[Oleg Volk]

Never actually seen a live one, so would like to observe a BATFE employee (preferably a representative example) in order to figure out how much of what I read about that fine agency is true. Any ideas on where to start looking? Serious advice only, please...I try to avoid hog farms, red light districts, government offices and other places of ill repute. Thanks.

[Tamara]

Have you tried the blue pages in your phone book?

I'm assuming you wish to meet an agent or a firearms inspector. (Not the same thing at all...)

[buzz_knox]

Unless you know an agent personally, the only thing going through the agency will get you is a conversation with a PR person.

[MicroBalrog]

Any BATFE employees here?

Add this to the list of "questions you never thought would be asked on THR."

Seriously though, if you where an ATF agent and lurked here, would you admit it on THR?

[Henry Bowman]

I know one in Cincinnati, but he's just a number-crunching accountant type. He used to do lawn work part-time for me. I never talked to him about his job other than to ask, "You still working for F-troop?" His response: "ATF, yeah."

[geekWithA.45]

Oleg's got the right idea: first hand verification of information is always best.

Where I'd start: I'd begin with the folks who would normally have contact with the BATFE (FFLs, Class III dealers, DD makers, Manufacterers, etc), and interview them to see how the interactions have been. Presumably, they'd have contact info on the folks they've interacted with that could be followed up on. Perhaps you could get in touch with Ronnie Barret and have an off record chat over lunch.

In a parallel thread, you can also check into the sources of all the various episodes of abuse that have occured, there's plenty of public record lying around on that. IIRC, the "kitten stomping" episode is pretty well documented, and I'm sure those folks might be willing to talk to Oleg. (I don't know them at all, so I'm just guessing)


In yet another thread, I'd give John Ross a call, and see if I could get a peek at the notes he gathered while writing UC. It seems that the "laundry list" of abuses has some grounding in reality, but I don't know if they're all historical, or not.


Now that I've stopped to read what I've written, I realize that the "investigative reporter" approach may not be what Oleg's looking for, however. It seems more to me that he just wants to have a chat with a non hostile on the inside to get a feel for what the dealio really is.

[Oleg Volk]

Basically, my info comes from UC and from class 2 folks who have reaosns to watch what they say. I' d like to verify those sources of info.

[Balog]

first hand verification of information is always best.

Hmmm, maybe a road trip to Waco and Ruby Ridge?

Seriously tho, I don't know what you might hope to gain by talking to an F-Trooper. The average employee of a large company has very little idea of what's actually going on. Ask any Enron employee. And anyone who is A) a field agent and not just a bean counter & B) willing to talk to a vehement 2A/self defense advocate could hardly be said to be typical. And if I gave them more credit, I'd say there was a danger of them pawning of a good undercover agent who could put a good face on the agency on you to obfuscate the matter. I don't need to talk to an old ex-Waffen SS member to know everything I need to about their organization. I just look at the documented history.

Edit for clarity. I hope.

[Oleg Volk]

I talked to the members of very ill-reputed Minneapolis PD and found them to be decent, lawful people. The BATFE agents have a reputation which I'd like to verify for myself. I am a little apprehensive of doing that, hence request for info and suggestions.

[AJ Dual]

I suspect that face-to-face, the ATF is also mostly comprised of "decent people". I am convinced of it to the point that perhaps Oleg shouldn't bother wasting his time, unless he wants to try some pro-gun proselytizing among the ATF. The evil is more bureaucratic in nature, and also only exposed in moments of "raid-rage" (i.e. burning houses, stomping cats etc...), and during those weird racist drunk-fest "picnics" that got exposed on the news a few years ago. Again, the problems are mostly group-behavior.

Talk to most any of them one-on-one and you'll probably see a reasonably normal person. Even if they are "evil" or corrupt, they're unlikely to display it to your face. But again, that's not a specific indictment of the ATF, just human nature, bureaucracy, and group behaviors.

The real problem with the ATF is not the individuals, any organization can have bad apples, or the laws, as we have our legisators to blame for that. It's the fact that we have bureaucrats, essentially tax agens who are armed and have power of arrest. (as are other federal bureaucrats who shouldn't be) Your city building assessor dosen't have a gun or cuffs, and if you are in violation to that point it becomes a civil matter not a criminal one. The city should sue you, until you comply, not lay siege to your house.

If you're caught with an illegal machinegun? The Treasury should be suing you for the freaking $200, and perhaps a fine + penalty, and then get a judgment to sieze it only if you refuse to pay. If you don't turn over the gun, then it should be handed over to the U.S. Marshals to do the siezure and arrest you.

The ultimate problem with the ATF is that they're considered "police" when they're really just supposed to be federal tax accountants.

[buzz_knox]

Talk to most any of them one-on-one and you'll probably see a reasonably normal person. Even if they are "evil" or corrupt, they're unlikely to display it to your face. But again, that's not a specific indictment of the ATF, just human nature, bureaucracy, and group behaviors.

Not quite. While this may be human nature, ATF has a culture that directly or indirectly advocates such behavior. When agents aren't punished if they go too far against firearms owners, it sends a clear signal that such behavior is either tolerated or tacitly supported. This, in turn, leads to good agents staying away, and bad agents (both morally and ability wise) becoming more prevalent in the ranks. ATF hasn't been known as hiring the dregs of federal law enforcement (even according to other federal agents) for years for nothing.

[gun-fucious]

Miss Tamara must have bent the ear on a few compliance inspectors

heres some surf:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=BATF+nashville&btnG=Google+Search

heres side surf on
"Gene Rightmyer, a retired ATF agent who previously was assigned to field offices in Tennessee"
http://elfie.org/~croaker/goodboys.html

and P.S.

hi, Mr BATFE doods!
Keep up the good work

[Ian]

Oleg, it seems to me that even if you find a good sample to observe/interview, the data you get won't be relevant to the issue of BATF abuse of people. Many, if not most, people who harm other at the behest of an authority figure are perfectly nice people in any other situation. Their abusive tendencies are situational, and only appear when they are "at work," so to speak.

At least, this is the impression I've gotten from what I've read...particularly Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060995068/qid=1068226705/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-2847110-0088903?v=glance&s=books), John Conroy's Ordinary People, Unspeakable Acts: The Dynamics of Torture (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520230396/qid=1068226805/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2847110-0088903?v=glance&s=books), the Stanford prison experiment (http://www.prisonexp.org/), and the Milgram obediance experiments (http://designweb.otago.ac.nz/grant/psyc/OBEDIANCE.HTML).

[mtnbkr]

I've met a few agents in my line of work (not firearms related). The ones I've met have all been quite nice, and rather laid back. They have also been pretty progun. The one I spent the most time with was very non-JBT in nature. Rather jovial fellow and he felt like his job was making a difference. He wasn't chasing down people who made mistakes on their forms, but some truly nasty folks.

My work had nothing to do with his work. :)

Chris

[MeekandMild]

Oleg, if you need help, try contacting via this website http://www.atf.gov/

Not too long ago I needed to ask them a question so I just emailed them. Like most government agancies they are overworked and have to deal with a lot of BS paperwork, so don't expect an immediate reply. But they will give you the straight info.

[Ed Brunner]

I had a surprisingly good contact with a BATF agent today. (He is in Atlanta though). He was so helpful that I was really surprised, because he went way beyond what I had expected. If you are interested, I can furnish contact info and copies of correspondence.

[MPFreeman]

Hendricks County, Indiana.

The sheriff of the county is former F-troop. He campaigned and I emailed him some questions about Waco and the associated non-sense. You wouldn't believe the answer I got back. Scary.

http://www.in-map.net/counties/HENDRICKS/government.htmlsheriff (http://www.in-map.net/counties/HENDRICKS/government.html)