increases.

[scotjute]

If the threat involved for home defense included marauding bears, I'd go with slugs or one round of buckshot followed by slugs. For defence against people within 40 yds., buckshot would be my choice. # 4 ok for use up to about 25 yds., # 1 or # 0 any distance up to 40 yds.

[Rshooter]

Yes. A lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about what their gun will and will not do, and what they KNOW will happen in a real-life gunfight. Bad ideas.

Is it like combat? Or worse is it like being alone with someone intent one doing you harm? It is amazing how alone a person can feel even if they have an advantage a weapon. The only way to overcome a situation like this is training and practice because what you have trained and practiced will come out if it has been done properly.

[Ben86]

I use 00 buck. I've been considering #1 though for less recoil (for the wify), less penetration and larger wound area (16x.30" instead of just 9x.33"). I save the slugs for hunting. I would never, ever want to use one in the house. The only time I see myself needing one in a pinch is if someone is trying to pick me off from a distance, in which case I would use my .270 instead.

[geniusiknowit]

for a 10 pellet load, each pellet will have roughly 100 foot pounds of energy when it has left the muzzle.

Looking at 00 buck ballistic gelatin tests, the damage doesn't appear to have been done by 10 projectiles with ~100 ft lbs energy each.

[WatongaJim]

I like #4 buckshot, although it's a little harder to find in most stores, as it's not as popular as 0-000 loads. 27 pellets per shell if I remember right.

[ARdefense]

I load every other- 00,#4,00,#4 and so on...

[tactikel]

Never fire a shotgun at anybody unless you are in mortal danger! warning shots (which is what birtshot is) invite the intruder (if he is armed) to shoot you!-if he is not, you are likely to be arrested for aggravated battery, or at least be charged in a civil suit.
IMHO use: buck, buck, slug, slug.