First rifle recommendations.. AR15? SCAR? HELP !!!


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Jsig29
November 14, 2009, 04:50 AM
Hey all,

I don't know much at all about rifles, as I was always a handgun guy, and am contemplating purchasing a rifle. I am looking for a new rifle, that I can mount an EOTech 552 or better hologram sight on. I have considered the SCAR (as it was said to be "the ****" by the local gun shop, as well as an AR15 (the standard). I have shot 200 rounds in the AR15 rental at my gun shop (by the way, its a 9mm :mad:) and considering I had no idea how to shoot it well (most shots were high, as I didn't know how to aim with that rifle;the guys at my local range are complete @ssh0les, and didn't offer any hands on advice), I had the time of my life. It is certainly something I would want to do more often, with my own rifle. If you guys could shed your thoughts on the following I would truly appreciate it. Thanks.

1. Which rifle do you recommend (I truly have to go by recommendation, as i don't know anyone with rifles) for a new, excellent quality rifle that will last a very long time? My favorite is the FN SCAR.

2. What are your thoughts on an EOTech 552 (or different model, not sure which is best) holographic sight? What other EOTech sights (or non-EOTech) do you recommend?

3. How much on average do 300 rounds cost to shoot with a 5.56 round (what the SCAR uses), as well as the cost for 300 rounds in an AR 15?

4. How much different will a 5.56 round feel/shoot than the weenie 9mm AR15 I shot?

5. Please speak your mind! I need as much information as possible, and all the research I have done doesn't give me any peace of mind, from experienced shooters/owners POV's.


Thank again for all your help, time, and consideration. It truly means the world to me, as there is no one I personally know that can shed some true light on this matter. I fear the salesman in my gun shop recommended and hailed the SCAR as the "future of modern warfare" because it is a$3,000 gun. Also, He had it for $3300 (said he will give it to me for $3100) yet when I called another place and got a quote for $2600, and asked the initial shop if they would price match he VERY rudely said "I'm gonna have to start charging you rent for holding that" Keep in mind, this was the 3rd time I held the gun in the shop. He also said "Go buy it then. You tell me that when he has that gun in stock he'll sell it for $2600". As a business owner, I saw this as a terrible way to "sell" the gun. After that immensely rude comment (well two), I absolutely refuse to purchase another gun from that place. Thanks again!

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scythefwd
November 14, 2009, 05:15 AM
Jsig29 - What will you be using the rifle for?

The AR15 is usually a 5.56, so it will cost the same as the SCAR to shoot. I have no experience with the SCAR, so I can't say anything about it. With the AR, aim about 2 inches low for close (normal room distances) targets. The 5.56 round is a pussy cat when shooting. Don't sweat the recoil as you will barely feel it. Those are some rather expensive first rifles... hope you like whichever you choose.

If you want to compair the two, I am sure someone here will let you try theirs if you provide the ammo. I don't have either nor do I want either. I wouldn't worry about the recoil, as I said before. I have a few thousand rounds through an M16 and you don't feel it.

Jsig29
November 14, 2009, 05:19 AM
It will be used only for range shooting, and target shooting. What do 5.56's usually go for and how many per box? PS, my local range makes u buy the ammo from them, so I'm just trying to compare what you guys buy them for, vs the store and vs online prices. Thanks!

scythefwd
November 14, 2009, 05:26 AM
Sorry, can't help you there. I don't own a 5.56 gun. The AR will allow you to use many different calibers through the use of different upper recievers, where the SCAR is a fixed caliber gun as far as I know. I think I saw some 5.56 at Wally world for $40ish per 100, but it was white box and generally considered crap.

I would look into another range if they force you to buy your ammo there.

Range use.....

1. What are your expectations group wise?

2. What is your budget? Don't say money isn't a problem... If it wasn't a problem you would be buying both.

3. Have you held both to see which fits you better?

4. Why have you narrowed it down to these two rifles ? (I'm just curious on this one, feel free to ignore it)

Solidus-snake
November 14, 2009, 05:26 AM
I would get a AR myself as I think the SCAR is WAY overpriced at the time. While the SCAR is a awesome weapon, an AR would do you just fine. Im assuming your wanting it for home defense?

Like scythfwd said, 5.56 is hardly noticeable recoil, and the commom caliber for both rifles. The ammos kinda on the high side though, especially since both rifles perform best using good US made, brass cased ammo.

The Eotech 552 is a good sight from what I hear, as are any of the Eotech brand sights.
If your wanting the sight for home defense, another good brand to look at is Aimpoint. Both make good holo sights.

Honestly my main reason for recommending the AR is youll be able to get a top brand, well equipped AR for HALF of what a SCAR will cost.

Jsig29
November 14, 2009, 05:32 AM
I just want a good quality rifle that will last me years, that I can use in the range for fun. For home defense, I would most likely go with my pistol (though if I ever had the situation to take down an intruder, God knows I would want to have a rifle in hand). I'd like to keep it under $4,000 with the sight, mods etc. on the rifle itself. The only reason I say $4k is because I know the scar is A LOT of money. I have narrowed it down to those two because they are pretty much the only two I know of, I was hoping to get some more info from you guys on good options. If I could spend less than 2k, I would love that.

scythefwd
November 14, 2009, 05:45 AM
Less than 2k? Buddy.. you just bought a whole lot of rifle if that is your only limit :)

Any 1k rifle will last longer than you will with the proper care, period. You can get into a 1k meter Fclass rifle for 4k with scope. You can have a fully custom rifle for that much :)

What is your prefered action type? Semi-Auto - Bolt
How tiny of a group do you want to put in that paper? 1 inch, .3 inches?
What type of housing do you live in? Even the low powered .223 will penentrate 4-5 walls and keep going. They will go through badguy, the wall behind him (if you are in an apartment or townhouse this is a problem, requires knowledge of what is behind the wall in your own home and it will leave a single family home from an exterior room and enter your neighbors if you live close together), and still have enough power to kill again. With 4k, you could get a lot of rifle, scope (talking high end S&B, Zeiss, or Swvorski here), and a reloading setup for that with money left over.

Home defense is, in my opinion, best left to a shotgun or a handgun. Rifles, unless you live out in the middle of nowhere, tend to have overpenetration issues.

For bolt actions I would look at Tikka, Savage, or Weatherby models. For semi auto's, I wouldn't know where to start. It really depends on what your goals are at the range. How far will you be shooting at the range?

Solidus-snake
November 14, 2009, 05:46 AM
In that case, a AK-47 variant would be an excellent, reliable, fun gun to shoot, and can be had for $400 to $800 depending on the one you get. Also for under 2K you could get a SIG 556, which is another excellent rifle in 5.56 caliber. They ussually run about $1500 area.

But to keep on track with these two options youve chosen, if youve got the dough, a SCAR would be an amazing gun, and youd be the cool kid on the block with it, but for under $2000, you could get a really good AR, with a Eotech 552, nice stock, flip sights, quad rail, and a few other goodies.

My firm recommendation would be an AR my friend.

Scythe, im not saying your wrong, but from my own experiences with 5.56, a wall will stop it pretty quick if its made out of anything besides 1 sheet drywall and plywood. Ive not shot indoors though so maybe the higher velocity achieved at very close distances gives it more oomph.

Jsig29
November 14, 2009, 05:54 AM
I prefer Semi-auto, as it will be used in the range, so that makes life easier. I would like to put as small of a group as possible of course! I live in a single family, separated house with no neighbors attached. The house is constructed of cement foundation exterior walls, with drywall interior walls. Do you guys see the SCAR coming down in price ($400 or more) anytime soon? I'm not going to lie, I want to have a cool gun that I can just look at and get that smile that we all did as kids. Its very hard to decide/get on opinion on anything VS a SCAR, as few have shot them. What are your thoughts on the gun dealer saying " its the best out...its the future of modern warfare.. SOCOM uses it" ? It seemed to me something a car salesman would say when asking how does this car (a chevy) drive, and he replies " JUST LIKE A ROLLS ROYCE!"

Jsig29
November 14, 2009, 05:56 AM
What are some good brands of AR? I know colt is well known, but at my gun shop, they had a LWRC, which the owner claimed is the best of them all... Your thoughts on this???

scythefwd
November 14, 2009, 05:58 AM
SOCOM uses what ever they can get their hands on. Yes, they use the SCAR. They also use AK47's when they are available, and M249's, and M16's, and a variety of others depending on the mission.

The SCAR is a battle rifle. You can probably get better groups out of a purpose built AR, with a target barrel, for half of the cost.

Jsig29
November 14, 2009, 05:59 AM
How do battle rifles last in terms of getting bored at a range?

scythefwd
November 14, 2009, 05:59 AM
I hear good things about DPMS, and RRA. I hear good things about CAV-arms lowers as well.

scythefwd
November 14, 2009, 06:01 AM
I don't get bored at the range. I suspect they all can be fun if you like what you are doing at the range.

ir3e971
November 14, 2009, 06:02 AM
Jsig29,

You should be able to get a good AR carbine for far less than 2k.

I built one from a kit for about 600.00 a couple years ago. Check out Del-Ton, DPMS, and any other number of companies, they sell complete rifles for generally starting around 800.00. These would likely serve your purposes admirably.

3k for an initial entry seems a high investment for just getting your feet wet. You may discover after purchase that you are more interested in other styles of rifles, or types of shooting.

Solidus-snake
November 14, 2009, 06:05 AM
Top brands of AR's would include Colt, Bushmaster, Smith and Wesson, LWRC, Rock River Arms, DPMS and a few others.

I would personally get a Bushmaster or a Smith and Wesson AR. Yes, a SCAR is a gun youd love fondling and admiring, but so is a nice AR. The thing I love so much about AR's is that you can pretty much make it your own, so many things on them are customizeable that yours could be different from anyone elses.

BTW Dont buy everything the gun store owner tells you. Most are jsut trying to make a sale. And no, I dont see SCARs coming down in price anytime soon.

firstater
November 14, 2009, 07:47 AM
For the price of the SCAR you could buy a nice AR-15 AND an FN-FAL. The FAL fires a hard hitting .308 (7.62x51), going for $18 per box of $20. Check out DSArms and look at the STG-58s which are around $1100 or the SA58s for around $1700. Magazines can be found for 10$ if you look around.

AR-15 can be found for less than $1000 and fires a less expensive round .223 (5.56x39). I've seen Remmington UMC for $8 a box.
A flat top AR-15 with Picatinny rails would allow you to customize your rifle in almost countless configurations which should keep you from getting bored .

If you are the type who worries about fending off zombie hordes, the AR-15 is more common and finding replacement parts, spare ammo, magazines would be much easier. :D

dispatch55126
November 14, 2009, 11:03 AM
If you actually have $3500 to spend, I'd get a quality AR such as a Bushmaster or Colt. I'd then take the remaining $2500 and buy magazines and ammo. You can buy 1000 rounds from Aim Surplus for about $400. 5000 rounds of ammo leaves you $500 for mags and other goodies.

If its going to be range use only, I'd stick with 20 round mags.

MrCleanOK
November 14, 2009, 11:10 AM
1. Which rifle do you recommend (I truly have to go by recommendation, as i don't know anyone with rifles) for a new, excellent quality rifle that will last a very long time? My favorite is the FN SCAR.

AR-15 is the standard right now, and for your budget you can get a very high quality rifle worth all the cool-guy and eye-candy points you can handle. I haven't handled one, but I'm sure a SCAR is a hell of a rifle. It's also got a hell of a price tag and no market for parts or excessories (except for stuff compatible with Picatinny rails).

2. What are your thoughts on an EOTech 552 (or different model, not sure which is best) holographic sight? What other EOTech sights (or non-EOTech) do you recommend?
Do you need night-vision device compatibility? The equivalent EOTech offering without NVD compatibility is the 512, it's cheaper. If I were in the market for an EOTech right now, I'd be looking at one of the XPS models that mount the battery perpendicular to the bore and take up less rail space. The main gripe I hear about EOTechs is battery life (1000 hrs on Lithium AAs), and it usually comes from Aimpoint users who get practically infinite battery life. I have used Aimpoints and EOTechs, and I like the square window and 65.1 reticle of the EOTech over the tube and dot of the Aimpoint. To me, that difference is worth the battery life sacrifice.

3. How much on average do 300 rounds cost to shoot with a 5.56 round (what the SCAR uses), as well as the cost for 300 rounds in an AR 15?


Let me Google that for you. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=5.56+ammunition) ;) SCAR and most AR-15's shoot the same round, 5.56 x 45mm or .223 Rem.

4. How much different will a 5.56 round feel/shoot than the weenie 9mm AR15 I shot?

5.56 out of a self-loading rifle is like a baby punching you in the shoulder. Mostly an annoyance that moves your sight picture off target.

5. Please speak your mind! I need as much information as possible, and all the research I have done doesn't give me any peace of mind, from experienced shooters/owners POV's.

Do more research, and think more about what you want and why you want it. You're thinking about making a serious investment based on very little experience and suggestions made by strangers (like me!). A rifle is a tool. When you want to buy a tool, you don't just walk into your local hardware store and tell them "I want the best power tool I can get!". You have a specific task in mind, and you go get something appropriate for that task. Taking your time and thinking it out now will increase the likelihood that you are happy with what you have 6 months after you plunk down all that coin.

It will be used only for range shooting, and target shooting.

Is the range you will shoot at an indoor range? If so, they may not let you shoot centerfire rifle ammunition, so check with them. That's probably why you were shooting a 9mm AR.

What are some good brands of AR?

I'd suggest doing some research on a dedicated AR-15 forum and learning what makes a "good" AR good. m4carbine.net (http://www.m4carbine.net/) is my favorite one. Decide which features are important to you, and which manufacturers offer those features. Many times the difference between top tier AR-15 manufacturers and some of their lower cost competitors isn't in the quality of the part, it's the Quality Control / Quality Assurance programs behind it, as well as some easily corrected assembly practices. For a target/range use rifle, the extra cost of those QA/QC procedures may not be worth it. If you are taking your rifle to a gun fight, they certainly would be.


Good luck!

buckeye8
November 14, 2009, 12:15 PM
I was a new shooter not that long ago. Judging by the questions you are asking, my advice to you is to KEEP READING. I know that money is burning a hole in your pocket, but you seem like the type of guy who can figure out most of what is best for him if he just researches it well enough. Right now you sound like you're halfway through your research and are ready to just quit and drop 4k because you can't wait to shoot. Spend a couple more weeks reading and evaluating, don't let gun shop guys push you into anything, keep renting guns if you can afford it, and let the process play out. I think when you're absolutely sure which one you want, it will be obvious to you. I have never regretted purchasing a gun that I knew everything about before I bought it. I did regret buying a couple that I bought before I knew everything about them.

By the way, if your price cieling is what you say it is, let's just be honest: In a few months you'll have them both anyways! :neener:

bpl
November 14, 2009, 12:33 PM
I'd say get an AR-15 - after you make sure you will have a place to shoot it! As noted above, the fact that they rented you an AR in 9mm is highly suspicious that your local rental range won't let you shoot rifle ammo.

Skip the SCAR. Its overpriced and won't do anything for you the AR won't do. For less money, you could get a Robinson Arms XCR, which many feel is a better rifle anyway.

Top tier AR-15 manufacturers are Colt, LMT, Noveske, and maybe BCM and Sabre Defense (not sure about Sabre though). Next down are most of the others, Bushmaster, Stagarms, Rock River, DPMS, etc. Much of this is opinion, of course. Just avoid Vulcan/Hesse.

CMP
November 15, 2009, 02:37 AM
Just get a high end AR put all the goodies on it and It will be just as good as a scar and with a budget of $4000 you can get a nice shotgun and AK:D I dont see the SCAR dropping in price very soon at the price I would wanna get a ACR anyway, if it ever comes out. Oh and 5.56 aimsurplus has pretty good prices.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/223.html

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 15, 2009, 02:57 AM
Get an AR-15, if you wanna shoot a SCAR save yourself 4 grand and buy Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2

ChileRelleno
November 15, 2009, 03:20 AM
Screw the SCAR... And most of all, screw that gunshop! :mad:

$4K
For that kind of money, you can get several rifles/shotties and have endless range fun.

Some ideas.

1) Buy a Ruger SR-556 and then mount whatever accessories ya desire.
2) A nice Milsurp rifle, Finish M39, German K98... Whatever.
3) A Ruger 10/22, for cheap thrills.
4) A converted Saiga-12 with a MDArms 20rnd drum and several 8-10rnd mags.
5) A converted Saiga 7.62x39 AK.
6) FN FAL, nuff said.
7) Springfield Armory, loaded M1A... Bad@ss!

Balog
November 15, 2009, 03:28 AM
If you just want a fun rifle to kill paper with you frankly don't need a whole lot of input. Buy whatever you like and it'll do admirably. If you really want a SCAR and are just hoping THR can help you rationalize that much $, well that's something else entirely. ;)

Out of those two, my vote would be an AR with several uppers: pistol caliber, rifle caliber, and .22. Of course I'd never buy either of those rifles personally so my thought process may differ from yours.

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