45-70 vs. 12 ga. Coach gun


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Tamlin
November 9, 2009, 10:57 PM
I did a search on this, and most all of what came up was acceptable defense against bears, for both types of gun. Have been thinking about picking up a 45-70 guide gun as a defensive woods gun. I also really like the looks of the coach gun. This is something I would take camping and throw in a back scabbard for hiking (whichever gun I would get would be the 18"-ish bbl model). This gun would not be a designated hunting gun; it would be my go-to defensive gun. The obvious advantages of the 45-70 are range and capacity; the advantages of the coach gun are price and versatility of ammo. What do you guys think? Are two shots from a coach gun enough in a defensive situation? From what I've looked at, I can get a Stoeger coach gun for around $350; a Marlin 45-70 I'm looking at is around $700.

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bad_aim_billy
November 9, 2009, 11:14 PM
For a hiking gun, the obvious choice is neither.

For a strictly defensive gun, either would work, but I'd give the edge to the 12.

Avenger29
November 9, 2009, 11:25 PM
Uh, why not a pump shotgun instead of the coach gun?

saturno_v
November 9, 2009, 11:28 PM
Better than these two, for strictly wildlife defence, would be a pump shotgun, either a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870.

I would pick the Mossberg...cheaper then that Remington, tough as nails, and it shoots 3" shells....5 + 1 capacity

The Mossy 500 combo (one 28 vented rib barrel and one 20" defence barrel) often goes on sale for $229, at least in my area.


3 Inches Brenneke Black Magic 600 gr. hardened slugs are hard to beat at close range.

Maverick223
November 10, 2009, 12:03 AM
Defense against what? If bear is not on the menu, then I would skip both and opt for a lighter intermediate cartridge like the 30-30, .454/.45LC, .44Mag, or perhaps even .357Mag. Any of those will be far easier to carry, hold more ammunition, point better, and have all of the necessary power that you might need for defense. They are also generally cheaper, less expensive to shoot, and have less recoil. If bear is a possibility I would opt for a .45-70GG (with well constructed bullets) with an honorable mention to a pump scattergun with Brenneke Black Magic Slugs as sat_v suggests. The coach gun seems useless other than a "fun gun" or a HD type shotgun, also the Stoeger's that I have seen (both new and "broken in") have been exceptionally stiff and the finish work looked to be of poor quality. :)

TankHand
November 10, 2009, 09:42 PM
I have a CCL and routinely bowhunt for mule deer in bear territory in Central UT. I carry a .44mag in hopes, ;) er I mean in case a bear accosts me in the woods, and necessitates a fast dispatch, same as the cougar that I keep hoping for. If I were in the backcountry of Alaska and only could have one weapon to fend for my life, it would without question be my Rem 870 12ga. slugs, buckshots, birdshot, versatility lends itself to survival!:D

gunsandreligion
November 10, 2009, 09:56 PM
The guide gun is the best choice for bear defense.

Robert
November 10, 2009, 10:59 PM
Between the two you listed I would go with the Guide Gun. I own a Marlin 1895G and have carried it countless miles through the mountains here with ease. The 45-70 can be had in loadings from mild (most factory loads) to wild (Buffalo Bore), or you can load you own. Light enough for me to carry around all day, short and quick handling I find it to be a superb mountain gun. But that is just me.

MAKster
November 11, 2009, 12:31 PM
If you want it for bear defense I assume you would be using shotgun slugs. Shooting slugs out of a coach gun would be brutal on your shoulder.

MJR007
November 11, 2009, 05:10 PM
Get a fat dog you can out run....

ArmedBear
November 11, 2009, 05:26 PM
I agree with saturno_v.

I really like Marlin lever rifles, but if what you want is an inexpensive, quick-pointing multi-shot gun to stop bears, a Mossberg slug gun will do the job really well. You won't be as afraid of dinging it up, either.:)

The Guide Gun is, well, a guide gun. It's made for two purposes: "backing up" a hunter with a quick 100 yard rifle shot, and stopping an attack from something like a bear. You only need one of those functions, which is to point quickly sling heavy lead slugs at a nearby attacking animal that's only getting closer.

There aren't any bears in San Diego, since I left, though.

Fiv3r
November 11, 2009, 05:55 PM
Well how far out in the wilds are you going? Are you worried about bear in their natural state or the kind that poke around the edges of man's domain looking for scraps?

The Guide Gun is sweet. I would love to justify one. However, the price for the amount of use it would get is pretty unjustifiable for me.
While not a hiking gun (for hiking I pack a .357 or 9mm since the biggest critter i might stumble across is a bobcat), I have a cheap Stoeger Condor Outback O/U for my camp/truck gun. it packs flatter than a S/S on a pack (when humping it to the campsite) and is about an inch and half shorter than an 18" barrel pump, eats anything, nickle finish keeps rust at bay with little care, and pretty cheap if I lose it or break it. I figure that with my pistol at my hip, should I ever need a long arm and can get to it in time, two shots of appropriate ammo is about all i would get off on my luckiest of days.

I've been pleased with it.

ArmedBear
November 11, 2009, 06:19 PM
Really good points about the Outback.

Do you know if it's got a mechanical or inertia trigger selector?

suppress-it
November 11, 2009, 11:19 PM
Marlin Guide Gun will handle anything that you can throw at it - up to and including the Big Bears...especially with the awesome GARRETT 45-70 420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS. Go here:
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

Daniel
November 11, 2009, 11:21 PM
Both would work.

I'd go for the coach gun for the simple reason of price if it's only going to be used for this application (one plus is that it can easily be broken down into two pieces until you're ready to move into the woods). The .45-70 can be used for longer range deer hunting if that's your thing, and target shooting too (.45-70 is fun to shoot at long range with modest hand loads).

The recoil of slugs isn't that bad I've found, and you can get off two very, very quick shots with the coach gun. I know some people say that Foster slugs aren't all that good due to their poor penetration, but bears aren't all that thick skinned, just big, so your typical Foster slug will easily reach the vital organs and cause extreme damage to them.

Foster slugs will cause more tissue damage than a .45-70 [for the most part], as they really, really expand.

Tamlin
November 12, 2009, 12:32 AM
Thanks for all the input. I realize a pump has many advantages over a coach gun; it's just that the coach gun looks so cool! I do a lot of hiking/camping, and bear would be a legitimate concern (I travel out of the San Diego area). Also, I haven't yet, but am planning at some point, to travel to Alaska and hopefully Africa. Again, this wouldn't be a hunting rifle, but strictly the gun to grab if ever needed. I suppose I'm gonna just have to come up with reasons to justify one of each! :D

Maverick223
November 12, 2009, 01:01 AM
I do a lot of hiking/camping, and bear would be a legitimate concernThen a .45-70 guide gun would be my first choice. In Africa I think you may be better served by a .375H&H or larger rather than a .45-70 or the like, but .45-70s have been employed successfully. I believe your main concern (in Africa) would be large cat rather than the larger beasts anyway (they are easy to see from a distance, and from all accounts will not disturb you if they do not feel threatened). :)

rondog
November 12, 2009, 01:06 AM
Get a fat dog you can out run....

Man, you ain't right!

saturno_v
November 12, 2009, 01:07 AM
375 H&H is ridiculously overkill for large cats...even many PHs admit that.

The king of large cats defence in Africa is the good old 303 British....I'm not talking about $50,000 canned hunts for fat rich foreigners...I'm talking about locals.
180 gr. soft point round nose and you are in business.

Dr.Who
November 12, 2009, 01:10 AM
I have property in Wisconsin with bears on it. We see the signs and the dens. Whenever I'm there, I'm carring my 686 .357. Have yet to have a problem with the black bears. They tend to stay away from us. Just this year, a 400 pounder was taken within a few miles of the property....

I would suggest a side arm and not a rifle or shotgun as a defensive gun. The main reason is the size. The side arm will earier to wear and not being in the way while you go on your buisness. If your worried about the caliber get one of the .460v's

Maverick223
November 12, 2009, 10:32 AM
375 H&H is ridiculously overkill for large cats...even many PHs admit that.I am sure that is true, but you won't be here to complain about "underkill", and from all accounts you need hydrostatic shock (which the .45-70 generally does not have due to low velocity) for a reliable and quick kill. So while I am sure that a .303Brit, .30-06, et cetera would be fine I would rather have a bit more. I would not feel undergunned with a .338WM but anything short of that would leave me a bit wanting.

:)

saturno_v
November 12, 2009, 10:46 AM
I am sure that is true, but you won't be here to complain about "underkill", and from all accounts you need hydrostatic shock (which the .45-70 generally does not have due to low velocity) for a reliable and quick kill. So while I am sure that a .303Brit, .30-06, et cetera would be fine I would rather have a bit more. I would not feel undergunned with a .338WM but anything short of that would leave me a bit wanting.



During a charge, the only thing you need is a CNS shot...or at least a bone breaking hit to slow the critter down for you to hit him again...it doesn't matter how you get it (caliber wise)...anything short than that it will get you in trouble...a 460 Weatherby to the guts is not going to stop an enraged African lion

Maverick223
November 12, 2009, 10:59 AM
During a charge, the only thing you need is a CNS shot...or at least a bone breaking hit to slow the critter down for you to hit him again...it doesn't matter how you get it (caliber wise)...anything short than that it will get you in trouble.A missed CNS shot will land you in big trouble either way...but I would rather have a chance with a larger projectile that will slam through more bone and tissue and therefore give a better chance of stopping or slowing the critter.

:)

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 11:22 AM
A missed CNS shot will land you in big trouble either way...but I would rather have a chance with a larger projectile that will slam through more bone and tissue and therefore give a better chance of stopping or slowing the critter.

There's a problem with that. Animals don't stop just because they're dead.

They're more like the characters at the end of a Shakespeare tragedy.

When I shot my bison, its lungs were turned to soup. It only took one shot to kill it. But it didn't drop right away. Elk hunters, in particular, tell stories of animals running off into the mountains at full speed, but when they were finally dead, the hunters would find that their hearts were completely exploded by a rifle shot.

Once a large predator has committed to "fight" instead of "flight", it's not going to stop because you shoot it. It's just going to get more committed until it's physically unable to attack.

From what I can tell, animals experience "fight or flight" at a much higher level than we do. A prey animal will run when it's already dead, and a predator will attack when it's already dead.

I've watched my hunting dog chase birds while leaving blood trails from his feet. That night, at home, he cried endlessly until I just held him and comforted him. He was in a lot of pain. But while he was pumped up on epinephrine in "predator" mode, he felt NOTHING.

The Stoeger Coach Gun doesn't look that cool.

THIS looks that cool:
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=280&lang=en

Maverick223
November 12, 2009, 11:43 AM
There's a problem with that. Animals don't stop just because they're dead.I understand that...but the more bone and tissue you destroy the better your chance of hitting something that will disable the animal (by disabling or slowing motor function).

The Stoeger Coach Gun doesn't look that cool...THIS looks that cool:That does look cool. Is it a true sidelock? I know that I don't really want to hear the answer...but how much? Both the 9.3x74R and .45-70 are looking really sexy.

:)

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 12:10 PM
Of course it's a true sidelock. Pedersoli doesn't do cheesy.:)

The price depends on whether you want the 20 Gauge barrel set also, and whether you want Standard or Deluxe.

Before looking, remember that, for a double rifle, this is a bargain price.:D

http://www.shooterschoice.com/pedersoli/pedersoli.htm

Maverick223
November 12, 2009, 01:57 PM
About what I figured...still a nice double, and like you said not a bad price for what you get. Of course that still doesn't mean I can afford one. :banghead:

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 02:01 PM
That's the Deluxe model for $2000 more (fancier metal and high-grade walnut). They throw in the case with it (it's probably a pretty nice case, that would retail for at least $300, about average for a leather-covered case for a breakdown gun).

If you want to see the Law of Diminishing Marginal Rates of Return, check out O/U shotguns. A nice one will run maybe $2000. The fancier versions of the same gun can hit several times as much, without being substantially different.:)

Maverick223
November 12, 2009, 02:04 PM
That's the Deluxe model for $2000 more (fancier metal and high-grade walnut).I noticed that later...then changed my post so I wouldn't look like an idiot. :p ...but you caught me. :o

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 02:10 PM
Oh no, I still think it's a hell of a lot of money for nicer grain and different metal finish (especially considering that some companies like Beretta charge more for CCH than nickel).

rondog
November 12, 2009, 02:17 PM
Dang, that Pedersoli double is perty! A little pricey for my water-jug plinking though.

Maverick223
November 12, 2009, 02:18 PM
especially considering that some companies like Beretta charge more for CCH than nickelHmm, I didn't realize that...I like color case hardened better myself, at least with a rifle like that one.

:)

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