Sky high prices of guns in Pakistan


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mehranbiz
November 14, 2009, 02:43 PM
Pakistan is a heavy populated country and the Gun culture is growing day by day as prestige, sports and security reasons, I am trying to get answer about the sky high prices of all USA and European brands guns, These guns are too expensive in Pakistan, and only few people can buy these guns, Mostly people afford to buy Local made fake/clone guns or Chinese guns, Turkish handguns are also very famous due to medium high prices, But the prices of American and European brands are totally out of range for a common person. A common person can see the pictures of famous guns only on internet or can buy in our dreams.
Maybe the reason is the US and European companies are not interested to sell our products or another reason seems to be the weak marketing of those manufacturers, Maybe they have appointment those dealers that are selling these brands on high premium/profit or maybe due to the monopoly sky high prices are the reason, Due to unbelievable high prices people prefers to buy fake/clone products, The simple example is the retail prices of Glock 17, Berretta, H&K, Sig and other American European brand handguns, Their prices are around US$ 3000 but Chinese hangun is nealy US$ 350 and Turkish brand handguns available around US$ 500 Due to the easy availability at low prices of the Chinese and Turkish stuff the sale of 90% foreign made handguns are Chinese or Turkish.


The retail prices of Riffles are as follows in Pakistan
These guns looks to be precious

BushMaster X 15 U.S.A............... US$ 5000
M4 Carbine................................US$ 7500
M17 BushMaster (Australia).......,,US$ 7500
M4A1 (Full Auto / U.S.A)..US$ 9000
Styer AUG A1 (Austria)...............US$ 10.800
SIG 552 C (Switzerland...............US$ 12.000
HK G36 (Germany).....................US$ 18.000


I need some answers that why these guns are so expensive, is it in favor of US and European gun manufacturers? Or due to price monopoly they are loosing our business? I hope some company or member will explain the reason

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TexasRifleman
November 14, 2009, 02:47 PM
I need some answers that why these guns are so expensive, is it in favor of US and European gun manufacturers?

We'd all be guessing but my guess would be that Pakistan is charging a pretty heavy import duty bringing them into the country. Do your import laws favor some nations over others?

Are they coming straight from the US or passing through intermediate countries first? Those intermediate countries may be adding import duties of their own.

Here in the US we have a law called "ITAR" that likely impacts some of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations

mehranbiz
November 14, 2009, 03:22 PM
The total of all taxes from import to retail are 80% on fire arms in Pakistan,
The world is changing every day, ITAR law on small weapons like riffles and handguns, Its seem tobe joke, Its not nuclear or satellite technology, Its very simple mechanical tehnolog, Anyway All the Americans and Europeans companies are loosing our market and business of more than 6 billion poeple

Blowingsky
November 14, 2009, 03:33 PM
Some years ago in the Atlantic Monthly there was an article that, among other things, covered the fact that you could track global conflicts by the rise and fall in AK-47 prices in specif areas. Prices fell to nothing in that region after a war when peace and hope for improvement prevailed. I'm sure you can do an internet search for knowledgeable discussions on this subject. Pakistan is not in the middle of a peaceful era.

I worked in the largest retail gun store in Southern California for 5 years (B&B Guns). When the L.A. Riots started and the media began stoking the flames, that store was PACKED with citizens, many of them having instantly reversed their stance on gun availablility. We were offered 3 and 4 times the price of an AR-15 (we held the line on prices). Many of these yabos didn't know there was a waiting period. I informed one guy about the waiting period and he said, "But what about during a riot?"

JoeSlomo
November 14, 2009, 03:45 PM
From my experience in that part of the world, the procurement of automatic weapons did not seem to be an issue for those that want them.

The rest of what I have to say is not "high road", and will remain unstated.

Good day to you, sir.

Rembrandt
November 14, 2009, 03:46 PM
Those prices will double and triple in the next few years.....if they keep printing money with no backing.

rcmodel
November 14, 2009, 03:47 PM
I think you answered your own question.

Your $5,000 Bushmaster would cost $1000 minus the 80% total taxes.
Your $3,000 Glock would cost $600.
Thats very close to what they cost here.

rc

mehranbiz
November 14, 2009, 04:15 PM
If the retail price of Glock is $600 its include dealer to dealer profit and retailer profit, VAT and other local taxes, usualy the export price is almost half or less than half of any product as compare to local price, because dealer to dealer and retailer profit and VAT and other local taxes doesnot apply on exports, The all taxes should pay by consumer side or by importing country,
If the factory export price of Glock is $300 add 80% $240 total $540
I think someone is getting heavy premium on import side, Or maybe they appoint only single agent for import in every country and he is getting heavy premium, But the chinese and Tukish manufacturers are openly selling our products to every importer, They welcome to every importer and they are getting good business by our good Strategic management they are selling our mass production to more than 6 billion poeple

armoredman
November 14, 2009, 04:20 PM
$1000 Bushie to $5000 Bushie is 400% tax added. Somewhere along the line someone is getting quite rich. I'd get a local AK and Tokarev.

Birdmang
November 14, 2009, 04:26 PM
You should go to one of the central asian 'stans and get some cheap guns. I suggest Tajikistan.

NukemJim
November 14, 2009, 04:36 PM
Do not know but I would ask some questions involving political/legal pressure on imports or EXPORTS from different countries. Also possibly, with the US liability and or bad PR worries (not needed to be based in fact, just worries).

I do not know enough about international trade in firearms to comment but when economics does not explain a companies actions regarding firearms/ammo then the above mentioned factors are usuallly involved.

A case in point is the Marlin Camp 9 Carbine (also in .45) Marlin not only stopped production on a gun that was selling well but also destroyed the tools and dies used to make the firearms. The only explaination I've ever found was based on liability/bad PR concerns if one of their firearms were to be used in a mass shooting.

I would look at local laws/import duties/limits.

Please let us know what you find.

NukemJim
(PS and yes, most Americans are terrible at math :( Not all just most.)

Titan6
November 14, 2009, 04:45 PM
You guys are nuts. Look again, these are bargain prices :what:

M4 Carbine................................US$ 7500

US price = Unavailable at any price

M4A1 (Full Auto / U.S.A)……………..US$ 9000

US price = Unavailable at any price

Styer AUG A1 (Austria)...............US$ 10.800

US price = Unavailable at any price

SIG 552 C (Switzerland...............US$ 12.000

US price = Unavailable at any price

HK G36 (Germany).....................US$ 18.000

US price = Unavailable at any price

I would gladly pay $12,000 for a SIG 552 C

Question answered.

InkEd
November 14, 2009, 06:12 PM
You can get full auto version of those with the right permits.

How much for a surplus ak? and other communist surplus? Everytime I turn on the US or British news I see guys in sandals walking around with them!

Get an AK and somekind of hand gun in whatever caliber is common over there? I'm guessing 9x18 makarov

Titan6
November 14, 2009, 06:27 PM
You can get full auto version of those with the right permits.

:what:

Really? I am in Kansas, but Show Me the full auto/ select fire HK G36 for sale that I can buy.

Unless you mean this (http://www.mfiap.com/airsoft/g36c.htm) one.

Surplus AKs are $100-200

Zoogster
November 14, 2009, 06:43 PM
Primarily due to ITAR I would imagine.


ITAR is an abused US law originally intended and passed to allow the government to restrict export of classified technology.
Yet it was later applied to small arms which use technology 100 years old everyone is fully aware of.
It is then strengthened through treaties between the US and many other nations, causing those nations to submit to similar restrictions.

The United States is one of the biggest gun control advocates and gun control policy makers in the world, ironically. While also being one of the largest manufacturers of firearms.

Due to politics dating back before the war in Afghanistan and the conflict since, you can be sure ITAR is being used to block shipments of firearms to that region. Meaning American firearms, and most European firearms cannot be legally exported to that part of the world.

It is not just things like an AR, some European firearms are similarly outrageously priced for the same reason in such places.
While Russian and Chinese weapons are still very cheap. Even weapons that are on par or even exceed a 'Western' weapon.

A cheap Glock often goes for similarly outrageous prices, even though an even similar quality weapon will often be much cheaper. For example in this thread a guy from Yemen (similarly targeted by ITAR) mentions a Glock is worth 3,000-4,000. While a quality SIG which was from a non participant nation for many years, is cheap and in a normal price range:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=429945



So it is not because such firearms are considered great in that part of the world, but instead because it is illegal to ship most directly there. So the supply of them is very limited. Those that do make it there either come from crooked sources, or go through an extensive web of exportation to avoid the laws and treaties.

Certainly there is a lucrative business opportunity, say by finding a non NATO maker of AR style rifles and importing them from that nation to that region without breaking any laws. The US however would label a person from the United States who managed to do that a terrorist supporter, with 'links' to Al-Qaeda. Especially since you can bet those weapons would be purchased by those the US is fighting, as well as other citizens.

US foreign policy along with UN treaties, wish to keep centralized governments who adhere to the global plan well armed, but certainly not citizens who may arm themselves against centralized governments. Even tyrannical governments.


A "new world order" may be a popular topic for many crazy conspiracy theorists, but in reality there is certainly a version of united global governments organized in opposition to the serfs they control.
The end of the Cold War shifted the focus from opposing nations to the citizens themselves. Aka"terrorists", which includes any civilian that opposes a government, tyrannical or not.
Why do you think most third world dictatorships were so quick to jump in as allies in the "war on terror". It is like a dream for tyrannical regimes, now they get support from nations like the USA in crushing any who oppose them. Financial and political support. Crush those terrorists!

Fortunately American citizens are not subject to most of the restrictions our own government actively tries to impose and supports throughout the world.
'Inalienable right'... unless on the other side of the border.


But don't speak out too loudly, especially in favor of any foreigners, or you could be put on a "terrorist" watch list. Which may strip you of various rights even if you are law abiding.
Which in light of our recent Army nutcase could be expanding in scope.

Balrog
November 14, 2009, 06:51 PM
You can get full auto version of those with the right permits.

No, you can't.

Any legal machine gun you buy in the US has to have been made prior to 1986. The youngest legal machine gun I can buy is therefore 23 years old.

InkEd
November 14, 2009, 07:43 PM
I stated you CAN own one. :banghead: I didn't go into detail. Sorry, I should have attached a link to Class III requirement and application pages! :rolleyes:

Let's not forget this post is supposedly about prices in Pakistan. A place that has has ongoing armed "issues" off and on for a long time. I question the source of these guns. I think that the majority of those weapons were not sent factory direct to Pakistan. They are possible fakes (as the OP'er said are common) or "slightly used" (read: taken from DEAD servicemen) from countries that issue those weapons(read: USA and our allies!)

If they are brand spanking NIB guns they were probably stolen from UN installations.

Any nation that is known for having conflicts tend to have weapons available, either legally or illegally from supplier with shall we say "gray area" distribution networks.

Pakistan is not a place I would want to live or visit.
It is a place that has harbored terrorists and continues to do it.

Edit for typo and to make more THR acceptable.

Balrog
November 14, 2009, 07:49 PM
I stated you CAN own one. I didn't go into detail. Sorry, I should have attached a link to Class III requirement and application pages!

How can I own an M4? The M4 was introduced after the machine gun ban of 1986, and was never available to the public as far as I know. If I am wrong (it would not be the first time) tell me how can I buy one of these.

TexasRifleman
November 14, 2009, 07:50 PM
How can I own an M4? The M4 was introduced after the machine gun ban of 1986, and was never available to the public as far as I know. If I am wrong (it would not be the first time) tell me how can I buy one of these.

FFLs, Special Occupational Taxes, dealer demo letters... Basically you become a manufacturer and dealer. At that time you can own just about anything you want.

It's expensive, it's a royal pain in the you know, and if you make a misstep you can go to prison.

But, it's doable.

Balrog
November 14, 2009, 07:55 PM
So can a non-licensee own an M4?

TexasRifleman
November 14, 2009, 08:12 PM
So can a non-licensee own an M4?

Nope. You are correct on the after '86 thing for us "normal" law abiding citizens. It's all about money. Pay enough taxes and fees you can have what you want. Downright unConstitutional :)

InkEd
November 14, 2009, 08:35 PM
Agreed. You can't have a new m4 but you can replace worn out parts until you have one.

RP88
November 14, 2009, 08:47 PM
you can own an M4...sort of. Find a registered sear or M16A1 or A2 MG lower made before the ban, change out the stock and add an M4 profiled upper to it, and voila.

Good luck with that first part, though, given the prices.

Titan6
November 14, 2009, 08:48 PM
You still can not personally "own" anything listed. Your business owns it for the purpose of selling to the government.

InkEd
November 14, 2009, 08:57 PM
Also, notice the OP never mentions the legality of said guns. It only lists prices. Countries like that typically have gun laws that are not enforced because the are too busy having fire fights with extremists.

Also the OP never said they are new. If used the source obviously what I stated earlier.

I would rather pay triple the listed prices for my semi auto versions of those guns if it meant they didn't come from dead us soldier. The same goes fir guns that were stolen,list in shipment, redirected from the intended us/ally combatants. Even a slight delay of weapons/ammo in a hostile enviroment can cost lives of our brave warriors. Keepe your potentially tainted/counterfeit weapons and terrorist loving nations.

I do not blame the individual citizens for the actions of their governments. I do blame them for not taking action to change their government as needed.

Boo-hoo I can't buy a new m4 (yes it is wrong!) but you don't live in a war zone either. If the US was as F'ed up a Pakistan you'd be able to get all that stuff Nd more for less money than what we pay for stuff now, because nobody would have time to worry or enforce gun laws when car bombs are blowing up on a weekly basis. Be glad you wil probably never NEED any of your black rifles for defense. There are many people in the world that do need and use them. Are gun laws dumb. Definitely. Should we be allowed to own whatever we want without limitations? Definitely. Will I accept (but fight to change) current restrictions, in order to live in the best country on earth? Definitely. Do people too often take the for granted how good it is in the US? Sure seems like it. Could you move to Pakistan live next door to a jihadist and own whatever gun you want? Wouldn't bother me if you did. I'll stay here with my semi auto rifles, cable tv, 2 ply toilet paper, clean water and other general nice things! Do want you want but if you do it in America be grateful about it.

oneounceload
November 14, 2009, 09:15 PM
A Glock costs Gaston $52.00 US to produce, (or something within a dollar or two of that) - half in the frame and half in the slide - why they were able to sell to NYPD for $75.00 each. SO if they're running $3,000 in Pakistan, it would seem there are some folks along the way, legal or not, that are running things up a bit

EvanWilliams
November 14, 2009, 09:57 PM
Are they full auto?
Wow. It would be cheaper to buy one on the black market for sure.

mljdeckard
November 14, 2009, 10:04 PM
Let me just say, I am HIGHLY skeptical about those prices. Or rather, that anyone would pay these prices in Pakistan when there is no shortage of Russian arms for much more......reasonable prices.

Zoogster
November 14, 2009, 10:56 PM
Are they full auto?
Wow. It would be cheaper to buy one on the black market for sure.

That is nothing.

Here are current 2009 going rates for arms in Somalia, rifles are select fire of course, and keep in mind this is for tourists with money, a local with patience can get much better deals:

One of the cheapest items is an Indian AK-47, at $140 each, but fighters disparage its poor quality compared to the heat-resistant North Korean version ($600) and the light Russian one ($400). At the top of the range of light weapons, the most expensive pistol, Russian-made, goes for $1,000.

Hand-grenades go for $25 each, landmines $100.

There is no shortage of sources for such weapons.

(Reuters) - In Mogadishu, prices of guns and ammunition have fallen in recent months due to plentiful supplies from Eritrea and Uganda and the weapons Ethiopian troops left behind when they withdrew, arms dealers say.

Here is a price list for some popular weapons:

Mortars

120 mm - $700 ($55 per mortar bomb)

82 mm - $300 ($25 per bomb)

60 mm - $200 ($18 per bomb)

Anti-aircraft guns (truck mounted)

23 mm - $20,000 ($2.50 per round)

37 mm version also available, but there is currently no ammunition in stock. Other, smaller variants are available for between $4,000 and $5,000, with their rounds quoted at $1 each.

Anti-tank weapons cost $5,000, while a rocket-propelled grenade launcher is quoted at $200, plus $150 per grenade.

These are sold in various markets that look like a flea market in the USA. The anti-aircaft guns come with the truck they are mounted on. Anti-personnel RPG grenades can go for around $30 each, but the HEAT shaped charged versions cost $150 each. :neener:

Titan6
November 14, 2009, 11:07 PM
Boo-hoo I can't buy a new m4 (yes it is wrong!) but you don't live in a war zone either.

Be that as it may, I don't see the linkage. Why should I have to live in combat zone to buy a full auto?

EvanWilliams
November 14, 2009, 11:14 PM
Maybe Somalia could boost it's economy by becoming a "gun tourism" destination :D

Spend a day at the range with an RPG and some Ack Ack guns!!
Sweet.

InkEd
November 14, 2009, 11:42 PM
Read the entire post. For that matter read the part you quoted! :scrutiny:

I say that it's wrong in the very sentence you selected to read. :fire:

The point is availablity of weapons in warzones is always going to be better than in the suburbs.

Thank you.

Zoogster
November 15, 2009, 03:37 PM
Anti-gun United Nations video from 2007 before UN pressure caused new laws and a crackdown on Yemen arms markets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI_AGXb1-Ec

These are prices in a place with few controls and not in a warzone:

$20 for a full auto AK!

mehranbiz
November 16, 2009, 04:38 PM
In Pakistan the most popular is .30 caliber (7.62x25) China made TT available between US$ 250-300, The local gunsmiths in tribal areas near Afghanistan border are very expert to make copy Russian Tokarev TT available at $100 in retail by authorised dealer on licence, They are also making very good clones of berreta, Smith & Wesson and some other Americans and European brands, Prices near to $ 250-350.
9X18 makarov is not common due to non availablity or expensive ammunation,
Now the poeple are converting to 9mm (9X19), Chinese CF98 available near about $ 375-400 and other Turkish brands are nearly $ 600 in retail for buyer. Chinese, Romainian, Bulgarian and other AK's are available about $ 1500-2000, Mostly poeple like to buy AK's due to low prices as compare to Americans or European brands.
Are these prices are from authorised dealers for legal purchse after getting licence from the ministry of interior.
But in war zones (where law not apply) or tribal areas near Afghanistan border I heard that the price of AK's are $ 200-600 depend on quality and choice. But only the tribal poeple can buy from there and they cannot buy sell or to take these arms to cities,
The prices are not very cheap for a legal buyer on licence, In 180 million population there are so many poeple who like to buy arms for Sports, SD/HD, Hobby or status symbol. These kind of poeple are very conscious about the brand. But its an expensive hobby for common poeple. Common person cannot think to possess an illegal arm. The possession of an illegal arm is very serious crime and punishment upto 12 years.
The above mention Yemen and Somalia examples are only for war zones where law cannot apply for such periods and they don't need to buy from an authorised dealers on legal licence.
The 99% crimes are happened by illegal arms, Beacause criminals don't qualify for an arm licence and they don't need to buy from an authorised dealer. The possess of a legal arm is not a problem and a person who have legal arm on licence cannot think to make a crime

Guns and more
November 16, 2009, 07:44 PM
Same as here.
Supply and demand.

mehranbiz
December 7, 2009, 12:55 PM
The criminals have no problem of money to buy an expensive gun, And they don't need any licence to buy from a gun an authorised dealer, They always buy smuggled weapons from black markets, where they are many times cheaper.
But a person like me with a small budget How can fullfil our hobby ?

NMGonzo
December 7, 2009, 07:05 PM
So ... those what about those Garands?

w_houle
December 7, 2009, 07:30 PM
I was under the impression that the Khyber Pass was intent on making enough firearms to arm everyone in the area so inclined to have a weapon, and that their quality is improving.

KBintheSLC
December 7, 2009, 07:34 PM
Despite those high prices for fancy imported guns, you can still get an AK, an RPG-7, and a couple crates of ammo and rockets for just 3 chickens.

Shung
December 7, 2009, 08:34 PM
I'd love to sell you my 552 for "only" 6000$ !!!

Ohio Gun Guy
December 7, 2009, 09:02 PM
I despise the "But you can get one" argument about automatic firearms....

B.S.!

By the time you get done explaining it, ask yourself......does that sound like an infringement?

Beagle-zebub
December 7, 2009, 09:28 PM
What about a .22? That's what we use, to keep costs down.

And I apologize for some of the other posters' comments above. Rude people just can't resist.

wishin
December 7, 2009, 10:35 PM
I have been to Pakistan a number of times on business when working for a defense contractor. My take on this is that Mehranbiz is either conning us, or is totally clueless, uninformed and naive on the import of goods into Pakistan, the least of which is firearms. Mehranbiz, if you are serious about getting the right answers, the American Embassy's Economic Section in Islamabad can help you more than this forum can.

Alex23
January 16, 2010, 03:12 PM
Those prices do look steep but as others have said none of those weapons is readily available in the US anyway. Not sure why you want the gun but needing a fully auto machine gun for home defense would give me pause about where I lived. Do you just want a machine gun for sport or do you have other uses in mind? :)

Guns and more
January 17, 2010, 01:04 AM
Someone posted a video a while back of Pakistan gun merchants.
AK-47's being assembled in poor towns by 12 yr. old boys. Want to test it before you buy?
Just go up on the roof and fire a magazine over the other roofs.
High cost of quality weapons is probably why everyone who can afford a goat, can afford an AK. (and has both)

MarkDozier
January 17, 2010, 06:09 AM
I know for a fact that you can get in Afganastan full auto AK's for if i recall the price 150-200 bucks. Auto american made weapons are easily found but are a lot more money.
The caveat here. It is in a small area and you bloody well better be well and heavily armed and have contacts inside the area. Otherwise it is Roach motel. You can check in, but you can't check out.

Ed4032
January 17, 2010, 06:46 AM
The laws of supply and demand work. On Gunbroker if the asking price is too high then nobody bids. Are they paying those prices or are they just asking?

BHP FAN
January 17, 2010, 12:24 PM
get a Tokarev and an AK for cheap.

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