Penetration Test - 210gr Partition 2936fps


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beartooth
November 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
I did a penetration test with the 210gr Partition out of my 338Win Mag moving at 2936fps.

Frist I used 9 hard plastic gallon jugs as the test media. I fired from 10yds away. Here are the 9 jugs measuring in length 49.5 inches or 4.125 feet deep.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9237.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9238.jpg

Second here is the impact effect of the 210gr Partition and note it traveled to the back side of the seventh jug and punched a hole but did not have enough energy and momentum to exit the seventh jug. Also look at the front jug way off to the right and the 9th jug was knocked back and off the table from the impact. The 210gr Partition traveled 38.5 inches or 3.208 feet through the media.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9239.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9240.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9242.jpg

Here is the 210gr Partition recovered from the seventh jug with the front part of the partition gone and the back like it is suppose to be. The back remaining part to the partition weighed 148.4grs.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9243.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9249.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9250.jpg

I do not think there is any doubt about the 210gr Partition killing anything it hits up close or far off when traveling over 2900fps.

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257WM_CDL-SF
November 12, 2009, 11:01 AM
I still want one

Vern Humphrey
November 12, 2009, 11:55 AM
Bigfoot Wallace, my custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen turns in similar performances. It drives a 225-grain Nosler PJ to 2,800 fps. I shot an elk that was broadside to me, and skinning it out, the left leg fell off -- the bullet broke the bone and went into the chest cavity. As I continued skinning, the right leg fell off -- the bullet broke it on the way out.

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 01:01 PM
Question about the weight retention:

To what degree is a 210 grain bullet that ends up a 150 grain bullet superior to a 165 grain bullet that ends up a 160 grain bullet?

Does the initial impact matter? When/where in its path of travel does it lose that 60 grains of metal?

Vern Humphrey
November 12, 2009, 01:35 PM
To what degree is a 210 grain bullet that ends up a 150 grain bullet superior to a 165 grain bullet that ends up a 160 grain bullet?
Back when I was a lad (if you can imagine such a faraway time) the hunting and shooting magazines were full of stories of "bullet failure."

The problem was, Hunter Number 1 would shoot a white tail or a pronghorn at 300 yards with a bullet fired from a .300 Savage. Hunter Number 2 would shoot a mud-encrusted moose at 25 yards with the same bullet, but fired from a .300 Weatherby Magnum. Now, how do you make a bullet that will reliably open up at low velocity on a gracile animal (Hunter Number 1's problem) and not self-destruct in the case of Hunter Number 2?

The Nosler Partition Jacket was the answer. Think of the jacket as a tube with a partition in the middle. The walls in the fore part of the tube are thin, and there is a soft lead core. In the back part of the tube, the walls are thicker and there is a hardened lead rear core.

The front part opens up reliably -- at low velocities, on lightly-built game. But the expansion stops at the partition. If you hit a big animal at high velocity, the whole front core may go, but the rear of the bullet plows on, trailing "wings" of the front end (look at the picture of the recovered bullet.)

The Nosler Partition Jacket was developed about 70 years ago, and has piled up an impressive record on game.

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 01:49 PM
That's all true.

However, we now have bullets that retain almost 100% of their weight, while expanding.

That's my question.

Does the 210 grains really mean anything, or is it mainly the 150 post-expansion?

Stories of "bullet failure" in the past have been replaced by stories of surprisingly good performance from the likes of Barnes solid copper bullets, as in "that .30-06 seemed more like a .338 WinMag when it hit."

the whole front core may go, but the rear of the bullet plows on, trailing "wings" of the front end (look at the picture of the recovered bullet.)

I know how that works, but the modern bullets plow on, without losing the front core. I've seen a pile of expanded Barnes bullets, for example. They look like that Partition, same petals, same weight, but they started out as smaller bullets.

So, with the NP you get 210 -> 150 grains, whereas with some of the solids you can get 165 -> 160 grains, and you don't need a big magnum to do it (a conservative .30-06 handload of a 165 grain GMX is going almost as fast as that 210 in a .338).

So, does the initial hit from the 210 grain bullet matter, or does the remaining 150 grain bullet matter more?

Vern Humphrey
November 12, 2009, 02:02 PM
However, we now have bullets that retain almost 100% of their weight, while expanding.
But that doesn't necessarily make them more effective.

The Nosler Partition Jacket is designed to expand and penetrate on all game, at all ranges. And it does that very well. It's been doing it for 70 years or so.

So, does the initial hit from the 210 grain bullet matter, or does the remaining 150 grain bullet matter more?
What matters is game dead on the ground -- from white tails to moose or brown bear. And the Nosler has a long record of producing kills.

cougar1717
November 12, 2009, 02:03 PM
Thanks for posting this. It's great data. Any idea when we might see the Bear O' Tooth website up and running? :)

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 02:09 PM
Okay then.

Does anyone have any thoughts about what I asked (which was not how old the NP is)?

The last Barnes advocate I spoke with dumped the NP entirely, in favor of Barnes bullets -- PURELY because of his experiences with the Barnes on game like elk, compared with NP.

I'm wondering what to make of that.

Vern Humphrey
November 12, 2009, 02:16 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts about what I asked
What is your question?

If it's "Does the Nosler PJ work?" the answer is yes.

If it's "Does the Nosler PJ work reliably?" the answer is yes.

If it's "Does the Nosler PJ work reliably on all game?" the answer is yes.

If it's "Does the Nosler PJ work reliably on all game at all ranges and velocities?" the answer is yes.

beartooth
November 12, 2009, 02:37 PM
ArmedBear, the Partition is designed to open up quickly disabling the game almost immediately and then driving the nail in the coffin so to speak with the remainder of the bullet that is behind the partition. This creates quick shocking kills while finishing the job and insuring a blood trail if the animal does not go down immediately. The trailing part of the bullet also shaders skeletal structure on large game causing them to many times go down not being able to travel. John Nosler's design in 1948 was truly a good one and he understood what was needed in a bullet to perform at all ranges and various velocities. He understood how shock and momentum can work together and designed a bullet that gave both.

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 02:37 PM
What is your question?

ROTFLMAO

Anyone else have an opinion about what I asked?

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 02:41 PM
the Partition is designed to open quick disabling almost immediately then driving the nail in the coffin so to speak with the remainder of the bullet that is behind the partition.

It opens quickly, sheds 60+ grains, and then does its actual work as a 150 grain bullet.

Or does it? When/where does it shed the 60 grains?

This creates quick shocking kills while finishing the job and insuring a blood trail if the animal does not go down immediately. The trailing part of the bullet so shaders skeletal structure on large game causing them to many times go down not being able to travel.

Right.

But my question remains: if you have a bullet with 95+% retention, that is essentially the same in weight and structure as that REMAINING PART of the NP bullet, how would its effectiveness compare to the NP?

Anecdotal evidence from hunters -- both about failing bullets and high-performance solids -- universally suggests that what really matters is that remaining part of the bullet, not the initial weight.

If that's so, it would suggest that a reasonably hot .30-06 load with a modern, symmetrically-expanding solid that doesn't lose weight on the way in could perform essentially as well as that .338 WinMag with a bullet that loses 60 grains. I have certainly talked with Barnes converts who believe that to be the case, from experience in the field. I don't know.

Thoughts?

beartooth
November 12, 2009, 02:48 PM
ArmedBear the front was not completely shed all the way through the first five and the front of the six jug. It did not shed in a few inches but went over 2 1/2 feet before completely shedding the front. There is know way a 165gr bullet can be compared to this 210gr Partition by any stretch of the imagination. That would be like comparing apples and oranges. The Accubond 200gr nor the 225gr Accubond will penetrate as deep as this 210gr Partition.

Vern Humphrey
November 12, 2009, 02:51 PM
However, we now have bullets that retain almost 100% of their weight, while expanding.

That's my question.

That's not a question. It's a declarative statement.
Does the 210 grains really mean anything, or is it mainly the 150 post-expansion?
The parts of that sentence don't match. The 210 grains means the bullet weighs just short of half an ounce. The rest of the sentence I don't understand. Do you mean, "Is it the rear portion of the bullet, weighing 150 grains that makes it effective?"

The answer is, both parts of the bullet make it effective -- as Beartooth said, "the Partition is designed to open up quickly disabling the game almost immediately and then driving the nail in the coffin so to speak with the remainder of the bullet that is behind the partition. This creates quick shocking kills while finishing the job and insuring a blood trail if the animal does not go down immediately."

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 02:54 PM
ArmedBear the front was not completely shed all the way through the first five and the front of the six jug. It did not shed in a few inches but went over 2 1/2 feet before completely shedding the front.

Thank you. I think that's an important bit of information to know. So we're looking at a 200 grain bullet for at least part of its travel, going pretty fast. That certainly would outperform a 165.

150 grains retained would be unimpressive, if it shed that weight on initial impact. I'm sure it does outpenetrate the Accubond, but I never wondered about that to begin with.:)

That's what I was asking, Vern: When/where does it shed that weight?

You'll find that in my posts above, for all to see. The questions can be identified easily, since they end in question marks.

beartooth
November 12, 2009, 02:57 PM
ArmedBear, sorry I did not notice your question sooner or I would have addressed it.

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 02:58 PM
No sweat, beartooth. And the second part of my post was addressed to Vern, who kept trying to tell me I wasn't asking a question, not to you. Sorry if it seemed like it was aimed at you.

Thanks for the info.:)

DannySeesUSMC
November 12, 2009, 04:01 PM
Rifles Bullets for the Hunter: A Definitive Study is a good book to check out. It goes over some of the testing of rifle bullets and tells some of the experience from authors - John Barsness, Richard Mann, Craig Boddington, John Haviland, Ron Spomer, Bryce Towsley....

When you compare a Barnes TTSX, TSX, or MRX to a Nosler Partition or Accubond...it's a different type of beast. Barnes monolithic expanding bullets are a mix of a solid and a small frontal diameter hollow-point.

In some of the tests using the Bullet Test Tube (which is better than ballistic gelatin as it shows wound cavity which can be measured) you see how a Barnes isn't necessary 95% of the time similar to the way a solid isn't necessary 99% of the time.

Check out this page http://www.gunsandhunting.com/bulletshootout.html this is consistent with other tests and findings. When you increase bullet weight for these bullets that expand rapidly and shed some of their weight the damage is magnified even more. However a 180 grain Barnes MRX around the same velocity as those 150's in the link showed about the same performance.

In this medium 12inches is given as an approximate penetration depth to where the bullet will either exit an Elk or similar size game....or be stuck just under the hide on the off-side.

In the tests even the 270 Winchester 150 grain Power-Point load has more wound cavity than the Barnes .308 180 grain MRX and more than enough penetration for deer, elk, moose, etc.

So that is why you choose these bullets instead of a Barnes MRX or Hornady GMX....unless you are shooting through 4ft+ of animal....there is no need and it is not more effective.

Partitions are the top of the heap for the majority of hunted animals and Accubonds are right there next to them.

beartooth
November 12, 2009, 04:12 PM
DannySeeUSMC, very well put and so right on indeed. I tested for 3 hunting seasons the TSX in my 257Wby, 30-06, 300Wby and 375Wby and because of that without going into all the detail I do not use them any more.

The Partition is my main hunting bullet followed by the Accubond. Thanks for the impute, it was right on.

DannySeesUSMC
November 12, 2009, 04:14 PM
Sierra Prohunter 150 grain .308 $20 per 100
Barnes TSX & TTSX 150 grain .308 $60-70 per 100

Barnes = Wound cavity 160ml and 16 inches of penetration
Sierra = Wound cavity 220ml and 12.2 inches of penetration - source http://riflebullets.net/fieldnotes.html

Sierra with deer bone molded in - velocity at 2700 fps = Wound cavity 230ml and penetration 12.5 inches

Would just get better with a heaver grain Sierra.....

Why use Barnes for Moose and smaller??

beartooth
November 12, 2009, 04:16 PM
I agree, that is why I use the 225gr Sierra SBT for my main hunting load on deer in my 358Win.

DannySeesUSMC
November 12, 2009, 04:19 PM
beartooth I like your test and pictures....testing speaks much louder than campfire type talk.

It's incredible the Nosler Partition is an old bullet that can only be hoped to be matched in all-around performance. To get the same great performance the other companies would have to build the same bullet pretty much. It's just a brilliant design that covers everything we want in a hunting bullet...

beartooth
November 12, 2009, 04:27 PM
Amen!!!!! You are singing to the choir now:D

beartooth
November 12, 2009, 04:43 PM
More pictures of the remain back part of the 210gr Partition

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9246.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9245.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9244.jpg

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 04:45 PM
In this medium 12inches is given as an approximate penetration depth to where the bullet will either exit an Elk or similar size game....or be stuck just under the hide on the off-side.


That's considered an advantage by some, in case they need a good blood trail.

Why use Barnes for Moose and smaller??

So you can use a less-powerful round and get the same penetration?

Not everyone considers the .338 WinMag to be a great all-purpose hunting cartridge.

Now the wound cavity numbers from the Barnes above don't look that great, but WRT penetration, why not drop back to a more reasonable all-around cartridge and load it with the deeper penetrator?

That's the reason I'd be interested in, say, the GMX, not so I can overpenetrate with a hot Magnum that already does fine with a lead core bullet.

I'm not arguing about it; I'm wondering about it. If I'm way off with my thinking, I'm interested in knowing the how and why of it.:)

DannySeesUSMC
November 12, 2009, 06:03 PM
Some people will say to use a super-penetrating bullet such as the Barnes because of variables in the field that you might have to take a shot where the animal is heavily quartering towards you or away from you. With the Partitions and Accubonds we are not talking about short penetration however. They will usually out-penetrate bullets which retain more weight and have a larger retained diameter.

The most likely variable that is there with every single shot in the field is accuracy. In field positions your accuracy is not the same as shooting at the range off a bench. This variable is more important than being able to penetrate 4 ft of animal. With Partitions, Accubonds, and regular old soft-points of decent size you have a much higher chance of damaging vitals than you do with a Barnes, GMX, etc.

Look at the difference in wounds here http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/WoundProfilesAfterWallBarrier.jpg

The Barnes is going to act more like the 9mm and 45 at the top and the Partion/Accubond will act more like the Hornady A-Max at the bottom.

The wound cavity is what kills, it doesn't matter if the Barnes is still penetrating a year later and goes through a few trees after it goes through the deer or elk.

The other bullets will fly through the air better and do more killing damage to the animal. How many Partitions have killed Brown Bear and larger....what is the extra penetration of the Barnes for??

The only merit the monolithic expanding bullets seem to show is with giant african animals or people who are paranoid about having some lead shed off traditional bullets into their meat. Why pay so much more for the extra penetration?

ArmedBear
November 12, 2009, 06:16 PM
Why pay so much more for the extra penetration?

Uh, Nosler's E-Tip and Partition bullets are about the same price. The E-Tips are a buck or two cheaper per box. That's really not a primary concern, anyway.

The A-Max might look good in gelatin, but it wouldn't look like that if you hit a bone or even thick hide. Furthermore, the reason that particular chart looks like it does is that the interior wall fills the JHP's tip and prevents expansion of the pistol rounds, whereas that's not relevant to an A-Max (or an E-Tip, GMX, etc.).

This is a GMX bullet:
http://www.hornady.com/assets/images/products/bullets/mushrooms/gmx-mushroom.jpg

Now, assuming that Hornady didn't cheat with the picture, it sure doesn't look to me like it goes straight through with no expansion.

Here's an E-Tip:
http://www.nosler.com/images/etip_copy3.jpg

And a Partition:
http://www.nosler.com/images/partition_copy10.jpg

DannySeesUSMC
November 12, 2009, 07:19 PM
I don't know how those do in tests and animal autopsy. I wouldn't doubt if the Partition still ends up penetrating deeper now and then. Wound cavity should still end up going to the Accubond and Partition.

Losing weight with the average pistol cartridge and bullet does not do any big favors...but with rifle bullets the lost weight is radiated outwards in a cone that provides more damage than a good expanding bullet which retains 90% or more of its weight.

In the test I linked to earlier the Hornady Interbond retained something like 94% of its weight but because it became so wide it didn't penetrate as far as the Accubond or Partition....in this case though it trumped the others in wound cavity pretty easily. So in a deer sized animal that bullet probably would of been the most devastating. The only thing with Interbonds is that they are not as consistent as Accubonds and Partitions and do not offer the same blend of great penetration and wound cavity.

Now if the Nosler E-Tip or Hornady GMX retain 95% of their weight they will either act just like the Hornady Interbond and really tear up some stuff but not drive as deep as a Partition or they will tear up stuff, fold down closer to the shank and penetrate as well or a little better than a Partition.

I guess time will tell and more tests of the E-Tip and GMX will be very welcome.

Sometimes a Nosler Ballistic Tip, Hornady SST, or Berger VLD will be perfect as well.

257WM_CDL-SF
November 12, 2009, 08:16 PM
I dont think you can argue with the partition,It has taken more game than anything,And remains the bullet by which others are judged

Horsemany
November 12, 2009, 09:45 PM
I dont think you can argue with the partition,It has taken more game than anything,And remains the bullet by which others are judged

Agreed. The beauty of the Partition is you get the initial rapid, violent expansion of a frangible bullet with the penetration of a more robust bullet. The best of both worlds IMO. Barnes and other solids offer more penetration than necessary and less expansion than desireable IME.

beartooth
November 12, 2009, 10:50 PM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9257.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9255.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9254.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/mhsp68/IMG_9253.jpg

DannySeesUSMC
November 12, 2009, 10:57 PM
For people still curious about the benefit of using a 210 grain bullet that only retains 148-155 grains....please ponder this for a moment....

Why did John Nosler specifically design the Partition to retain roughly 70% of its weight when he could have had the actual partition in the bullet placed further towards the tip and make retention 80-90%?

Within that answer is also the reason the Accubond was designed to duplicate it's performance as closely as popular. They could of easily made that bullet also retain 90-95% like the Scirocco or Interbond.

Losing 65-75% by design was the result of testing the bullet over and over again on big game. Better than 50%....better than 90%....testified by thousands of hunters throughout the years.

beartooth's 210gr. Partition is basically hitting the target with a deep-driving 60gr. varmint bullet and 150gr. monolithic bullet at the same time.

Super-high velocity and super-high weight retention sell bullets but don't let either one trick you.

t165
November 12, 2009, 11:54 PM
No good deed goes unpunished ArmedBear. I enjoyed your write up and the pictures. The Nosler Partition has been putting big game down for years and they are as deadly today as they ever were. All bullet designs are engineered with different tasks in mind. Therefore, all bullets are a compromise. No single design is perfect for all applications.

I also shoot this caliber and bullet weight/design ArmedBear. Are you shooting handloads? The Federal Premium factory loaded 210 grain Nosler Partitions are only listed at being loaded to 2830fps. Seldom does factory ammunition meet or exceed listed velocity.

beartooth
November 13, 2009, 12:03 AM
I am not sure I understand your post. ArmedBear did not write the article. If you were referring to the author then I do use hand-loads, in fact that is all I shoot and my 210gr hand load for hunting is moving at 2936fps. beartooth

t165
November 13, 2009, 12:22 AM
My bad beartooth. I was directing my questions to you. ArmedBear/beartooth...too many bears to keep track of after a hard days work. :)

dubbleA
November 13, 2009, 01:09 AM
Maybe it's just me but what is the point here? Ok, the bullet made it through 6 jugs of water. Are you going to compare it others with the exact same setup? Say 225gr 250gr, Barnes X, Nosler E-tips, Accubonds, Hornady Interbond, Swift A Frames and others?

DannySeesUSMC
November 13, 2009, 01:27 AM
I think the point is now more people know you don't need a bullet to retain 90-100% of its weight for great penetration. Not only that, but also that the bullet which sheds this percentage of weight (65-75%) does not need to be heavy for caliber like many believe to get this great penetration.

Do you see it? How many have just read the articles on chuckhawks.com and other places where sectional density is simply the key to penetration....

Internet campfire talk would have you believe a 150 grain .270 round at the same velocity as a 150 grain .30 caliber round will have the .270 round giving better penetration - but the bullet design and construction is everything.

Now maybe a new .338 Win Mag shooter will think a little bit before he grabs some 225 or 250 grain load for elk or moose when he really does not need more than this 210 grain Partition.

StrawHat
November 13, 2009, 06:46 AM
Good information in the first post.

I always liked Partition bullets. The nose doesn't vanish when it hits the target. It shatters into various bits of shrapnel and does what it can to anchor the game. The base continues on it's merry way and furthers the cause.

Bullet casters have been doing it for years.

Vern Humphrey
November 13, 2009, 09:00 AM
And that's the whole point to the Nosler Partition -- it works. No need to debate theories about weight retention and so on when the elk go down every time you hit them.

beartooth
November 13, 2009, 09:08 AM
DoubleA, it went through seven, it stuck in the back side of seven. Just clearing that up. :)

Steve Marshall
November 13, 2009, 09:43 AM
Beartooth et al. Why not perform the same test with a Barnes Triple X in the 185 grain version? Make sure you maximize the velocity and see what you get.

beartooth
November 13, 2009, 09:55 AM
Steve, the last four years I have compared on game the Accubond, TSX and Partition and the Partition by far is a better killer. I have seen and experienced in the field many times and I mean many times on hunts and culling for the state I live in that the TSX can penetrate deep but it is not on a consistent bases a quick killer and does not get close to being one on the above mention comparison on game against the Partition.

Penetration and weight retention is over emphasized and in theory is given a superior position but in reality the Partition and it's design is by far the more superior killer and a much quicker one. I have been so disappointed over the long haul with the TSX that I do not use them anymore. I truly tried to give them the benefit of the doubt when they came out and thought when I first got them that they would surely be the next best thing to sliced bread but they are not for me.

dubbleA
November 13, 2009, 10:57 AM
DoubleA, it went through seven, it stuck in the back side of seven. Just clearing that up.



I would respectably disagree. If I shoot an arrow into a bale of hay and it passes through and stikes a second one and sticks in it did it pass through? If I shoot a series of 1/4" plate and it fails to penetrate say the 4th one did it go through? A bullet going into the 7th jug and not exiting did not go through it.

It's really a moot point, the OP proves nothing but that a 210gr .338 partition traveling 2936fps will go through 6 "hard plastic" jugs of water at 10ft.:confused:

ArmedBear
November 13, 2009, 11:11 AM
Steve, the last four years I have compared on game the Accubond, TSX and Partition and the Partition by far is a better killer. I have seen and experienced in the field many times and I mean many times on hunts and culling for the state I live in that the TSX can penetrate deep but it is not on a consistent bases a quick killer and does not get close to being one on the above mention comparison on game against the Partition.

Thank you, beartooth! That's exactly what I was curious about.

There are many people with religious beliefs about bullets (see above). I don't bank on these beliefs, since you'll find people who will tell you that the .30-30 is the best caliber ever, too.

Since you've actually shot a lot of game with these bullets, that's what I want to know about.:)

It's really a moot point, the OP proves nothing but that a 210gr .338 partition traveling 2936fps will go through 6 "hard plastic" jugs of water at 10ft

Yeah, a 520 grain Postell from a black powder .45-70 could probably beat that on sheer momentum, less of a pressure wave in the water, and zero expansion. In fact, I'm almost sure it would. That wouldn't make it a bettter ELK round than a .338 WinMag with a 210 grain Partition.

Hence my interest in other aspects of the bullet, which beartooth just wrote about.

Thanks again, beartooth.

beartooth
November 13, 2009, 01:53 PM
I delete this response of mine.

usmc1371
November 13, 2009, 01:59 PM
Armedbear,

I will try to answer part of your question, I think that when that front part of the bullet is opening up and seperating from the rear section it is expelling a major part of its energy in a rather short amount of time. This energy is absorbed by tissue wich results in damage/wound cavity. With the barns ( wich I have personaly never shot) I think the expansion is slower so the energy needed to expand the bullet is spread farther though the animal but has less initial "impact".
I have shot over a dozen elk with 180 grain partitions form both 30-06 and 300wm with outstanding results with shots at all sorts of angles. My best friend who shoots 300 wby doesn't like the nosler's because he says on close range shots they "blow up" to easy and don't seem to penatrate. He now uses nothing but barns and loves them. I think for the most part bullet choice is just a personal choice. I did shoot one cow elk with a nosler ballistic tip wich I learned was a poor choice so I guess its a live and learn thing.

beartooth
November 13, 2009, 05:37 PM
The following is part of an article that by Mac who knows what he is talking about and I think it explains a great deal.

My experience with both types of bullets, (bonded and none bonded partitions) on very large mean animals that require some killing to stop.

This may not mean anything to an elk or deer hunter, but I think it may shed some light on the subject. The two partition type bullets most commonly used on heavy animals are the Nosler Partition (Unbonded), and the Swift A-frame (Bonded). For this comparison we will take cape Buffalo, which have a hide and bone that can do some real damage to a bullet. and require a lot of penetration to get to the vitals, and beyond.

The only one shot kills I have ever experienced on Cape Buffalo have been with a 300 gr Nosler Partitions from a 375 H&H, while all others required at least three shots regardless of bullet type, or caliber. The Swift A-frames are used a lot by client hunters on Buffalo in Africa, but are not well liked by most PHs there. The fact that they are bonded makes the form a mushroom type expansion, that is very smooth, and does far less tissue damage along the wound channel, than the same weight Nosler Partition, which framents the front part of the bullet, spreying shrapnell throug the lungs, and heart even if it misses the heart by a little. The penetration of the bonded A-frame may be a bit more than the Partition, but I haven't seen it if it is.

I shot a Cape Buffalo bull just where the neck meets the shoulder and low in line with the heart/lung area, and aimed at the off side hind leg. The Partition entered about 10" above the brisket, ripped the top of the heart to shreds, and part of the front of the right lung, and totally destroying the left lung. rangeing into the paunch, filled tight with grass, and ended up just under the skin in front of the left hind leg. Killing the buffalo in 30 feet where he went down on his nose. The bullet is in front of me as I type this, and it lost most of the front half of the bullet, but the back took it all the way to his hind leg, about 4 1/2 feet of penetration, and the damage was extensive.

I think the bonded core bullets are fine on deer elk, and moose, but on the big "bite backs" make mine a Nosler partition if it is available in the caliber I'm shooting.

The penetrations tests like the one posted here are not very valuable, as an indication of what a bullet will do on animals, but they are fun to do anyway. That would show a better indication if the jugs had been closed in between two one by six and fronted with about 8 inches of wet news print, then a piece of 3/8ths inch plywood soaked for a few days before the test, then aboth three jugs, aniother piece of the 3/8th s plywood, then 8 inches of wet news print on the other end of the column. This would have more closely duplicated a broadside elk or moose, or with more added a length wise shot on a big elk.

I like to see the results of this done a little differently, though nothing will actually duplicate an elk but an elk!

ASCTLC
November 13, 2009, 06:36 PM
4 elk in two years.
All 4 elk taken with 180 partitions.
All broadside lung shots (we don't aim for meat wasting shoulder shots),
No recoverable bullets. They all went through and out the other side, leaving about a nickle size hole exit.

Hunting partner got a 5x5 last year and a big mature 6x6 this year. 2 w/ 300 Win Mag. His shots were roughly 150 yards. Both of his ran about 30-40 yards before falling.

I got a nice mature 6x6 last year and a spike this year. 2 with 30-06 (Fed light mag). My shots roughly 100 yards. My 6x6 dropped without even lifting a foot and my spike took a few very lethargic steps and dropped.

Kinda hard to consider another bullet type with results like these. Unless another bullet can field dress the elks for us when shot, there's just no room for improvement...

Andy

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