Christmas time is coming... need help from SBR experts!!!


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crash32
November 15, 2009, 11:35 AM
Hello guys! Yes, its the time of the year again where I get my annual gun gift from my wife. Last year I got a PTR-91 last christmas and I love it.

After going to Knob Creek for the past two years, I am confident that my favorite gun was the 8" G3. For those of you who have not heard or seen one in person.... its a beast. It generates more fire than a flamethrower. It is LOUDER than a 50 cal.... well almost!!! I could not believe how loud it was for a .308 round. And yes, I like them LOUD AND BRUTAL!!!

So now for christmas I am considering getting a short barreled (8") .308 semi-auto. If I did that I would be selling my PTR-91 and getting a 18" FAL since the my SBR will be based on the G3/PTR platform!

Now, what I need are recommendations as far as a .308 SBR. I was looking into several options such as converting my current PTR or looking into Vector Arms. Does anyone have any experiences or suggestions???

Thanks guys!!

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Maverick223
November 15, 2009, 01:17 PM
Why not SBR the PTR-91 your wife gave you?

:)

rfurtkamp
November 15, 2009, 04:53 PM
The rough cost to convert the PTR isn't going to be any savings over just buying a Vector 51 outright at this point and selling the PTR, and you come into the deal with a factory gun with paddle mag upgrades installed.

I've had a Vector 51 since they came out (put in a pre-order before anyone actually knew what they were) and own a second, both NFA guns.

The good: Both ran 100% out of the box. Vector support was extremely good, even during their troubled period a couple years back, and when a couple blown parts were my fault (tweak a 51 to run with a can sometime :) ) . Paddle mag release was a major, major improvement over the PTR, which should have come with one out of the box.

The bad: plastic furniture wasn't hot, but that was an easy fix.

The 'need to know': Most parts are compatible with the G3/91. Exceptions being the bolt carrier/recoil system. You can't just take a stock A3 stock and throw it on. Suppressing the 51 is an art, not a science, and you will be replacing parts until it runs properly and you blow a few things out. Do not cheap out on a scope mount if you go that route. I blew through a B&T clone, the base ate through the mounting hole. Real B&T has lasted and looks new for 4 years now and thousands of rounds.

Expect lots of 'why do you want that thing' replies to this post.

http://robert.furtkamp.com/guns/nfafamily-web.jpg

I should add that don't necessarily expect the bark you've seen from the full-autos - the Vollmers in particular have a muzzle brake to increase backpressure etc. that's louder than sin. The Vectors have stock G3 flash hiders, and while tooth-rattlingly loud, aren't quite the same in the flamethrower/noise department.

crash32
November 15, 2009, 08:26 PM
Anyone who asks me why I want a .308 SBR just do not know how to have fun!

It is MUCH needed that this is as LOUD as humanly possible so whats with the Vollmers break? It this a special break that I can purcase?

The reason that I want to sell my PTR is because I want a .308 that I can shoot long distance (300+ yards) with iron sights. I do not want both a PTR-91 18" barrel and the same identical rifle with a 8" barrel. I want a different type of rifle.

Anyone else have any good info on .308 SBR?? I would have thought that this would have generated more interest! I guess if I posted on doing a trigger job on my .22 that it would have generated much more interest!! :D

crash32
November 15, 2009, 08:34 PM
I would consider modifying my current PTR-91. How much would I be looking at if I had it professionally done? And also, what are some of the reputable gunsmiths that do such conversions?

The only gun builder I am really familiar with are Tromix which speicalizes in Saiga 12's which I currently have.

rfurtkamp
November 15, 2009, 09:09 PM
You can see the typical Vollmer brake on one listed at Impact: http://www.impactguns.com/store/MGT-A052656.html . It cuts down recoil but mostly serves to up the backpressure. If you want more flash and boom, pretty much any .308 brake would serve your purpose.

Realistically there won't be many comments, you've hit the niche gun of niche gun markets.

As far as cost to convert, you're looking at rebarrelling or cutting the existing barrel, moving the triple frame back, modifying the cocking tube and receiver (the notch to lock the bolt back on a 51 is actually cut into the receiver, not the tube), redoing the recoil system, modifying the bolt carrier, and replacing/modifying the locking piece. When that's all done it's refinish time.

Any HK smith worth a damn has a waitlist that's months and months long, some several years. IGF lists it as $950 (and he's a good guy but has a waitlist) vs $995 for a complete build from a parts kit. Literally, by the time you're done you could have had one built or just purchased one from the getgo, and that type of conversion wouldn't include the paddle mag release that you owe it to yourself to have added to any HK roller-locked gun you own.

Starting from scratch, a Paki kit, new barrel, PTR receiver etc is going to run you in the $800 range plus the smith fees.

This isn't going to be something you can do on the cheap - those days are gone, and I miss them. My first V51 was $725 ;(

crash32
November 15, 2009, 10:22 PM
Okay a couple of questions.

So I am gathering that the cheapest way is to buy the parts (barrel, receiver, etc) and have a gun smith do it. I am guessing the parts would run me $800ish and then I would have to pay the gunsmithing fee. Would that fee be the same as if I had him convert my old one?

I am simply looking for the cheapest route although I know it wont be cheap!

Also, would it be as loud as the ones that I got to shoot at Knob Creek if I put a brake on it? I have looked at several youtube videos and most of them generate ungodly fireballs, but then again some of them.... not even a hint of a flame????? Whats up with that!!??

Thanks

rfurtkamp
November 16, 2009, 12:06 AM
Cheapest at this point is to probably buy an off the shelf Vector, you can find a used
pistol to SBR in the 1200-1400 range if you're patient. Failing that, you're at 'buy parts' starting with the receiver. Form 1 it once you get the reciever to cut down on wait time.

Cutting down the old one will run you $950 vs $995 smithing fees from one reputable smith to show how little cost difference there is, especially once you factor in the cost of the PTR host.

And the fireball is (a) the auto switch (b) muzzle device. Even if you take the flash hider off, there's little flash stock, you'll want to put a recoil-reducing brake on it.

Those amplify the noise, bang, and flash typically. My 7.5" Carbon 15 pistol has almost unpleasant noise and flash with the comp on, with the compensator off, it's a lot milder.

Maverick223
November 16, 2009, 12:06 AM
No idea on the cost of smithing fees (to build or convert the PTR that you have), so I will take rfurtkamp's word for it...he owns a couple and undoubtedly knows more about the subject than I. I would think that a JP tank brake or other high-efficiency muzzle brake would have you flaming in no time :fire: ...and I know for a fact it will be ear-piercingly LOUD, especially with that 8" bbl.

:)

rfurtkamp
November 16, 2009, 12:11 AM
Should add on the brake you'll either need the barrel custom-threaded to something useful (5/8 is the standard .308), as your options in 15mm metric are going to be very limited.

444
November 16, 2009, 01:47 AM
http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/G3kconversion.htm

I have one of these.
It is a 12.5" barrel.

The barrel was threaded for the original flash suppressor. This meant that I could screw on the AAC flash suppressor that serves as the suppressor attachment. http://www.advanced-armament.com/product.aspx?pid=29#pid=117

If you are going to do this, do it right. Don't go for any "pistol", don't go for a long flash suppressor. Get the tax stamp and do it right.

rfurtkamp
November 16, 2009, 05:16 AM
I have one of these.
It is a 12.5" barrel.


Yeah, the G3k option is substantially cheaper if you want to go that route, but original poster was asking about 51 configs, and the smithing cost basically doubles at that point.


Don't go for any "pistol", don't go for a long flash suppressor. Get the tax stamp and do it right.


Advantage to the pistol as the starting point is the process for the conversion is dead simple on a F1. Once the approved F1 is back, you're good to go on the final stuff -find someone to do the markings, and swap the pistol endcap for the stock assembly.

In the meantime, you've still got the gun in hand etc going that route.

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