Marines choose new weapon


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RedAlert
November 10, 2009, 05:17 PM
Recent news blurb from Janes:



Welcome to Jane's Land Forces News Briefs

Heckler & Koch in pole position for USMC rifle contract
The US Marine Corps (USMC) has selected Heckler & Koch (H&K) Defense to supply its 5.56 mm Infantry Automatic Rifle (IAR), according to industry sources. It is understood that the HK416 IAR variant has been preferred to two offerings from Colt Defense and FNH USA's SCAR (special operations forces combat assault rifle) variant following approximately eight months of trials

[first posted to http://idr.janes.com - 30 October 2009]

Just FYI

Ralph

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Jeremy2171
November 10, 2009, 05:31 PM
If that indeed becomes the winner....I don't know what to say other than from your link it appears comparable to the M4A1....

Avenger29
November 10, 2009, 05:34 PM
This is to supplement the SAW, not replace the M16A4.

Jeremy2171
November 10, 2009, 07:20 PM
Right...and again if they need an "automatic rifle" then you convert the M16A4 to A3s or the M4s to M4A1s.....

Coronach
November 10, 2009, 09:52 PM
SAW =/= full-auto M16 variant. I don't care if it does have a piston and was assembled in the depths of the Black Forest by the war-dwarves of the Teutonic Weapons Masters, H und K.

Not even close in capability.

Mike

John Parker
November 10, 2009, 10:09 PM
Black Forest by the war-dwarves of the Teutonic Weapons Masters, H und K.


As we speak the war-dwarves have summoned the Midnight Dragons to fly to your house and devour you.

fireflyfather
November 10, 2009, 11:01 PM
"This is to supplement the SAW, not replace the M16A4."


"SAW =/= full-auto M16 variant. I don't care if it does have a piston and was assembled in the depths of the Black Forest by the war-dwarves of the Teutonic Weapons Masters, H und K.

Not even close in capability."

Key word there is SUPPLEMENT, not replace. We can debate whether that is a good idea or not, but I don't think ANYONE with more than two brain cells to rub together thinks that it's going to replace a belt fed gun.

2RCO
November 10, 2009, 11:14 PM
Beware of the Teutonic War Dwarves! They may load ammo backwards in your magazines for you!

ronbuick
November 10, 2009, 11:27 PM
H&K I'm sure make fine arms, but are they not a German Co. are we shipping more things
to be manufactured overseas and put more Americans out of work?? please respond to
this to set me straight, so we have the Beratta as a side arm for our troops, why not get them from Russia or even China, *** is going on in this country.

Ron

chuckusaret
November 10, 2009, 11:44 PM
Yes, they are German but their affiliate is in Columbus, Ga

Z-Michigan
November 10, 2009, 11:44 PM
Beware of the Teutonic War Dwarves! They may load ammo backwards in your magazines for you!

Or load the magazine correctly and insert it in the gun backwards. You just never know when you're heckling cokes.

I think the IAR specification makes sense for the marines and the M249 isn't going anywhere. The IAR as I understand it is closer to an RPK in concept and role while the M249 is a rather fancy and heavy weapon to field in each squad, though very effective while it's working.

Avenger29
November 10, 2009, 11:45 PM
H&K I'm sure make fine arms, but are they not a German Co. are we shipping more things
to be manufactured overseas and put more Americans out of work?? please respond to
this to set me straight, so we have the Beratta as a side arm for our troops, why not get them from Russia or even China, *** is going on in this country.

I guess you don't know that HK, FN, Beretta, Sig-Saur, Glock, and CZ, among other manufacturers, have factories and service centers in the US that employ many people?

Or that many "damned furrin' companies" produce a better product than domestic companies? Or that many "US brand" companies have a lot of foreign product in their lineup, rebranded and sold at a higher price simply for the profit?


Kind of like ignorantly whining that Honda and Toyota are "Jap crap brands" and "GM, Ford, and Chrysler" are the only American brands when the Honda and Toyota are built in the US out of US parts while the other brands are built in Canada or Mexico out of foreign components.

benzy2
November 11, 2009, 12:05 AM
That isn't near as fair of a comparison though. Many parts from those "import" cars are built and assembled in the US. Those rifles are all imported and sold in the US. Far less money stays in the country when things are just imported rather than manufactured. I'm not arguing against using a foreign source for cars or rifles, just that the comparison is a bit weak at best.

M67
November 11, 2009, 12:12 AM
H&K I'm sure make fine arms, but are they not a German Co. are we shipping more things to be manufactured overseas and put more Americans out of work??That's capitalism for you...

With government contracts like this you will find that the free market is heavily influenced by government wheeling and dealing. You can be sure Germany is buying something else from the US, and if those deals lead to better use of production capacity, economy of scale and all that, both countries' tax payers will be better off. In theory of course.

Avenger29
November 11, 2009, 12:18 AM
That isn't near as fair of a comparison though. Many parts from those "import" cars are built and assembled in the US. Those rifles are all imported and sold in the US. Far less money stays in the country when things are just imported rather than manufactured. I'm not arguing against using a foreign source for cars or rifles, just that the comparison is a bit weak at best.

FN-USA maintains a full production plant in Columbia, SC, making arms for our troops. Also one in one of the northern states, I think.

Sig Saur makes much of their line in the States, too.

It's an accurate and apt comparison, no differnt thanwhen folks say "XYZ brand, it's just the choice of Ford/Chevy/Dodge"

Rather than getting down to the nitty gritty of it, I intended to make the point that hollering about foreign brands is getting quite stale.

TimboKhan
November 11, 2009, 12:25 AM
so we have the Beratta as a side arm for our troops, why not get them from Russia or even China, *** is going on in this country.


It's not as if we just went out and bought Berettas, man. They went through a tough trial and won. Pretty simple, really. Holler all you want about American companies, but none of them stepped up to the plate. Even my beloved Ruger was a day late and a dollar short with their entry, which went on to become the P series of pistols...

It's also worth noting that a large (overwhelming, even) number of our arms are produced by FN, a Belgian company. They employ a ton of Americans, but in the end they are still a foreign-held company. For that matter, this isn't even the first H&K offering to be purchased by the US Military.

benzy2
November 11, 2009, 12:26 AM
Does H&K make a thing here or not? Does CZ make a thing here or not? Pretty sure Glock is the same way. Its a poor comparison since many parts from even "Domestic" cars are imports while firearms tend to be an all or nothing deal and are either manufactured here or are imported here, not much of a middle ground. Analogies suck, especially those referring to cars.

If the point was that simple to say why use an analogy?

That said, point taken and I agree with the point.

desidog
November 11, 2009, 01:15 AM
FN bought Winchester - they all come from the same plant in SC now....perhaps some posters here should stop buying Winchesters? Same goes for Budweiser....foreign owned!

I don't care where the gear comes from, as long as it is available/the best there is, for our troops.

More important than a patriotic pissing match, Was there any word on new/redesigned magazines for those guns? I think the mags are a bigger shortcoming than the gas system.

Avenger29
November 11, 2009, 01:18 AM
More important than a patriotic pissing match, Was there any word on new/redesigned magazines for those guns? I think the mags are a bigger shortcoming than the gas system.

Mags for which gun? The M-16/AR-15/whatever uses an M-16 magazine?

It's called the Magpul PMAG for the standard 30 round magazine. Bigger? I'd be leery of the Beta C mag, dunno of anything else out there.

If you are talking about the IAR (and if it uses a different mag) then I don't know....

C-grunt
November 11, 2009, 06:00 AM
Just because the company is foreign doesnt mean we are importing all the weapons. They will still be built here in the US by Americans.

Hell now that Colt lost the contract for the M4, pretty much most if not all of our small arms are from foreign companies.

USSR
November 11, 2009, 12:13 PM
Same goes for Budweiser....foreign owned!

No great loss. The company that bought Bud, produces the horrendus Belgian-made Stella Artois beer (bleech).:eek:

Don

chuckusaret
November 11, 2009, 12:28 PM
No great loss. The company that bought Bud, produces the horrendus Belgian-made Stella Artois beer (bleech).

My same feelings.............I am glad to know that others dislike it as much as me.

SlamFire1
November 11, 2009, 12:31 PM
The major firearms design bureaus are overseas.

Our industry base has been off shored. Once the factory moves, the design/developer jobs follow.

H&K redesigned the British L85A2 to a reliable weapon. H&K also was the lead contractor for the now defunct US advanced infantry rifle.

Even in prototype form, it was more reliable in Army dust tests than the M4.

Z-Michigan
November 11, 2009, 12:39 PM
I know this may sound conspiratorial but I think that the way certain large foreign entities get these contracts has a lot to do with their knowledge of lobbying and government procurement procedures. There are purely US firearms companies that make excellent products.

Mags
November 11, 2009, 01:03 PM
Old news Spec Ops have been using the 416 for some time. It is not a big deal, not like the 416 is replacing the M4 as the standard issue service weapon.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 11, 2009, 01:08 PM
Beware of the Teutonic War Dwarves! They may load ammo backwards in your magazines for you!

Don't worry - if you're using the HK 416, they'll still fire that way. Just like the rifle fires with no issues, with a complete bore obstruction, per the water video.

madd trapper
November 11, 2009, 01:10 PM
The H&K is a very good weapon. But I have nothing good to say about the 5.56 mm nato round . The military needs to reevaluated the 5.56 mm all together and use a better round like the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. I prefer the 6.8 SPC a better combat round for the buck.

Mags
November 11, 2009, 01:14 PM
Madd Trapper, have you deployed with the 5.56? Normally people crying for a bigger round have never used it in combat.

Deavis
November 11, 2009, 01:19 PM
are we shipping more things
to be manufactured overseas and put more Americans out of work?? please respond to
this to set me straight, so we have the Beratta as a side arm for our troops, why not get them from Russia or even China, *** is going on in this country.

Do yourself the biggest favor of your life. Go read Thomas Sowell's book, "Basic Economics." If after reading it you don't "understand" then read it again and you will understand why free trade works no matter where the goods come from.

madd trapper
November 11, 2009, 01:29 PM
Real Mags , I'm retired Military and have been deployed overseas .I have used the 5.56 mm,and 7.62 x51 nato , browning 50 cal and a barrett 50 cal. I'm not impressed at all with 5.56 mm in its performance .By the way the 6.8 SPC was developed by a SGTMaj from 5th group SF and have been used in combat .

Mags
November 11, 2009, 01:32 PM
Thanks Trapper, I just don't see the 6.8 being a mass issued round the same with the HK416.

scythefwd
November 11, 2009, 01:41 PM
SAW =/= full-auto M16 variant. I don't care if it does have a piston and was assembled in the depths of the Black Forest by the war-dwarves of the Teutonic Weapons Masters, H und K.

Not even close in capability.

They also aren't designed to occupy the same role in combat. The M16 is more manuverable and lighter, the SAW can sustain a longer burst and is belt fed. One is offensive, the other is suppressive.

sneedb82
November 11, 2009, 02:55 PM
Either way, if the 416 doesn't accept the common magazines (Pmags would be included), then Magpul makes the Emag, to fit that bill. However, I'm sure that the new 416 takes the standard Milspec 30 round mags.

In terms of the 6.8spc being utilized in a larger scale, if the government would back off all these entitlement programs, and cut some spending in areas like space and environmental protection, the Military could award contracts to Silver State, the leader in the 6.8SPC ammunition realm to date, and other leading ammunition manufacturers to produce projectiles and cases for this round. Once that's the case, then Remington, Winchester, Federal, Hornady and Silver State can be on a playing field that produces it in just about the same level as the 5.56 round. Once that happens, it'll become a more economical round to use. Built off the .277 caliber projectile, it is very efficient for the intermediate ranges that the M16A4 has become.... and even for close quarters. The round is even further efficient in a short barreled rifle, thereby reducing the need for heavy equipment. Noveske and LWRC have already shown its potential in both DI and Piston driven full-auto offerings. It's the folks who are elitist into thinking the military is too good for the round that leaves it hanging in the balance. It's still more efficient in close quarters than the 6.5

Kernel
November 11, 2009, 07:00 PM
http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/products/hk416/lg_hk416_3.jpg
H&K 416

"The HK-proprietary gas system uses a piston driving an operating rod to control the function of the bolt"

Daniel
November 12, 2009, 09:40 AM
Nice looking rifle.

I can see the US moving to the 416/417 to replace the M4/M16/AR-10/M-14 in the near future when the current weapons of those makes get old, with this decision.

Z-Michigan
November 12, 2009, 11:33 AM
The USMC often picks good weapons and the other services often pretend that the USMC is on another planet. I think the continued use of the M4 boils down to politics and logistics, and is unlikely to change.

Average Joe
November 12, 2009, 07:47 PM
I read the test results a while ago, its a very impressive rifle, they buried it in sand, mud, ice and dumped it in water, and never a malfunction.

LaEscopeta
February 11, 2010, 05:38 PM
Looks like the USMC is going with the H&K IAR:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/12/marine_IAR_update_120309w/

Didn't the Special Op Command buy a bunch of H&K 416 uppers a few years ago, to go on existing M16/M4 lowers? I think the IAR can be viewed as an ongoing evolutionary change to the M16/M4 family of weapons. I assume the new IAR will have some part interchangeability with the rest of the M16/M4s, and the same or similar manual of arms, although the rear sight in the photo above looks like a G-3 style, not the M16 type. The cleaning procedure will be a little different.

LaEscopeta
February 11, 2010, 06:26 PM
I’ve been thinking (it keeps me out of the pool halls.) Based on the criticism of the IAR in this thread and this one:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=474728&page=3&highlight=IAR

…maybe the USMC needs/intends to reconfigure the infantry squads that exchange IARs for M249s.

I’ve read (all my info in this post is from reading) USMC infantry squads have 12 members (sometimes 13 when the squad leader is not one of the fire team leaders.) The squad is made up of 3 fire teams of 4 Marines apiece, armed as follows:

1. Fire team leader, M16 rifle w/ m203 grenade launcher and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
2. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 or M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
3. Marine SAW Gunner w/ M249 and 5 belts (1000 rounds.)
4. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 of M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
(Sometimes assistant SAW gunner, carrying ammo belts and spare barrels)

5. Fire team leader, M16 rifle w/ m203 grenade launcher and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
6. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 or M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
7. Marine SAW Gunner w/ M249 and 5 belts (1000 rounds.)
8. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 of M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
(Sometimes assistant SAW gunner, carrying ammo belts and spare barrels)

9. Fire team leader, M16 rifle w/ m203 grenade launcher and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
10. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 or M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
11. Marine SAW Gunner w/ M249 and 5 belts (1000 rounds.)
12. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 of M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
(Sometimes assistant SAW gunner, carrying ammo belts and spare barrels)



Maybe the new squad makeup, to have the same firepower as the above, should be:

1. Fire team leader, M16 rifle w/ m203 grenade launcher and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
2. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 or M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
3. Marine Automatic Rifleman w/ IAR and 21 mags (630 rounds.)
4. Marine Automatic Rifleman w/ IAR and 21 mags (630 rounds.)

5. Fire team leader, M16 rifle w/ m203 grenade launcher and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
6. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 or M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
7. Marine Automatic Rifleman w/ IAR and 21 mags (630 rounds.)
8. Marine Automatic Rifleman w/ IAR and 21 mags (630 rounds.)

9. Fire team leader, M16 rifle w/ m203 grenade launcher and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
10. Marine Rifleman w/ M16 or M4 and 7 mags (210 rounds.)
11. Marine Automatic Rifleman w/ IAR and 21 mags (630 rounds.)
12. Marine Automatic Rifleman w/ IAR and 21 mags (630 rounds.)

This is under the assumption that 6 IARs provide at least the firepower as the 3 M249s they replace. The 2 Automatic Riflemen in each fire team would work together to provide a base of fire, firing alternating bursts (“talking machine guns”.) Maybe one of them starts with a magazine ˝ loaded so the 2 IARs do not have to reload at the same time. According the Feb 2009 Marine Corps Times:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/02/marine_newsaw_020109w/

… the “SAW…provides a sustained rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute.” And “The sustained rate of fire available in the…HK models is 12 to 15 rounds per minute, with a maximum effective rate of fire of… 75 rounds per minute for 600 rounds” So 2 Automatic Rifleman would carry the same 1200+/- rounds as the Saw Gunner and Assistant SAW gunner, and have close to the same fire rate for those 1200 rounds.

And the above squad reformation is based on the assumption the new IAR is light enough (maybe 11 lbs. loaded w/ bi-pod) to allow the Marine carrying it to fulfill the Rifleman role. With the M249s, 3 Marines in each squad are loaded down with 16.5 lbs weapon (empty) and 5 ammo belts that weight what? 3 lbs each? Having an Assistant SAW Gunner distributes this load between 2 men, but having 2 men with IARs and 600 rounds apiece reduces and distributes the total load better. This should allow the 12 men in the squad to move with equal speed against the lightly armed and fast moving insurgents they are now facing in 2 wars, without waiting for the 3 SAW gunners to catch up.

Mandolin
February 11, 2010, 08:37 PM
Or we could wait for the SAW gunners and have some real suppressive fire. Machineguns/ automatic rifles should be able to sustain fire for more than 3-4 seconds, IMO. This is not 1945, 30 rounds is no longer enough for a support weapon. The suport weapon needs to have a larger magazine than the weapon that is supports, IMHO. The Brits tried the L86 for a while, then decided that it was a bad idea. The USMC will porabalby do the same soon. You should take up more time firing than reloading, at least in my opinion.

AR-15 Rep
February 11, 2010, 10:48 PM
One thing to think about: The SCAR can switch out barrels and bolts to the 7.62X39 cartridge. With that in mind, it would be wise to use your enemies ammo VS having to be resupplied with 5.56mm ammo. Imagine the savings...

vaupet
February 12, 2010, 10:51 AM
Some small opinion from overseas: (i live in Belgium, some 20 miles from the FN factory)
1. HK makes the most reliable weapons around
2. most infantry squad around the world use mixed weapons, like hk416 in 5.56 and hk 417 in 7.62 or scar L and scar H
3. the SAW M249, that is the FN Minimi, no?
4. all these factories produce their weapons for us government in the US
5. It looks to me that a lot of the people here support the free market, but only if they get the profit.
6. end there was me, thinking the marines just wanted the best gun to protect their lives

greetings

Mandolin
February 12, 2010, 11:14 AM
Some small opinion from overseas: (i live in Belgium, some 20 miles from the FN factory)
1. HK makes the most reliable weapons around
2. most infantry squad around the world use mixed weapons, like hk416 in 5.56 and hk 417 in 7.62 or scar L and scar H
3. the SAW M249, that is the FN Minimi, no?
4. all these factories produce their weapons for us government in the US
5. It looks to me that a lot of the people here support the free market, but only if they get the profit.
6. end there was me, thinking the marines just wanted the best gun to protect their lives.

1. Nope, just HK likes to take advantage of the suposed failings of the M4/M16. 14 nations, use the HK416. Of them, 10 of them barly count, they just got something new and cool. The other nations are Germany (special forces only), France (special forces again, since the FAMAS is bullpup and has no rails), the UK (SAS/SBS only, might replace the L85), and US (Delta only, and some civilian LEOs)
2 Nope, most squads have 5.56 rifles and machine guns, or 5.56 rifles and 7.62mm machine guns. I don't know of any nation that uses 5.56 and 7.62 rifles together in a squad. HK417 is mostly use as a DM rifle by nations using th HK416.
3. Yes, with a diferent hand guard and a few minor changes.
4. I think so
5. naturaly
6. The Brits thought the same thing about the L86. Seen any recently?

Hatterasguy
February 12, 2010, 02:20 PM
Or we could wait for the SAW gunners and have some real suppressive fire. Machineguns/ automatic rifles should be able to sustain fire for more than 3-4 seconds, IMO. This is not 1945, 30 rounds is no longer enough for a support weapon. The suport weapon needs to have a larger magazine than the weapon that is supports, IMHO. The Brits tried the L86 for a while, then decided that it was a bad idea. The USMC will porabalby do the same soon. You should take up more time firing than reloading, at least in my opinion.

Even in 1945 it wasn't enough, the Germans based there squad around the MG42 which throws a ton of lead, and we copied.

The 416 isn't going to replace the Saw, its not heavy enough. But it would make a damn good replacement for the M4.:D

ArmedBear
February 12, 2010, 02:37 PM
The SCAR can switch out barrels and bolts to the 7.62X39 cartridge.

So instead of shipping your troops more ammo, you fill the planes and trucks with barrels and bolts, and tell them to go find their own damned ammo?

Doesn't sound like a winning plan, in most cases...:)

stubbicatt
February 12, 2010, 07:18 PM
Din't the Marines choose the Reising and the Johnson rifle in WW2?

Mandolin
February 12, 2010, 08:46 PM
Din't the Marines choose the Reising and the Johnson rifle in WW2?
Yes they had them early in the war. However, the Resing was complex, fired closed-bolt, and jammed way too often, so it was dropped. The Johnson was, i belive, popular with the Para-Marines, since it was easy to break down. However, it was recoil-operated and puting a bayonet on messed it up since (i think) the barrel recoiled on firing. An the fact that the M1 Garand was being produced ingreater numbers and its fans(the Para-Marines) played no real role in WW2 (no real opritunity for paratrupersi the Pacific) and it disapeared. At least that's my understanding.

78tsubaki
February 12, 2010, 10:32 PM
I agree that this is a nice looking rifle. I believe that our Armed Services are doing their homework to get the most bang for the buck.

My concerns with buying our weapons overseas is the same as my concern with foreign cars made in the USA.
1. The profits do not stay here to put more Americans to work.
2. If WW3 did break out how reliable would our spare parts lines be.
3. Do we believe that Toyota, Honda or Subaru will retool and build us tanks, trucks, and plane parts?

I have often wondered about these things.
I know that my 2 American vehicles have foreign parts in them. I know that in this global economy we can not expect to buy 100% American. It does help me to know that the money I spent stays here for the most part.

HorseSoldier
February 12, 2010, 11:51 PM
This is a cool development, since it means I never have to listen to what the USMC has to say about weapons again. ;)

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 13, 2010, 12:05 AM
The IAR as I understand it is closer to an RPK in concept and role while the M249 is a rather fancy and heavy weapon to field in each squad, though very effective while it's working.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I know the Marine have the reputation for being the most combat oriented service, but in the US Army Military Police, each 3 man team has at least 1 SAW, sometimes 2. The M249, in it modern cut down variant, is very easy to field on a mass basis. There is no reason to have a rifle that fills the space in between the M4/M16 and the SAW. The SAW itself is meant to be the automatic gun for small groups.

But then again, the Military Police corps is a bit different. We generally carry more firepower in a 3 man team than a whole infantry squad carries.

elmerfudd
February 13, 2010, 12:17 AM
So instead of shipping your troops more ammo, you fill the planes and trucks with barrels and bolts, and tell them to go find their own damned ammo?

Doesn't sound like a winning plan, in most cases...

+1. It might work for guerrillas and a few SF types, but there's no way you could effectively run a modern army like that. Imagine soldiers having to keep multiple barrels, bolts and magazines and the supply problems it would create. Troops with 7.62 barrels would get 5.56 ammo delivered to them and vice versa and it would be guaranteed that a few dumb @$$es would do their conversion wrong and leave the wrong bolt in the rifle or grab the wrong magazines.

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