Rem 700 R-5 Milspec .308


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JDGray
November 13, 2009, 05:22 AM
I've read mostly good on these rifles, but Benchrest.com thinks differently of them. Those that have loaded for this rifle, what kind of accuracy are you getting? My Savage 10FP, shoots .500" at 100yrds, off a bipod, with my Varget/ 168SMK combo. I would like to improove on that, and read the Milspec will shoot .250", what are some of your real world groups? My other option would be a custom barrel for the Savage:cool:

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USSR
November 13, 2009, 09:28 AM
Getting a sub-.5MOA <$1,000 factory rifle is like drawing an inside straight - possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Don

Uncle Mike
November 13, 2009, 12:14 PM
Oh yes, the Russian designed 5R rifling. Conceived by our ruisky friends across the globe and cabbaged onto by some of our firearm manufacturers as the 'ultimate' barrel rifling configuration.

Nonsense! In another way, if it were so good, cutting edge and oozed magic why don't all the bench guys, the guys that are making little, tinny tiny 5 shot groups as far away as the next zip code, and ALL the specialty sniper groups in the modern world, use it?

It sells rifles...and IF that particular rifle is being used by the military machine then, oh my, the sniper boys are using it, it HAS to be the best out there...right? Wrong!

There is nothing wrong or bad about 5R rifling, it is nothing special, other than the hype of the angle of the lands, less fouling, which is why the ruiskys designed it in the first place, not to enhance accuracy.

A quick call to the various top end barrel manufacturers will reveal the truth about 5R...

In today's world, if it made a difference that would mean large returns, or in other words, you would sell a butt load of them...so why don't we see more 5R out there....

It is less forgiving to produce, and has no appreciable advantage!

Those 700 5R's have been descent, but not outstanding as the price would suggest, not a bad rifle, but....

Your <.500/100y from your STOCK FACTORY BARREL Savage is not good enough? Then an aftermarket tube is the ticket...call Sharp Shooters Supply, and tell Fred what your up to...he can give some good barrel advice and manufacturers options.

Jim Watson
November 13, 2009, 12:37 PM
I note that Kreiger has struck a deal with Boots Obermeyer to make 5R barrels to his original design. They must have enough customers to make it worth their while. If you want to pay Kreiger $30 extra for the style, go for it.

I don't think the rifling plan makes a whole lot of difference in a factory rifle.

I don't know of any product so good that EVERYBODY uses it, there is always competition and comparison going on.

Sheepdog1968
November 13, 2009, 12:45 PM
From what I've read, most Rem 700's will shoot sub MOA from the factory. I like rifles but I'm not all knowing.

johnmcl
November 13, 2009, 01:28 PM
JD,

I understand your desire to close that gap up, admirable to say the least. However, let's look at things from an ROI perspective. Let's say that the R5 is capable of 1/4 MOA groups. The investment is rifle plus scope, so somewhere around $1400 to $2,000. Taking the the worst case of $2,000, the business decision is whether a $2,000 investment is worth that quarter inch. To expand it a little, the investment is then at $8,000 per MOA of improvement.

With that said, R5s are fine production grade rifles. I'm extremely happy with mine. I find it reliable and accurate across a range of reloading parameters. My favorite being 42 grains of IMR 4895 under a 168 SMK. I have shot 1/4 MOA groups. Ok, in truth in advertising there was only such group fired so far. However the point is that at least single data point of an R5 is just fine. The accuracy problems seem all to be contributed by me. :)

I'd be extremely happy with yours firing half inch groups, too That level of performance is well above what most production rifles can deliver.

JDGray
November 13, 2009, 02:50 PM
I've played arround with IMR4895, and 168 SMKs, and the thing didn't like it:mad: I shot my tried and true Varget load, and its was right back in the 5s.:) My skills are probably the limit, when I back up to 200yrds my groups open up to 1.5"- 2.5", but it may be the rifle. Thanks for all the insight so far.

The rifle I may trade for, will cost me a nice RRA Predator Pursuit!

DRYHUMOR
November 13, 2009, 03:29 PM
I heard of someone pulling a one hole group out of one, with reloads.

I've had two through the years. I wasn't that impressed with the hype, I've had PSS's that shot better. I didn't reload for it though.

USSR
November 13, 2009, 04:13 PM
...I have shot 1/4 MOA groups. Ok, in truth in advertising there was only such group fired so far.

And there it is. I have done this as well, but a one time, sub .5MOA, 3 or 5 shot 100 yard group does not a sub .5MOA rifle make.

...when I back up to 200yrds my groups open up to 1.5"- 2.5"...

Ah, yes, .5MOA groups at 100 yards don't equate to .5MOA at 200 yards and beyond. At my local range, it was almost 2 years before someone put all 40 shots fired at 200 yards in F Class competition into a 1MOA bullseye, and we have some really fine LR rifles and shooters.

Don

Zak Smith
November 13, 2009, 04:25 PM
There are a lot of radiused/slanted rifling designs, used by a variety of barrel makers. For example, AI rifles have "R" style rifling from Border, I believe.

SpeedAKL
November 13, 2009, 04:57 PM
I wouldn't say its worth spending the money to upgrade over your Savage. To get a significant performance jump, you'll likely have to go the custom route or get a high-end factory rig like the AI or Sako.

DRYHUMOR
November 13, 2009, 07:08 PM
You could have the action squared, and the bolt worked. Little things help.

farscott
November 14, 2009, 11:53 AM
I like mine, but I bought it for a few reasons:

1) I am not a good enough rifle shot to justify the purchase of a custom barrel.

2) I wanted a Remington 700 in .308 Winchester with a 24" stainless barrel and a good synthetic stock.

3) My local dealer had one at a decent price.

R.W.Dale
November 14, 2009, 12:31 PM
Seriously if .5 moa from a stock savage isn't good enough all you need to do is order a SSS recoil lug $40 and send the friendly folks at Shilen about $335

no need to buy a $1500 rifle that may or may not shoot better than what you have now

MGD 45
November 14, 2009, 04:38 PM
If you really want to know what kind if rifle you have......shoot about 10 or 15 different 5-shot groups then average the group size. You'll be surprised to find that your Savage is more like a .75 or 1 MOA rifle. Which should be fine!

I've shot several groups under .300 with my Rem 700 PSS.....but then sometimes it will open up to .750 & a wee bit higher. I've shot probably 20 different 5-shot groups with it.....& I feel comfortable calling it a .75 MOA rifle......

JDGray
November 14, 2009, 05:30 PM
If you really want to know what kind if rifle you have......shoot about 10 or 15 different 5-shot groups then average the group size. You'll be surprised to find that your Savage is more like a .75 or 1 MOA rifle. Which should be fine!

No doubt that if I averaged every group, it would be a 1 moa shooter. Most of the time I'm playing around with different loads, some it dont like at all. The load it likes, will shoot in the 5s everytime:)

Like this one a few days ago. I wouldnt shoot IMR4985 to save my live, but shot my Varget load right at .500"
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_0092.jpg

43gr Varget 168SMKs
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_0093.jpg

Shot this with a friend wiggeling the pick-nick table. Some were 3 shots, cause he started shooting, called the flier when he sat down durring my shot.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_0094.jpg

I feel pretty comfortable saying it will shoot in the 5s, with its favorite load;)

MGD 45
November 14, 2009, 05:48 PM
You definitely got a shooter there. One of my shooting buddies has a Savage Police Tactical .308 & it's a tack-driver too. Have you tried bumping the load up to 44 grains of Varget? We use the Hornady TAP ammo at work & the Hornady 168 grain ammo is loaded to 44 grains of Varget. I got this load data directly from Hornady through one of their Techs. Now when I reload for my practice ammo, I load it to the same specs.....& it shoots great.

JDGray
November 14, 2009, 06:14 PM
I did try 44gr and it was very close to the 43gr load, I may give it another try:)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_0095.jpg

This was shot last December, in the snow, and this was my first attempt of .308 reloading. I've only been shooting rifles since September 08', before that I was heavy into handguns. I find accuracy reloading for rifles, way more satisfying, and outright addicting:D

Thanks for that little tid-bit of insider information;)

MGD 45
November 14, 2009, 07:04 PM
They actually gave me two different loads.....he told me if I was using Varget to load with 44 grains....and if I was using IMR-4895 to load to 43.5 grains.....I guess it depends on which particular load your rifle likes.

I started out reloading pistol rounds for volume because I was doing a lot of pistol shooting with my Dept. buddies on the weekend & needed to be able to pump out the volume of pistol rounds cheaper than I could buy.

Once I started precision rifle shooting.....well, the addiction just took over &.......well......you know what I'm talking about! :D

This was one of the last groups I've shot with it....
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r37/MGD45/redman.jpg

MGD 45
November 14, 2009, 07:06 PM
This was my best 200 yard group with it....well, except for the brain fart shot up high to the left!!! LOL!

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r37/MGD45/200MOA-3.jpg

JDGray
November 14, 2009, 07:53 PM
MGD 45,

Great shooting! I have some 168gr A-Maxes to try, they shoot as good as the SMKs, just haven't loaded any in volume.

Best I could muster at 200yrds is 1.725" 5 shot, and a 1.175" 4 shot. I'm gonna spend alot more time out at the 200yrd line from now on.

MGD 45
November 14, 2009, 11:10 PM
I got really pissed with the 3rd shot that landed up high right. I had made a slight press on the trigger and decided to pause for another breath cycle before shooting. So I was basically breathing again with the trigger half depressed, when my shooting partner fired off his rifle to my right.....BAAMM!!

Of course, I flinched & popped the 3rd shot high right!! Damn!! I laughed at myself but was pissed that I had just blown the 5-shot group. I've loaded both the 168 grain BTHP & the AMAX's. They both shoot the same as far as I can tell.

C-grunt
November 14, 2009, 11:16 PM
Can someone post a picture of one of these milspec rifles. I think I handled one at the store today. It just said Remington 700 on it but it had a heavy long stainless barrel with a precision style stock and adjustable trigger. I was fairly impressed with it for a thousand dollar rifle.

Having shot a M24 I can attest that they are pretty darn accurate and the milspec is supposed to have the same barrel.

dubbleA
November 15, 2009, 12:08 AM
Using 45.0grs of Varget behind 168 SMk shoots decent in my savage.

3 five shot groups at 100yds shot back to back.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Targets/MeasuredSavageGroup.jpg

5 four shot groups fire back to back at 200 yards


http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Targets/200yard10fpMeasuredGroups.jpg

3 five shot groups fired back to back at 600yards

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Targets/oct17600ydSavagegroup2.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Targets/600ydSavagegroup2.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Targets/oct17600ydSavagegroup1.jpg

JDGray
November 15, 2009, 12:52 AM
Having shot a M24 I can attest that they are pretty darn accurate and the milspec is supposed to have the same barrel.

From what I've read, they are the same barrel, but are rejects for the M24. Remington recontures the barrels to a lighter weight, and sells them on the Milspec. This is why they are a limited production rifle.
http://www.tacshooting.com/image_rifle/remington700m24_00l.jpg

Great shooting dubbleA! As always;)

rundm
November 15, 2009, 01:18 AM
Do they shoot? Heck yeah.

http://i33.tinypic.com/2m4d44m.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/2znsdom.jpg

these are just a few of the pics I have. Will it do it all day, I don't know, havn't tried it all day but it does it for long enough. I might add though that I have a sps-t that does the same thing. I just put a brake on it so I will have to check it out again and see if it will still shoot them straight.

johnmcl
November 15, 2009, 10:51 AM
C-Grunt,

Is this what you handled?

109168

C-grunt
November 15, 2009, 03:34 PM
Yep thats it.

I might have already spent my first GI Bill check!!!!!

JDGray
November 15, 2009, 05:02 PM
Well......The guy didn't answer my email on working out the fine details, so I sent him another, and he's traded it.:( Makes my decision easier.

jbech123
November 16, 2009, 09:08 AM
I've read mostly good on these rifles, but Benchrest.com thinks differently of them. Those that have loaded for this rifle, what kind of accuracy are you getting? My Savage 10FP, shoots .500" at 100yrds, off a bipod, with my Varget/ 168SMK combo. I would like to improove on that, and read the Milspec will shoot .250", what are some of your real world groups? My other option would be a custom barrel for the Savage

They probably aren't good enough for the guys at BR.com, since those BR guys are on another plane of accuracy(and cost).
Personally my 5R 308 is a solid .75 moa rifle, and plenty of .5 groups are in the mix as well. In the right hands it may even be consistently .5. I do find that the 5r seems easier to clean, which is one of the selling points. Mine seems to prefer heavier bullets, 175's shoot better than 168's for me. I also started trying 190's and things are looking good. So all in all I think the 5r is a great rifle, however if you're considering buying it to improve performance over your 1/2moa savage and get to .25, I think you will be disappointed. The number of 5r's coming from the factory that are solid .25 rifles is relatively low.

johnmcl
November 16, 2009, 10:03 AM
While we're still on the subject of 5Rs, does anyone have a recommendation for a detachable box magazine?

HS Precision, of which the 5R's have an HSP stock, makes one. With the cost of these things I want to make this purchase just once. :)

Uncle Mike
November 16, 2009, 10:42 AM
The number of 5r's coming from the factory that are solid .25 rifles is relatively low.

The number of ANYTHING come out of a production type environment along these calibers aren't relatively low, it's practically non-existent!

A 1/2" Savage.....how small a group do you want?

The BR guys recognize the...'hype' associated with this type of rifling (5R) when it is billed as 'the' rifling to have.

Zak Smith
November 16, 2009, 12:57 PM
The only DBM system worth anything is the AICS with the Badger or Surgeon bottom metal (for Remington-style actions anyway)

johnmcl
November 16, 2009, 04:08 PM
Zak,

I appreciate the opinion. I thought the HS Precision DBM was breath-takingly expensive until I just looked up a Badger version.

Wow.

JDGray
November 16, 2009, 04:53 PM
Since all I do is target shoot with my 10FP, i'll most likely save up for a Shilen or Pacnor match barrel. I'm just jealous of my Cop Friend, who just had brand new rifles shipped to them at $6600 a pop. Fully suppresed .308s, that feel like .22s going off, and can put 20rds into a dime, at 100yrds!:D

pdd614
November 16, 2009, 07:27 PM
I challenge my friends who claim to have .5 moa rifles. I set up at about 800 yards and set out 5 normal sized clay pigeons against a hill. I ask "so you say you have a solid half moa rifle. Lets see you hit 5 pigeons in a row." I know i haven't been able to do it yet and neither have they, and I sure as hell couldn't expect to string together those kind of groups on a normal basis.
Now I am money at 500 and 600 with my 6.5, so I would say I am about moa even with a full custom rifle. I think people spend too much time on 100 yard ranges, and will really find out a shooter/rifles potential when they stretch its legs a little. If you don't have access to anything other than a hundred yard range, then I suggest you make friends with a rancher. A little bit of help to a rancher will go a long ways to pushing your limits as a shooter.

and when shooting known distance stuff gets old try hanging 2-3 moa sized targets at unknown distances out to your rifles ability. trying to get first or second round hits at these targets will humble a shooter really quick. I know it did for me.

Jamyatunes
November 16, 2009, 08:27 PM
I dunno what the R-5 is, but several years ago I bought a Remington 700-P in .308. I have nothing but good things to say about this rifle. I don't reload, but I shoot match grade commercial rounds out of this rifle. At 100 yards all of the holes touch. After blowing the center out of the target one day, I decided to aim at the crosshairs formed by the zeroing lines, since that would make a more precise target. I went 3 high and 3 left first, then went low and left, then low and right, and finally high and right. Of the 4 rounds I shot, all 4 broke the cross formed by the zeroing lines. I was shooting seated with a harris bipod attached to the rifle. I promise, it's all the gun - not the shooter.

jbech123
November 16, 2009, 08:44 PM
I challenge my friends who claim to have .5 moa rifles. I set up at about 800 yards and set out 5 normal sized clay pigeons against a hill. I ask "so you say you have a solid half moa rifle. Lets see you hit 5 pigeons in a row." I know i haven't been able to do it yet and neither have they, and I sure as hell couldn't expect to string together those kind of groups on a normal basis.
I don't doubt your story, but the reason 99% of us can't hit a clay pigeon at 800 yards has much more to do with us than the rifle.

1858
November 16, 2009, 09:39 PM
The only DBM system worth anything is the AICS with the Badger or Surgeon bottom metal (for Remington-style actions anyway)

I have to agree with this since I have two Remington 700s in AICS stocks with AI magazines (not quite sure why you'd need Badger or Surgeon bottom metal though). I took a 2-day precision rifle course in October and had zero issues shooting 182 rounds. Every other shooter (about 15) had feeding issues during the high-stress drills with Remingtons, Kimbers, Savage etc. I was feeding all rounds from two 10-round mags with no problems during rapid fire drills such as 10 rounds in 50 seconds with the safety on between each shot. I realize that AI rifles are even less prone to problems with a very smooth short-throw bolt but I was very happy with my rifle. In two weeks I'll be attending a 5-day Marine Corps sniper course (if all goes to plan) and will be using the same rifle. I'm looking forward to seeing how it holds up for 1,500 hundred rounds ... that's how many I've been told to bring.

:)

1858
November 16, 2009, 09:47 PM
I challenge my friends who claim to have .5 moa rifles.

My .308 is a .5 MOA rifle at 600 yards in zero wind ... I'm sure of it. The problem is that I shoot matches in real-world conditions with the worst kind of wind ... VARIABLE. With my load, a 2mph difference in wind is good for almost 6" at 600 yards. :what: My best 23-shot group at 600 yards is 1.15 MOA in a 3-10mph variable cross wind (end of last month) so my groups are ALWAYS larger in the horizontal direction than they are in the vertical direction. I'm still learning to read the wind, but with only 40 seconds or less to take each shot, it's tough to time it right.

:)

pdd614
November 16, 2009, 10:22 PM
jb and 1858, that is kinda my point. most rifles out of the box will shoot better than the nut pulling the trigger. Thats exactly why I get off the bench and on my belly at all kinds of ranges. The rifles may be up to task but I guarantee most people aren't. Why not challenge yourself and really try to push the envelope. Get out there and see what you are made of when the wind starts gusting.
I find alot more satisfaction in ringing steel at ukd targets, than in shooting a little bitty group at 100 yards.

1858
November 16, 2009, 10:51 PM
pdd614, I agree 100% with you. The focus of the course I took recently was "train as you fight". When you take the shot, immediately chamber another round from the magazine so that you're prepared to make a quick follow-up shot ... none of this single feed rubbish. Keep the safety on between shots since an AD could give your position away. Keep your heels down since a shiny wet heal is easy to spot. If it rains so what ... use it to gain valuable information about your system and yourself.

:)

pdd614
November 16, 2009, 11:26 PM
you know, I have some friends that take a trip up to montana every year for antelope and mule deer hunting. It never fails that they come back saying how they can never get close enough to the antelope to take a shot, and usually have to settle for an antelope of lesser quality.

I ask them what do they think was the closest shot they would have gotten off before alerting the pack. They normally say between 4-500 yards. They are shooting some sort of brand new super duper short mag, but never bother to actually shoot these rifles outside of the 100 yard range. What good are these magnum rifles if you aren't prepared to use them.

A quality laser range finder with a years worth of ukd shooting out to 700ish yards I'm sure they would be better equipped for these kind of open prairie hunts, but it seems nobody wants to put in the time and effort to practice. Did I mention this type of shooting is very fun and rewarding?

Even hunting scopes have knobs on them for a reason.

Rob96
November 17, 2009, 04:38 AM
most rifles out of the box will shoot better than the nut pulling the trigger.

Very true. This past Sunday I took my 700 ADL Varminter out to sight it in. Shot from a bench with a front rest and a sandbag under the butt. My buddy was observing me and noticed I wasn't controlling my breathing very well and had a lot of movement. Once I settled down I went from from shooting about 1.7 moa at 100yds to shooting .69 moa at 100. And this was with cheap Remington 15gr Core Lokt.

JDGray
November 17, 2009, 05:08 AM
Not everyone has a 1000yrd range at their disposal, some of us have to make due with 200-300yrds or less:(

So punching one hole groups, is all we got:)

Once I find a load that works, all my shooting is prone, bipod.

pdd614
November 17, 2009, 06:21 AM
like I said in my post earlier. Try to make a friends with a farmer or rancher. I have found ranchers and farmers are more than willing to share their land as long as you show respect and are willing to help out. A little grunt work here and there will go a long ways.

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