[LynnKCircle]

One would think, after all, that members of groups which have been violently attacked in the past for their affiliation would be first in line to support Second Amendment rights. Yet, superficially, this seems to be false regarding many Jews, blacks, and other minorities.

Here's the real answer: it is NOT that Jews, blacks, and minorities are generally anti-gun. Instead, it is that the average American living in a big city is anti-gun regardless of religion or ethnicity. The National Council of Churches is VERY anti-gun, and the bulk of its membership comes from urban-based rather than rural-based churches.

Most American Jews and blacks live in big cities. Therefore they share the same ideas about guns as their white Christian counterparts.

Why?

Prior to the end of the Viet Nam war, a majority of American men had served in the armed forces. Unless their basic training was very different from mine, they were indoctrinated with the idea that "Your weapon is your best friend."

Moreover, until 1970 or so, the NRA was very active in promoting riflery at summer camps. In fact, I first learned to shoot during riflery at YMCA summer camps in NRA-sanctioned programs.

This meant that until 1975 or so, a large and significant number of Americans had had some positive experience with firearms. But look at the average American urban dweller today. His ONLY exposure to firearms comes through the 6:00 news and Hollywood splatter movies like The Matrix. Unlike the older Hollywood movies like Shane and High Noon, in which the main character uses a gun only as a last result to protect the innocent, in The Matrix and movies like it the characters are explicitly told not to worry about any innocent bystanders they kill. Instead, they are told, get out there and splatter as many people as possible.

In other words, the only real experience an entire generation of Americans has had with firearms is the mayhem on the nightly news. Combine that with the fictional experience of movies showing even the "good guys" as amoral killers and the resulting attitudes aren't too difficult to predict.

Our problem, therefore, is not with Jews and minorities -- it is with urbanized Americans who are rapidly becoming the voting majority. We, ourselves, need to stop "preaching to the choir" and instead begin trying to convert the masses one at a time.

The easiest way is to invite someone to come with you to your next range session -- and pick someone who has never handled a gun before. Let them see that the other shooters are NOT the wild-eyed crazies portrayed in HCI propaganda but instead a cross-section of America. Let them experience the real fun of shooting themselves. Remember that conversion is an exponential process: convert one person who will convert two others and so on. That's one way how we'll win this battle.

The second is to support movies and television shows (and those, especially, are few and far between) which show weapons being used by morally-aware people to defend the innocent and good.

Unfortunately, the only recent one I can think of is Lord of the Rings. (Did anyone else catch the scene in The Two Towers where the princess of Rohan is practicing with a sword and says, "Women who don't know how to use a sword can still die upon one."?)

I started out to give my two cents and ran on for more than a dollar's worth. My apologies if this post bores you stiff for running on way too long. But I'll still stand by my opinions in it.

Lynn Circle

[AJ Dual]

Good thoughts there.

My additions:

Support urban gun stores. Keep them visible.

One word, an acronym actually: JPFO

"Black Man With A Gun"

Encourage the Pink Pistols if you run across them.

[Balog]

Prior to the end of the Viet Nam war, a majority of American men had served in the armed forces.

Uhh, what? I don't think is accurate, but maybe.

[2dogs]

"Military service peaked during the mobilization for World War II. Accordingly, seventy-six percent of American men today between the ages of seventy and seventy-four are veterans. By contrast, less than a tenth of men under age thirty are veterans. With conscription abolished and the armed forces getting smaller, veterans are a diminishing minority. For the most part, what young people know of military service they will have heard from their fathers, seen in the movies, or otherwise gained secondhand.

Over the past two centuries, forty-one million persons have served the nation in war. Most of them, about eighty-five percent, served in one of the major conflicts of the twentieth century. World War II alone accounted for forty percent of all who have served in American forces throughout history.
Some of those who served did not survive to join the ranks of veterans. In the two world wars, Korea, and Vietnam, for example, 613,727 American military members lost their lives. (Another 1,132,435 sustained wounds that were not mortal.)
At present, twenty-nine percent of the nation's civilian men age eighteen or older are veterans. The current population of living American veterans is 26.5 million. Since 1993, the number of Vietnam-era veterans, now 31.2 percent of the total, has exceeded the number of living World War II veterans. The average veteran is 56.6 years old. About 4.4 percent of all veterans are women.
While the population of veterans is decreasing, the number of military retirees is increasing. This trend reflects the large standing forces of the postwar period and a greater representation of career people in the force. The current military retired population is 1.555 million. This year, for the first time, the number of retirees will surpass the number of persons serving on active duty (1.526 million). Since 1972, the service accounting for the largest share of retirees (36.5 percent) has been the Air Force, which has 164,882 officer and 403,182 enlisted retirees.
In the new 104th Congress, 39.26 percent of the members are veterans, compared with 44.3 percent in the departing 103d Congress. Military experience is more prevalent in the Senate, where fifty-four percent of the members have served in the armed forces, than in the House of Representatives, where thirty-six percent have served. One surprise is that more freshman members of the 104th Congress are veterans (21.65 percent) than was the case with the 103d (18.52 percent). "


http://www.afa.org/magazine/feb1995/0295edit.asp

[Azrael256]

Here's my view. For frame of reference, I'm a 21 year old Jewish college student.

ALL of the Jews in my family save myself and my mother are rabidly anti-gun. The vast majority of us grew up in either Dallas or Tulsa, not New York City or LA. The only other member of my family who isn't anti-gun, and who's quite the duck hunter, is a 6'5" Choctaw who is my uncle by marriage.

You must realize that the Eastern European or "Russian" Jews, as we're often called, outnumber the German, Sephardic, etc. Jews by a LONG shot. Russian Jews come from countries that were leaning toward socialism even when we began leaving for the states. For further reference, my family got over here around 1910-ish. Jews lived together in the "old country" in a system that could be called communism, were it imposed by the government. Btw, I'm totally 100% for that system when instituted by private means, which is why I'm always happy to donate my time, expertise, and what little money I have to people who are worse off than me. In nearly every governmental system, even the United States until 1868 (when the last state, I forget which one, allowed Jews to vote in state elections), we were disenfranchised in one way or another, and the VAST majority of our host countries disarmed us.

We came here with two major facets to our mindset. We want to help people less fortunate than ourselves. I know every religion (at least that I've studied) has some sort of "widows and orphans" type of charity system, but for some reason a greater proportion of Jews want it administered by the government. I think this is one big reason for the disproportionate number of Democrats/Socialists/Communists. We also have a mindset of disarmament. This is not an irrational fear (I'll go there in a minute), but something most Jews simply believe should be done because it is how we have been for so long. It is so ingrained in us that we can't get rid of it (or refuse to, really).

The third factor is fear. It may be that we have a memory of all of the times we were run out of a country, slaughtered, etc., but I don't get the feeling that there is that much thought in it. Guns (or really just weapons in general) have been used against us almost incessantly, and so we fear them, but I think we have lost the equation and just have the solutions left. We fear them irrationally because we do not understand that while guns can be, and have been, used to kill us, guns in OUR hands can be used to protect us from our assailants. We're just left with the knowledge of guns=bad, and don't really understand how the situation really works.

It is rare, and I mean REALLY rare, that Jews will think through the whole situation and stand up to fight. Six million dead, but how many died on their feet? Too few by my count. We are told that they will try to kill us in every generation, but I didn't read "so you should sit there and take it" in the next line. Unfortunately most Jews do. That part I don't understand.

I don't know if what I just typed made any sense, so take what you want and leave what you don't. I don't think all Jews are this way, I'm one obvious exception, but it is what I see in almost all of the Jews I know.

[alan]

While I cannot speak for black people, not being black myself, and even if I were, I could only speak for myself, regarding "Jews and Blacks Being Anti-Gun", I believe that the following is likely the case.

While some jews and some blacks are undoubtedly anti-gun, I suspect that the most vociferous anti-gunners are the SELF APPPOINTED spokespersons that constitute a giant "zitz" on the face of each group.

[LynnKCircle]

Thank you for the response. In turn, I want to add a few comments.

Although it may have seemed as if I were referring to Eastern Cities, I truly mean "urban America." During the past half-century large American cities have become more and more similiar, and I truly doubt that someone who was born and raised in Tulsa or Dallas during the past twenty-five years had THAT different a life experience from someone who grew up in Chicago or Cleveland.

But you do make a very good point -- cultural attitudes die hard. My grandfather on my mother's side escaped military service in the Czar's army by leaving Russia hidden under a load of hay. Russian Jews knew very well that their life in the Russian army would be brutal, painful, and short. It is quite possible that the experiences of Eastern European Jews who immigrated to large American cities is also a factor in their attitudes about guns.

Yet Jews whom I know who grew up in smaller towns, and especially in the South, have often a very different attitude towards guns than those who grew up in more urbanized areas. Certainly, from what I have seen, Jews who grew up in (for example) El Campo, Texas have attitudes similiar to others in the area. Jews who spent their formative years in Houston, however, and especially those who grew up as members of large synagogues like Beth Israel, are often horrified by my own pro-gun ideas. (But remember, too, that Christians in large cities also generally tend to be anti-gunners.) So, until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll stick by my thesis that anti-gunners tend to have grown up in large metropolitian areas, whereas pro-gunners tend to have grown up in smaller towns or rural areas, and that religion has little to do with it.

(By the way, my wife's family is from Israel, and they are not at all anti-gun ...)

[Orthonym]

I tend to blame the Romans for the whole sorry mess. The Jews used to be some fairly serious military badarses. They were just about the only people at the time who, after putting up a good fight and losing to the toga gang, actually had the nerve to try again. (and gave a very good account of themselves-see Masada) That's one more time than my people did. I guess the survivors back then decided to go with the flow, and established a cultural habit of doing so; a habit so strong that it was very hard to break even two millenia later.

P.s. Look at the pictures of Trajan's Column. Lots of captured menorahs and other Temple furniture shown there. The column itself was paid for by (some of) the loot from Jerusalem.





Edit: Changed "built with" to "paid for by"

[2dogs]

Six million dead, but how many died on their feet? Too few by my count. We are told that they will try to kill us in every generation, but I didn't read "so you should sit there and take it" in the next line. Unfortunately most Jews do.

I really don't understand how "never again" could become an empty mantra with no teeth in it.

Recently I read "The Bravest Battle: The 28 Days of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising". If that doesn't make a believer of someone, there is no hope.:(

[spartacus2002]

I knew nothing about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising til I read Unintended Consequences. Then I read some books, saw the Pianist.

Wow. What a testament to the power of the human spirit when guided by a strong will. Inspiring!

[Andrew Rothman]

I am a Jew who grew up in an anti family in an anti town.

Then I grew up.

Now I try to take a newbie (hopefully a Jewbie!) to the range every month.

[Orthonym]

Careful, there! "...power of the human spirit when guided by a strong will. Inspiring!" Oops! That could have come, and probably did, verbatim from the mouths of Hank Himmler, Joe Goebbels, or Onkel Adolf.


There's another category here:


RIGHT vs. WRONG

[spartacus2002]

I thought it was obvious that I was referring to the Warsaw Jews' spirit and will as being inspiring.

[Orthonym]

One of the many bad things the Nazis did was to poison the language and plant bad memes in the heads of all kinds of people, even, sometimes, their enemies.

[Cliff]

While I cannot speak for black people, not being black myself, and even if I were, I could only speak for myself,

Good point, which is a good lead in to my response. My grandfather on my fathers side grew up in Louisiana,and was a Baptist preacher on the Louisiana-Texas border for many years. My grandfather was considered a pistol-packing preacher back then. He had to be. Remember,this was back in the late 1930's,1940's, on up. So he had to deal with the klan who didn't care for black preachers spreading the gospel back then. He tought my father at a young age how to handle a rifle,and a pistol,and my mother also knew how to handle a firearm also. My father passed this on to my brother & myself when we were kids.

My family's roots are in the fields of west Texas where a gun was considered a simple tool of many uses. Hunting, protection,for sport, we always had guns in our family. My father was a LEO who enjoyed all aspects of shooting.No range qualifying every 6 months,and leaving the gun in the holster the rest of the time.My dad was a shooter. And a supporter of people to own guns,not just LEO's. So having guns around the house was as confortable for us as having a carton of milk in the fridge.

Being black had nothing to do with my family being pro or anti-gun.As you can see it was ingrained in us. I've said before that there are a lot of black folk who are pro-gun,but are silent about their views. Being pro-gun is not a popular view to be vocal about in the black community simply because of the stigma of violence and guns put together.
I attribute this to the heard mentality of most folk,and the asinine rantings of so called black leaders. Give me a break.
:banghead: :cuss: :fire:
That's why I'm a conservative,pro-gun,christian who just happens to be black. I will not follow the heard. I do my part as a NRA firearms instructor,and RSO to get more of the silent majority confortable with how they handle & shoot,and to also declare they are shooters also.

[MeekandMild]

Azrael256, could you answer a question about Jewish culture and guns? Can attitude be sorted not just by rural/urban but by where a person is in the orthodox-conservative-reform-secular-assimilated spectrum? It seems that in my life I have met more pro RKBA Jews from the Orthodox or Conservative faiths or who have assimilated into various Christian sects than Reform or secular Jews. Is this a true observation or just the way it might be in the few hundred I have known?

One could possibly make the same observation among Christian sects, with the more traditional and fundamental groups being more likely to entertain RKBA than the more "liberal" ones. I don't know about Jewish doctrines but I do know that the more "liberal" a Christian church becomes the more it mimics liberal Democratic dogma.

[chaim]

The simple answer, which can be enlarged and take an entire book, is that for centuries we were disarmed by law while we were often the victims of violence from our neighbors who were themselves armed. We came to associate arms with repression meanwhile the possession of weapons was not something that we came to associate as a Jewish thing. Today, in keeping with no tradition of keeping arms, few Jews own guns, but many are still terrified about having our neighbors possessing guns.

Can attitude be sorted not just by rural/urban but by where a person is in the orthodox-conservative-reform-secular-assimilated spectrum? Let me try to answer this. Both the Reform and Conservative movements have anti-2nd Amendment positions written into their platforms. Most secular Jews and members of the liberal denominations that I know (and am related to) are very anti-gun. However, in the Baltimore Orthodox community I have met very many people who either owned guns or were interested in learning when they found out I'm a gun guy.

[Tamara]

P.s. Look at the pictures of Trajan's Column. Lots of captured menorahs and other Temple furniture shown there. The column itself was paid for by (some of) the loot from Jerusalem.

Not to quibble, but you're thinking of the Arch of Titus. Trajan's Column commemorates his victory over the Dacians. :)

[RustyHammer]

"The Jews used to be some fairly serious military badarses. "

. . . Israel still is !

[Jonesy9]

we need more Kenn Blanchards in this country.

http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/


Lynnkcircle wrote:

"Here's the real answer: it is NOT that Jews, blacks, and minorities are generally anti-gun. Instead, it is that the average American living in a big city is anti-gun regardless of religion or ethnicity. The National Council of Churches is VERY anti-gun, and the bulk of its membership comes from urban-based rather than rural-based churches."


Very true. And there are many reasons why.


I come from the immediate suburbs of a large NE city and lived there for years. Guns are used in heinous crimes on a daily basis. The black community suffers a disproportiate number of the violence. There is nowhere to hunt or target shoot in any neighborhood. In some neighborhoods, carrying a gun is a sign of weakness, unless you're a cop or part of a crminal crew. There's more relaince on community, friends and family for support and protection in cities than I've seen in rural areas.

There are myriad other differences between city and rural dwellers that affect their opinions on guns. There are big dirrences between living some where with 100 people per square mile and 100,000 per sq mile.


I'm not familiar with the National Council but being as a NE city dweller, I'd rank religion very very low as any reason that guns carry a negative connotation is heavily populated areas.

[MeekandMild]

Both the Reform and Conservative movements have anti-2nd Amendment positions written into their platforms. So since most of the pro-RKBA Conservative Jews I know are southerners, I must assume the southern cultural factor to be primary in their RKBA stance? I would base this assumption on the fact that I meet a lot of southern Methodist and Episcopal Christians who are pro RKBA despite their churches' rabid anti stance.

There's more relaince on community, friends and family for support and protection in cities than I've seen in rural areas. So what you're saying Jonesy is that city folk believe there is safety in the herd? You may be right. The coyotes only take stragglers. :neener:

[Azrael256]

I agree on the analysis of the conservative and orthodox movements being much more pro 2A. The Reform movement is headed for a split (actually, all three of the main movements are), and I suspect that the split will create one new movement that is basically humanist, and you know what they'll think about... well, everything.

2dogs, I don't think that "Never again" is just an empty statment. When I say it, I mean it, and when Israel says it... well, that part is obvious. What seems to be happening with a lot of Jews is that they say things that are meaningful, but they do not understand the underlying principles. This is one of those problems that frustrates me to no end. Jews seem to be incapable of fully analyzing certain problems, and this is one of them. If the anti Jews understood clearly what "Never again" meant, they would be training their kids and stocking up on ammo. Maybe it is an unfair characterization, and I should just say that antis in general are incapable of fully analyzing the problem... I just think that the Jews, of all people, should have enough sense, and certainly enough historical background, to understand that "Never again" is synonymous with other important phrases like "Come and get 'em" and "...cold, dead hands." I don't know how they manage to miss that part.

[Jonesy9]

"So what you're saying Jonesy is that city folk believe there is safety in the herd? You may be right. The coyotes only take stragglers. "

meekandmild-- pretty much. but i bet even in towns down south people know not to F with certain families, certain neighborhoods etc. No?

[WAGCEVP]

for the same reason it "seems" that all women are anti gun........... that's what the mainstream news and politicos want you to believe...........

[MeekandMild]

I suspect that the split will create one new movement that is basically humanist I have a friend who is nominally a Reform. But he is actually closer in his beliefs and actions to another one of our mutual friends who is a Unitarian Universalist (a sect which has Christian historical background but is actually Humanist) than he is to his own wife. But his RKBA beliefs are more traditional than either his wife or the other friend.

Reading this thread (and this post) I recall a song from the 60's about a politically active rock band. "The one on the right was on the Left and the one on the left was in the Middle and the one in the middle was on the Right..."

People are individuals. :D

[Orthonym]

will defer to your learning unless and until I know better. Where can I look that up? (On the Web).

[Tamara]

Ask and ye shall receive (http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/titus/titus.html). :)

Incidentally, Trajan's Column was originally a monument commemorating the effort put into building the Trajan Forum (its height shows the amount of land removed to level a hilltop where it now stands. The spiral relief carving of the first and second Dacian wars may have been an afterthought, and was designed by a committee. It certainly wasn't made for viewing by folks prone to cricks in their necks. ;)

[Hot brass]

Thank you Alan.

While I cannot speak for black people, not being black myself, and even if I were, I could only speak for myself, regarding "Jews and Blacks Being Anti-Gun", I believe that the following is likely the case.

While some jews and some blacks are undoubtedly anti-gun, I suspect that the most vociferous anti-gunners are the SELF APPPOINTED spokespersons that constitute a giant "zitz" on the face of each group.







When a gun hater uses a gun it was because someone enraged him/her.

Swimming pool, sons gun, shot a kid. In NY! Carl,Carl
:barf:

[chaim]

So since most of the pro-RKBA Conservative Jews I know are southerners, I must assume the southern cultural factor to be primary in their RKBA stance? It certainly isn't something they get from their "movement". Some may also be a family thing (if their parents were gun owners and into self defense, some people did in fact learn that lesson from the Holocaust) and some are so "into" Israel that they got into guns too (pride in Jews being able to defend themselves).

I agree on the analysis of the conservative and orthodox movements being much more pro 2A. The Reform movement is headed for a split (actually, all three of the main movements are), and I suspect that the split will create one new movement that is basically humanist, and you know what they'll think about... well, everything. I think that with secular Jews you have the same thing going on as with secular everyone else. You have people that run the entire spectrum. More and more Jews are waking up and finding that the Democratic Party and its ideals aren't necessarily ours. Many are becoming Republicans, Libertarians, and Independents. Coorespondingly, many formerly liberal Jews are rethinking their specific ideologies as well. However, those who pick an actively liberal group (the Reform "movement" and to a slightly lesser degree the "Conservative movement") are going to be liberal to a much greater degree, and being liberal more than average will be anti-gun.

As for the three main movements splitting, well sort of. If you include Orthodox , we aren't really one movement. When the Reform movement came to be about 200 years ago, and the Conservative movement about 100, they needed something to call those of us who still practiced traditionally. Also, despite our many differences we felt under seige so we worked together. However, there have always been major differences. Broadly you have the Black Hat Orthodox (Chassidim and Yeshivish/Litvish) who are very tradional and the Modern Orthodox who are more intune with the modern American society. Still broadly you can split the Black Hat into Chassidim and Yeshivish. However, there are scores of Chassidic groups with very different customs alone. Yeshivish/Litvish can be split between several groups and the Modern Orthodox are more varied than just about any (from nearly "Black Hat" to barely Orthodox). Anyway, now that I've bored 99.99% of the board with stuff they don't care about, I'll not go any deeper into this.

I have a friend who is nominally a Reform. But he is actually closer in his beliefs and actions to another one of our mutual friends who is a Unitarian Universalist (a sect which has Christian historical background but is actually Humanist)... Man this thread is getting weird. I was raised as a Unitarian Universalist (until about a decade ago I planned to be a minister) by a Jewish mom and a non-Jewish Humanist father. When I first "became" Jewish (since mom is Jewish I have always been Jewish even when I didn't accept/recognize that) I checked out Reform but I was completely unattracted because it looked to me like Unitarianism with Jewish trappings instead of Christian trappings. Anyway, for those confused ("I thought he was an Orthodox Jew"), I became Orthodox about 4 years ago (in my late 20's). (Some of those who have met me may now be slapping their thighs and saying, "that explains the German sounding last name" :D )

[Wildalaska]

Funny, 90% of the Jewish guys I know or knew love guns...and heres one.....Just got this in from my cousin, hes Orthodox and lives in NYC....



"New Shomer Shabbos Shooting Club in NJ First Event November 16 - Guns,
Beef, & a Hebron Benefit 10/30/03

ATTN: NJ 2nd Amendment supporters, gun enthusiasts, AND Orthodox Jews who
have wanted to learn to shoot, but couldn't attend most gun club events on
Saturdays.

Guns & Beef Night - a Hebron Benefit - Raise Money for Hebron

In association with The Golani Rifle and Pistol Club in Formation - the new
Shomer Shabbos Shooters Club of Bergen County - We are pleased to invite
you to "Guns & Beef Night" - a Hebron Benefit

When: Sunday, November 16th, 5pm - 8pm

Where: Paterson Rod & Gun Club 1000 Market Street Paterson, NJ Directions:
Rt 80 to Exit 59 - 300 feet on the left

Food: Absolutely - Catered by Dougie's (glatt kosher)

Cause: To raise money for Hebron

Cost: $180 per shooter. Over half of all proceeds will go to Hebron. We
supply dinner, firearms and ammo.

Who: Experienced and first time shooters, over the age of 18. Ladies are
welcome.

What: We will supply an awesome arsenal of handguns and assault rifles that
is guaranteed to get you "pumped"! "If it's legal, we shoot it!"

Gun Politics - None: We're just going to have a "blast" and raise money for
a great cause.

Safety: We adhere strictly to NRA safety guidelines. There will be a heavy
presence of certified range officers throughout the evening. A safety class
precedes any shooting. We fire exclusively at paper targets - this is not a
hunting event."

Anybody in NYC or environs interested I got the contacts....

[chaim]

In association with The Golani Rifle and Pistol Club in Formation - the new
Shomer Shabbos Shooters Club... Hmm, there has been some informal talk (so far) of starting a shooting club within the Baltimore community (hmm, I wonder who is responsible for that:evil: ). I wonder if the NJ group would mind us "borrowing" that name (SHomer Shabbos Shooters Club, SSSC).

Anybody in NYC or environs interested I got the contacts.... I'm pretty far from NY so I wouldn't join them, but I might be interested in joining them for this one shoot. It starts at 5PM, I would even have some time to get there. I'd be very happy if you'd PM me with the contact info so I can get more information.

[semf]

We fear them irrationally because we do not understand that while guns can be, and have been, used to kill us, guns in OUR hands can be used to protect us from our assailants. We're just left with the knowledge of guns=bad, and don't really understand how the situation really works.
While not Jewish or Black I understand your point, I used this argument on my wife for a couple years. Her argument was that bad guys with guns massacred her village and murdered her family. Mine was that that was because the good guys didn't have guns.
I have used the Warsaw Ghetto uprising as an example many times

[braeske]

I wholeheartedly agree that tolerance and knowledge of guns is a rural-urban issue. I have been shouted down on this point on other gun boards whose folks just want to say "those evil gun-grabbing democrats." :rolleyes:

- Chris

[MeekandMild]

Man this thread is getting weird. (snip) I checked out Reform but I was completely unattracted because it looked to me like Unitarianism with Jewish trappings instead of Christian trappings. You're right about the weirdness. Truth is stranger than fiction. With me it was a journey from Atheism to Christianity with a brief pit stop in Unitarianism, about long enough to figure out Unitarianism was just Humanism in drag.

[BHPshooter]

Let's not forget that not every group of people who has been persecuted is anti-gun. I live in Utah -- everybody knows it as the Mormon State.

When the Mormons kept settling further and further west, they were usually violently run out of the county/state that they were living in, and lots died. Events like the massacre at Hans' Mill and the murder of Joseph Smith -- the first Mormon leader -- just serve as a few examples.

Most Mormons are pro-gun, as far as I can tell. I have met a couple of Mormon antis, but very few (like 3).

Very interesting thread, BTW.

Wes

[semf]

Fumegator. could that be because the Mormons are an American based group that learned early on how to use guns to defend themselvs. From every thing I've heard or read about the Mormons they were a particularly self reliant group that you did not want to get on the bad side of.

[alan]

Braeske wrote:

"I wholeheartedly agree that tolerance and knowledge of guns is a rural-urban issue. I have been shouted down on this point on other gun boards whose folks just want to say "those evil gun-grabbing democrats."

Last time I looked, at the Republicans v. the Democrats, concerning firearms, Democratic Congressman John D. Dingell (Mich.) is most often, though not always, a reliable vote/voice on the pro-gun side. Republican Congressman Henry Hyde (Chicago area) in-so-far as I can recall, has yet to see anything labeled "gun control" that he didn't fall instantly in love with.

Now then, if one looks at DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP, one might get a somewhat different picture, though the Speaker of The House Hastert, a Republican from Ill., seems less than trustworthy on firearms related legislation. Then re that 1994 foolishness, the so-called Assault Weapons Ban, former Republican Congressman and later governor of PA, Tom Ridge voted for it's passage. Look where he is now, and look who put him there.

In short, this business about Democrats are all anti gun, while Republicans are all pro gun simply isn't true. Sad thing about this fact is the following. It places, on the shoulders of the electorate, the need to think about things.

By the way, if we keep meeting like this, people will talk.

[chaim]

Let's not forget that not every group of people who has been persecuted is anti-gun. I live in Utah -- everybody knows it as the Mormon State. Certainly not every persecuted group turns anti-gun. With Jews though we were banned from gun ownership while our enemies (not always the government either, sometimes the surrounding peasantry) did often own guns which were used against us. In the case of the Mormons you guys certainly owned guns too so you learned from it that guns could be used to save you. In fact, aren't you guys essentially responsible for some of the earliest effective snubs (I think Brigham (sp?) Young's bodyguard cut down the barrels of Colt Navy revolvers for easier concealment).

[BHPshooter]

In the case of the Mormons you guys certainly owned guns too so you learned from it that guns could be used to save you. In fact, aren't you guys essentially responsible for some of the earliest effective snubs (I think Brigham (sp?) Young's bodyguard cut down the barrels of Colt Navy revolvers for easier concealment).

I have no clue about most of that. I know next to nothing about Mormon history, but yes, you spelled the first Governor of Utah's name right. :) I wasn't aware of the snub thing, but I think I remember seeing replicas of Porter Rockwell's (who is probably who you are referring to) cut-down Navy sixes.

What do you know, you learn something new everyday. :D Hopefully.

Wes

[chaim]

Unnecessary post and I couldn't delete it. Sorry.