"Hold it. I've got a gun." "So what?"


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Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 12:21 PM
A couple of nights ago just as we were going to be turning in, I heard a noise outside and since we live in the middle of nowhere with our nearest neighbor about a football field away, the noise seemed out of place. Since one of our cars is sitting outside because we haven't had a chance to go through all of the junk in the garage and empty it out, my immediate thought was that somebody might be trying to steel the car. So, arming myself with my 4013TSW...
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f103.jpg
... I tucked it in my belt under my shirt, I turned on the spotlights and went outside. It turned out to be my neighbor from across the field filling up some buckets with water. He's been having problems with his well and had asked earlier if he could have some water. I told him that as long as he doesn't hook up a hose and starts watering his lawn to feel free anytime. We talked briefly and then he went his way and I went mine.

But then I got to thinking :rolleyes: Posted by TallPine (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48598#post588871): ... it isn't legal to point it at somebody that is not an immediate threat to you, and pull the trigger ... Suppose, just suppose, it WAS someone trying to steal my car and I pulled my gun on him and ordered him to stop and he refused and continued doing what he was doing. With very few exceptions, it is unlawful to use deadly force to defend your property. As a matter of fact, most places require YOU to retreat (unless you're in your home) and if retreat is not possible, then and only then can deadly force be legally used.

So what would you do? Suppose you caught someone stealing something, trying to break in, etc.; and ignored you and continued with his illegal activity?

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Dorrin79
November 7, 2003, 12:27 PM
I would hope that 99% of prospective criminals would either a) flee in terror or b) do something threatening enough for you to justifiably shoot them, when threatened at gunpoint in the commission of a crime.

Fortunately I live in Texas, so I don't have to worry about what to do in that other 1% situation.

I have no idea what would be appropriate in that situation in, say, California.

Call the police?

Pilgrim
November 7, 2003, 12:28 PM
Suppose, just suppose, it WAS someone trying to steal my car and I pulled my gun on him and ordered him to stop and he refused and continued doing what he was doing.
I suppose you could position yourself so that he has to drive over you to escape, then blast him. It worked for that Pastor in Alaska.

Pilgrim

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 12:31 PM
Law still requires you to retreat. It would be kind of hard trying to explain why you were standing & shooting instead of running to your house for the phone.

grampster
November 7, 2003, 01:05 PM
Three S's.

:D :evil:

Voodoo
November 7, 2003, 01:08 PM
1) Introduce him to my dogs. If he's trespassing on my property, then chances are the first people he's going to meet are my VERY TERRITORIAL boxers! They would put a hurtin' on him big time.

2) Using your remote, set-off your car alarm. It "should" scare him off, or at least get him to stop. Also, most alarms have an ignition kill. If I set it off, he ain't going anywhere with my car.

3) Sick my wife on him! She can nag him off the premises! :D

MLH
November 7, 2003, 01:14 PM
Then make sure there's only one side to the story!:evil:

synoptic
November 7, 2003, 01:19 PM
In Texas you can shoot someone for engaging in criminal mischief at night. You can also get in the cars way and when he tries to run you over you can shoot him. If the car can't be reasonably replace (i.e. a classic, antique, etc...) you can shoot him. In the end he'd be shot. I'm a poor college student living in a town with no public transportation. If I lose my car I can't buy another and I wouldn't be able to get to class and work. In the end it is my car that I bought and paid for. He has no right to have it or take it. I value my car more than I value the life of the person trying to steal it.

longtom4570
November 7, 2003, 01:24 PM
Umm shouldn't you have all the same colored brass in one magazine:scrutiny: i mean really no sense of balance at all:evil: :D

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 01:44 PM
It was explained to me some years ago by a member of the Florida Highway Patrol the advantage of alternating ammo -- lite & fast with heavy & slow.

El Tejon
November 7, 2003, 01:48 PM
Alan, well, which is it--breaking in or stealing your car???:confused:

BIG difference.

spacemanspiff
November 7, 2003, 01:52 PM
well first i would have to say that unless there are three of them standing on your doorstep, theres no threat whatsoever. and then they would have to be trying to get me to drive them somewhere, but i wouldnt do it, i'd offer to make a phone call for them, but juan, jose and paco wouldnt know anyone to call.
so then i'd get my para p13 and spare 13 round magazine and jump online to go ask an online community what they would do.
which by that time the normal people would have lost interest and would have wandered off to do something worthwhile.
ya dig? :D

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 01:54 PM
El Tejon, you catch someone doing something illegal on your property ... stealing your lawn mower, trying to steal your car, attempting to pry open a window, whatever. You're both outside and after pointing the gun at him, he refuses to comply.

My understanding of the law is that your only option is to retreat inside and call the police because dealy force would not be justified unless he followed you in or attempted to come into your home.

HankL
November 7, 2003, 01:57 PM
I'll pitch in with Grampster on this one.

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 01:59 PM
So spacemanspiff, it appears that you know how to properly react in this sitaution and you're not interested in sharing that knowledge with others.

El Tejon
November 7, 2003, 02:04 PM
Alan, not only option, but best. "Those who enter into combat have already lost." Get a description and call Johnny Law.

In most jurisdictions one may use reasonable force, to the exclusion of deadly force, to recover to prevent property from being stolen. However, in some jurisdiction, the curtilage counts as your domicile. Check local listings.

spacemanspiff
November 7, 2003, 02:08 PM
i'm sorry, i just cant bring myself to take your scenarios seriously anymore. nothing personal, nor is this a personal attack on you...

burn me once, shame on you.
burn me again, shame on me... just trying to avoid shaming myself.
i bid you good day, sir.

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 02:14 PM
spacemanspiff, if you think about how to handle a given situation ahead of time and get input from other individuals who might be knowledgeable in that area or have similiar experience in a like scenario, chances are you will react correctly if something like that happens to you instead of having to make a major decision in a split-second or two. Wouldn't your agree?

That's the entire theme behind sharing what you know and learning what you don't.

Dr.Rob
November 7, 2003, 03:02 PM
Well since this was phrased hypotheticly....

Fud I'm not sure there is a good answer.

Even if you run naked from the bushes screaming like a banshee racking the action of a 12 guage over your head and the guy keeps calmly stealing your wheels?

Maybe he's someone you DON'T want to confront.

Maybe he's on some kind of major drug, or maybe he's some majorly bad man, who really doesn't have anything left to lose.

You still do.

Is the car insured? Think the cops can block him off at the end of the road before he can make it off the property?

Ever consider that even drawing your gun, without using it is "brandishing" or assault with a deadly weapon?

It's just a car.

If he was coming into your house, different matter altogether.

Suppose you could shoot out the tires of your OWN car to keep him from stealing it...

Just don't miss and hit him.

Oh and BTW that alternating ammo thing.. I think thats a BAD idea.

Wildalaska
November 7, 2003, 03:19 PM
Chances are that since you armed yourself and went OUTSIDE, theres a good chance you will be indicted if ANYHTING involving that gun happens....

Might not get convicted though

WildstayinhouseorcallcopsAlaska

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 03:23 PM
Good point, Wildalaska.

Werewolf
November 7, 2003, 03:32 PM
Alan Fud related that:
Law still requires you to retreat. It would be kind of hard trying to explain why you were standing & shooting instead of running to your house for the phone.

Not in Oklahoma. There is no duty to retreat - ever. That doesn't mean you shouldn't if you can and by doing so you could prevent a death or an escalation - it just means you have no legal duty to retreat in OK - unlike say MA where it is my understanding that one does have a lega duty to retreat.

Regarding protecting personal property - in OK the felony pointing a firearm law makes a specific exemption for protecting your own property with a firearm (but the law covers pointing not shooting). The deadly force law however does not. That creates a basic conflict that to the best of my knowledge has yet to be tested here.

The way I see it you can legally point your weapon at someone attempting an illegal act with your property (my attorney agrees but says it's stupid to do so - that's what insurance is for) but not legal to shoot him (again attorney agrees). So basically if the criminal flips you off you really can't do much about it other than use reasonable force to detain him.

Checkman
November 7, 2003, 03:38 PM
From the perspective of the police. It used to be okay to shoot a fleeing felon - in the back that it is. But in the mid-seventies ( I think) there was a court case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court called Tennesse vs. Gardner. A police officer shot and killed a teenager who was fleeing a house that he had just burged and said teenager was carrying property from that house. The Supreme court said that it was unjustified because the kid was running away and was not a threat. Eventually that case and others like it made it very clear that to shoot a cop has to be acting to stop a clear danger to the community.
Of course the cop has some exceptions because of their function in society. If an officer witnesses a drive by (casulties or not) the officer can pursue and fire at the car. On the other hand if the vehicle keeps driving after firing a few rounds off the owner can not run back into his home, get a gun and then run after thm shooting. Even here in Idaho the courts can be pretty strict when it comes to the interpetation of self-defense. Stealing property dosen't justify deadly force in the eyes of most judges or prosecutors. This is based on my training and experience. No doubt somebody has a differing opinion or experience.

Of course even if the home owner is justified in his or her's use of deadly force they can still be sued - just like cops. It's just a simple reality that we all need to live with.

Checkman
November 7, 2003, 03:41 PM
One more thing. You can point your weapon at the person. If they're committing a felony on your property there is nothing that says you can't be prepared for things going south. Just be able to articulate your reason for deadly force if it should come to that.

Delmar
November 7, 2003, 04:01 PM
While I realize that you shouldn't be blowing holes in tresspassers and such, but it seems so wrong to have someone making off with your property which you worked your skin to the bone for and the only thing left to do is call the police and wait for the insurance company to pay off, further taking up a lot more of your time away from the people you love and are responsible for.

Old Fuff
November 7, 2003, 04:11 PM
You could shoot out a tire.

That would have some effect on the thief's behavior. Nowhere is it written you can't shoot your own car. You could claim you had too because you were afraid he'd run over you. Pure self-defense. You prevented him from using the car as a weapon of deadly force.

Of course in rural Arizona you wouldn't have to go to all that trouble ......

Master Blaster
November 7, 2003, 04:13 PM
Get a can of gasoline douse the suspect who is ignoring you and offer him a light.

Hook up the hose, and hose him off with water.

Yell: look up in the sky its a bird its a plane, its Little green men from mars!!!

Offer him a beer.

Ask him if he wants the keys to the car.

Call the police.

2nd Amendment
November 7, 2003, 04:48 PM
As I've said before, directly from the mouthes of Indiana State Troopers: "Shoot him. Make sure your side is the only side told. We'll take care of the rest."

The only problem with that dribble of wisdom is making sure one of those cops works the scene...

BluesBear
November 7, 2003, 05:10 PM
OH GREAT,

Another one of Fud's what if, fairy tales, he dreams up so he can post results on his website. :rolleyes: :scrutiny: :rolleyes:

Well at least this one wasn't "supposed" to be happening in real time. :cuss:

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 05:15 PM
BluesBear, my website hasn't been updated in over two years. Don't have the time for it any more. Care to dispute that? And if you have the answers on how to handle yourself in this situation, why don't you share that with others who might not be as experienced as you?

BluesBear
November 7, 2003, 05:33 PM
:barf:

For those who didn't see this stupid STUNT ! (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42613)

BHPshooter
November 7, 2003, 05:41 PM
Now we're touching on one of my biggest pet peeves about modern laws -- "punish the property owner, not the criminal!"

A lot of people will say, "It's only a car," or "It's only a $6,000 plasma TV," but let me be frank: I'm not a rich guy by any stretch of the word. Everything I have I've worked for -- and I work hard. So now I'm supposed to just let it go if a scumbag comes a-knockin'? Anybody else see a problem with this? Instead of the time-old "bad monkey, no banana," theory, modern society has replaced it with "let the bad monkey take the whole bunch. Don't get in his way."

What if some scumbag steals my '69 Chevy beater? "Well, it's just a car." WRONG. If I lose my car, I'm SCREWED. I don't have money to buy another car. I don't have another car to take me the 15 miles to work. Busses don't run to work, and my town doesn't have taxis, either. I would be quite fully ruined.

Now, look back at the old days, when criminals were punished for trying to take what isn't theirs. Theft was discouraged. Theft OUGHT to be a harzardous career. I sure wish stealing "horses" was still a "hangin' offense"!

Wes

RustyHammer
November 7, 2003, 05:52 PM
Might be a good time to have an AR-15 with a few tracers on top of the stack .... couple of those puppies in his direction would probably move him along rather nicely.

If not, he's got other "problems" .... :scrutiny:

Smoke
November 7, 2003, 06:18 PM
Dorrin79:
Fortunately I live in Texas, so I don't have to worry about what to do in that other 1% situation

and,

synoptic:In Texas you can shoot someone for engaging in criminal mischief at night.

Y'all really want to bet your freedom on that?

I wouldn't advise it. It's a property crime. Let them take it, call the cops. I don't want to have to live with the fact I killed someone over a '89 Buick (and no, it makes no difference if it's an "04 Ferrari). Don't think the courts would let you off, even if the law says you can, which is arguable as well.

SMoke

FireInTheHole
November 7, 2003, 06:37 PM
Weeeell you could always shoot out one of the tires on your car....

Cosmoline
November 7, 2003, 06:43 PM
If I could see the thief clearly and had a carbine or rifle, I would not hesitate to blow out the tires of my car. It's mine, after all.

Rogelio
November 7, 2003, 06:44 PM
well..I´m not big into laws, but I would do the following:

ME: Hey you son of a bit$#, get the f&%ck away from my car!
Him: -nothing-
Me: -shoot pepper spray to piss him off-

then I have 2 choices: Either he falls screaming in pain and I can reduce him, or he attacks me, and then my gun enters the equation...he is attacking me.

Maybe a clever lawyer can say that I attacked him first, but I was defending my property with non letal force (oc spray), and when the guy came right to me in order to attack me "I thought my liofe was endangered because he was so drugged that the OC had no effect on him"

Well, it is just a thought!

ChickenHawk
November 7, 2003, 07:25 PM
Is this thread locked, yet? :evil:

Art Eatman
November 7, 2003, 08:42 PM
FUD, would it not have been a whole bunch easier just to go ask your friendly local law enforcement? They're s'posed to know this stuff. Part of the job is to answer this sort of question.

I know they'll love to have you make clear that you want to obey the law, whatever it may be.

:), Art

DMK
November 7, 2003, 08:43 PM
Legality aside, Let's say you go out there, draw your S&W and put three .40 slugs through your windshield into the guys head. What kind of mess do you think that's going to make inside your car? Have you ever seen the inside of a car after a serious car accident? Cleaning up all the blood, brains and other mess is probably going to cost a lot more than the deductable on your insurance.

Boats
November 7, 2003, 09:03 PM
It was explained to me some years ago by a member of the Florida Highway Patrol the advantage of alternating ammo -- lite & fast with heavy & slow.

Guaranteed to do one thing--screw your POA/POI from one type to the next.:rolleyes:

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 09:04 PM
Art, when I was getting my PA CCW, I spoke with the Under Sheriff and inquired about the gun laws (i.e., can you carry in a school, in a church, in a place that sells alcohol, etc.), I was told (and this is a direct quote), to use common sense and I won't have any problems.

It has been my experience that 'common sense' is not so common. Which is why I ask these questions -- better to consider all of the possibilities ahead of time with input from others who may be more knowledgeable in these areas than to have to make those decisions on your own in a split second.

Standing Wolf
November 7, 2003, 09:08 PM
I have a hunch a couple rounds in the ground would ward off evil.

Alan Fud
November 7, 2003, 09:10 PM
Boats, you may have a valid point but I saw first hand what happens when you fire two closely spaced lite & fast rounds into a gelatin [sp] block; and two closely spaced heavy & slow rounds into a gelatin [sp] block; and one lite & fast round and one heavy & slow round into a gelatin [sp] block. You get more damage from the one lite & fast round and one heavy & slow round than from either the two lite & fast rounds or the two heavy & slow rounds.

Try it yourself, if you wish.

Art Eatman
November 7, 2003, 09:39 PM
FUD, as a last resort, go to the DA. If that's no help, build a garage.

Art

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