Service Rifle Poll


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InkEd
November 12, 2009, 11:33 PM
Which of the leading service rifles would you pick if given a choice? Feel free to explain why.

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Isher
November 12, 2009, 11:48 PM
Czech VZ58 in 7.62 x 39.

They have been building them, and tuning them since 1958.

I recollect somewhere that more than a million have been made to date.

I'm not going to get into the whole bolt gun vs. semi/full auto

Discussion here.

But I will tell you that as a stock weapon

(If you have enough money, you can turn any pig's ear

Into a silk purse)

The 58 leaves all the AK variants and the AR's

Well back in the pack.

isher

ChronoCube
November 12, 2009, 11:57 PM
Are we talking about your own individual use or equipping a whole army?

Balrog
November 13, 2009, 12:03 AM
I am assuming you are talking about semi-auto versions of those guns, and that it is going to be used by me alone, and I am not equipping an army.

I would go with an AR. You can find spare parts anywhere. Ammo is light weight and plentiful.

InkEd
November 13, 2009, 12:07 AM
The vz58 is seemingly a nice weapon. I know little about them though. Aesthetically, it is similar to the AK. In terms of operation from what I've heard isn't "more or less" a piston driven Kalashnikov system. Kind of equivalent of Ruger SR 556 to the standard AR15/M16? Please enlighten me. Are they as indestructible as the AK.

ByAnyMeans
November 13, 2009, 12:07 AM
I voted AK. Give me it anyday. I did not choose one of the full battle rifles because of weight of ammo. I am also familiar with the AK and not the AR so there you have it.

InkEd
November 13, 2009, 12:18 AM
I chose the AK because of reliability and ease of use.

Individually or Unit? Let's say survivalist (ala "Red Dawn" for cheese factor) group.

Auto/Semi? For the purpose of the thread let's say Select Fire the God and the designers intended them.

Isher
November 13, 2009, 12:20 AM
InkEd -

Here's a nice comp.

http://50ae.net/VZ-vs-AK/


isher

armoredman
November 13, 2009, 12:30 AM
Sheesh, I got beat to it? :) :D

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/EBRwstyle.jpg

vz-58 rocks.

federalfarmer
November 13, 2009, 12:37 AM
AK's everywhere, and very durable. And I like the 7.62x39 round.

belus
November 13, 2009, 12:39 AM
I was expecting the options to be AR-15, M14, Garand or '03 Springfield.

InkEd
November 13, 2009, 12:46 AM
Thank you for the link. The vz seems like a more rifined rifle than the Ak. I definitely wouldn't mind having one. I will stick with my original ak pick because of the simplicity and part availablity. I think the soviet 7.62x39. Is one of the best rounds ever.

amprecon
November 13, 2009, 01:11 AM
I voted other and choose this XCR in 6.8spc.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=107987&d=1256520736

desidog
November 13, 2009, 01:22 AM
5.56 is a varmint round
AKs don't have the long range accuracy
Some options are not ambidextrous - I'm a lefty
the AUG can jam if you hit the bottom of the mag right

...so I go M14.

Ignition Override
November 13, 2009, 01:32 AM
From the list, have only fired a few rounds from an AR, a WASR "AK" and several from an authentic German HK G-3.

The G-3s characteristics and solid, long-range punch have a very strong appeal. My only hang-up is with the fairly pricey .308 ammo for frequent practice.

Although I've never tried out my friend's Garand, am surprised that it is not on the list. The CMP sells tons of these (for quality and power, not just historical value), and its military 30-06 ammo is sold out for a while.

Just can't get excited about the .223 round, other than price.

Shadow Man
November 13, 2009, 02:01 AM
Which of the leading service rifles would you pick if given a choice? Feel free to explain why.

Well, if given a choice of those rifles, I have three main calibers to chose from: 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and 7.62x51mm. Assuming I have to actually use this rifle for an extended period of time to possibly: hunt, defend myself and my family, or (in the spirit of "Red Dawn") take back my corner of Cimarron NM, (where the movie was actually filmed) I'd need a general all-around cartridge that could do most anything. This weapon, and its round of choice, would be called upon to perform many tasks from dropping most kinds of North American game such as whitetail, muley's, turkey's, and other types of small game and four-legged vermin, to effectively stopping two-legged vermin types. This round could also be called upon to penetrate barriers such as car windshields, common housing materials, etc. (once again, assuming I am completely on my own, and someone attempts to run me off the road, break into my safe shelter, or perform some other equally nefarious act. Think it can't happen? Watch the one and a half seasons of the CBS show Jericho. Yes, it's only TV, but every once in awhile they get things right.) Also, since I would be, in essence, by myself, the round would have to be light-weight enough to allow me to carry significant amounts on or about my person (vehicle perhaps) without grossly fatiguing me.

That qualification, unfortunately, rules out 7.62x51mm. I don't want to hear any arguing about it! If you think you can carry combat loads of 7.62x51mm over great distances and still maintain exceptional situational awareness and the ability to outmaneuver a foe...you should ruck up, get that battle rattle on and go try it for a weekend. I'm serious. Granted, you get weird looks walking along the Appalacian Trail with nearly full battle rattle but it surely shows you your limitations. (- 12lbs...I left the rifle at home, weapons on the AT are a touchy subject)

Remember though, this round also has to have enough punch to not only kill most types of game animal found in North America, but also to successfully penetrate barriers, whatever they may be. And while the 5.56x45mm round is very lightweight, and has a decent track record, I do not have enough faith in it to be an all-purpose round. The bullets are too light, even the 77gr ones, for me to want to take a shot at anything larger than a coyote. Yes, I know whitetail can be taken with the 5.56x45mm round, but think of the scenario: you're hungry, tired, scared, probably pushed well out of your comfort zone, and who knows how many other factors are effecting you at that moment in time. When you go to take that shot at what potentially could be dinner, do you want to take the shot and then have to potentially track a wounded animal for who knows how far through the woods? Say you are in a vehicle moving towards better hunting grounds, or trying to link up with family or friends and someone attempts to force you off the road. Do you really trust that little 5.56x45mm round to have the ability to punch through the windshield of a car and incapacitate the driver, or introduce enough foreign mass into the engine of the vehicle to cause a catastrophic failure? Personally, no, I do not. I think the 5.56x45mm round is a great round for plinking, small game, and general light duty, but if cast into a scenario where my rifle is my life, I think it leaves much to be desired.

No I am not trying to say that the 7.62x39mm round is perfect, a wonder round, or that the weapons platform that delivers it is perfect for every situation, but I do think that the system provides the best of both worlds: relatively light weight for increased ammunition carrying capacity while still maintaining significant lethality in a compact, light weight (When compared to most 7.62x51mm systems) reliable, easy to use and easy to maintain platform. No disrespect to the AR system, I am a big fan, its ease of use, inherant accuracy and ergonomics are hard to beat, yet I think its round needs an upgrade. I will readily agree that out of their respective platforms, the 7.62x39mm round has nowhere near the range of the 5.56x45mm round. To this I counter: if I am in all out survival mode and a threat appears outside of my engagement range I will pound sand and vacate the area before he can find, fix, and destroy me. Depending upon the scenario, once I have removed myself from his LOS and LOF, I will then proceed to either avoid his last known location like the plague, or close with the target until I am within the operational parameters of my system. I will also agree that in their familiar guise, the 5.56x45mm round and platform is far more accurate than that of the 7.62x39. However, with enough practice, the AK-47/AKM family of rifles is in fact quite shootable with a fair degree of accuracy. Probably more accuracy than most of us are capable of shooting...I mean, really shooting. From combat-type positions, after a hard run, or when you're scared or angry. So while my choice is not perfect, and has flaws, I think it provides the best of both worlds. My vote goes to the AK-47/AKM family of rifles.

10-Ring
November 13, 2009, 02:36 AM
Of the options listed, I would go w/ an M14

DannySeesUSMC
November 13, 2009, 02:58 AM
Good post Shadow Man, thanks for the spaces!


Guys in general....remember a good bullet design used with the .223/5.56 is MUCH better than your average FMJ loading in some of the other calibers. It's not conjecture or theory. It is plenty for humans at combat ranges if you hit the right locations. That is the hard part in real life.

InkEd
November 13, 2009, 05:15 AM
Shadowman,

+1 on the AK

-1 on the longest post ever.

Max C.
November 13, 2009, 05:50 AM
I shoot .30 caliber rounds well so anything in that range would work for me. I like the Garand and imagine that I'd also like the M14 so I picked that.

John Parker
November 13, 2009, 07:27 AM
The 58 leaves all the AK variants and the AR's

Well back in the pack.



It was simply so much better that as soon as the Czechs came out with it, the AK ceased to be manufactured.

Come on. They are good rifles, but they aren't night and day better than everything out there.

Also--for the love of GOD, please stop hitting <enter> twice after five or six words. It's painful reading your otherwise generally intelligent and well said comments. Your text will automatically fit the screen.

EddieNFL
November 13, 2009, 09:33 AM
M4 in CQB; M14 in open areas.

dom1104
November 13, 2009, 09:46 AM
For me this question is answerable only one way.

the AR is the only one with a fantastic and easy to swap in and out 22lr conversion, and for me thats a must.

AR + CMMG Stainless 22lr conversion + 10 22LR mags + 20 AR Mags + QD red dot + little rubber tube to throw the other bolt into.

Fantastic, fun, and ... pretty much perfect for me.

I dont buy that the 5.56 cant take deer, and thats from my personal experiance. <shhh>

Shadow Man
November 13, 2009, 10:22 AM
Dom, I never said that the 5.56x45mm couldn't take a deer. In fact, I said quite the opposite. What I said was that in less-than-optimal conditions, I wouldn't want to rely upon it as my sole rifle for putting meat on the table.

My apologies for a super long post, it was late, I was bored, and apparantly poured all of my creative juices into that. However, "suffer" through it? No sir, I do not expect anyone to do anything that obviously so greatly pains them, however; even in the light of day it was still a well thought out, rational post. And I might add, most words are spelled correctly, and the grammar seems to be okay. I don't know what there is to "suffer" through...

will919
November 13, 2009, 10:52 AM
I have owned 1- AK and 2-AR15s like them all....I guess it boils down to accuracy and preferencial look for me. Therefore my vote is for the M16 variant

Bill

dom1104
November 13, 2009, 11:07 AM
My apologies for a super long post, it was late, I was bored, and apparantly poured all of my creative juices into that. However, "suffer" through it? No sir, I do not expect anyone to do anything that obviously so greatly pains them, however; even in the light of day it was still a well thought out, rational post. And I might add, most words are spelled correctly, and the grammar seems to be okay. I don't know what there is to "suffer" through...


I agree, I thought it was a great and well thought out post. I dont get why people complain about paragraphs, just get thru it.

Moose458
November 13, 2009, 11:09 AM
+1 on the VZ 58 Always been a big fan of the AK (and still am) but after getting my CZ vz 58, it has become my all time favorite.

InkEd
November 13, 2009, 02:52 PM
I am surprised the AUG has not received a single vote. Also am surprised the m14 has gotten so many votes. Although, I would pick it over the m16, it is still surprising to see how many others would too.

Also, would have thought the venerable FAL would be more popular.

possum
November 13, 2009, 02:56 PM
i choose the m-16 varient. why an ar/m4 is what i am most highly trained on compared to any other shoulder fired firearm. i have been using them for multiple deployments, and years in the army. however the most and best training i have had on them is in the civilian sector. that is what i am confident and best with. therefore that is what i would choose.

InkEd
November 13, 2009, 03:18 PM
That is a logical reason to pick the m16.

Would it still be your first pick if you had equal experience with the others or no experience with any of them?

Babarsac
November 13, 2009, 03:29 PM
I would take the AK platform any day. Simple rugged design, can withstand harsh treatment, and I have yet for one to jam or misfire in any way.

KBintheSLC
November 13, 2009, 03:38 PM
1st choice would be an AK

A close 2nd is the M14

I have a bias towards long-stroke piston rifles. They just work.

Broken-Tengu
November 13, 2009, 07:10 PM
Dom, I never said that the 5.56x45mm couldn't take a deer. In fact, I said quite the opposite. What I said was that in less-than-optimal conditions, I wouldn't want to rely upon it as my sole rifle for putting meat on the table.

My apologies for a super long post, it was late, I was bored, and apparantly poured all of my creative juices into that. However, "suffer" through it? No sir, I do not expect anyone to do anything that obviously so greatly pains them, however; even in the light of day it was still a well thought out, rational post. And I might add, most words are spelled correctly, and the grammar seems to be okay. I don't know what there is to "suffer" through...
Don't apologize for that post, Shadow Man. Very informative, and very well-written !

armoredman
November 13, 2009, 08:02 PM
dom1104...the vz-58 will be available in .223 end of this year, and the 22lr conversion kit out early next year. :)

Shadow Man
November 13, 2009, 08:39 PM
Guys in general....remember a good bullet design used with the .223/5.56 is MUCH better than your average FMJ loading in some of the other calibers. It's not conjecture or theory. It is plenty for humans at combat ranges if you hit the right locations. That is the hard part in real life.

Danny, I will agree, the 5.56x45mm round has been doing yeoman's work for decades, and mostly succeeding at it. However, I feel I have to point out that a good bullet design in any common small arms caliber will be more effective than an average FMJ round in any other caliber...that is simply common sense. The average FMJ round for the military's 5.56x45mm round (I simply use that as an example because the military has more experience with the round than any civilian shooter) is the 62gr SS109, or M855 I believe. It has a "green tip" which allows it to punch through cover much more easily than its predecessor, the 55gr M193. However, that same ability to punch through 1/4in steel plates means that when you engage a target with the 5.56x45mm's standard FMJ round you are simply punching .223 caliber holes through the target...

However, if I compared the terminal ballistics of the M855 round to say, a hunters OTM, BT or SP round weighing 123gr (approx.) in 7.62x39, the data gathered would invariably swing in the direction of the purpose-designed OTM and SP rounds as being more effective. The same would be true of a 77gr OTM or SP 5.56x45mm round compared to a M43 or M67 standard FMJ round in 7.62x39. See what I'm getting at? Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Such as: M193 vs. M43 (first gen round for each weapon system) or M855 vs M67 (second gen round).

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
November 13, 2009, 10:20 PM
I'll take a G3 and an AK please, they the most reliable and brutally simple designs in the list.

DannySeesUSMC
November 13, 2009, 10:48 PM
I know what you are saying Shadow Man, I picked the FAL rifle on the poll and would interchange that with other .308's. More margin for shot placement with adrenaline pumping and good barrier penetration/wound cavities with any scavenged up hunting ammo.

I like the 7.62x39 also, I think loaded with 110 V-Max or 125 Ballistic Tip's it's hard to top for taking chunks out of meat with rapid-fire. The 110 V-Max especially would perform at it's best coming out with lower than 308/30-06 velocity. Uber-reliability is icing on the cake.

Shadow Man
November 14, 2009, 01:34 AM
Cannot argue with that, sir. Well said.

mcschrader
November 14, 2009, 02:12 AM
I went with the M-16 varient because its more accurate than the AK, though (as a military member I carry an M4) M4s and M16 are more prone to malfunctions. I guess if you would like to trade accuracy for durability, the AK would be your weapon.

gunnutery
November 14, 2009, 02:53 AM
Good question. I chose "other" because I'm really a fan of the bullpup concept and I didn't see a bullpup with the following feature mentioned; "Total ambidexterous ejection" for lack of a better term (I just made that term up). The AUG and Tavor were mentioned and while I hear great things about them, they still eject brass right or left. For "Patrol (I assume by patrol the OP means law enforcement) Rifles" I think a bullpup with forward or bottom ejection system would be the best possible option. I believe the bullpup design would be the best for shooting from within the car and exiting. And I think for patrol in urban areas the forward or bottom ejection is essential for the ablility to switch shooting shoulders. So I say either the FN FS2000 or the KelTec RFB.

BsChoy
November 14, 2009, 10:37 AM
I voted for an M16 variant...I love the 5.56 but a variant in 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel would be a winning combo. If you could stretch the definition of M16 variant to include an AR10 in 308 that would be my choice with an 18" barrel and a sound suppressor of short design.

armoredman
November 14, 2009, 11:14 AM
Shadow Man, another voice saying your post was well done.
I'd love to try a KelTec RFB, but the price is waaaay out of reach for me. My vz-58 seems to be more accurate than AKM semi auto clones I have owned, (One we couldn't get on paper at 100 yards), very reliable and durable, still in service in the Czech Republic and twelve other countries. Downsides are heating, and magazines are nowhere near as easy to find as AR or AK mags, but that is changing. Czechpoint-USA has good mags cheap and plentiful, all made before the ban, for people who live in ban states with grandfather clauses - paperwork is on file.

alistaire
November 14, 2009, 11:22 AM
M16 variant or AR-10 variant. Sometimes you just need a bigger bullet.

Patriotme
November 14, 2009, 11:35 AM
It depends on the situation. Am I kicking in doors in Iraq, shooting from mountaintops in Afghanistan or buying a SHTF gun in the Eastern United States? One size doesn't fit all.

Shadow Man
November 14, 2009, 01:47 PM
Thank you for the positive feedback on the post. It is much appreciated.

Patriotme: While some of us have been door kickers, and spent some time in the 'Stan, the general member on here has not, so I personally approached the poll from the perspective of a good SHTF gun.

And while no, one gun does not fit all, if you could only have one gun, which would it be? (hint: read my post to see what kind of tasks said rifle may be called upon to perform...I don't want to sit here and re-list them)

InkEd
November 14, 2009, 10:56 PM
Well said shadowman. No one does not fit all but if you could only have one what would it be for you?

BrianB
November 14, 2009, 11:07 PM
I voted "other". My latest dream is the Masada/ACR. Otherwise, the RFB.

Titan6
November 14, 2009, 11:10 PM
XCR in 6.8spc.

InkEd
November 14, 2009, 11:49 PM
For the purpose of this thread I think we can allow an ar10 as an m16 variant.

Balog
November 15, 2009, 12:01 AM
Shadowman,

+1 on the AK

-1 on the longest post ever.

If you don't want people to explain their choices a discussion forum is probably the wrong place to be. ;)

I'd concur with Shadowman's reasoning. My next rifle purchase will most likely be either a Kvar converted Saiga or .357 levergun. Gogo cowboy logistics.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 15, 2009, 12:04 AM
I gotta go with XCR also.

armoredman - dude; DUDE! :)

C-grunt
November 15, 2009, 12:19 AM
FN M-16. Used them in the Army and had a DMR version for my 05 vacation to Iraq. Great rifle. Accurate, reliable and pretty light compared to some.

Balog
November 15, 2009, 12:20 AM
FN M-16. Used them in the Army and had a DMR version for my 05 vacation to Iraq. Great rifle. Accurate, reliable and pretty light compared to some.

That was not my experience during my own time in Iraq. Don't want to start an argument, merely pointing that out.

C-grunt
November 15, 2009, 01:14 AM
The average FMJ round for the military's 5.56x45mm round (I simply use that as an example because the military has more experience with the round than any civilian shooter) is the 62gr SS109, or M855 I believe. It has a "green tip" which allows it to punch through cover much more easily than its predecessor, the 55gr M193. However, that same ability to punch through 1/4in steel plates means that when you engage a target with the 5.56x45mm's standard FMJ round you are simply punching .223 caliber holes through the target...



Shadow Man... the 62gr "green tip" still does yaw and shatter in soft tissue. Might not do it as reliably as the old M193 but from my experience it works really well. From my two deployments I have seen some really really nasty wounds from the M855.

In fact I have never seen a .223 caliber exit wound.

Personally I think the military going to a heavier bullet, 70+ grain, would be a good choice for more accuracy and reliable yawing at longer ranges.

blackops
November 15, 2009, 01:20 AM
M4 in CQB; M14 in open areas.


+1

I do like the XCR and SIG, but they just haven't been proven fully reliable. The M4 and M14 are proven.

happygeek
November 15, 2009, 01:46 AM
I own an AR (but in 22LR, not 5.56), a Sig 556, and a M1A. My favorite would have to be the M1A, although the 22LR AR is a LOT of fun to shoot and do CQB stuff with. The M1A is the first rifle I ever owned, and I still love that thing to death. It's the one rifle I own that's more accurate than I am. Just tonight, I was at the range shooting the M1A and Sig 556 at 200 yard man size targets. Same shooter, same position (prone with sandbags), iron sights on both. I did considerably better with the M1A, although at 150 and 100 yards there wasn't a noticeable difference in accuracy (but even the 22LR AR does good at 100 yards). I once told the wife I was more accurate with the M1A because the muzzle is already half way to the target.

On a side note, it sucks how early it gets dark now. I would have shot even better with the M1A but it's hard to see that skinny national match front sight post in low light conditions.

fugi
November 15, 2009, 02:17 AM
I'm with Isher on the VZ-58. That or a FAL. I'm real fond of 7.62s and I don't like rotating locking bolts, even if it's fairly simple like the AKs. tilting bolt or breech block all the way for me. why? because forcing nondescript crud out of a magwell or receiver with the bolt or breech block is easier than forcing it out of a barrel extension with the bolt in the way by means of mashing the lugs in there as it really has nowhere to easily go. the FAL with sand cuts on the bolts, either commonwealth or israeli style, seem to work well for smaller particulate that doesn't originate from the operating of the firearm. Both the VZ and FAL are short stroke, mitigating fouling from firing as well. and they're purdy.

armoredman
November 15, 2009, 02:50 AM
Dr Winslow, what, WHAT? :) :D


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/whereveryouneedtogo.jpg

Shadow Man
November 15, 2009, 02:58 AM
Shadow Man... the 62gr "green tip" still does yaw and shatter in soft tissue. Might not do it as reliably as the old M193 but from my experience it works really well. From my two deployments I have seen some really really nasty wounds from the M855.

In fact I have never seen a .223 caliber exit wound.

I guess we've had some different experiences then. Care to leave it at that? I don't want to get in-depth into "this round does this, and this round does that." All I know is that from my personal experience, the 5.56x45mm's 62gr M855 round failed me when I needed it most. I'm glad it worked for you. It didn't for me, but that's neither here nor there. Call me old fashioned, but I'm just generally happier when I'm trusting my life to a weapon firing bullets 100grs or heavier. However, that is simply my opinion. Take it as you wish.

Balog
November 15, 2009, 03:15 AM
The problem with yawing is that it is so conditional. It only works at no less than X and no more than Y yards, where both X and Y are affected by a huge number of variables: barrel length, physical build of the target, body armour or no, penetrate cover first or not etc etc. It can work well, but is not reliable enough for my taste. Ymmv imho etc.

Shadow Man
November 15, 2009, 03:24 AM
And variables are the fiber of the world Balog. My mileage did not vary, just so you know.

On another note, maybe I didn't see it, but what would you chose, out of the given list?

Balog
November 15, 2009, 03:39 AM
I think I did mention it, actually. ;) Kvar converted Saiga from the list (and a bunch of 20 round mags so I can get a decent prone/use low cover). In real life, either the Kvar or a stainless .357 lever gun for cowboy logistics. Been trying to lower my caliber footprint. I figure a lever with a good shooter can do most of the tasks an AK can, just to a shorter range. Only area it lacks in is protracted firefights at close range. Since I've been in more than enough of those to last me a lifetime, I lean towards ye olde lever. Plus it's less "threatening" looking to a jury if I ever used it in self defense. Honestly the only reasons I want an AK are possible disasters leading to riots, and to piss off gun control people. :D

InkEd
November 15, 2009, 12:34 PM
A leveractionis an interesting choice. I would be concerned with reload speed though and the ability to reach out and touch someone. Interesting choice nonetheless.

Shadow Man
November 15, 2009, 12:40 PM
Somehow I missed that Balog. Good choice, in the right hands a leveraction is as useful as any "black" gun. But that's the key, really: it's not the weapon, but the operator. Too often I think that is overlooked. Some of the gent's I had the honor of playing with would have been just as deadly with a Kentucky rifle as with the newest production from HK and FN.

In a perfect world, I'd love to have a Valmet Rk-95...but alas, the world is not perfect and I'm not made of money.

Balog
November 15, 2009, 05:07 PM
There are trade offs with anything, it's true. I don't plan on needing to reload in most situations (aside from riots), and I do not personally see much non-tikiwiki need for >150 yard engagement. And if I need to shoot something past there, that's why I have a scoped bolt action. :D But that's just me. :)

Shadow Man
November 16, 2009, 04:08 PM
Reload speed on a lever action should be fairly fast. Also, you can top off your tube mag as needed, unlike with a weapon utilizing a detachable box magazine. And in a full-blown SHTF scenario, unless things go horribly awry, you shouldn't find yourself in a protracted firefight anyway...at least if you're smart about it. The shorter, handier length of most lever action carbines is another plus, as well.

The key to any weapon system though is proficency. The priciest AR tricked out with grips, lasers, lights and scopes is useless if the operator is unfamiliar with the weapon's operation and capabilities.

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