[alwims]

What do you think of Wolf ammo, besides it having, what appears to be, very 'mild steel' cases and very smelly, dirty powder? It sure is accurate out of my .380acp and my .45acp. It just demands the pistol to be cleaned after shooting it.

[Walt Sherrill]

You would have been safer asking questions about a person's MOTHER'S sex life, directly attacked someone's religious beliefs, or just made some broad political comments... This topoic is a continuing source of abuse and discussion.

You might want to try doing a SEARCH here on THR, or on The Firing Line, on the Wolf Ammo topic.

You'll learn far more than you ever wanted to know about Wolf Ammo, snotty attitudes, and obnoxious behavior.

[alwims]

Sorry, I'm new here and didn't see any threads concerning this subject. Guess I need to look farther. Thanks, I think.

[Partisan Ranger]

I have never used Wolf, but I have read enough in this forum about poor quality to never put it in my 2 auto loaders. Why take a change on a kaboom when you can buy WWB at Walmart for ridiculously low prices?

$10.96/100 for 9mm
$12-13/100 for .40 S&W

[cordex]

There are about 3 major positions on this.

1. Wolf will rape your horses and ride off on your women. Do not use it in any gun unless you are suicidal and hate babies.
2. Wolf is fine in commie guns, but not in western guns.
3. Wolf might work in your gun. Give it a shot and find out.

I'm mostly with #3.

[10-Ring]

Stay away from Wolf ammo!

[cordex]

As you can see, 10-Ring is in group #1

[Obiwan]

Some people love it

Some people hate it

Some people have not tried it (including some of those in the first two groups)

[ACP230]

Wolf Match Target .22 ammo, which is made by SK Jagd in Germany, is great ammo.

I don't shoot the centerfire Wolf stuff.

[bountyhunter]

Sorry, I'm new here and didn't see any threads concerning this subject. Guess I need to look farther. Thanks, I think.

You might want to do a search at the 1911 forum as well. They have a ton of info on it.

The upshot: it's great as long as it's somebody else's gun. You really don't want to use it in any gun you like.

[alwims]

Not one person has told me WHY I should not use it.

[Dave R]

How about, when shooting Wolf 9mm in my Hi-Power (clone) empty cases would stick in the chamber. Sometimes so bad I would have to POUND them out with a dowel and significant force.

Shortly thereafter I had to replace my exctractor, which I blame on the pounding it took getting knocked off the stuck case, and then whacked back on by the recoil spring.

OTOH, I shoot a lot of it in my AK...

So you can put me in camp #2.

[Walt Sherrill]

Not one person has told me WHY I should not use it.
That because nobody wanted to REPEAT what has been discussed many times before. That's why several of us suggested you do a SEARCH of this forum and others. IT would probably save you time, but it would also keep this from turning into a big name-calling contest.

I'll try to give an impartial summary.

The following comments apply only to centefire handgun ammo used in non-ex-Soviet Block weapons.

The ammo is cheap, reliable, and reasonably accurate. It smells like crap.

It comes in lacquer-coated STEEL cases. The steel seems to be hard on some extractors. The steel does not expand and contract like brass. The lacquer coating seems to build-up in chambers, requiring extra attention when cleaning. But it may only be an issue in guns that have tight chambers. (Glocks, for example do not have tight chambers.)

In some guns, the lacquer build up isn't noticed. If the lacquer gets hot, it gets sticky and spreads a bit. If allowed to cool with a round in the chamber, it might make the round stick. Might. Might not.

I've seen people have to drive rounds out of the barrel with a wooden dowel. I've seen guns locked up so tightly they had to be left overnight in a shooting range's cleaning machine (a solvent bath).

I've seen others claim is the best "economy" ammo made and snicker when others talk about problems. I don't think they're lying about their personal experiences with the ammo but also don't believe their experience is typical for the wider set of shooters.

EVERY shooter that I personally know who has tried Wolf loved it at first, but after a few months quit using it and never returned to it.

Others have a different experience.

[alwims]

That because nobody wanted to REPEAT what has been discussed many times before. That's why several of us suggested you do a SEARCH of this forum and others. IT would probably save you time, but it would also keep this from turning into a big name-calling contest.

OK, I F**ked up, so sue me. A FAQ section would sure be nice here!

[Shmackey]

The search button IS the FAQ section.

Welcome to the forums.

[Sarge]

I've shot several hundred rounds of it through my Sig 220 in the last year; pretty good ammo on the cheap, in my opinion. Absolutely zero malfs, and I even went to the trouble to bench the gun at 50 yards to see how good it would shoot. I got several groups 4-5" at that distance, and about the best I have been able to do with any factory load is 3.75". It's about all I buy for qualifications anymore, and yes it's dirty but that's why they make Hoppe's #9 and bore brushes.

Welcome aboard, alwims.

[Arub]

In at least a partial and civil answer to your question, I have run a couple of boxes of the Wolf 9mm through a Ruger P95 without a problem. I don't shoot a steady diet of it mainly because of of a concern for what the steel casing might do to the extractor, no personal problems with it.

Some folks at our gun club use considerable quantities of it, without problems, in Glocks, 1911s, Sigs and other auto loaders. A few of them even reload it. No one has reported problems with casings sticking due to the laquer.

The steel casing aversion may not be well founded. It has been reported, reliably or not, to be a mild steel the US sold the Soviets/Russians. Now it's coming back to us in a far less destructive mode than the steel we sold, at bargain prices, to Japan just prior to WWII.

If you're looking for an inexpensive plinking/target ammo that has reloadable brass casings, good accuracy (at least for me) and reliability, try the Sellier and Bellot line. Some folks will balk about the small dot of sealant on the primer. It does seem to melt and leave a small residue on the bolt face, but cleans off with Hoppes #9 and, at least to this point, hasn't caused casings sticking to the bolt (or equivalent) face, falling arches, baldness or loss of sexuality.

Try some of both, evaluate for yourself and then decide.

As far as the "don't ask, run search" response, ignore it. It's sort of a form of pseudo intellectualism some folks like to exhibit - must make them feel important. If answering a question, or just reading one, really bothers them, they shouldn't log on or tune in.

[George Hill]

I wont use it in my guns.

[theCZ]

I just got done shooting 1,000 rounds of wolf through my sks, with a cleaning after every ~400 rounds or so. I had no jams, and cleaning wasn't really a problem. I would shoot it in my 9mm but for $2 more at my local store I can buy winchester white box, and save the brass for reloading whenever I get around to buying the dies, powder, and bullets.

[Wildalaska]

Other than 7.62x39 or 5.45 in a Russkie gun...dont use

WildjunkammoAlaska

[444]

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=430631&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending


"Other than 7.62x39 or 5.45 in a Russkie gun...dont use"
That statement is irrelevant .:D

[WonderNine]

I'm in camp #1

Other than 7.62x39 or 5.45 in a Russkie gun...dont use

No, just plain don't use. :)

[Walt Sherrill]

The steel casing aversion may not be well founded. It has been reported, reliably or not, to be a mild steel the US sold the Soviets/Russians. Now it's coming back to us in a far less destructive mode than the steel we sold, at bargain prices, to Japan just prior to WWII.

I don't know whether the aversion to the steel cases is appropriate or not, but I don't buy the rationale cited above.

Given that there have been millions and millions (perhaps billions) of rounds of steel-cased ammo produced (in what is now the former Soviet Block) since WWII, I find it hard to believe that steel sent to the Soviet Union prior to WWII is just now being put to use and coming back to us.

I can't picture any country, especially one experiencing the economic hard times of the '70s-early '90s seen throughout Eastern Europe, storing badly-needed steel THAT long, while also trying to support friendly militaries through foreign aid and supported revolution. You know, places like Cuba, Vietnam, and various areas in Africa -- not to mention Egypt, Syria, Iran, ec.

[Arub]

Walt: I think you misread the quoted statements, or at least read something into those two that were not intended.

1. 'It is reported .........mild steel' (not judgemental).....'the US sold the
Soviets/Russians' (also not judgemental nor intended to steer folks away
from Wolf).
2. 'Now it's coming back.....like the steel we sold.......to Japan just prior
to WWII'. I can see where one could get the impression that I'm inferring
that this is a bad thing. Economically, it might be for the American
ammunition manufacturers as competition increases. However, there was
no concious thought to comparing the two incidents other than once again
a foreign entity is returning US steel, although there's a great difference
in the way it's coming back.

I have no problem with Wolf. Nor do I have any problems with 'Big Bear', although I no experience with this brand.

My only caveat to steel casings is, at least to me, the effects on the extractor are unknown. Logically the Ruskies wouldn't manufacturer a product for their own service weapons that would diminish their effectiveness/reliability over time. But, I have seen no studies to that effect. Therefore, for the time being, I'll stick with a known - brass cases.

[Walt Sherrill]

You're right -- I misread. Sorry.

But, I wasn't attaching any value judgements to "mild" steel... as "mild" steel might be an appropriate used in a ammo casings. My misinterpretation was that it was OLD steel -- from many years back.

I was unaware that the US had exported any strategic materials to the Soviet Bloc in recent decades, as our national steel production capability is (and has been) much diminished. That said, I find it hard to believe, too, that our [US] steel would be cheaper for the Soviets than the cheap imported [subsidized] steel that has virtually killed our steel industry. I suspect that the Soviets and later the Russians could have gotten that same [foreign] steel more cheaply than they could steel from us. If they could even get our steel.

Re: value judgments. I would argue that if it is "mild steel," its mild for a reason -- that's the kind of steel used -- and not because they had it on hand.

The question, then, is if it is "mild steel" that's being used, is this "mild" steel still harder on extractors than brass? I don't know. I'm pretty sure that guns set up to use steel-cased ammo do well with Wolf ammo. Never heard of failures when its used in Soviet-Block weapons which were designed with the ammo in mind.

The question remains whether US- and Western European-made guns can shoot Wolf over extended periods without harm. Some say yes, and some say no -- and many of those answers are based, at least in part, on experience with the ammo.

While extractors also break when using brass cases, I haven't seen or heard other ammos requiring solvent baths to open actions or wooden dowels to clear chambers. I've personally know of being required in a couple of weapons using Wolf.

We probably ought to do a poll: Problems when using Wolf in a centerfire handgun. Maybe even a list of problems: broken extractor, locked up weapon. Rounds stuck in chamber. Failure to feed (lacquer build up). No problems!

Only those with personal, first-hand experience need respond. No response allowed if you've only seen it, or heard of it -- (my examples above, for example, would NOT let me respond -- I've not used the ammo myself.)

You respond only if you've EXPERIENCED problems, yourself.

That might help.

I'll try to set it up this evening, if nobody beats me to it. (Got a lot of "Honey Dos" today, and will be busy for most of the day.)

[Arub]

Walt:

The poll seems like an excellent idea, especially the part about only those who have experienced first had problems replying. Thanks for volunteering to take on the project. I'm 'computerally challenged' and setting up a poll might be more than I can handle.

Bob

[Jammer Six]

You respond only if you've EXPERIENCED problems, yourself.


The poll seems like an excellent idea, especially the part about only those who have experienced first had problems replying.

The question remains whether US- and Western European-made guns can shoot Wolf over extended periods without harm. Some say yes, and some say no -- and many of those answers are based, at least in part, on experience with the ammo.


Such a poll would be meaningless.

There are two separate issues.

If only people who have had problems with Wolf ammo respond, then you will find that 100% of the people in the poll have had problems with Wolf ammo, and the only question that would answer would be what type of failures among those having failures occurred most often.

There must be a denominator.

You need a column for "No problems using Wolf ammo".

(There is another issue, how many rounds were fired by those with no failures, and how many rounds were fired before a failure occurred, but let's not even go there- lets try to solve the basic flaws in this poll before we go all scientific.)

Then restrict your poll to only those who have actually fired Wolf ammo from a Western Bloc centerfire handgun.

That will solve the first problem, and establish a rate of failure for Wolf ammo. If the rate of failure is extremely high, say, 94% of those using Wolf ammo have trouble, then it's reasonable to conclude that there's a problem with Wolf ammo.

You can't get that information unless you include people who have used Wolf ammo, under the parameters of the poll, successfully. Then you can say that out of so many people who have fired Wolf ammo, this many people had failures. That's considerably different from saying "We ran a poll, and only allowed those who have experienced problems with Wolf ammo to respond. What we found was that all who responded to the poll had had problems with Wolf ammo."

This kind of restriction is only valuable if you're looking for the breakdown of the types of failures that happen with Wolf ammo. It certainly doesn't answer the question of whether Wolf ammo can be used in Western Bloc weapons for extended periods of time without harm, which is the question you state that you are interested in answering.

The second problem is to determine whether or not this rate of failure is significant relative to other ammo. This will be more difficult.

To continue our example, if Wolf has a 94% failure rate in Western Bloc centerfire handguns, that is signifcant.

Unless Winchester White Box has a failure rate of 97%, and PMC has a failure rate of 98%. Then Wolf has a good failure rate, and is fine ammo.

I'm interested in the answers. I just bought 500 rounds of .45 Wolf for my two weapons, and I'd like to know these answers.

[Walt Sherrill]

Some of your comments were appropriate -- but if you saw the survey, you'll see that some of them weren't needed. And I'm not sure the results would be meaningless. Just of questionable value.

was NOT an attempt to be SCIENTIFIC. Just an attempt to structure the responses, a bit. You overlooked even bigger flaws -- quickly pointed out by those who looked at it. The most important one: I set the limit too high!

It doesn't take 500 rounds to know you want or don't want to shoot a particular ammo.

(It only took me two or three boxes of Amercan Ammo in .45 to swear off that stuff forever! I saw enough bullet setback -- caused by the bullet hitting the feed ramp! -- to scare the crap out of me! I bought a couple of packages of 9mm at the same time, and some of it was so badly out of spec it wouldn't even feed in my Browning HP.)

The other problems with the survey that you overlooked are probably as basic as the issues you brought to our attention:

1) The poll isn't ever going to be meaningful in terms of determining anything CONCRETE about Wolf ammo, because the sample here can't be shown to be representative of anything except folks who participate on The High Road, take part in our polls, and have shot Wolf. There may be millions of Wolf shooters who have a totally different set of experiences with their ammo and guns.

2) there aren't any REAL controls: the results can be skewed because the response can be answered untruthfully and, within some limits, more than once. (I consciously set the poll to allow multiple answers, so the totals while equaling 100% don't represent a true picture of the "total.")

All this survey can do is show that the widespread complaints about Wolf MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be justified and are arguably based on more than rumor or conjecture.

(But, alas, we can't even be sure of that.)

[cool45auto]

I use it exclusively in my SKS and my Ruger KP97DC. I don't mind the cleaning and haven't had any problems.

[No Man]

I've shot Wolf in a variety of handguns and rifles, and have yet to experience a problem--not a single misfeed, failure to extract...nothing.

[Jammer Six]

2) there aren't any REAL controls: the results can be skewed because the response can be answered untruthfully and, within some limits, more than once. (I consciously set the poll to allow multiple answers, so the totals while equaling 100% don't represent a true picture of the "total.")


Sorry, Walt.

When I responded, I hadn't seen the poll yet.

Since you seem to be aware of the flaws in your poll, I'll shut up.

As it happens, I replied to your post, and then left for the range. At the range, I fired 200 rounds of Wolf ammo through one of my weapons, with the following results:

15 rounds failed to feed, broken down into 6 "Nose Up" failures, in which the round attempts to enter the chamber, and goes "Nose Up", and wedges with the nose of the round against the top of the chamber, 4 failures to return to battery completely, and five stovepipes.

In addition, I had 7 double feeds, and two failure to ejects.

In addition to that, I had four rounds that failed to fire, and then fired when I re-loaded them, and two more rounds that failed to fire when I reloaded them. Since I'm a coward at heart, I didn't reload them a third time, because I was afraid.

That's 28 malfunctions in 200 rounds, a 14% failure rate.

In your poll, I get to count twice, Failure to Extract, and Failure to Feed. I have voted accordingly.

At last, someone who recognizes my true value, and counts me twice.

The only other point was that I was there testing the weapon, which has been unreliable since the day I bought it, and I thought I had narrowed the problem down to the magazines, but it's clear that that isn't the case.

[forquidder]

I've used wolf ammo on about 100 occasions with no problems. So I voted accordingly in the poll ;)

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Just kidding. :D

[Ky Larry]

I shoot the heck out of Wolff ammo in my AK-47. No problems so far. I don't shot it in anything else.

[alwims]

GEEZ, did I open a can of worms or what? Thanks, guys and gals for all the info and answers. I'm sure curious about the poll, as I really want to see what kind of problems people are having with Wolf ammo so I'll know what to look for and be able to make my own conclusions as to whether or not I will continue to shoot it. As I said in my original post, it sure is accurate out of my .380 and my .45.:what:

[Zundfolge]

alwims, its not going to destroy your gun to run a box or two through it.

I've shot a bit of it and I don't like it, I was shooting it out of a Steyr M40 (pretty tight tolerences on that gun) so I couldn't shoot a lot without a quick cleaning, I also shot a lot of 9x18 out of my Bulgarian Mak (loose tolerences and a commie gun to boot) I had pretty much the same results out of both (more jams with the Steyr but a God awful amount of dirt in both).

Just pick up a couple boxes of each caliber and see how it runs ... at worse you'll hate it ... at best you'll have discovered some cheap ammo you'll like for practice.

At any rate, you're not going to die from Wolf :scrutiny:

[Akurat]

The simplest answer I can give you:

Rifles: yes
Handguns: NO

[Brad Johnson]

Here we go again.... :rolleyes:

Wolf Mythbusting (based on sound, scientific principles and experience, not heresay and something heard from "a friend's cousin's girlfriend's college room mate")

Myth #1 - Wolf ammo will wear out your extractor because of the steel case.

No. It won't. The cases are coated with laquer and it's this laquer, not the case itself, that comes into contact with your gun's innards. The laquer is nice and soft so there is little chance of the steel "wearing out" anything. The only extractor problems I've seen with Wolf were not ammo problems at all, but user problems (like dropping the slide on a chambered round instead of stripping a round from the mag as you're supposed to do).

Myth #2 - Wolf ammo is dirty.

All ammo is dirty. Wolf does leave a lot of residue, but no more so than Bulls Eye, Unique, or W231 (which is so sooty it makes Wolf look like a breath of fresh air). If you clean your guns regularly (and you do, right?) it is no worse than some other commercial ammunition.

Myth #3 - Wolf ammo will gum up your gun because the laquer will come off in the chamber.

Possible, but not likely. Unless you are one of those gun owners who subscribes to the "I don't clean it till it jams" theory of gun care it's unlikely that you will ever have a problem. On several occasions I've fired 500+ rounds of Wolf 9mm through my XD with no functional problems. You could see a tiny bit of laquer residue starting to build up, but a quick swipe with a patch soaked in Hoppes #9 wiped it right off.

Conclusion

Wolf ammo is not some mystery gun-destroyer. It's just another inexpensive brand of ammo that has gotten a bad rap due to a lot of misperception combined with a generous dose of misinformation, supposition, and uninformed hype. While it's true that guns with "tight" chamber dimensions tend to be finicky when it comes to Wolf ammo, most guns will digest it just fine.

Will it work in your gun? Well.. buy a couple of boxes and try it. If you don't have any problems, buy a boatload of it and blast away.

Brad

p.s. Could we please have the word "Wolf" automatically trigger a 1,000,000 volt charge through the user's keyboard each time it's typed in?