[Titan6]

Hi, my name is Titan6 and I have a problem.

I use slugs for home defense. I have been using now for more than 10 years. So far my family has not suffered, my neighbors are all still alive and I am functioning, in that I can hold down a day job.

I had an epiphany in that I am starting to doubt that I have a problem. I keep seeing posts about the danger of using Slugs for HD. "Don't do it you will kill you your neighbors! Your family! kittens! Baby Seals!!!" But I have never actually heard of this happening. Please help me, show me where anyone, ever has been at least wounded if not killed unintentionally by a shotgun slug shot through walls.

I am starting to think this all a big hoax perpetuated by the antis to keep us from defending ourselves.

Thank you for your support.

[Snarlingiron]

I don't know about it being a hoax. I think a lot of well meaning people that buy shotguns and don't shoot them are overly concerned (afraid) of the weapon precisely because they don't shoot them. Could those terrible things happen? They probably could. But you know what, if the time ever comes that I have to use my shotgun to defend myself or my family, I will do my very best to avoid collateral damage, but the real concern to going to be to effectively use the weapon to accomplish the goal.

I would never want to cause collateral damage, but I'll be damned if I will allow that concern to reduce the effectiveness of my defense by selecting ineffective ammunition.

There are those that use birdshot, bean bags, less leathal, etc. They will have to live with the consequences of their decision, as will I.

[mljdeckard]

Well, this is the flaw in the philosophy of picking ammo based on overpenetration. People get out their slide rules and write Phd theses and come up with these notions that there is one HD/SD ammo that is less likely to overpenetrate. That somehow, there is a round that you can use that you can use while you are shooting at the BG with your kid directly behind them and absolutely KNOW that it will hit the BG badly enough to stop his actions and STILL not have enough energy left to hit their kid behind him.

If it doesn't have enough energy to overpenetrate, why would I possibly trust it to save my life? When I am fighting for my life, I don't want 'limited' to be anywhere in the description of my survival tools. I would very much prefer the word 'overwhelming' to be prevalent.

I assume that EVERY round I fire will overpenetrate.

Now I personally don't go to slugs first, I use 00 or #4 buck, but I cannot mock someone for choosing them, or at least keeping some in the sidesaddle. How can you possibly KNOW that you won't need to shoot THROUGH something significant?

[mete]

In the home ? 00 buck and even reduced recoil 00 buck will work well. The pattern at in house ranges will be tight so do your part and all pellets will hit the mark.

[mljdeckard]

So mete,

you .....KNOW....that you will never need anything else? You KNOW what kind of threat you are facing, when you will get to shoot, and that there is no possible situation where you will EVER need more punch?

[hammerklavier]

You've been using slugs for home defense for 10 years? My suggestion? Move to a more peaceful neighborhood.

Personally, I've never used anything for home defense. Thank God.

[Steve C]

First, heavy buckshot will penetrate 4 gypboard walls without a problem as will a slug. See this rather interesting pentration test of Rifles, Shotguns and Walls (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm) at the Box of Truth along with some of their other tests. Now if your house is masonary construction you have little worry about anthing going through the exterior walls and doing in a neighbor.

Understanding that any effective ammunition that misses the BG will likely penetrate every interior dividing wall in the house then IMO you have less of a "chance" of hitting a family member down range with a slug or singe bullet from rifle or pistol than you do from a load of buck shot shot based on the fact that buckshot spreads multiple projectiles each of which increases the "chances" of hitting another person per round fired.

Truth is that firing any single round unaimed in the general direction of person or persons is very unlikely to hit an individual and the further away they get the likelihood increases geometrically. That doesn't mean it hasn't or can't happen, people do win the lottery even with odds at over 1 in 5 million but it still is unlikely.

[Snakum]

I use slugs for home defense. I have been using now for more than 10 years. So far my family has not suffered, my neighbors are all still alive and I am functioning, in that I can hold down a day job.

I had an epiphany in that I am starting to doubt that I have a problem. I keep seeing posts about the danger of using Slugs for HD. "Don't do it you will kill you your neighbors! Your family! kittens! Baby Seals!!!"


Slugs? My God, man! Think of the poor baby seals! :eek:







(Every time you load one of those uber deadly slugs into your HD gun, God kills a kitten. :( )

[my762buzz]

I don't see how over penetration is inherent over other defensive options.
The FBI minimum penetration standard is 12 inches. 14-15 does not seem excessive to me.

On the brass fetcher site
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page484.htm
Federal F131RS (forster slug) penetrates 11-15 inches in his ballistic gel test
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html
Federal Tactical rifled slug (Load # LE127RS
impacted at 1321 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.4" and was recovered at 1.010" average diameter.

OO Buck penetrated over 16 inches
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gauge2.75inchmag.html


Cartridge : Speer 125 grain Gold Dot hollowpoint (load #23920)
Bullet impacted at 1432 ± 0.500 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0 ± 0.031"

Remington 147gr Golden Saber JHP
Impacted at 993ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.618".

[Sheepdog1968]

Go check out www.theboxotruth.com for some testing done on over penetration. In general, anything that is suitable for home defense will penetrate. You will need to be aware of your backstop. I spent a lot of time research this and haven't found anything suitable for home defense that doesn't penetrate through mutliple layers of sheetrock.

[zhyla]

I think it's good to distinguish between "over penetration" (the idea that a projectile may pass thru your target) and wall penetration (the idea that a projectile may pass thru N walls and kill/maim a loved one or innocent).

I worry little about over penetration. The bad guy is done whether the slug stays in him or passes thru.

I worry a lot about wall penetration. The people I'm defending are behind those walls. Anything with enough momentum to penetrate a human will zip right thru a wall. It's a real problem, not any kind of hoax.

[Philo_Beddoe]

Not all slugs are the same.

Foster lead slugs are hollow and made with soft lead and expand pretty quickly, these are the ones linked in the previous brassfletcher post.

Berenneke slugs are solid and will penetrate alot.

People who use 12 guages for defense against bears use bereneke slugs because the foster slugs will not penetrate enough to be useful against grizzlies.

[my762buzz]

Not all slugs are the same.

Foster lead slugs are hollow and made with soft lead and expand pretty quickly, these are the ones linked in the previous brassfletcher post.

Berenneke slugs are solid and will penetrate alot.

People who use 12 guages for defense against bears use bereneke slugs because the foster slugs will not penetrate enough to be useful against grizzlies.
I agree 100 % about the fosters being hollow and soft.
Slugs are often lumped into one category and its not very accurate.
I have looked at many expanded forster slugs and I have less confidence
that a deformed-flattened hollow soft lead blob passing through a torso and exiting
will go very far once it exits. I have seen hunting pictures where a soft forster slug
did not even have enough energy to exit a 100 pound deer shoulder to shoulder.


Remington Slugger recovered from a deer .....it came to rest just under the skin on the opposite side
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o305/ShotgunT/003.jpg

[Titan6]

I use Foster slugs. A few years back I bought a short barrel slug gun for this purpose and set aside the long barrel shotgun as too untenable for cornering and weapon retention.

[Philo_Beddoe]

The defining characteristic of the Foster slug is the deep hollow in the rear, which places the center of mass very near the tip of the slug, much like a shuttlecock.

Since the Brenneke slug is solid, rather than hollow like the Foster slug, the Brenneke will generally deform less on impact and provide deeper penetration (see terminal ballistics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

[Rshooter]

Who ever said anything about Berneke slugs? I use Remington Sluggers, I am doing HD here, not trying to stop a bear or a car. :banghead:

[SnakeLogan]

I don't see how over penetration is inherent over other defensive options.
The FBI minimum penetration standard is 12 inches. 14-15 does not seem excessive to me.

On the brass fetcher site
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page484.htm
Federal F131RS (forster slug) penetrates 11-15 inches in his ballistic gel test
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html
Federal Tactical rifled slug (Load # LE127RS
impacted at 1321 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.4" and was recovered at 1.010" average diameter.

OO Buck penetrated over 16 inches
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gauge2.75inchmag.html


Cartridge : Speer 125 grain Gold Dot hollowpoint (load #23920)
Bullet impacted at 1432 ± 0.500 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0 ± 0.031"

Remington 147gr Golden Saber JHP
Impacted at 993ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.618".


Excellent post.

[jojo200517]

Who ever said anything about Berneke slugs? I use Remington Sluggers, I am doing HD here, not trying to stop a bear or a car.
What are you going to do if a bear decides to come in or someone tries to run you over in a car? LOL just kidding. http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/fce32f95.gif

I keep all my guns loaded and chambered safety on ready to go, never know which one I will find in the dark. (the exception is bolt action rifle with no safety just leave the bolt back)

I keep the long barrel 12 gauge loaded (in feeding order with 3 inch mag 15 pellet Remington 00 buck in the chamber, 3 more in the tube, followed out by 2 2.75 in 1oz Remington sluggers. 28 in barrel with mod choke. Butt cuff carries 3 more sluggers and 2 more buckshot shells. The shorter barrel version (19.5 in cut no choke) carries the same buckshot chambered, followed by 2 more, and then 3 more sluggers. In addition the shell holder on the folding stock holds 3 Berneke KO slugs and 2 more of the buckshot shells.

Both 12 gauges carry a 120 lumen LED flashlight and the top folder also has a red laser to make aiming easy.

The 16 gauge 1100 holds 5 total rds or #4 express. Not the best choice but it would probably do until I could grab another one.

The AK has 30+1 rds of wolf HP. Plenty of spare mags and 2 drums laying along with it.

The .45 mostly stays in the car or on me, but it carries 1+10 Winchester white box hollow points, a spare mag of them and a spare mag of FMJ stays with it.

I will need to purchase a safe if I ever get kids I suppose. At least until they get old enough to know how to use them properly.