[gym]

I carried one back in the late 70's and 80's, because they were the only cartridge available in a small package , "walther ppk's", other, than a 38 snubby. In today’s world of viable 9mm packages, why carry a pistol that uses a round that is by most accounts, on the edge of acceptance as a good choice for home defense, or personal protection?

[HKUSP45C]

It's my humble opinion that you should carry what you're proficient with and WILL carry and practice with. The .380 on your hip beats thew .45 on your dresser. I, personally, like a larger round but, in the end, shot placement and weapon availability mean a whole lot more than caliber.

I carry a .45 half the time and a 9mm the other half depending on a few factors. I prefer the .45 but, in a gun fight, the real advantage will go to the person who actually has A gun.

Besides, people who argue about the effectiveness of .380 to stop an attack never do so when you're pointing one at them :D

[Blue Brick]

Bad choice.

[HKUSP45C]

Bad choice.

Care to elaborate on your reasoning or should we just take your word for it?

[TheDriver]

You answered your own question. 9mm platforms of the same size as 380s abound, and you are probably aware of the relative scarcity of 380 practice ammo.

Of course, Hydra-Shoks of any stripe are better than nothing....

[achildofthesky]

Better than a sharp stick in the eye. Rule 1, Have a gun, you are more likely to carry if it is easy to do so. If you live in a warm climate they are much easier to conceal. Maybe not the best choice power wise but I disagree with the "bad choice" comment. Light in weight, cheap to buy (ammo is harder to find FWIH) You are talking Self Defense at 30" or less not engaging targets at 50 yards wearing armor.

[makarovnik]

With the abundance of small 9mm pistols and high prices of .380 (if you can find it) I would think the 9mm would be a better choice.

Anything less than a proven military cartridge is pushing your luck.

With the modern +P loads available for the .380 they can be a viable self defense weapon. I personally don't like the recoil and muzzle flash of some of these ultra lightweight 9mm pistols. Small is good but ultra light can be painful to shoot.

That being said, since I have a good supply of .380 and a couple of reliable small package pistols to shoot it, I carry a .380. I practice and I'm a good enough shot to take someone down with my .380 but I do sometimes feel under-gunned.

I wouldn't want to be shot by even a .25 acp. There is a chance that one shot in the right area could kill or maim me.

[rcmodel]

There are simply NO 9mm guns as small & light as a Kel-Tec P3AT or Ruger LCP.
They fill a niche that no other bigger caliber can fill.

That being, a big enough gun to get the job done, that you can carry in your shirt pocket if you so desire, or need too.

If you move to a bigger, heavier .380 like a PPK/s or Bersa, you could have / should have got a 9mm the same size.

IMO: Anyone who says a .380 ACP with modern ammo is too under-powered to be a viable SD gun hasn't shot anything with one.

rc

[spd1303]

I think a .380 is a great choice. I just picked up the Ruger LCP for 200 bucks. but it all comes down to what you are comfortable with. If you won't practice with it or carry it then there is no point of having it.

[Jesse H]

I wouldn't shop for a .380 unless you're specifically looking for a pocket pistol.

Otherwise, with the Glock 27's and XD40sc's out there there's no reason to have 10 rounds of 40 in an easily concealable package. I stopped carrying my PPKs once I got an XD40sc.

[1KPerDay]

I just picked up the Ruger LCP for 200 bucks.
Wow... can't beat that price with a stick. :cool:

[SWDoc]

As has been said, the LCP/Kel-Tec is so small it is very easy to carry, which is good. Means you might actually HAVE a gun when you need it. Downside is that, at least for me, they are harder to shoot acurately. For bad-breath distance defensive work, I think the cartridge IS adequate. If you are able to carry something just a TAD bigger, go the 9mm route. More power, easier to shoot well, and more capacity. Powerball in a .380 looks like it will do the job, if needed, though.

Practice, practice, practice. I was shocked what happened to my accuracy at 5-7 yards when I started training w/ mouseguns. YMMV

Steve

[mljdeckard]

I think you answered your own question.

The .380 is a much better option than it used to be. There is ammo out now that is much better than it used to be.

Small guns are expert guns. They are harder to shoot accurately and have more felt recoil. When I talk to experienced shooters who want to keep it as an option, I shut up. But when I talk to newbies who just want to carry one for comfort and convenience I yell at them.

And yes, why bother when you can get a sub-compact Glock in 9mm, .40, .357 SIG, .45 GAP, .45 ACP, or 10mm?

I could see getting a tiny gun as a backup piece, but I wouldn't use a .380.

[gym]

Yes I did answer it for myself, your right. I put it out there only because it seems like a lot of folks are carrying 380's again. It seems like a few gun manufacturers are pushing the small easy to hide 380's and maybe newer shooters just aren't aware that the 380 is considerably less powerful than similar defensive load in 9mm. I have no problem with it as a backup, second gun scenario.

[MM60]

I have the Ruger LCP and have been carrying it for the past year or so. I have only fired it at the range a couple of times, but I was able to keep all shots on a 6" paper plate at 10 yards. The LCP is very light, weighing only 12oz with a loaded magazine, one round in the chamber, and including the weight of the Fobus evolution holster I use. It is small enough to be comfortable on my side when sitting in a vehicle, and it won't print even through a T-shirt. I keep two extra loaded magazines in my left pocket, in a pouch I made, and those are also very comfortable.

I keep my LCP loaded with Magtech Guardian Gold .380 ACP +P 85 Grain JHP, rated at:
Muzzle Velocity: 1082 fps
Muzzle Energy: 221 ft. lbs.

The Magtech Guardian Gold 9mm Luger +P 115 Grain JHP is rated at:
Muzzle Velocity: 1246 fps
Muzzle Energy: 397 ft. lbs.

The .380 is 86% as fast and 56% as powerful as the 9mm. That is a pretty big difference in power, but the .380 will still ruin or put an end to a badguy's day - especially with proper shot placement that I am able to achieve from at least 10 yards. Also, I carry my pistol every day, but I don't shoot a badguy every day. If I know I'll be in a questionable area, I'll often carry my Sig P226 in 9mm. Otherwise, I think the sacrifice in power is worth the every-day carrying comfort of the Ruger LCP .380.

[Werewolf]

A 100gr .380 ACP hollow point traveling at 1000 fps (which isn't all that much less powerful than a 115gr 9mm (same dia as a .380 ACP bullet) traveling at 1100 fps) may not be as good as a 230gr HP at 860 fps but it'll still do the job.

I, for one, wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one.

And I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut neither would anyone else.

Moral of story: Carry what you're comfortable with and shoot the best.

[Schofield3]

Better than a sharp stick in the eye.

:D I'll second that

[mljdeckard]

Getting a tub of cat urine dumped on me would ruin my day too. I certainly wouldn't want to volunteer for it. This doesn't mean I will pick it as a viable self-defense item.

The problem with the "I wouldn't want to get shot by it" argument is that it ignores the fact that when we are talking about pistol rounds, PARTICULARLY when they are fired from shorter barrels, ALL pistols are inferior to start with. You are talking about DEGREES of inferiority. Yes, there are rounds WORSE than the .380, but people say the same thing about THOSE rounds. In choosing from a pool of cartridges that suck, you are saying that you are ok with the bottom of the pool.

I'll say it more emphatically. Those who carry a .380 after much experience and training have made a decision based on experience that reflects their knowledge and abilities. Those who buy it for their first carry gun, or because they think that anything larger is just too uncomfortable to carry are rationalizing their unwillingness to make the necessary lifestyle and wardrobe changes necessary to protect their life.

[Just One Shot]

The .380 is no good, get a 9mm.

But wait!
The 9mm is no good, get a .40.

But wait!
The .40 is no good, get a .45.

But wait!
The .45 is no good get a 10mm.

But wait!
The 10mm is no good get a .50.

But wait!
The .50 is no good get a .223 AR.

But wait!

You get the idea. It doesn't matter what you decide to carry they'll always be detractor's who will say it the wrong choice for no other reason than it's not what they carry.

I have an LCP in .380, an XD 9mm, XD .40 SC and a 1911 .45 and I wouldn't want to be shot with any of them. With the new self defense ammo that is out there for the .380 it is more than enough to do the job provided you have the ability to put it where it needs to go to stop a threat.

If anyone still states that the .380 is too weak I'll trade shots with you.
:what:

But, I get the first shot!
:neener:

[meadmkr]

I have a Ruger LCP as well as a Glock 22. When I feel the need to carry, I most often take the LCP since the Mrs doesn't like seeing the G22 on my hip (or when attire dictates otherwise). For a so-called 'mouse gun' the LCP (and Keltec) are hard to beat for the size and price. I've never had anybody ask me if I was armed or notice the weapon as it and the pocket holster are very discrete. One person asked me if I had a lighter (the spare mag). I honestly don't feel underarmed with the .380 because I can shoot it well enough to hit my targets within 30 feet and the SD ammo offerings are lightyears better than what was around 7-10 years ago!

[miket]

With the modern +P loads available for the .380

You sure about that there, sport? Show us the official SAAMI specs/designation on .380 +p loading... :scrutiny:

[Glockman17366]

.380 is a fine cartridge for a smaller handgun. If you can carry a larger gun, that would be a better way to go...but that isn't always possible.
Also, a small gun one will carry sure beats a larger gun one leaves at home. Most of us East Coast guys cannot carry a larger gun without dressing around it. So, a smaller gun works.
Also, in most states one using a firearm for self defense must shoot to stop, not necessarily kill (although that may be the result). A small caliber, such as a .380, will stop an assailant at close quarters.

I carry a .380 as a back up weapon (mine is a Ruger LCP). Although I prefer carrying a Glock 19, I can't always do that. So, that .380 LCP (along with the .38 snubby in my pocket) works for me...

[wrs840]

...the SD ammo offerings are lightyears better than what was around 7-10 years ago!

Does that include Speer Gold Dot 90gr GDHP? (it's the only 380 defense round I can find).

Les

[mljdeckard]

Just one shot-

Glad we understand each other. You should always use the most powerful weapon you have access to at the moment. It is up to YOU to make sure that you are using the most powerful weapon you can handle.

[PX15]

FWIW:

Works for me... :D

Jesse

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_1364.jpg

[Deanimator]

For me, it's the absolute dead minimum. I wouldn't carry anything with less power under any circumstances.

I wouldn't carry .380acp if there were any way to carry something more powerful.

[snooperman]

If you do your part the .380 will do it too. There is great variety of ammo for this gun that will be fine for CCW. That said, it is more about shot placement than it is about caliber, it has been true for decades. Wild Bill Hickok shot two guys dead with the old Navy percussion revolver,36 caliber with much less energy than a .380 and he did it at about 38 yards too. He was very good with this gun and everyone knew back then. More .380s are are carried than any semiauto for CCW and for good reason, they are light. concealable, and powerful enough to do the job. Read the Strasbourg test Report and it will open your eyes to the effectiveness of the .380. My two cents.

[Tacbandit]

Quote:
I wouldn't want to be shot by even a .25 acp. There is a chance that one shot in the right area could kill or maim me."


I don't want to be shot with anything...BB's/airsoft included.....

[earlthegoat2]

It is OK for carry as long as you practice with it.

Dont be one of the masses that just drop it in their pocket and never shoot it.

[Tacbandit]

Quote:
"Dont be one of the masses that just drop it in their pocket and never shoot it."


+1, earl...
Give extra thought to ammo types as well as well...

[okespe04]

Not as good as a 9mm, .357 or .45 but 1000 times better that nothing. I pocket carry a .380 lcp all the time. Sometimes I carry a G19 iwb.

[hammerklavier]

HOLD IT! Who knows what the actual ballistics for a pocket 9mm vs a pocket .380 are, that's barrel length of 2.8 inches or less!??? I'll bet the differences are not as dramatic as they are for full sized pistols.

[DeepSouth]

There are simply NO 9mm guns as small & light as a Kel-Tec P3AT or Ruger LCP.
They fill a niche that no other bigger caliber can fill.

Add about a tenth of an inch, three oz's, and 800 more bucks, and the Rohrbaugh comes dang close. That said, I personally wouldn't carry a .380 or a 9mm, but that's just me.

http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/product/stealth_elite.jpg

[MedWheeler]

Other than to instigate, is there a purpose to the question? This one has been beat down quite a lot already. No one's convincing anyone else of anything new..

[searcher451]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the .380 round. If you can deliver it accurately, it will serve you just fine, exactly as it has many others through the years.

[BushyGuy]

.380 is minimum for self-defense, i sold my .32 acp cuz i wasnt satisfied with the tests i done with it, i wont carry anything less then a 9mm with at least 17 rounds in the magazine.

.380 is effective but its more costly then the 9mm, so i would opt for the 9mm over the .380 any day.

[Erik M]

You sure about that there, sport? Show us the official SAAMI specs/designation on .380 +p loading... :scrutiny:
well, Bucko, to my knowledge I have never seen SAAMI specs for .380 +p online. The manufactureer I referenced said that they added the designation to show that it was loaded past standard pressures.

[M&PVolk]

.380 was the backup carry for one of my friends in Vietnam. It dispatched many men.

Is the .380 ideal? In form factor, yes. It is not the ideal cartridge in power, but can be very effective if wielded correctly.

[KaintGetwright]

I bought my p3at a year ago to ease carrying in formal attire. Now I take the thing everywhere I go. The downside is that where I used to strap on the Glock, now I may forgo it. So instead of adding to my versatility, it just tempts me to do without the more powerful handgun. Not a real problem, just a mental trap.

As for larger 380s such as the Bersa, I bought one years ago, before I knew what a keltec was. I agree with the earlier poster that with the snappy recoil of defense loads in a blowback pistol, and a 7 +1 round count, they just don't have much of a place for the person buying new or for the first time. All of this is just exacerbated by the ammo situation.

[C-grunt]

Definitely not the most powerful round out there but it will still put a 1/3 inch hole through your chest.

Look at these test. All of them besides the light DPX actually dont do too bad out of the Kel Tec.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP.html
Becoming a cop and seeing shootings has really opened my eyes to the reality of shot placement trumps all.

-Had a coworker who got in two shootings. Both using his .45 230 grn HSTs. Both bad guys shot around 5 times with head shots. Both lived, he hit nothing really vital.

-Suicide with .22 revolver. DRT
-homicide 9mm ball. DRT

Two cases I can think of with "anemic rounds" but were placed in the vitals.

Theres more that I cant think of at the moment but every shooting I can think of the caliber didnt matter. If the placement was there it was deadly, if the placement was off not so much.

Well except for shotgun bird shot. That stuff fails almost every time, except a muzzle contact distance where it works sometimes.

[snooperman]

It seems as though if it is" bigger it must be badder" , and nothing can be further from the truth. There was a study done by retired law enforcement officers in Detroit a few years ago and they found that the officers today with their large capacity and large caliber handguns are not putting any more rounds in the "kill zone" than they did when they were armed with the venerable 38 special revolvers decades ago. It is an eye opener for sure.

[miket]

Most of us East Coast guys cannot carry a larger gun without dressing around it. So, a smaller gun works.

I'm in Connecticut and either IWB or pocket carry a Kahr PM9 with +p 9mm ammo and two spare mags every day. You're in PA. If anything, we can carry MUCH larger stuff a lot of the time during the winter! G19 or 1911 for those times up here. PM9 goes to BUG mode then. ;)

[miket]

Does that include Speer Gold Dot 90gr GDHP? (it's the only 380 defense round I can find).

Then you're not looking very hard. Federal Hydra-Shok comes in .380 as does Corbon DPX. The DPX was specifically designed for shorter barrels and the Kel-Tec P3AT was used as the test gun.

[chuckusaret]

-Had a coworker who got in two shootings. Both using his .45 230 grn HSTs. Both bad guys shot around 5 times with head shots. Both lived, he hit nothing really vital.

Poor choice to take out the average bad guy, most have hollow heads with no brains. I believe in the two tap method, pelvic area then COM.

Definitely not the most powerful round out there but it will still put a 1/3 inch hole through your chest.


Check out the Federal Hydra Shok .380

[bababooey32]

A quick search over at Box 'O Truth shows a "Small Guns" test. The .380 JHP penetrates 4 water jugs (shot from a Kel-Tec). The 9mm JHP out of a Makarov penetrates ony 2 jugs. Hmmmmm.

Ball ammo from both penetrated 5 jugs of water.

Certainly not scientific, though the guys at "Box" are fairly well respected for their systematic approach. I'm just not convinced that .380 is as bad as some claim.

[DAdams]

Works for me too when I want something very covert and light.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m22/dadams111/P9110038-2.jpg

Put it in the front or back pocket, jacket etc.

If I want to amp up I have other calibers available to better perhaps fit the environment I am traveling.

Compared with a S&W J Frame.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m22/dadams111/LWS-J-2.jpg

In this form factor I am never without "something" even if it is .380. ;)

[CorpITGuy]

Most of these threads could be reduced easily to a sampling of what the poster his/herself carries; with a few exceptions, of course.

A lot of folks who own .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9 MM, .357 Magnum etc., will tell you the .380 ACP is useless. They're making themselves feel better about their choice. People who carry .380 ACP all day every day will tell you it's the bee's knees. They're just as wrong.

The truth is, the folks who tell you it is the minimum you should use and is better than nothing are probably giving you the best answer.

Theory in practice: My primary carry is a S&W .357 Model 66-3. My secondary carry is a mid-size .380 (Bersa CC) for throwing in my pocket. It works great with dress pants. I live in the South, where 9 months out of the year, it's hard to conceal a large gun with a tucked in shirt. Folks up North or those in very rural areas don't understand this concept... they don't walk around all day in kakis and a button up shirt, tucked in.

Carry the most you can, but carry often.

[MCgunner]

The only reason to carry the .380 over the 9 or .38 IMHO is when a LCP or P3AT is all the gun you can manage to conceal. That really never happens with me. I kinda wanna pick one up, but it ain't that big a desire. :D

[wrs840]

Originally Posted by wrs840
Does that include Speer Gold Dot 90gr GDHP? (it's the only 380 defense round I can find).
Then you're not looking very hard. Federal Hydra-Shok comes in .380 as does Corbon DPX.

In stock, I meant. It's the only .380 defense round I can find anywhere that is currently in stock and available for purchase.

Les

[MCgunner]

A quick search over at Box 'O Truth shows a "Small Guns" test. The .380 JHP penetrates 4 water jugs (shot from a Kel-Tec). The 9mm JHP out of a Makarov penetrates ony 2 jugs. Hmmmmm.

Just in case you don't know, 9x18 makarov ain't that much more than a .380, 260 ft lbs vs 200, about. My 9x19 Kel Tec puts up 410 ft lbs with a 115 grain Hornady XTP/JHP. That's pretty close to most .357 magnums with 2" barrels and a lot less recoil and muzzle blast with more firepower.

I have a .380, but I never really carry the thing. I just don't trust it to expand AND penetrate, though that Hornady personal defense stuff looks pretty good if you rely on the caliber. I can tell ya this, I wouldn't wanna be shot center mass with a .380. I just feel a little more comfy with a 9mm +P, a real 9, not a Makarov. I carry a .38 special a lot, though, +P is about equal to the Makarov in energy. But, the advantage is more penetration through more bullet weight/SD using 158 grain bullets. Any of these rounds can save your life and really, it's all in the platform you can comfortably shoot and carry 24/7. For me, it's the little KT P11. But, if all you can carry in your daily attire comfortably 24/7 is a LCP, go for it. Being armed 24/7 is more important than caliber IMHO, and being able to shoot well with what you choose. One thing's for sure, these tiny little .380s being as small and light as the old .25s back in the day, we do have much better choices now days. :D

[miket]

Are you looking on-line?

[Lonestar49]

...

380acp is better than nothing, but with all the 9mm sc's out there now, I would urge anyone to get a closed-breach action sc 9mm and have more punch, less recoil vs the sharp/snappy recoil of most 380's that use the blow-back action using a much longer and stiffer return spring vs the shorter, softer, return-springs found in sc 9mm's such as my SA EMP 1911 9mm, SAO, 9+1.

Not to mention maintenance needed in the very short run using the dirty blow-back action of most 380's vs the reliability over the long run using a closed breach action of either 380acp or 9mm.

*Most 380acp using a blow-back action are demanding of near perfection vs the very forgiving nature of the many sc 9mm's out there.

*I know, that is why I sold my Sig P232 SL 380 and went with the 9mm EMP 1911 sc and have never looked back.

As I said, given all the nice, dependable, forgiving, 9mm sc's out there, that would be the better choice, bar none.


Ls

[miket]

Again... Kahr PM9. 'Nuff said. :cool:

[NMGonzo]

All my guns are killing machines.

Me, on the other hand ... I am hoping that I will not be tested as such.

[wrs840]

Are you looking on-line?

Natchez, CTD, Midway, Sportsmans Guide, Wiedners, Impact, all have no SD .380. Ammunition To Go has Speer Gold Dot only and no other SD .380. One of my local Pawn Shops has a good supply of overpriced Speer Gold Dot, and a very little 90gr JHP Cor-Bon.

Les

[miket]

I see...that sucks. It's been a long time since I shopped for defensive .380 ammo since I stopped carrying my P3ATs and started carrying a small 9mm (Kahr PM9). Glad I have all my .380 mags loaded and several boxes still in the safe.

[GRIZ22]

I still carry a 380 sometimes. It's the bottom of the power scale in my book. But even having a 25 is better than nothing (you might be able to bluff your way out). I think the 380 has been overshadowed by compact 9mms to a large degree. I had a Beretta 84 which I carried in teh 80s. I got a 669 which is about the same size and a full 9mm parabellum.

There are always some who want to carry the smallest gun possible (whether or not they can hit anything with it). This has brought a rebirth of the 380 by Kel Tec, Ruger, Taurus, and others.

[miket]

Actually, these little guns are pretty damned accurate, if you practice with them.

[sarge14072]

All hand gunners know one thing. The person who is proficient with what they carry and use good solid tactics usually prevail, There is tons of info out there on tactics and how to practice. In the end it's not the caliber, it's the shooter. I'll go against any bad guy (most don't practice) with my .380 and the element of surprise. Andit is very important that you carry what you are comfortable with. Hydra shocks carry a mean little punch. Finding ANY ammo right now to practice with is tough. Just my humble opinion.

[MCgunner]

Actually, these little guns are pretty damned accurate, if you practice with them.

Very true, surprisingly accurate, often within that 4" at 25 yard service gun minimum that some gun authors tout. And, the LCP and P3AT, at least, are NOT BLOWBACKS! They are locked breach guns, delay blow back, 1911 JMB design.

I cringe when someone says they ain't accurate, but they're not supposed to be, or, "they're belly guns". That's an excuse for poor marksmanship. You need to PRACTICE cause some of these little farts are quite good even at 25 yards even compared to bigger guns.

[ZX10Aviator]

MCgunner
Very true, surprisingly accurate, often within that 4" at 25 yard service gun minimum that some gun authors tout. And, the LCP and P3AT, at least, are NOT BLOWBACKS! They are locked breach guns, delay blow back, 1911 JMB design.

I cringe when someone says they ain't accurate, but they're not supposed to be, or, "they're belly guns". That's an excuse for poor marksmanship. You need to PRACTICE cause some of these little farts are quite good even at 25 yards even compared to bigger guns.

Bingo, some people cant hit a target with a rifle and a bench rest..

Accuracy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6TVO-jONoM

[snooperman]

I carry the Colt detective IWB but have a great deal of respect for the .380 .As many have said, It is about shot placement and not so much about caliber size. As I mentioned earlier, one William Hickok was very good with the 36 Navy percussion revolvers and would not have anything larger like his adversaries and for good reason. He knew that his gun would do the job. He was very calm and cool and took his time and knew where to put each shot. Unfortunately for the ones who were on the other end of his shots, could not employ this concept and are lying in boot hill. Several of his kills were more than 50 paces. He stands as a testament to the concept of "know your gun" and practice often.

[miket]

Yup, and ol' Bill lived to the grand old age of 40 and was killed...with a .45. ;)

I do like the little pocket poppers, myself...

[ZX10Aviator]

Just checked my local sporting store, .380 ammo all day long, cheap to person protection all in stock. :)

[snooperman]

Which no one respects as he would not face Hickok and had to shoot him from behind. He got his though as no one respects the coward.

[Erik M]

Walther pk380. locked breech .380. First Edition too. its looks sold me.

[Guns and more]

In an emergency, the .380 in your pocket is far superior to the .45 in your safe.

some people cant hit a target with a rifle and a bench rest..

You've been watching me shoot?

[keltec43]

I have tested on my oun the 380 with pork shoulder ammo gold dots, silver tips, hydro shocks, Cor bon hollow points, 9mm efmj they all have a common denominator same results bone shaderd, muscle destroid penetration the same

[keltec43]

I feel confident that if I shoot anyone in self def.... I will ring out the first 3 shots I will be victorius It boils down to shot placement and who draws first and shoots the first 3 rds in a defence situation.

[engineer88]

After many hours or personal research I landed on .32ACP as my minimum for primary caliber. 95% of internet commandos will be mad at me for that. However I practice 2 to COM 1 to head (AKA: triple taps). If the first salvo don't do it another 2 COM and 1 head will follow it and so on until the threat stops.

Any caliber that penetrates 8-12 inches will take care of business in my opinion. Will a .45 do it faster? Definitely. But sometimes I cannot risk being noticed (work) so it is not an option for me to carry my .45 and depending on my slacks the j-frame in the pocket may not be possible either.

Days like that I feel fine carrying a P3AT or P32 with an extra mag and an NAA mini revolver in .22LR or .22WMR in my other pocket or on the ankle as backup.

Heck if i am just sitting around the house, you may catch me with a lowly .25ACP or the .22 Magnum mini revolver as my only armament at the time. :eek:

So is the .380 enough for me? Yeah, it is plenty in my reckoning.

[makarovnik]

I like my P32 with a 10rd mag and an extra mag in my belt. It will get the job done at close range.

[woad_yurt]

I'm a convenience freak so I carry a P3AT. I think .380 is a great choice because, in this gun it's just so carry-comfortable. I can always carry.

[MCgunner]

I can't see carrying the .32 when you can carry the .380 in virtually the same sized gun. I scale up just a little, though, and have no problem with a KT P11 in my pocket all day. Every time I run a shootout through my mind, I think whether I'd want that gun (helps that I'm very confident with it) or my .38 or my .380. The 9 wins my imaginary shoot outs every time over the other choices. LOL If for nothing else, it's very accurate and it carries 10+1. You should carry what you know you can hit with and you are confident in.

[miket]

bone shaderd, muscle destroid

This does not help your credibility one bit. :rolleyes:

[logical]

A short barrel 9mm using even standard pressure ammo will throw a 124 grain bullet faster than the same length .380 will throw a 90 grain bullet. Of course 9mm is better. Is .380 good enough?...why even ask when something better can be carried?

My buddy the cheap .380 guy has gone from a Guardian to a Keltec to a LCP to a Kahr in the last 5 years. Every step of the way he's paid top dollar when they first came out and sold at a loss. I've stuck with my 9mm Rohrbaugh the whole time...he's probably spent more than i have and still isn't satisfied.

There are plenty of balistics comparisons out there on the net if anybody wants numbers to punch into a calculator or something.

[miket]

Your buddy should have skipped the LCP as it's 99% the same thing as the P3AT. Guardian to P3AT, yes...BIG difference in weight. P3AT to Kahr 9mm (PM9?), yes...BIG difference in power. But the LCP "step"? That's wasted money right there. ;)

[snooperman]

That is that the .380 has been around for more than a hundred years and there are more firearms in that caliber today for CCW than at any other time and more ammo choices as well. That said, the research shows that shot placement is far more important than the caliber size. Time and again we see people buy large guns in hopes of having the largest gun that will blow a big hole in someone. They usually, including myself, find that they are a real pain to carry all day and resort to something like what MC Gunner has, a light carry KT P11 or a snubnose 38 special like I carry or a fine reliable .380 in the pocket or IWB . We are not going on the offense and we are not in the military or police duty. No one can be mugged raped or robbed at 25 yards. Our encounters for the most part are going to be a few feet and the .380 is quite adequate if the person practices and is proficient with it. Now, I have rambled on too much and I need to get ready for the deer hunt tomorrow with my grandson.

[miket]

Even the great John Moses Browning finally ended up carrying his Colt 1903 in .380. Or maybe it was in .32. Either way, "The One" didn't even carry his own 1911/.45 that everyone is so "ga ga" over...

[SwampWolf]

Which no one respects as he would not face Hickok and had to shoot him from behind. He got his though as no one respects the coward.

What in the world does "respect" have to do with it? Dead is dead, whether you died "respectively" or not. :rolleyes:

[SwampWolf]

There are simply NO 9mm guns as small & light as a Kel-Tec P3AT or Ruger LCP.
They fill a niche that no other bigger caliber can fill.

That being, a big enough gun to get the job done, that you can carry in your shirt pocket if you so desire, or need too.

If you move to a bigger, heavier .380 like a PPK/s or Bersa, you could have / should have got a 9mm the same size.

IMO: Anyone who says a .380 ACP with modern ammo is too under-powered to be a viable SD gun hasn't shot anything with one.

I don't think anybody has put it better than this yet. Imo, the key factor is: where do you intend to carry your pistol? If it's in a pocket, then small and light carries the most weight (pun intended :)). If the pistol is to be carried in a holster, then many more options are opened, all favoring something bigger in terms of caliber and capacity.

[miket]

If it's in a pocket, then small and light carries the most weight (pun intended ). If the pistol is to be carried in a holster, then many more options are opened, all favoring something bigger in terms of caliber and capacity.

It should STILL be carried in a holster, even in a pocket.

But, I agree with your basis. I just have to laugh when I see people asking about IWB holsters for a frickin' P3AT of all things. :uhoh:

[GRIZ22]

Actually, these little guns are pretty damned accurate, if you practice with them.

I agree they are accurate. I could max the qual course with a Kel Tec. The point I was making is many who really can't shoot well with anything will carry them.

[KAK]

We all hear this one:
"I refuse to carry anything with less then a .4 unless its a 10mm. Everyone who carries anything less is an idiot."

I love 380... because it fits in small guns. I like small guns as a LAST RESORT... If you cant discreetly carry anything else on that given day then go with the 380 pocket pistol and a blade. :evil:

I try my Glock 22 first.
if it is too big...
I try my Glock 27 with the 15 rd mag and sleeve.
if its too big...
I try the Glock 27 with the 12 round mag that has the finger extension
if its too big...
I try the Glock 27 with the factory 10 round flat base mag.
if it is too big...
Its P3at time!!!!! (gonna check out the Taurus TCP Ti and see whats up though)
if its too big... im not wearing enough clothes.

[John Wayne]

If you can carry something only slightly larger without any additional difficulty, you should do it. A DAO .38 or a ultra-compact 9mm isn't much bigger than a small .380, but the controls are much more easy to operate.

Now, go point a P3AT-sized .380 at the mirror.

Now do the same with a snubnose revolver.

Assuming you can carry either without difficulty, which is more of a visual deterent?

[TimboKhan]

There are simply NO 9mm guns as small & light as a Kel-Tec P3AT or Ruger LCP.
They fill a niche that no other bigger caliber can fill.

"Niche" is a great word, because that is exactly why I own a .380. From the perspective of ballistics or end performance or stopping power or whatever else you might bring up, the answer is No. Not a great choice. But, from the perspective of either going without a gun or carrying something like a P3AT, which is smaller than any 9mm you can name short of a Rohrbaugh, the .380 is fantastic. I should also add that with appropriate bullet choice, I believe it is sufficient to get the job done.

As a side note, my dad owns a Beretta .380 that I think is too big to be a great carry piece, but boy, does it ever shoot good! I can't hardly miss with that thing!

Assuming you can carry either without difficulty, which is more of a visual deterent?

I couldn't care less about what kind of visual deterrence my gun offers. If it is out and pointed at someone, they are likely either about to get shot or in the act of getting shot. I should think that lead flying downrange is enough of a deterrent in and of itself, regardless of caliber. That isn't tough guy talk, either. If I get to the point where I feel I need to aim a gun at another human being, I am scared for my life, plain and simple. At that point, all hope of a peaceful resolution is gone, because I know myself well enough to know that A: I will walk away from a conflict if I can, B: I will talk my way out if walking doesn't work, and C: I am more than happy to fight if A and B fail. If all three of those things fail, I guarantee you, let me repeat in all caps, GUARANTEE you, that the situation is beyond repair and I am in deep trouble.

[Guns and more]

9mm platforms of the same size as 380s abound,
What?
Maybe a small 9mm. is equal to a large .380.
If you are quoting the Rohrbach R-9, okay it's small. But that's all it has going for it.
In a affordable 9mm. I think the Kahr PM-9 is a winner. I have one.
But I carry my Sig P-238 because it's so much easier.

It's true, a .45 in the safe is a poor choice over a .380 in your pocket.

I'm convinced that when the shooting starts, the bad guy ain't gonna say, "Excuse me, but are you really thinking of shooting me with a .380? Ha!"

[Grey Morel]

I would and have carried a 380 in the past.

I carry a 32 today, because its the most convenient to carry of what I currently own.

In reality any center-fire cartridge, excluding perhaps the 25acp, will give you a large enough wound channel sans any kind of hydro/kinetic/static/buzz-word shock. That's true of a 32 and its true of a 45.

The "studies" proponents of large handguns (and thus opponents of small) use to justify their positions have been continually discredited for going on 20 years now (Marshal & Sanow, momentum theory, ect)

The strait skinny of this issue is that you need to hit something important to bring someone down with a handgun: that depends on YOU, not 1/20'th of an inch on either side of your projectile.

[Philo_Beddoe]

I carried one back in the late 70's and 80's, because they were the only cartridge available in a small package , "walther ppk's", other, than a 38 snubby. In today’s world of viable 9mm packages, why carry a pistol that uses a round that is by most accounts, on the edge of acceptance as a good choice for home defense, or personal protection?


Because the affordable 380 pocket pistols are still considerably smaller then the affordable 9mm subcompacts.

Its quite easy to stuff a ruger LCP in your pocket, not so much with a glock 26

[miket]

Because the affordable 380 pocket pistols are still considerably smaller then the 9mm subcompacts.

Its quite easy to stuff a ruger LCP in your pocket, not so much with a glock 26

Kahr PM9... $525 out the door for mine. In the G26 price range and MUCH smaller. ;)

[miket]

Now, go point a P3AT-sized .380 at the mirror.

Now do the same with a snubnose revolver.

Assuming you can carry either without difficulty, which is more of a visual deterent?

You know, I've thought about that before. The P3AT does look like a toy. I've read stories of small pocket guns being pulled and not being taken seriously because they looked like toys. I know...just shoot the guy, right? He's not going to care then. BUT, visual deterrent or not...I'd much rather have the guy run off at the sight of a gun rather than seeing a "pea shooter", advance and FORCE me to shoot him. Not that I really care about shooting the guy... It's just all that messy and expensive legal/criminal stuff that might very well manifest itself afterwards. :eek:

[Philo_Beddoe]

Kahr PM9... $525 out the door for mine. In the G26 price range and MUCH smaller.




You got lucky, the MSRP for that gun is $924 compared to $364 for the LCP.

The LCP is still noticably smaller.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/1075259-post6.html

[miket]

No, I didn't get lucky. ANYONE who pays MSRP for anything is an IDIOT. :rolleyes:

And, it's not smaller by much. I have my PM9 right next to my P3AT, which we ALL know is 99% the same as the LCP. It's just a tad shorter in OAL and a tad shorter in height. About 30% thinner, yes, but it's not THAT much smaller overall. Either one rides in my front pocket just fine. :cool:

I would have taken my own pictures, but the ones in the DC link provided show my point just fine. The author even makes comments about there not being that much difference "in real world" size and/or pocket carry.

[Philo_Beddoe]

No, I didn't get lucky. ANYONE who pays MSRP for anything is an IDIOT

It still normally retails for at least twice what the LCP does and usually some change.

Buds has the lcp for $300, the PM9 for $662.

[miket]

Maybe so, but you get twice the gun. ;) And $662 is STILL too high for the base model PM9 like mine. Standard sights with bare stainless slide. $525 new OTD and...at a Florida gun show, to boot...

[Philo_Beddoe]

I do not think the PM9 is "twice the gun" at all, I have a LCP and it has been 100% reliable with all loads.

I can get the magazine + chamber into the "A" zone at 15 yards quite easily too.

And LCP's sometimes go for $250, I am sure the PM9 is a great gun, but I dont think its twice the gun the LCP is. :)

[NMGonzo]

Yesterday I carried a .357

Today I have a .380

Both make more or less the same hole.

[Legionnaire]

The PM9 is a great gun. And it's small. But for me, it's still too big for pocket carry: IWB is better. LCP is a true pocket rocket.

[KBintheSLC]

Considering that I sometimes carry a 32 acp, I suppose I would feel fine using a 380.

[miket]

I do not think the PM9 is "twice the gun" at all,

Maybe, but in pocket form...let's see... REAL, usable dovetailed sights which can easily be swapped for night sights. Stainless steel slide, barrel and internals. Polygonal rifling. VERY smooth trigger. An actual slide lock that isn't just finger activated. AND fires 9x19 +p all day long. And a smidge bigger than the LCP/P3AT. Yeah...I see your point. ;)

I DO have two P3ATs, which are reliable, and they are fun to shoot. I used to carry them all the time. Now, never since getting the PM9, which I would have done in the first place, but I never ran across one in person. My next .380 pocket popper WILL be the Kahr P380...just because... After all, it has ALL the advantages listed above for the PM9 except the 9x19 part. Size is comparable to the other two. :cool:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/AlbertD/p380.jpg

[KevininPa]

I frequently carry a Sig 232 in stainless. I can pocket carry in the right pants or shorts. Sometimes it's IWB with a High Noon Tuckable. Heck, sometimes it's replaced by a snub. I had a Bersa before that, same pointability, only replaced it with the 232 because I wanted all stainless. My rounds are 100 grain FMJs behind 3.3 of Bullseye for around 950 FPS. I'm happy with it and feel it will save my bacon as long as I do my part. Being aware of what's going on around you helps a lot too. That really saved my bacon a time or two. The weapon between the ears is the most important.

[SwampWolf]

Originally Posted by SwampWolf
If it's in a pocket, then small and light carries the most weight (pun intended ). If the pistol is to be carried in a holster, then many more options are opened, all favoring something bigger in terms of caliber and capacity.

It should STILL be carried in a holster, even in a pocket.

I absolutely agree. I've long been an advocate for using a pocket holster with a pocket gun.

[MedWheeler]

I carry a Bersa Thunder in .380. It's bigger than the "keychain" guns offered in this caliber, which might help in the "visual deterrent" aspect. However, I'm certainly prepared to use it should an attacker not be so deterred. The larger size also contributes to two more positive traits in comparison to those smaller guns: easier "pointability" due to its better-fitting grip and longer sight radius, and improved kinetics due to the longer barrel. It also offers one more round.
I do not in any way claim it's as good as a 9x19. I do not carry a similarly-sized 9x19 pistol simply because I do not own one. At this time, I feel my carry needs met by this gun and by my .38 snubnose revolver, which also gets frequently toted around, so I'm not in the market for a nine..

[stealth]

Dont forget the KT PF-9.

- Lighter + Thinner than the Kahr.
- 3 Dot Adjustable sights.
- Price competitive w/ the P3AT-LCP.

[sonier]

i like the idea of 380 being a pocket pistol, if i had a .380 i would be in my pocket, and next to it would be either 1911 or a colt python. i think it makes a PERFECT lightweight backup pistol.
i knew a guy who got shot 3 times with a .25acp not much happened just lot of surgery. regardless he was drunk belligerent and made someone scared for her life so she shot him. and ill tell you what,,,IT STOPPED HIM

my point is its better than nothing, id rather have a 25acp than a bb gun, a 380 over a .25, a .40 over a .380, and so on and so on.
a bb gun can ruin a intruders day if you can shoot him in both eyes ;)

[NMGonzo]

Today I carry my .40

If warmer or dress more formal carry my .380

If shorts .357 snubby