30-06 or .308


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HydrostatiK
November 16, 2009, 03:49 PM
Which would be a better cartridge choice for long range shooting. WHich one is going to be accurate at a longer distance?

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R.W.Dale
November 16, 2009, 03:57 PM
how much accuracy do you expect over what kind of ranges?

AMMO

Handloads or factory ammo?

There are many more match grade choices for the 308 for factory loads.


If you handload there isn't anything the 308 can do that 30/06 can't do better


The same Reasoning also applies to rifle selection for custom vs off the shelf rifles

Extremely Pro Gun
November 16, 2009, 03:59 PM
308 is a military round that will be easier to find in a SHTF situation. For example, the Chinese attack us. Or Obama attacks us.

Robert
November 16, 2009, 04:00 PM
Are you looking to compete in long range shooting or just for fun out in the pasture?

R.W.Dale
November 16, 2009, 04:02 PM
308 is a military round that will be easier to find in a SHTF situation. For example, the Chinese attack us. Or Obama attacks us.

let me ask you a question

Has 308/7.62x51mm been easier to find than 30-06 in the past years SHasTF ammo climate?

rcmodel
November 16, 2009, 04:04 PM
What makes you think the military is gonna give you their ammo?

The major social upheavals in this country during the 20th century found the military & police disarming folks, not arming them.

rc

Gregaw
November 16, 2009, 04:12 PM
I agree that if you DON'T handload get the .308 as you will have a much wider range of premium ammunition choices. If you do handload and want somewhat better ballistics you could go with the .30-06, but either one is a more than adequate choice. I personally prefer the .308.

BigO01
November 16, 2009, 04:25 PM
Extremely Pro Gun
308 is a military round that will be easier to find in a SHTF situation. For example, the Chinese attack us. Or Obama attacks us

ROFLMAO !!

Uh Extremely have ya ever heard of the 06 Springfield or the M1 Garand ?

Both were chambered for the 30 06 and American Military main Battle rifles in their respective days so the 30 06 was a military round years before the 308 was around . FYI the 308 was derived from the 06 as a shorter version so a soldier would have more rounds available without sacraficing too much in the power department .

As far as civilian availability I have always found the supply of 30 06 is always larger then the 308 anywhere from the "Mart Stores" to the small gun and tackle shops that I often find in the "Sticks" when going hunting , but that could be a regional thing who knows .

AS to HydrostatiK question both are equally accurate at about any range but the 06 will reach those long distances easier and with more authority when it gets there since it can achieve higher velocities than the 308 . Also the 308 shines best when bullets are kept at no more than 180 grains while the 06 performs well with bullets up to 220 grains for larger game like Bears and Moose .

USSR
November 16, 2009, 04:26 PM
Which would be a better cartridge choice for long range shooting. WHich one is going to be accurate at a longer distance?

Well, the first thing we have to do is define long range. From a competitive point of view, long range target shooting is at 800 yards to 1,000 yards. If you don't reload, then the .308 is really your only choice, since factory target ammo in .30-06 is pretty much nonexistent, and even when it is found (Federal Gold Medal Match), it is down loaded to about the same velocity as .308 match ammo is. However, if you reload, you can take advantage of the .30-06's larger case capacity, and develop match loads that will extend it's range to well beyond the .308's range. Using my standard .30-06 match load of a 190SMK at 2900fps, exterior ballistics software calculates the bullet going transonic at about 1400 yards. This should trump a .308 sending a 155gr Lapua at 2925fps, due to the 190SMK having a higher BC. With all this being said, it is not the cartridge that is accurate - it is the combination of rifle, load, and shooter. Pick yourself a good rifle, develop a good load, and practice.

Don

falldowngoboom
November 16, 2009, 08:44 PM
Speaking of which, I've heard the 308 is inherently a slightly more accurate cartridge. Can anyone explain this to me? Or is it just one of those things? Or is it a bunch of hooey?

Uncle Mike
November 16, 2009, 08:52 PM
Speaking of which, I've heard the 308 is inherently a slightly more accurate cartridge. Can anyone explain this to me? Or is it just one of those things? Or is it a bunch of hooey?

What...? A bunch of...hooey?

You are correct...that IS a bunch of...hooey!

Numerous records set with the old -06 will prove this. If the 308 never was, and the 30-06 was still in favor with the military, it would be nothing but how good the 30-06 is.

People tend to laminate what ever the military is using....

Maverick223
November 16, 2009, 08:52 PM
308 is a military round that will be easier to find in a SHTF situation. For example, the Chinese attack us. Or Obama attacks us.GG, are you serious? The .30-06 won't even work in a SHTF scenario...it won't feed right with all of the ****** on it. :banghead:

If you don't reload, then the .308 is really your only choice, since factory target ammo in .30-06 is pretty much nonexistent, and even when it is found (Federal Gold Medal Match), it is down loaded to about the same velocity as .308 match ammo is. However, if you reload, you can take advantage of the .30-06's larger case capacity, and develop match loads that will extend it's range to well beyond the .308's range.Well said, USSR

Numerous records set with the old -06 will prove this. If the 308 never was, and the 30-06 was still in favor with the military, it would be nothing but how good the 30-06 is...People tend to laminate what ever the military is using....Exactly...just like the almighty 5.56 in intermediate caliber, ooh...ah...mil-spec. [insert smiley with zombies following one another] :D

SSN Vet
November 16, 2009, 09:04 PM
I have recently contemplated this question and after some study, decided on...

7mm-08

which is a .308 win case with the neck sized for .284 pills

but then again.... long range for me is 300 yds.... maybe 500

knights_armorer
November 16, 2009, 09:16 PM
Speaking of which, I've heard the 308 is inherently a slightly more accurate cartridge. Can anyone explain this to me? Or is it just one of those things? Or is it a bunch of hooey?

it has been said, but never really proven definitively.

the thinking behind this is that due to the smaller available space in the 308 case, that a powder charge would burn more evenly and uniformly, compared to the '06 round which of course has more unused space in the case,,,,,,,,however,,,,,,,,,,with the excellent control of burn rates with modern powders (like the hodgdon extreme line) this is really a non-issue.

in my opinion neither holds an edge in inherent accuracy. i do believe that the '06 allows more flexibility due to this very reason, as measurably better performance can be milked out of that larger case.

i prefer the '06, and always will. 103 years old and still the high power cartridge all others are measured by.

sleepyone
November 16, 2009, 09:17 PM
IMHO, balistically, they are very close until you get to distances where most of us aren't going to be very accurate shots given terrain, wind, elevation changes, moving targets, etc. At those distances, say 400+ yards, the 30-06 can deliver more knock down power simply because it can hold more powder in it's much larger case.

If you are recoil sensitive at all, go with the 308. if not, 30-06. Either way, you won't make a mistake.

Redneck with a 40
November 16, 2009, 11:25 PM
I don't ever envision myself doing any hunting and for shooting groups at 300 yards, the .308 is just dandy. Also, most short barrel tactical rifles, like my 20" Remmy 700 SPS, only come in .223 or .308.

If I ever needed to hunt, I'd be good for elk with a 165 gr bullet out to 250 yards.

glockmon
November 17, 2009, 09:51 AM
I've been having similar interests in long range shooting. I myself am looking for a heavy barrel 30-06 but, seems noone is making them anymore. At least that I can find ? Anyone know of any between 600-800 clams. I want to shoot 600 yards, possibly out to 1000. I know my 1903 can do it but I don't like shooting it very much. Thanks

Uncle Mike
November 17, 2009, 10:24 AM
The Savage 'Custom Shop' will turn you a 30-06 heavy barrel and put it on a Model 110-

I believe they still do this. Not completely sure, call them 1-800-370-0708

USSR
November 17, 2009, 10:43 AM
I myself am looking for a heavy barrel 30-06 but, seems noone is making them anymore.

That's exactly what I found, as well. So, about 10 years ago, I sent a Winchester M70 long action out to Jack Krieger with instructions as to how to create my honest-to-God 1,000 yard .30-06. Am more than pleased with the result.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Win06t1.jpg

Arkansas Paul
November 17, 2009, 12:30 PM
Another vote for the 06. By the way he never mentioned anything about a SHTF scenario. He asked which one was better for long range shooting.

HexHead
November 17, 2009, 12:47 PM
What makes you think the military is gonna give you their ammo?

The major social upheavals in this country during the 20th century found the military & police disarming folks, not arming them.

rc
If it gets to the point where civilians are needing the ammo, those that are still in the police or military may likely be the enemy and you take it from them.

R.W.Dale
November 17, 2009, 12:53 PM
If it gets to the point where civilians are needing the ammo, those that are still in the police or military may likely be the enemy and you take it from them.

I was wondering how long the good old "I'll get my bullets form dead soldiers or police I killed" mentality would take to rear it's ugly head.:rolleyes:

and yet you can't talk about writing your senator here but you can talk about murdering servicemen for supplies. All Very very THR

Maverick223
November 17, 2009, 01:09 PM
Lets try to get back on target...as Paul noted the O.P. mentioned nothing about SHTF, and certainly nothing about murdering public servants. Lets get back to the original question, before closing time.

:)

Uncle Mike
November 17, 2009, 01:23 PM
Really...the SHTF stuff is childish at best and uncalled for!

As you probably have discerned by now, both the 308 and the 30-06 will make a fine Long Range round, that said, then there is the long or short action myths...yea, I said 'myths'...
moving on to do you reload, and if so, the 30-06 offers a bit more room for fuel.

Either one is great...hell, get yourself a 30-06 and join the club....you'll get a 308 later, just because of curiosity! loll hehehehe

stork
November 17, 2009, 01:45 PM
Either 06 or 308 will serve you. As previously noted, if you don't reload the 308 has excellent factory loaded match ammo. 30-06 does not.

Both calibers are sufficiently accurate, however all one needs to do is look at the long range Camp Perry records that the 30-06 held for years that fell to the 308 when it was introduced. The 30-06 does have the potential for additional powder capacity which is very important with heavier bullets (over 168 grains).

Out to 900 yards I would prefer the 308 with 168 Sierra or Nostler match bullets. Over 900 I would go with the 30-06 with 190 or 200 gr Sierra Matchkings.

I like and use both calibers. For practical hunting ranges either will serve you well.

FWIW

USSR
November 17, 2009, 02:47 PM
Out to 900 yards I would prefer the 308 with 168 Sierra or Nostler match bullets. Over 900 I would go with the 30-06 with 190 or 200 gr Sierra Matchkings.

I like and use both calibers. For practical hunting ranges either will serve you well.

Agree with this except, I would use either the 175SMK or 178gr Amax bullet in the .308 for shots out to 900 yards, as the boattail angle of the 168SMK is not really designed for LR.

Don

WNTFW
November 17, 2009, 04:15 PM
If you want to shoot competitively the .308 (& .223) allows you to shoot in F-Class T/R. Just one consideration. For me, it the main reason I have a .308 and a .223 would have been just fine also at 600yds. If you plan on shooting competitively check out the local competitions & see what would fit in. It is nice to have the option to compete with whatever rifle you end up with.

Bart B. had posted some info here (in handloading) concerning the shoulder angles on .308 vs .30-06.

glockmon
November 17, 2009, 04:52 PM
I browsed for a while and came across the Savage 110FCP-K in 25-06. This might not be a bad choice ? I like this round as well.

Maverick223
November 17, 2009, 05:27 PM
I would steer clear of the .25-06 for long range target. Factory match loads are non-existent, all factory loads are scarce, and if you reload there are no match grade options (with a high BC) for bullets that I am aware of. I would stick with 5.56mm, 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, 7.62mm, and 8.58mm (for very long range) calibers as they have the best selection.

:)

EvanWilliams
November 17, 2009, 09:26 PM
I have an *^&(*&Load of 30-06. Always easy to find. Shorter case = more accuracy. Yes but how accurate are you and will it make a difference? Myself I shoot 308 just as poorly as 06.

Matrix187
November 17, 2009, 09:34 PM
I would get an '06. In my neck of the woods almost everyone I know of owns a rifle chambered in .30-06- I don't know how it is around you though..

sarduy
November 17, 2009, 09:58 PM
Which would be a better cartridge choice for long range shooting. WHich one is going to be accurate at a longer distance?


this is simple,

flip a coin

glockmon
November 19, 2009, 12:56 PM
Did some more browsing and talking to a buddy, and I'm leaning heavily towards the Savage 10FCP-K in 308 instead of the 110FCP-K 25-06. I have much more components for the 308 than the 25-06 anyways.

content
November 19, 2009, 01:50 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // Go with the Pros FBI/SWAT

I chose the .30-06 because at the time the FBI used the Remington 760 gamemaster pump as a sniper rifle. I mostly hunt whitetail deer within 300 yards and I've never been dissapointed.

The FBI now uses the .308 .

If possible try similar loads in several rifles of each caliber with different stock lenghts and configurations ,shoulder pads,barrel lenghts and scope set ups with targets at several distances.
When you find the set up that works for you it will be obvious.

As stated reloading changes your possibilities of finding "your" perfect set up greatly.
Have fun in the search.

essayons21
November 19, 2009, 10:37 PM
Why does everyone keep saying that there is no good match quality factory 30-06 ammo out there? Black Hills, Federal, HSM, Hornady, and I'm sure some others all make high-quality, extremely accurate match ammo for 30-06. I handload, but my rifle shoots Black Hills Gold 168gr into one hole at 100yards consistently.

Maverick223
November 20, 2009, 01:25 AM
Why does everyone keep saying that there is no good match quality factory 30-06 ammo out there?Because there isn't nearly as large of a selection (as with .308)...but there are a few choices. IMO the answer is handloading for the .30-06.

:)

blackops
November 20, 2009, 03:16 AM
I'll take the 06 everytime no matter what the range is.

glockmon
November 20, 2009, 09:03 AM
I reload as well , but it's hard to find a tactical 30-06 in the 600-800 dollar range out of the box without it being custom made. I'd rather have the 06 over the 308 too, that's why I asked if anyone new of any ? But such is life .

scchokedaddy
November 20, 2009, 12:34 PM
hmmmmmm what about 300 win mag, or some people are hot about the 260 remington i can see the 300 but the 260? well lets see what this starts.

glockmon
November 20, 2009, 12:49 PM
Got a 300 Win. Mag. I'm just itchin for a Tac.

Maverick223
November 20, 2009, 05:44 PM
some people are hot about the 260 remington i can see the 300 but the 260?The .260 (as well as other 6.5mm cartridges) typically exhibit great ballistics and still retain enough energy for hunting and to buck the wind nicely. That is why they are popular.

:)

d2wing
November 20, 2009, 07:32 PM
For out of the box rifles and ammo, the .308 is more widely available in cheaper, accurate varmit and tactical rifles. But the .308 is loaded to higher pressures. As others have said, the 30-06 gived you more options if you handload. The 06 factory loads are more easily exceeded in a modern rifle because it is loaded to a lower pressure in factory loads.

Beagle-zebub
November 20, 2009, 10:14 PM
This thread would benefit greatly from some people posting representative 5-shot groups from their bull-barrel .30-'06s.

Arkel23
November 20, 2009, 11:14 PM
30-06.

wade rigsby
November 21, 2009, 06:59 PM
If it gets to the point where civilians are needing the ammo, those that are still in the police or military may likely be the enemy and you take it from them.

to hex head: currently being active duty serving in the navy and have been for 19 years, I know that the US Government will never turn the military against civilian public. so the above statement is, for use of cleaner words, crap.

now to answer the mans question on 308 and 30/06. each can be made to be very accurate rifles you just need to find the load/rifle that work for you. for long range paper killing, either will do. for long range hunting, more power is better (06). I use them both and love them both. i also use 338 remington ultra mag. this one is good for everything. not to big. as long as you can handle a little recoil. it only has about 64 lbs psi compared to 30 with the 308.



"if your gonna be stupid you gotta to be tough"

.45&TKD
November 21, 2009, 08:46 PM
I know that the US Government will never turn the military against civilian public.

I wish that were true, but weren't Army tanks from a nearby base used at Waco?

wade rigsby
November 21, 2009, 09:32 PM
national guard

Shadow Man
November 21, 2009, 10:58 PM
GG, are you serious? The .30-06 won't even work in a SHTF scenario...it won't feed right with all of the ****** on it.
Maverick, generally I enjoy your posts, but this one has me lost...care to explain?

Also: Define 'long range.' The .308, or 7.62x51mm round has a max range of roughly 1200 yards...if you're a really, really good shot. Personally, I hated taking a 173gr OTM BT round past 800 yards...too unpredictable. But that was just me. On the other hand, the .30'06, or 7.62x63mm round has a generally accepted range of 1800 yards in the right hands, with the same grain weight bullet. Using handloads, the possibilities are literally endless. So, in essence, unless you are shooting between 1200 and 1800 yards...its really up to you, and what your shoulder cares to endure.

As for the talk of murdering public servants to take their ammo and/or supplies; shame on you. Definitely not THR, and definitely not the first idea that pops into my (or most other rational people I know) head. Next time...keep things like that to yourself.

Maverick223
November 22, 2009, 12:25 AM
Maverick, generally I enjoy your posts, but this one has me lost...care to explain?Meant jokingly, as apparently the .30-06 is not good enough for a defensive situation in a scenario that is highly unlikely to occur ("when SHTF"). Honestly, I was sorta peeved that someone would even bring up such an argument with such little merit.

Next time...keep things like that to yourself.Amen, been some poor conduct that does not represent THR (nor the gun owning public in general) well at all in this thread...enough said about that.

:)

Shadow Man
November 22, 2009, 12:30 AM
Ah, gotcha. True enough though, the .30'06 is NOT an acceptable round for SHTF scenarios...lets disregard the fact that it fought in three wars, won two of those wars, and reduced the third to a standoff. Also, the fact that it was the US military's go-to round for 50 years is irrelevant...:rolleyes:

USSR
November 22, 2009, 11:32 AM
Also: Define 'long range.' The .308, or 7.62x51mm round has a max range of roughly 1200 yards...if you're a really, really good shot. Personally, I hated taking a 173gr OTM BT round past 800 yards...too unpredictable. But that was just me. On the other hand, the .30'06, or 7.62x63mm round has a generally accepted range of 1800 yards in the right hands, with the same grain weight bullet. Using handloads, the possibilities are literally endless. So, in essence, unless you are shooting between 1200 and 1800 yards...its really up to you, and what your shoulder cares to endure.

Ah, that 1800 yards must be volley fire. My .30-06 match load that I use for 1,000 yard F Class competition uses a 190gr Sierra MatchKing bullet at 2900 fps, and exterior ballistics programs say it will go transonic at about 1400 yards, so there is no way that you are going to get 1800 yards with the .30-06 with accuracy. While the 173gr M72/M118 bullet is a good LR bullet, it's just not all that accurate compared to commercially made match bullets.

Don

Shadow Man
November 22, 2009, 12:26 PM
True enough, 1800 yards and 1200 yards are the maximum engagement ranges for the 7.62x63mm round and the 7.62x51mm round, respectively. Accuracy at those ranges with those rounds is hit or miss...literally. I failed to clarify that, thank you for the correction.

Maverick223
November 22, 2009, 12:55 PM
Accuracy at those ranges with those rounds is hit or miss...literally.Agreed, 1800yds (just over a mile) is at the far end of .300WM practical range.

:)

falldowngoboom
November 22, 2009, 02:31 PM
My .30-06 match load that I use for 1,000 yard F Class competition uses a 190gr Sierra MatchKing bullet at 2900 fps

Wow. I'm curious, how do you get such speeds from a 190g bullet? Is it a combination of high quality/thicker brass and not reloading them too many times? Are you going over SAAMI pressure? Highest speed for a 190g in my Lyman manual says 2739.

USSR
November 22, 2009, 07:38 PM
Wow. I'm curious, how do you get such speeds from a 190g bullet? Is it a combination of high quality/thicker brass and not reloading them too many times? Are you going over SAAMI pressure? Highest speed for a 190g in my Lyman manual says 2739.

A couple of factors. First, I have a quality barrel (Krieger) that is 26" long. I had Jack Krieger throat the barrel specifically for the 190SMK at a specific cartridge OAL. While I do use good brass (Lapua, Norma, LC Match), the real secret is a specific powder; RL22. By all indications, I am not going over SAAMI pressure spec's. My load only uses 0.2 grains more than a load listed in the 49th Edition Lyman reloading manual, and an interior ballistics program calculates my load at 59,000 psi. Forget about listed velocities in reloading manuals. The one guarantee in reloading is, you will not get that velocity. I have two .30-06 match rifles, and with one particular load using a 178gr Amax bullet, one gets 2950fps and the other 2875fps.

Don

falldowngoboom
November 23, 2009, 05:47 PM
Don, thanks for the explanation. I learn something every time I read posts like yours. :) I suppose I just need new toys to really get the full performance out of the cartridge, though I prob won't shoot bigger than 180g. Will look into giving RL22 a shot.

howlingwolf
November 24, 2009, 01:52 AM
Why am I posting in this thread? I've never shot either.
But, here's two quotes from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield
"The .30-06 Springfield cartridge (pronounced “thirty-aught-six”, "thirty-oh-six") or 7.62 x 63 mm in metric notation, was introduced to the United States Army in 1906 (hence “06”) and standardized, used until the 1960s and early 1970s."
And: "Experience gained in World War I indicated that other nations' machine guns far outclassed American ones in maximum effective range."
If these quotes are out of context, and should not be placed next to each other, I'm sorry. I plead ignorance. Wikipedia also says that .308 is the police sniper caliber of choice.

And here is a quote from this rather impressive sounding "expert's" webpage:
http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/308_vs_30-06.html
"In the '50s , when the .30-06 was the only cartridge allowed in highpower
competition for most matches, the best of 'em would shoot 5- to 6-inch
groups at 600 yards. The target used at 600 yards had a 12-inch V-ring
inside the 20-inch 5-ring. Shooting possible scores at 600 yards was
an every day thing. Then along came the .308 Win. and folks immediately
found out that in equal quality rifles, that new cartridge would shoot
groups half the size as the venerable '06. Scores instantly became much
higher and a few years later the target's scoring ring sizes were made
smaller. It was attributed to the .308's shorter and smaller powder
charge. Perhaps other things helped too, but it all boils down to the
fact that the .308 Win. has better accuracy at all ranges through 1000
yards."

Personally, after I've bought my 7.62x39 and .223, then I will buy my .308. But "thirty ought six" really sounds cool, doesn't it? And if you want to shoot farther than 1000 yards, well, the old thirty ought six maybe the caliber of choice.

HunterBear71
November 24, 2009, 02:44 AM
I don't believe I have ever seen a modern group of shooters come to the consensus that the .30-06 is superior to the .308 .

blackops
November 24, 2009, 04:09 AM
I don't believe I have ever seen a modern group of shooters come to the consensus that the .30-06 is superior to the .308 .

I agree, but as to the reasoning I don't understand myself. I was under the impression ballistically the 30-06 is superior along with knock down capability. I've heard that the military uses the 308 because they can carry more ammo. What is it really?

hub
November 24, 2009, 08:13 AM
I've heard that the military uses the 308 because they can carry more ammo. What is it really?

The 7.62x51 NATO was developed in the 1950's and adopted as a standard for small arms for NATO countries.

Using a shorter case the 7.62x51(.308Winchester) with the use of new propellants, could produce similar velocity's using the same size/weight bullets as the 7.62x63 (.30-06 Springfield). The benefit of this is using less brass and a shorter action allowing for smaller lighter weight firearms. Soon after the U.S. adopted the M14 and M60, Britain and Canada adopted the FN FAL, and Germany adopted the HK G1 briefly, then HK G3.

The .30-06 was used by the U.S. military for over 50 years serving in WW1, WW2, Korea, and to a limited extent in Vietnam.

In the 1960's the 5.56 NATO(.223Rem) was adopted as a intermediate rifle caliber because the recoil of the 7.62x51(.308win) was not controllable in full auto and the lighter weight allowed them to carry more rounds.

The 7.62 NATO is still used in modern machine guns like the m240g and also in longer range platforms like the squad designated marksmen and sniper rifles.

USSR
November 24, 2009, 08:24 AM
And here is a quote from this rather impressive sounding "expert's" webpage:
http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/308_vs_30-06.html
"In the '50s , when the .30-06 was the only cartridge allowed in highpower
competition for most matches, the best of 'em would shoot 5- to 6-inch
groups at 600 yards. The target used at 600 yards had a 12-inch V-ring
inside the 20-inch 5-ring. Shooting possible scores at 600 yards was
an every day thing. Then along came the .308 Win. and folks immediately
found out that in equal quality rifles, that new cartridge would shoot
groups half the size as the venerable '06. Scores instantly became much
higher and a few years later the target's scoring ring sizes were made
smaller. It was attributed to the .308's shorter and smaller powder
charge. Perhaps other things helped too, but it all boils down to the
fact that the .308 Win. has better accuracy at all ranges through 1000
yards."

Okay, let's put this in context. First, let's compare the match ammo. 1964 LC M72 (.30-06) Match ammo used 46.0gr of IMR4895 powder to propel a 173gr bullet at a leisurely 2669fps. Accuracy of this load was a mean radius of 2.2" at 600 yards. For the same year (1964) LC M118 (.308) Match ammo used 41.3gr of IMR4895 powder to propel the 173gr bullet at 2552fps. Accuracy of this load was a mean radius of 1.9" at 600 yards. Since the then new 7.62x51 cartridge was supplanting the old .30-06, it benefited by way of brand new tooling (the tooling for loading the .30-06 was well worn after turning out millions of rounds), and continuing load development which was no longer being done with the .30-06. Another benefit the .308 had was loading density. Since the .30-06 was loaded with IMR4895 so that it could be used in the M1 Garand, there was alot of empty space left in a loaded .30-06 match round. The .308 left much less empty space in a loaded match case. What I have always argued is, why load the .30-06 down to the level where it is comparable to the .308 (but loses due to load density), when you don't intend to shoot it in a Garand? So, what myself and another shooter in Montana have done is, bump up the bullet weight (190SMK) and use a much slower powder (RL22). With a muzzle velocity of 2900fps and the .533 BC of the 190gr Sierra MatchKing, I can go from a 100 yard zero to 1,000 yards using only 30MOA of up. But, the biggest benefit is the reduced wind drift at 1,000 yards. If you miss a wind call with the flatter shooting .30-06, you can land in the 9 ring instead of the 8 ring. So, the point I am trying to make is, a slight advantage goes to the .308 when the two rounds are loaded similarly, but if you go to heavier bullets and 100% load density in the .30-06, you have an entirely different animal.

Don

Maverick223
November 24, 2009, 01:49 PM
Well said USSR, I agree 100%.

:)

lencac
November 24, 2009, 02:24 PM
Although I perfer the 06 to the .308 of which I have both and handload for both I do believe that this is a matter of fact. And that is that over the years at the Camp Perry matches comparing apples to apples the .308 has produced a higher average score than the 30.06. I know, I know, there are more factors that I'm sure you folks will blabber on about but never the less the .308 has produced higher average scores at Camp Perry matches for whatever reason.

USSR
November 24, 2009, 02:45 PM
...over the years at the Camp Perry matches comparing apples to apples the .308 has produced a higher average score than the 30.06.

And I suspect the .223, which has supplanted the .308 at National Matches, has produced a higher average score than the .308. This is the natural progression of such things.

Don

cinteal
November 24, 2009, 05:32 PM
Which would be a better cartridge choice for long range shooting. WHich one is going to be accurate at a longer distance?

In standard loads we're talking a difference in velocity of, what, 200 FPS? Both rounds are loaded in basically the same bullet weights. The faster bullet goes farther and is less affected by opposing forces . . . 30-06.

In reality, the cartridge is fired from a rifle shouldered by a person . . . so flinch factor comes into play and probably evens the odds . . . but that wasn't the question.

Shadow Man
November 24, 2009, 05:59 PM
I believe if you look through the archives, there is another thread quite similar to this, on page 2 or 3.

cinteal
November 24, 2009, 06:10 PM
All the other stuff . . .

There is a lot of designing that goes into the formulation of brass, primer, powder and lead to make a cartridge . . . to perform a certain task as defined by the designer. However, wildcatters and handloaders have shown that cartridges designed to do one thing can be made to do many. Now I can't design a cartridge. Because of that I have great respect for those who can. But the wildcatter I know does it because he can, because he loves it, it's not accuracy based, it just fills a little niche in his heart. But, I can turn a 223 into a subsonic 30 cal.

Having said that . . . as bare nuts & bolts . . . the brass in a cartridge holds the primer, the bullet, and the powder . . . all of which can be manipulated to perform better or worse in a given rifle. I have read the stuff on the intrensic accuracy built into the .308 Win . . . bull. It is powder, powder charge, bullet weight, seating depth, primer, consistency of the brass, consistency of the load, consitency of the rifles through which they are fired and consistency and ability of the shooter.

I have 700 BDLs in 308 & 30-06. Initially, they shot the same groups at the same yardages. I now shoot better with the 308, not because it is more accurate, but because it costs less to shoot and I shoot it more. That is what accuracy comes down to at rifle matches . . . the shooter and what he/she is comfortable with. Why are these folks more accurate with 308s and 223s at Camp Perry? . . . because that's what they shoot. Why do they shoot those calibers as opposed to 30-06 and 7mm-08. It's not because they're better cartridges, it's because, at the shooter's core, we all have respect for and admire the military on some level . . . hey . . . that's what they do . . . for a living . . . shoot . . . and hey, over the last few decades, they've shot 308 and 223.

Beagle-zebub
November 24, 2009, 06:47 PM
With a muzzle velocity of 2900fps and the .533 BC of the 190gr Sierra MatchKing, I can go from a 100 yard zero to 1,000 yards using only 30MOA of up.

That is darned impressive. Also, ouch.

USSR
November 24, 2009, 07:00 PM
...ouch.

Rifle weighs 16.5 pounds. It ain't that bad.;)

Don

joshuarwright
November 24, 2009, 07:00 PM
7.62x54R

enough said.

Beagle-zebub
November 24, 2009, 08:51 PM
USSR, where does that weight come from? And what is the make and model?

atlanticfire
November 24, 2009, 09:08 PM
I like both, depending on the rifle. Garand in 06 mmmmmmmm. I find plinking ammo just as eazy to get for both. And handload for my target rounds.

USSR
November 24, 2009, 09:17 PM
It's a custom built match rifle. As you can see, it's quite hefty.

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Win06t1.jpg

Starts out with a Winchester M70 long action. Had Jack Krieger install a 26" fluted #10 contour barrel (.930" at the muzzle), so the barrel itself weighs nearly 6 pounds. The stock is a McMillan A2 with all the match accessories; don't know what it weighs, but it is heavy, and the stock weight is really necessary to balance the rifle. Add Williams steel one-piece bottom metal, Badger 20MOA picatinny rail and rings, along with a Leupold 6.5-20x50LR M1 scope, and you are talking about a 16+ pound rifle.

Don

rizbunk77
November 24, 2009, 09:23 PM
30-06 is better for long range shooting.

saturno_v
November 24, 2009, 10:01 PM
As far as I know, when the 308 came around (in the 50's) it was designed to take advantage of newer propellants so it could almost match the original 30-06 loads with a much shorter case.

However, eventually, the 30-06 obviously took advantage of the new powders too (at least in the civilian loadings) and it pulled ahead.

The modern 30-06 is not your grandfather 30-06.

If I recall correctly, the original 150 gr. infrantry load for the '06 was loaded at 2700-2750 fps or so, modern commercial loads with the same bullet weight reach 3000 fps and. according to the Hodgodon realoading data manual, you can push a 150 gr. almost to 3100 fps out of a 24" barrel still within SAAMI published pressure limits.

Maverick223
November 24, 2009, 10:07 PM
Don, that barrel is nearly identical to the Krieger in my SRS .300WM (26", custom contour, 0.85in. @ muzzle, 1in11" twist). Krieger makes some great barrels. Entire rifle system clocks in at about 15lbs, recoil is in the neighborhood of a .308/.30-06 with my loads (208 A-max at about 3100fps).

:)

Beagle-zebub
November 25, 2009, 02:09 AM
USSR, I take it those loads aren't from a manual? How do you come by them?

blackops
November 25, 2009, 02:36 AM
A lot of different opinions for two different answers. What I take from it is that they are both really close, but with the right load a 30-06 will come out on top.

Boba Fett
November 25, 2009, 02:55 AM
Here's SniperCentral's take on the two calibers:

30-06
http://www.snipercentral.com/3006.htm

The -06 served as the United States primary sniper round from WWI up until sniper rifles were standardized during the later part of the Vietnam conflict. The -06 offers good ballistics and served as an outstanding sniper round. While its purpose might be limited in the Law Enforcement arena, due to possible over penetration, but with the selection of the right ammo, the -06 would serve as a stellar round in a Law Enforcement situation. There is a shortage of sniper grade weapons in the .30-06, which I have never understood why. The -06 falls in-between the .308 and the .300. and there has always been match grade ammo produced by Federal. I personally think this is the ideal military sniping caliber, it offers better ballistics then the .308, but doesn't punish the shooter like the .300.

Recommendations: I recommend the .30-06 highly for military applications, but I am a little reluctant to recommend it for Law Enforcement use, unless you take the time to research and find a good, rapidly expanding round.

Military Applications

Note: I have chosen the Federal Gold Medal Match .30-06 for military use. It is more then adequate, but I really wish that they would load the 175gr at 2700fps, this would really be a good round, and it would be any easy change, its all done with the .308, and would have no problems reaching 1000 meters.

Federal Gold Medal Match - .30-06 168gr Sierra Match King at 2700fps

Law Enforcement Applications

Note: I chose the 150gr ballistic tip round over the 165gr do to the reduced penetration. The ballistic tip round has rapid expansion and lends itself well to Law Enforcement, but some tests need to be executed to test for exact penetration and to see if excess fragmentation occurs. I highly recommend tests shooting through glass also, as the b-tip has a thin case that will probably strip when passing through glass. A Federal 165 and 180gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw round is available and would probably make a great glass busting round, but with high penetration if the bullet stays intact.

Federal Premium .30-06 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip at 2910fps

308
http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm

The .308 is by far the most popular sniping round, and for good reason. The .308 is not punishing to shoot, has excellent terminal ballistics, behaves predictably in the wind, and is consistent. While there are quite a few rounds that outperform the .308 in ballistics, there are few, if any, that perform as consistently as the .308. And consistency is accuracy. The .30 cal bullet has long been a great performer, and is very popular which leads to more research with the .30 than with other calibers. While the .308 may over penetrate in some cases (especially with M118) the .308 is still used in the majority of the Law Enforcement agencies out there. It is accepted that if you do your job and put the bullet where it counts, you can count on the .308 to do its job and incapacitate the target. The US Army preaches an 800 meter maximum effective range for the .308, the USMC preaches a 1000 yard (915 meter) max effective range. While I have made hits at 1000 meters and beyond with the .308, I would have to agree with the Army and say that 800 meters is the limit for RELIABLE hits. After that the .308 is dropping like a rock and is inconsistent. As an all around sniping round that works great for both Law Enforcement and military sniping, the .308 is hard to beat!

Recommendation: The .308 is acceptable for both military and Law Enforcement use, and is very capable of 800 meter hits on a human size target. If there is a need to reach beyond 800 meters, I recommend something with more oomph than the .308. If you are a Law Enforcement sharpshooter, keep in mind the penetrating power of the .308, especially with full metal jacket rounds (Like the M118).

For a comprehensive review on available match ammo, visit the Match Ammo Comparison page.



Military Applications

Note: I have listed the M118 (The current military sniping round) and also the Federal 175gr Match Ammo, they are both suitable for military sniping. The US Armed forces is currently in a transition to M118LR, which fires a 175gr Sierra Match King bullet, exactly like the Federal Match ammo, but it fires it 20 fps slower at 2580fps. The Federal Match 168gr is also included as the standard.

* M118 = M118 Special Ball - 173gr FMJ-BT (2550fps)
* M118LR = M118LR Special Ball - 175gr HPBT (2580fps)
* F-175gr = Federal Gold Medal Match .308 175gr HPBT (2600fps)
* F-168gr = Federal Gold Medal Match .308 168gr HPBT (2600fps)

Law Enforcement Applications

Note: I have included the Federal Match 168gr in the Law Enforcement section also. The 168gr is very popular with Law Enforcement as well, and with good reason, it has exceptional accuracy. But even though it tends to fragment on impact, the lead core tends to penetrate fairly deep. You need to keep this in mind when taking 'The Shot', insure there is a suitable backstop behind the target. I have also included a couple of good choices for Law Enforcement applications. The ballistic tip rounds are designed to expand rapidly, and lend themselves well to hostage situations. I've included the Federal Premium 165gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, this is a GREAT glass buster. The FBI conducted a very extensive series of tests with different bullets fired through a whole list of different types of glass. The Trophy Bonded Bear Claw came out on top. Its not a match grade load, but the Federal premium loads are very accurate, we have no problems holding sub MOA with our M24.

* F-168gr = Federal Gold Medal Match .308 168gr HPBT (2600fps)
* F-Btip = Federal Premium .308 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip 2820 fps
* F-TBBC = Federal Premium .308 165gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 2700fps
* Win = Winchester Supreme .308 168gr Nosler Ballistic Silver Tip 2670fps

USSR
November 25, 2009, 10:00 AM
USSR, I take it those loads aren't from a manual? How do you come by them?

Myself and a guy from Montana did extensive load development work with the 190SMK back around 8 or 9 years ago. As for myself, I initially tried two powders: H4831SC and RL22. I quickly found that RL22 was the powder for the .30-06 with heavy bullets, and velocities exceeded H4831SC loads by about 125fps. I found myself reaching 2900fps at 60.7gr of RL22 in both Lake City Match and Lapua brass using Fed 210M primers, without any pressure signs. I recently purchased the 49th Edition of Lyman's Reloading manual, and it lists a maximum load of 60.5gr of RL22 with the 190SMK bullet. Quick Load software estimates the pressure of my load at 59,000psi. The beauty of RL22 powder with heavy bullets in the .30-06 is, you can load at 100% density or more, and you simply cannot get enough powder in an '06 case to get in trouble.

Don

jbech123
November 25, 2009, 11:17 AM
Which would be a better cartridge choice for long range shooting. WHich one is going to be accurate at a longer distance?
The fact that you're asking this question means you're new to LR shooting - nothing wrong with that. That said, you probably need to wear out at least one barrel before your shooting abilities would be such that you could really tell the difference between a 308 and an '06 as far as LR accuracy. If you like target shooting, I'd say go with the 308 esp. if you don't plan to reload, but either one would be a great choice. If it's targets only you plan on shooting, you'd likely be better off with a .223, but that is not your question...

falldowngoboom
November 25, 2009, 03:59 PM
Don, I was thinking about giving RL22 a go but then I realized how slow the powder is. If I won't be reloading 190g bullets, would you still recommend testing out the powder for 180 or even 165g bullets?

USSR
November 25, 2009, 07:07 PM
180gr bullets would be OK, but RL22 is really too slow for the 165gr bullets.

Don

blackops
November 25, 2009, 10:31 PM
I didn't realize RL22 had that kind of advantage. You would think you would get some kind of high pressure signs topping your case off even though larger charges (in some cases) lower pressure.

Bart B.
November 26, 2009, 07:42 AM
Hydrostatik asksWhich would be a better cartridge choice for long range shooting. WHich one is going to be accurate at a longer distance? Mike Walker, Remington's "cartridge genius" (and benchrest champion) was put in charge of their T65 project in the 1950's to develop the new military round. He knew the .300 Savage was a more accurate cartridge than the .30-06. Sierra Bullets' rail guns chambered for the .300 Savage shot smaller groups with their 30 caliber bullets than the .30-06 did. The Savage case was modified (check their dimensions and note the difference is small) and the new round became the 7.62 NATO cartridge. Winchester got the first big contract for ammo and decided to commercialize it with the .308 Winchester name. And Sierra Bullets standardized their 30 caliber bullet testing cartridge as the .308 because it was more accurate than the .30-06.

Back in 1963, the .308 was first allowed to be used in NRA high power rifle competition at the Nationals. A good friend of mine used his to win most of the matches and the championship, too. The top competitors in the country quickly learned the .308 Win. was more accurate. .30-06 rifles they used would stay inside 6 inches at 600 yards but the .308 cut that in half. Note that at 100 to 300 yards, the accuracy difference will be hard to discern with shoulder fired rifles.

All the records held by the .30-06 were trounced in a couple of years with .308 Win. chambered rifles made with the same quality parts. Scores were higher and breaking ties on the 50-year old target sizes became a headache. In 1966, the NRA reduced scoring ring sizes by about half to separate the very best scores out of the very good ones. When the USN and USAF started using 7.62 NATO barrels in their Garands for competition, they shot twice as accurate as the old 30 caliber ones built to the same specs for parts fit and barrel specs.

The last time the .30-06 was seriously tried to be competitive was around 1990. They wanted the higher muzzle velocity advantage. Some folks tried it in the then-new rifle classification, "Palma Rifle" which was allowed to be either the .30-06 or .308 Win. It's performance was dismal. The .308 was and still is a more accurate round. Smart competitors knew a cartridge that shot smaller groups was more important than one that bucked the wind about 6% better.

Three main reasons give the .308 the accuracy advantage over the .30-06.......

First, its shorter powder column produces more uniform muzzle velocities. Benchrest cartridges that win are short and fat for the same reason.

Second, the .308's steeper shoulder angle and larger shoulder diameter lets primers ignite more uniformly; it resists shoulder setback better (yes, rimless bottleneck case shoulders get set back a few thousandths from firing pin impact before they fire, and it's easily measured).

Third, the .308's chamber's leade angle is 1.5 degrees, less than the 2.5 degree leade angle of the .30-06. Use a 1.5 degree leade angle for a .30-06 chamber and it will be more accurate as bullets will be less deformed entering the rifling, but its longer powder column will be harder to ignite uniformly.

Bart B.
November 26, 2009, 09:58 AM
USSR sez:So, the point I am trying to make is, a slight advantage goes to the .308 when the two rounds are loaded similarly, but if you go to heavier bullets and 100% load density in the .30-06, you have an entirely different animal.If you'll talk with David Tubb about his .308 Win. Palma rifle shooting 250-gr. Sierra HPMK's from its 1:8 twist barrel, you'll hear him say the accuracy it had beat the pants off any heavy bullet he or his dad and mom ever got from the .30-06 rifles they shot heavy bullets from.

The '06 will shoot any given bullet faster with the same bore and groove dimentions when pressure's equal. But not as accurate.

USSR
November 26, 2009, 11:58 AM
A friend of mine, Mark Humphreville, won the Palma Trophy two years in a row (1985 and 1986) with a .30-06. After winning it the 2nd year, Mid Tompkins smiled while telling him that it would be the last year that a .30-06 would win the Palma Trophy. The rules were changed to disallow any cartridge other than .308 for future Palma competition.

Don

Maverick223
November 26, 2009, 12:01 PM
He had to cheat...everyone knows that .30-06 isn't good enough. It is old, and long, and ugly...completely unsuitable for anything past 100yds. :rolleyes:

AKElroy
November 26, 2009, 12:12 PM
http://www.savagearms.com/14AmerClassic-Left.htm
http://www.savagearms.com/114AmerClassic-Left.htm

I will let the numerous posts make the case for the similarity in balistic performance between the two. For me, they are close enough to allow other considerations sway the decision. With the .308 ruling competitive long range shooting, more performance recipes exist for it.

I am currently salivating over the Savage 14, it is 1.5" shorter than the long action 114. That 1.5" difference makes a considerable difference in handling, and the shorter length throws make for faster manual cycling.

Make mine a .308.

Bart B.
November 26, 2009, 12:17 PM
USSR's comments:A friend of mine, Mark Humphreville, won the Palma Trophy two years in a row (1985 and 1986) with a .30-06. After winning it the 2nd year, Mid Tompkins smiled while telling him that it would be the last year that a .30-06 would win the Palma Trophy. The rules were changed to disallow any cartridge other than .308 for future Palma competition.How well I know that.

I wrote the first rule the NRA High Power Committee used to define the "Palma Rifle" for use in the USA. In so many words it simply stated that any rifle chambered for the .30-06 or .308 could be used. I put the .30-06 in so folks shooting their 30 caliber Garands could compete and the Committee agreed at the time that was a good thing to do.

Mark's rifle had a 1.5 degree leade as I remember when talking to either him or Tompkins that second year when he won. It was probably the most accurate .30-06 rifle ever built. And Mr. Humphreville was also one of the best wind dopers on this planet. But the .308 holds the record.

That NRA rule was soon changed to allow only the .308 Win. to be in concert with the rest of the world shooting in the International Palma Competitions.

USSR
November 26, 2009, 02:22 PM
Mark's rifle had a 1.5 degree leade as I remember when talking to either him or Tompkins that second year when he won. It was probably the most accurate .30-06 rifle ever built.

When I had Jack Krieger build my .30-06 match rifle, I specified a 1.5 degree leade. I also sent him a dummy cartridge with a 190SMK seated to the OAL I wanted to use, and had him throat it to fit that length. Little things like that DO make a difference.

Don

blackops
November 26, 2009, 07:13 PM
I specified a 1.5 degree leade

Forgive me lack of knowledge, but what degree leade?

I also sent him a dummy cartridge with a 190SMK seated to the OAL I wanted to use, and had him throat it to fit that length.

Again forgive me, but you sent him a cartridge with the exact COL of the cartridge you preferred in your hand loads and he custom fit your spacing from the cartridge to the barrel?

USSR
November 26, 2009, 07:56 PM
Quote:
I specified a 1.5 degree leade

Forgive me lack of knowledge, but what degree leade?


The leade is the point in the barrel where the bullet transitions from not engaging the rifling, to fully engaging the rifling. This is done in a gradual manner, and the angle of the slope from no rifling to just a little rifling to the full rifling of the barrel is measured in degrees. A small number degree for the leade indicates a long, more gradual transition, while higher number degree indicates a shorter, more rapid transition.

Quote:
I also sent him a dummy cartridge with a 190SMK seated to the OAL I wanted to use, and had him throat it to fit that length.

Again forgive me, but you sent him a cartridge with the exact COL of the cartridge you preferred in your hand loads and he custom fit your spacing from the cartridge to the barrel?

Essentially, yes. There was no primer or powder in the dummy cartridge, but the OAL indicated to him the distance from the chamber that I wanted the leade.

Don

Bart B.
November 26, 2009, 11:21 PM
Blackops, some folks have been using chambering reamers with their leade ground to have a 10/1000ths crush fit on a given lot of ammo. This is somewhat common when a country hosting upcoming Long Range World Championships & Palma Matches sends all participating country several hundred rounds of the ammo that'll be used. Tool makers measure the bullet's ogive dimensions then cut/grind chambering reamers to fit that ammo.

blackops
November 27, 2009, 12:59 AM
USSR. I can't thank you enough. I've been hunting + shooting for a while, but over the past year it has truly become a passion and I'm slowly learning the technicalities of the ordeal. I understand exactly what you are saying, but at the same time I wouldn’t know what kind of leade I would prefer in my own rifle by any means. How do you figure out what leade will be most accurate for your application? Essentially I would assume that would have to do with the cartridge of choice, action, and barrel I imagine. Sorry for bugging you, but eventually I’m going to put together my own custom rifle and the major components of your 30-06 are dang near exactly what I want. By the way is that m70 CPF? I actually prefer the CRF.

Bart, thanks for the help as well. What are chambering reamers?

Maverick223
November 27, 2009, 01:50 AM
I’m going to put together my own custom rifle and the major components of your 30-06 are dang near exactly what I want. By the way is that m70 CPF? I actually prefer the CRF.From the looks of it, you could do a whole lot worse. I may be wrong but it appears to be PF, which IMO is a better action for target use (can load a single without using the magazine, and is a slightly stronger action). Whatever action you choose, I would highly recommend starting with a Krieger barrel, and very good optics/mounts. All else is secondary IMHO. Good luck on the build.

What are chambering reamers?Reamers are used for cutting the chamber (or more commonly enlarging the unfinished chamber), they akin to a precision drill bit (but looks like an end mill).

:)

blackops
November 27, 2009, 07:48 PM
Whatever action you choose, I would highly recommend starting with a Krieger barrel, and very good optics/mounts.

Thanks, Krieger is exactly what I will be looking for. Along with Nightforce and Badger mounts. IMO for hunting the CRF is more reliable for hunting, but I wasn't aware the CPF was a more stable action. I also really like the Surgeon 1086 long action repeater. Definitely a little more money, but I've done a lot of research and have heard Surgeon actions are truly masterpieces. As for the cartridge I'm really undecided on a 30-06 and a 7 mag. I really would like to build it on a 270, but I'm saving that discussion for my new thread.

Maverick223
November 27, 2009, 08:38 PM
Thanks, Krieger is exactly what I will be looking for. Along with Nightforce and Badger mounts. IMO for hunting the CRF is more reliable for hunting, but I wasn't aware the CPF was a more stable action. I also really like the Surgeon 1086 long action repeater. Definitely a little more money, but I've done a lot of research and have heard Surgeon actions are truly masterpieces.Sounds good, I agree that CRF is better for hunting, but if long range is the goal you may e better off with PF (there is no "C" because it isn't really controlled). For me it would depend upon what I was hunting (if dangerous, CRF all the way), how far is long range (if less than 500yds, which is really long for hunting, CRF is more than stiff enough), and will the rifle also me used for target work (if longer than 600yds or so, I would choose PF to load individual rounds and for the greater stiffness). That said, in all honesty, you probably won't be able to tell the difference with a good action of either type...I'll quit babbling now.

:)

USSR
November 27, 2009, 09:14 PM
By the way is that m70 CPF? I actually prefer the CRF.

My .30-06 is built on a M70 pushfeed action. I had a second rifle built in 6.5x55 that uses the M70 CRF action. Both a excellent shooters. In the last few years in which Winchesters were made in New Haven, Conn, they made an action called a controlled round pushfeed (CRPF). Haven't heard much good about it, and I would avoid it.

Don

blackops
November 27, 2009, 09:23 PM
mav, babble all you want you and USSR are showing me the ropes here and I'm learning things I wouldn't learn in other places. This rifle though wouldn't be for hunting. I imagine it will be too heavy if I'm making an accurate LR build. My pre 64 is perfect for that. By long range I’m thinking of out to a 1k. Not that I am even capable of being accurate at that range because I don't practice it or currently have a rifle capable of performing at that range. I hunt in high elevation in big mountain ranges so longer shots are sometimes part of the game, but I wouldn't take a shot over 500 and the conditions/situation have to be perfect at that. It seems though it depends on who you talk to as far as CRF or PF. Some guys like the CFR no matter for hunting or target, but I understand what you are saying. Over 600 PF.

Maverick223
November 27, 2009, 10:17 PM
In the last few years in which Winchesters were made in New Haven, Conn, they made an action called a controlled round pushfeed (CRPF). Haven't heard much good about it, and I would avoid it.Forgot about those, and I have never owned one, but I don't believe it was nearly as bad as it was made out to be (like all of the post-'64s). It just went against the grain of the traditional Winchester connoisseur (you have to count me as one, I am very glad to see the come-back of the CRF M-70s), however the finish work was poor from the later M-70s.

It seems though it depends on who you talk to as far as CRF or PF.Absolutely, there are teetotalers on both sides of the fence, where I sit, a leg on each side (and the barbed wire is starting to chafe :uhoh:).

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