[GojuBrian]

Does anyone know of the expansion reliability of WWB's JHP's?

How are they inferior (or not) to other self defense hollow points?

Has anyone tested these out?

I bought a box of 50 jhp's from wally world and was wondering. At $18 for 50 how do they compare to the high end self defense rounds?

Thanks!!

[rbernie]

This is what I carry - the WWB 'Personal Protection' ammo. As far as I know, there have been no FBI protocol tests done on it.

I have no doubt that the latest bonded JHP bullet designs are superior to the JHP design of the WWB PP bullet. However, I like to periodically shoot a bunch of the same ammo that I carry, just to ensure correct operation in my carry guns. I can't afford to do that with ammo that costs $1/round or more. I also do not much subscribe to the 'magic bullet' theory, that suggests that somehow the latest/greatest self defense round will somehow stand between me and my certain demise and that failing to carry that round will be my doom. I believe that shooting proficiency (shot placement plus sound defensive tactics) is far more important than chasing after the 'magic bullet'.

Look at it this way - take the money you save by buying the WWB PP ammo and set it aside. After a little while, you'll probably have enough money saved to buy admission to a decent 'defensive pistol' course - and THAT will be money well spent. :)

[tseabourn]

According to a 2002 GUNS MAGAZINE article (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_48/ai_87564357/), the lower-cost offerings from the manufacturers is often as good as their premium offerings.

The article makes an interesting point. However, I choose to load Cor-Bon or Golden Sabers in my defensive weapons.

[trickyasafox]

I'd use it if I could find it. Never see the stuff by me. I maybe because I don't go to enough big box retailers.

Anyway- I've never heard a negative thing about the JHP WWB stuff, but personal experience is non-existent.

[m2steven]

I had great performance with WWB JHP in 45 cal. The load and shoot like a dream, and they are so reasonable. They are no more expensive than a box of standard 380 (at Walmart). I think they are a steal.

[searcher451]

Good information, guys. Thanks. I was at the local WallyWorld last night and spotted a box of the Winchester WB JHP, 50 rounds for just under $18. I hadn't seen a box of this stuff in more than a year, so I snapped it up. Of course, having never tried it, I was wondering how smart that was ... until now. :)

[KBintheSLC]

I have had good results with the 147g 9mm WWB stuff. It does expand and more importantly, it is reliable.

[RockyMtnTactical]

It is old JHP tech, pretty sure that the WWB JHP's are just Winchester Silvertips, more or less. Not great performance, not terrible, but I would spend a few more bucks and get something better. When my life is at stake, I don't want to have to say that I saved a couple bucks for sake of performance.

On a side note, I am fairly certain that winchester silvertips were the same JHP's used by the FBI agents in the Miami shootout. It was this shootout that resulted in the FBI eventually changing to the .40, as well as their standard for 12" minimum penetration in ballistic gelatin (preferably 18"). Fortunately, since then, not only have they upgraded calibers, bullet/JHP technology has taken a step and are better today than they were back then.

In short, high quality JHP's from today probably would have ended the Miami shootout faster than the Silvertips did.

Their main drawback is not expansion (which they tend to do very well at, at least in my own personal testing), it is under penetration. Lack of penetration allowed the gunmen in the miami shootout to live just long enough to kill 2 FBI agents before succumbing to 18 total hits between the two.

Will using WWB JHP's result in your death? Probably not, they will probably do the job, but the same bullet design's lack of penetration has ultimately led to the deaths of those using them in the past...

[mljdeckard]

I carry HSTs, and I advise people to use premium JHP ammo for carry BUT, I think that the real world difference is probably negligible. I think that the necessity and difference in one-stop percentages, diameter of expansion, and failure percentage is exaggerated by manufacturers to sell newer designs. I really think that to get a significant real world difference in performance of pistol bullets, you have to look at one extreme to the end of the other. (.380 FMJ to .45 JHP.) They are all pistol rounds, and they all suck.

If for some reason I was out of premium JHP, and I had to load up with WWB JHP OR FMJ, it wouldn't change my plan at all. The very worst thing that could happen is a failure to expand, and I would be left with a .45 bullet, which has historicall been shown to do the job just as well as anything else.

[Ben86]

They are mediocre, they perform well more often then not. They're weaknesses are that they do not include any of the advancements in jhps in the past couple decades. Things such as cavity plugging, jacket-core separation, fragmentation and even under-penetration can happen. Basically their performance is less consistant than premium ammo. How much less? I'm not sure. However, the fact is they are definately better than fmj. So if you either don't want to spend the money or can't spend the money they are better than carrying target ammo.

I personally can't afford to load my guns with only premium ammo. So I load the first 5-10 rounds with premium and the rest with wwb 115gr jhps or rem umc 115gr jhps.

Also, if you are going to go cheap, go light. Cheap 147gr bullets tend to have crappy expansion, which leads to overpenetration and a perhaps a hefty lawsuit.

From my experience the 115gr in 9mm and 230gr in .45 perform very well. The 180gr in .40 however hardly ever expands.

[rbernie]

On a side note, I am fairly certain that winchester silvertips were the same JHP's used by the FBI agents in the Miami shootout. It was this shootout that resulted in the FBI eventually changing to the .40, as well as their standard for 12" minimum penetration in ballistic gelatin (preferably 18"). Fortunately, since then, not only have they upgraded calibers, bullet/JHP technology has taken a step and are better today than they were back then. In fairness, the issue in Miami that was subsequently addressed was barrier penetration prior to providing 12" or better of human penetration. That is far more relevant to the FBI than to most CCWers.

Also, the 9mm load used by the FBI at the time was a 115gr load. I presume that the WWB PP 147gr load will penetrate better than the 115gr. I'm also sure that the 147gr WWB PP is of a more modern vintage than the 1986-vintage 115gr Silvertips, since the 147gr load wasn't around at that time. ;)

Things such as cavity plugging, jacket-core separation, fragmentation and even under-penetration can happen. Basically their performance is less consistant than premium ammo. How much less? I'm not sure. These things happen all the time, even with the latest and greatest bullets. I recently read a quote that suggested that the majority (meaning 51% or more) of police-issue JHPs fail to meaningfully expand. That would include all of the latest GDs and Rangers and such. Dunno how true that it, but my point is that any bullet can fail to expand. We should train as if the bullet is NOT going to turn into internal razorblades of death.

Also, if you are going to go cheap, go light. Cheap 147gr bullets tend to have crappy expansion, which leads to overpenetration and a perhaps a hefty lawsuit.Can you provide a single cite to a civil suit that resulted from overpenetration of any round during a lawful self-defense shooting? I read this kind of comment a lot on the Internet, and I'm really ready to see the actual proof of it. :)

[wnycollector]

tseabourn, thanks for the link to a great article.

Here is an article along the same lines. http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html

[Philo_Beddoe]

Also, the 9mm load used by the FBI at the time was a 115gr load. I presume that the WWB PP 147gr load will penetrate better than the 115gr. I'm also sure that the 147gr WWB PP is of a more modern vintage than the 1986-vintage 115gr Silvertips, since the 147gr load wasn't around at that time




That is exactly what I was thinking, 115 grain 9mm no matter who makes it tends to underpentrate and overexpand.

[Kingofthehill]

They work extremely well and often overlooked.

ITs a great self defense round especially becaues you can afford to test with them before you trust your life to it.

[167]

The WWB JHP's are just old technology, as already mentioned, which means they won't perform as well as the new stuff. But I think of greater concern is that they are not subject to the same quality control standards as premium SD ammo so the probability of getting a dud round or something along those lines is higher. I guarantee you that hitting a dud round while in a gunfight is the beginning of a very bad day. They also will not have sealed primers or case mouths (like most premium ammo does), making them more subject to environmental conditions and probably shorten the shelf life by a couple years or so (which probably isn't a big deal unless you buy a few thousand rounds at a time and stock up for the zombie invasion).

But there are benefits-like those mentioned in post #2-that are certainly good benefits that should not be overlooked. There is unfortunately always a compromise somewhere.

[ljnowell]

I have expansion tested them in wet newspaper and they expanded ok. Not as well as my Gold Dot handloads, but they lacked the velocity that I tested the GDs at. On a dark side note, thats what my best friend used to kill himself (in .45acp). The police never recovered the projectile, but I was there to console his mother and helped with answering some of the investigators questions. It was a scene I will never forget. Sorry for the thread hi-jack.

[Fumbler]

The 147 gr Winchester USA JHP load doesn't look too bad at all.

Check out this link:
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm
(I'm pretty sure the Super X is the same bullet as the Win USA load)

I've seen other gelatin tests online but cannot find the links.
IIRC in those tests the expansion was better and penetration was around 14 inches.

My load of choice is the Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot. There's lots of test data on that load.
If I had to pick an easy to find budget load it would be the 147gr Win USA JHP. It would at least be better than ball.

[GojuBrian]

I'm finding the WWB JHP's in Wally world about once a week now. I've snagged some up and will be doing some testing of my own. I do have some PowRball and SXT's as well, but they're too expensive to do much testing with. :D

[RockyMtnTactical]

I'm pretty sure the Super X is the same bullet as the Win USA load

I don't think so. From the testing I have done, and from all that I know, the WWB is almost exactly like the Silvertips (minus the silver jacket).

[AcceptableUserName]

Whatever feeds, most importantly. And to be honest, WWB, both FMJ and JHP, have fed better than most in my guns, and this includes Fed Hydrashok and Speer Gold Dot. I LOVE those last two rounds, but better make sure your gun likes it. All my guns have liked the WWB, both in 9mm and .45 and both in fmj and jhp.

[Fumbler]

I don't think so. From the testing I have done, and from all that I know, the WWB is almost exactly like the Silvertips (minus the silver jacket).
They all look the same to me.

Win Personal Protection found at Walmart:
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Large/747709.jpg

Win Super-X:
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/Images/Specials/339.jpg

Win Silver Tip:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHP%20and%20147%20gr%20Ammo_files/image016.jpg

Of course that doesn't mean they're constructed exactly the same.

[KBintheSLC]

Also, if you are going to go cheap, go light. Cheap 147gr bullets tend to have crappy expansion, which leads to overpenetration and a perhaps a hefty lawsuit.

I too would like to see a source to back both of these claims. First of all, I have personally tested numerous 147g 9mm loads including WWB, all of which did expand to varying degrees in wet mass. Second of all, I have never once heard of someone being sued due to over-penetration after passing through a person. Most lawsuits happen because someone missed the target completely, or even better, their kin file a wrongful death lawsuit and win because you live in a nanny state.

[bigfatdave]

I never see these at the local shops or big-box stores around here, for some reason.
I wouldn't hesitate to snap up a couple boxes for testing, though ... Step one is to be armed, Step two is to e aware, step three is to be proficient ... I think fine-tuning beyond "commercial HP ammo that feeds" is somewhere around step ninety-seven or so.

[167]

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

That is what DocGKR says about the older designs that are found in the WWB and other budget personal protection lines. Are they the best, probably not. Will they work, sure, but so will a .22LR if put in the right place. It is all about compromise.

[AcceptableUserName]

Who wants to see a 147 gr hollow point WWB Personal Protection recovered after an accidental discharge? Say I.

[RockyMtnTactical]

They all look the same to me.

I was referring to the way that the WWB hollowpoints look after they expand in relation to the silvertips.

This is a 9mm 115gr WWB JHP I shot into water jugs and recovered quite some time ago.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/115grWWBJHP.jpg

If you look at the Super X after expansion, it looks different from the WWB and Silvertip, which both look very similar.

[golden]

GO,

I would not hesitate to use the 9m.m. 115 grain jhp WHITE BOX loads for practice. I have used them in several different brands and found them to be more accurate and generally cleaner than other discount brands.

As for effectiveness, they are about the same as most standard velocity 115 grain jhp ammo. They can do the job, but you get an edge in stopping power with some of the premium and especially the +P and +P+ loads. I like the WHITE BOX for practice ammo.

I carry FEDERAL +P+ Hydro-Shok or HST 124 grain or WINCHESTER Ranger 127 grain +P+ ammo for carry and home defense.

Jim

[AcceptableUserName]

I believe it's a 147, but could be a 115. I'm not the best at ballistics, but I do know it was the WWB Personal Protection because I was there the day he bought them. Bullet fired out of a friend's Keltec Sub due to idiotic firearms handling practices and momentary stupidity on his part.(not checking for a mag). IIRC the Keltec generates higher velocities than normal and close to +p specs (,aybe I'm wrong). Bullet went through fiberboard door, traveled down a hallway and somehow went right through the clearance gap of a drawer at floor level, just scratching the top of the drawer and bottom of the dresser. To be fair, the cheap fiberboard (slightly stronger than stiff cardboard) door didn't offer much resistance, and it didn't really hit anything else. He only found the slug months after, resting inside the drawer on top of some papers, I demanded pictures of the door and I photographed the bullet and saved them...http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/sfbcd49ers1/dscf2728.jpghttp://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/sfbcd49ers1/dscf2729.jpghttp://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/sfbcd49ers1/dscf2730.jpg

[Mad Chemist]

I think the trick bullets become more important when you are using a marginal caliber for SD. I use Gold Dot or Barnes solid copper for my .380 to guarantee adequate penetration. But for my Detonics .45, I'll load just about any JHP and not be overly concerned about it.

One other thing to be aware of, most American bulk 9mm is loaded very light. Run a load-out of WWB side by side with Fiochi and S&B through a chrono if you don't believe me. I generally go with premium 9mm for my G19 primarily because typical US bulk ammo is so anemic. But if I had any generic HP that was actually loaded close to NATO spec, I'd probably be happy with it.

[RockyMtnTactical]

I was also able to compare the 115gr WWB to a 124gr Speer Gold Dot (not the +P load). The Gold Dot penetrated one more water jug than the WWB.

Yes, there are a whole lot of more important factors than the bullet to take into account, but since we aren't talking about those factors in this thread...

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/BOV024.jpg

The improved bullet technology is apparent when you shoot them side by side and compare them. Granted, since they were different grains, it may be somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison...

However, the bonded Gold Dot appears to peel like a banana, allowing it to keep more energy as it travels, whereas the WWB JHP appears to simply flatten creating more drag, therefore effectively bringing the bullet to a quicker stop.

I like a bonded bullet because it eliminates core-jacket separation, which allows it to retain more weight and gain more penetration.

I carry 124gr +P Gold Dots in my Glock 19. They are more pricey than WWB, but they are not breaking the bank. I think I was able to buy something like 200 rounds for like $30-35 a few years back, IIRC. It was a pretty sweet deal.